One Scenario, Three Responses

[Pete Vecchi]

This is hypothetical, so I will use a hypothetical, ficticious need.

A local congregation is in need of 20 widgets. Each widget costs $10. The church operating fund has room in the budget for widgets, since widgets are something commonly used by the church, and which are routinely purchased by the for church use.

Person A says, "I'd like to help the congeration with this--here's $100 in my offering envelope designated toward the purchase of widgets."

Person B says, "I work near a widget distribution center. I'd like to help out by purchasing the 20 widgets, but I am not in the financial position to contribute to the purchase. I'll be happy to pick up the widgets. I can pay for them out of pocket, but I'll need the church to reimburse me for my expense." The church agrees, so this person purchases the widgets, turns in the expense receipt, and is reimbursed $200 by the church.

Soon, the church relizes that it needs 10 more widgets. Person C says, "I normally get paid twice a month, and I tithe on my income. My tithe goes at least in part to maintain the current operating buget of the church. Since widgets are part of that budget, I'm going to purchase 10 widgets and give them to the church. I'm not going to turn in an expense receipt, but I'll deduct the $100 I paid for the widgets from my next tithe check. I'd also like a receipt from the church acknowledging the donation of the widgets at a value of $100 so I can claim it as a charitable contribution on my taxes."

For Person A, the church shows a $100 contribution made, designated for widgets. This amount is reflected on Person A's year-end charitable contribution statement, and the church includes this financial contribution as income in its year-end report to the denomination.

For Person B, the church shows a $200 expense for widgets. The church shows this $200 expense for widgets as part of the church operating expenses in its year-end report to the denomination.

For Person C, the church gives a receipt showing a charitable donation valued at $100. However, since this was not a financial gift and the church spent no money, there is nothing to be reported as expense or income in the church's year-end report to the denomination. At the end of the church year, the church's budgets, which are figured on the church's money paid out during the church year (less certain exlusions of which widgets are not), are lower. For this past church year on our district, budgets were figured as 15% to WEF, 7% to the regional college/university, 4 % for Pensions and Benefits, and 8.6% to the district budget.

Given those figures, in essence, Person C's method of contribution lowered the congregation's budget payments by $34.60.

Am I missing something here?

[Barb Bouldrey]

Pete,

What do you think you are missing?

The only thing I see here is that a person should not retain part or all of their tithe and purchase things for the church.

Person C should have purchased these "widgets" and donated them to the church. Period. That person had no right to hold back tithe to purchase them.

The tithe is the Lord's. It should be given to the church for the church to decided how to use.

A lady at my mother-in-law's church gave the money for a new furance. But then she withheld her tithe until her tithe equalled the cost of the furnace.

Neither Person C or this lady did the church any favor...except it helped lower the budgets.

I would see nothing wrong with Person D buying the widgets and donating them to the church...out of the goodness of his/her heart. Then the cost is not income or expenditures for the church reports.

Person C could have donated the widgets in memory of someone and you could have put an In Memory of sticker on each widgets. LOL.

Barb

[Wilson L. Deaton]

Two things....

1) Churches should not attribute financial value to donated items but rather itemize the items. The actual value is between the donor and the IRS to agree to.

2) Concering WEF, etc. If it just happened to work out that way for this one shot deal, fine. To begin using that as a strategy (telling members to pay their tithe in "stuff" rather than money) to reduce WEF would be wrong.

Wilson

[Pete Vecchi]

Two things....

1) Churches should not attribute financial value to donated items but rather itemize the items. The actual value is between the donor and the IRS to agree to.

Wilson

So, just for my personal clarification and edification, if the receipt the person was given at the distribution center showed $100, the person who purchased the widgets gets no financial receipt from the church showing a value but only that the items were donated. Then the donor keeps the receipt and has it to show value on tax returns and/or for the IRS in case of an audit. Do I have that correct?

[Pete Vecchi]

Person C should have purchased these "widgets" and donated them to the church. Period. That person had no right to hold back tithe to purchase them.

The tithe is the Lord's. It should be given to the church for the church to decided how to use.

Barb

So.....

Say Person C is the church treasurer or another board member who knows the church financial system and knows that the church routinely purchases widgets and pays for them out of the general operating budget. Person C knows that the tithes brought in go to the general operations of the church, including buying widgets.

If this person knows that money in the general operating budget would be used to buy widgets, and knows that by buying widgets for the church that much would not have to be paid out of the church's operating budget, would it be wrong to designate the widgets as part of a tithe? Can tithes only be financial?

Let's see, We've gone through Person D who donated the widgets out of the goodness of his/her own heart, so let's go to Person E.

Person E is in the widget-making business. Now the widget-making business is not very profitable, so the person isn't well-off financially. But Person E can give widgets, so he/she does so AS his/her tithe.

Didn't Jesus say something about Pharisees giving a tenth of their mint, rue, and cummin, and tell them they shouldn't neglect to do that?

This is all very interesting to me.

[Gary Swartzlander]

So, just for my personal clarification and edification, if the receipt the person was given at the distribution center showed $100, the person who purchased the widgets gets no financial receipt from the church showing a value but only that the items were donated. Then the donor keeps the receipt and has it to show value on tax returns and/or for the IRS in case of an audit. Do I have that correct?


That is correct. That is the way it works with any non-financial contribution to any non-profit.

If you donate clothing to a homeless shelter, they cannot give you a receipt with a value on it.

[Paul Whitaker]

Two things....

1) Churches should not attribute financial value to donated items but rather itemize the items. The actual value is between the donor and the IRS to agree to.

Wilson

This jarred memories of the church in Siteki, Swaziland. When we first went there in 1970 we wondered why all of the 'agricultural items' were in front of the pulpit - on the pulpit side of the altar.

The people had brought their tithes and offerings in the form of vegetables.

I think that the pastor was given what he could use and then others paid money for the items they took - with the monies being deposited in the tithe account. We did NOT count the money we paid for the vegetables as tithe even though the money went into the tithe account.

I realize this is different to what you are talking about but I thought you might be interested.

[Dennis M. Scott]

Your question illustrates that we have unfortunately begun considering the tax and allocation affects that we have also begun to lose the joy of giving. Sometimes we even take such a legalistic position on tithing that we lose the joy in that.

In college days, I had two friends who tithed to the point of splitting pennies. One week they would put in the extra half a penny, and the next week they would keep it back. I thought that was funny. Today, one of them is a district superintendent, and the other is a Nazarene University Professor of Business. See, the Lord does hand out His punishment.

[Dave McClung]

It bothers me to see the extent that "Fair Share" Allocations are considered just like a tax. When I was growing up, the "budgets" (I still prefer that term) were presented as the way the local church helped others. It was often stressed by church leaders that payment was "voluntary."

A church doesn't have to play games with the numbers to avoid paying their fair share. All they have to do is not pay. Nothing really bad happens to a church that doesn't pay its fair share except that they feel guilty about not doing their share.

Dave

[Barb Bouldrey]

Gary,

Here in Missouri...here in Sikeston...we have a Women's Shelter. Our ladies ministry collects items for the Women's Shelter every other month. When they send us a thank you letter it always includes a value amount for our donation to use when filing taxes. Of course, our church does not file taxes, but that is their usual form.

My friend in N. Carolina cleans out her closets annually and takes them to the GoodWill. She estimates the yard sale value of what she donates and they give her a receipt for that amount to use when she files her taxes.

There is nothing wrong with a person or business donating something to a church and asking for a donation receipt for its value so that person can deduct it when itemizing their tax deduction.

When a person donates something to a church and asks for a contribution receipt it is for that person's personal taxes. It is not income to the church or expenditures for the church.

And, Pete, if a church treasurer or board member buys something for the church that is normally in the budget of that church, he should be reimbursed for it....not count his purchase as part of his tithe. What right does he have to decide how the money of the church..the tithe...should be spent?

Tithe does not have to be money. We had a family in one of our pastorates that tithed on their garden every year. If she canned 100 cans of corn, she brought 10 to the pastor. Of course, they tithed their money, also, and never asked for a receipt for their produce tithe.

Another lady in that same church had an unsaved husband. He would not give her any money for the church but would allow her to buy an extra sack of groceries each month and bring them to the parsonage. She will never know how much that meant to a parsonage family that had a toddler and was living on $125 a week.

I think it is being very cheap to give something to the church and then deduct its value from the money tithe. I do not think it is very honest.

The Bible speaks of tithes and offerings. Why cannot someone who loves their church spend $100 on something for the church and just donate it with no strings attached...no personal gain or recognition?

The lady who paid for the new church furnance broadcast how generous she was...she wanted personal recognition for being so wonderful...but she was just using her tithe.

If everyone used their tithe the way they wanted to, how would the church meets it regular bills?

Barb

[Pete Vecchi]

A church doesn't have to play games with the numbers to avoid paying their fair share. All they have to do is not pay. Nothing really bad happens to a church that doesn't pay its fair share except that they feel guilty about not doing their share.

Dave

I think that there are ramifications to not paying budgets/fair share. I know that the church I pastor has paid budgets in full and more for many years since before I arrived here as pastor. I've also been a member of congregations that didn't pay in full. Those churches were prohibited from hiring additional staff.

Just as a sidebar, I did NOT start this thread with the intent being about finding a way to avoid budgets/fair share. The entire REAL story that sparked my "widget" example was seeing how at times churches receive a check from someone as that person faithfully tithes, while that same person can often be the appointed "go-fer" who picks up and purchases supplies the church needs, but who can't afford to just donate them. Sometimes on the same day a person such as that gives a tithe check to the church, that same person receives a check from the church for nearly the same amount to cover reimbursement for something he/she bought for the church.

My thought was that it seems as though we can often complicate matters simply because we want to account for every dime.

[Gary Swartzlander]

Gary,

Here in Missouri...here in Sikeston...we have a Women's Shelter. Our ladies ministry collects items for the Women's Shelter every other month. When they send us a thank you letter it always includes a value amount for our donation to use when filing taxes. Of course, our church does not file taxes, but that is their usual form.

My friend in N. Carolina cleans out her closets annually and takes them to the GoodWill. She estimates the yard sale value of what she donates and they give her a receipt for that amount to use when she files her taxes.

Barb

I don't question your statment as such, but my experience in non-profits say otherwise.

The website "Gateway to Giving", a missouri corporation , http://www.gatewaytogiving.org/ackcharitable.asp
includes the following, I know this is the case in Michigan.

Noncash Gifts

What happens when the donor makes a gift of property - office equipment or furniture, stock and bonds, real estate, or works of art? The rules that govern these donations are complicated, and organizations should avoid giving their donors tax advice.

The acknowledgement or receipt must accurately describe the gift in kind but no monetary amount should be mentioned. It is the donor's responsibility to determine the fair market value.

For details, consult IRS Publication 526 Charitable Contributions and IRS Publication 561 Determining the Value of Donated Property (www.irs.ustreas.gov).

[Anne and Dwayne Hood]

Here I am again. Dwayne and I have learned that when a church or an individual, or a family learn to pay their fair shair, (above their tithe) God sends extra blessings on that person, family, and church.
Aren't we supposed to pay tithe and offerings?

[Pete Vecchi]

I don't question your statment as such, but my experience in non-profits say otherwise.

The website "Gateway to Giving", a missouri corporation , http://www.gatewaytogiving.org/ackcharitable.asp
includes the following, I know this is the case in Michigan.

Noncash Gifts

What happens when the donor makes a gift of property - office equipment or furniture, stock and bonds, real estate, or works of art? The rules that govern these donations are complicated, and organizations should avoid giving their donors tax advice.

The acknowledgement or receipt must accurately describe the gift in kind but no monetary amount should be mentioned. It is the donor's responsibility to determine the fair market value.

For details, consult IRS Publication 526 Charitable Contributions and IRS Publication 561 Determining the Value of Donated Property (www.irs.ustreas.gov).


I am aware that there was a new IRS regulation that went into effect as of (I think) this past August where any non-cash contribution made has to be appraised in order for it to be claimed on taxes. As I understand it, this is not the responsibility of the organization receiving the gift, but of the person donating it. It's supposed to keep people from donating basically worthless items and receiving a tax break on them.

Hmmmmm, I wonder if anyone can tell me what a widget is really worth... :-)

[Billie Goodson]

I think from reading much of this that many of the exceptions that people take are to the terms "tithe" and "donation." Someone else pointed it out -- if I ask for a receipt for tax purposes, it is fully within my moral/spiritual/ethical/etc boundaries to claim it as a charitable contribution. The issue is what is the effect of my claiming it as "tithe".

To further throw this into array -- I was the treasurer of a church -- long, long ago, in a land far away. One member knew of a critical need in the church for a certain amount of money. This amount was needed upfront at one time, to settle a financial responsibility of the church. This financial responsibility would normally have been met through the budget process -- but, the operating account did not have sufficient funds. This person made a lump sum contribution and asked to have the amount credited as a regular tithe -- in small increments each week, just like they always tithed. This was known only by the person doing it, and myself. Was this request "right". We can chase the rabbits of "this should have gone to the pastor" if we want, but, the central question is -- was this a "right" request. (They did not ask me to conceal it from the Pastor or anyone else). THoughts?

[Pete Vecchi]

One member knew of a critical need in the church for a certain amount of money. This amount was needed upfront at one time, to settle a financial responsibility of the church. This financial responsibility would normally have been met through the budget process -- but, the operating account did not have sufficient funds. This person made a lump sum contribution and asked to have the amount credited as a regular tithe -- in small increments each week, just like they always tithed. This was known only by the person doing it, and myself. Was this request "right". We can chase the rabbits of "this should have gone to the pastor" if we want, but, the central question is -- was this a "right" request. (They did not ask me to conceal it from the Pastor or anyone else). THoughts?


Personally, I think it was perfectly acceptable.

[Dennis M. Scott]

It's always a helpful experience for people to search the scriptures to see what "the tithe" was, where it came from, who it came from, where it went, what it was used for, by whom, etc., etc. Once that is done, then people come through with a thought about how the church and the church's practices are progressive, and change through the centuries, so that the tithe would be used for different things today, and likely our understanding will be different today, as well. In the COTN, the tithe has pretty widely been seen as the primary method of fund raising for ongoing ministries, with different fund raising possibilities for other causes. It's a good Biblical model, but not the only one. A lot of what I have heard over the years about tithing (which by the way, is not a common verb in the Bible) may have been good thinking and even appropriate, but not in keeping with Biblical examples.

As to the theoretical, since we don't know what a widget is, we are able to talk objectively about them. In this part of the country, had you said that person could get a thousand gallons of heating oil, it might have been a little more subjective. It's peculiar that we see certain things differently. A thousand gallons of heating oil would likely be seen differently than a year's worth of snowplow service, or grass mowing. Most likely when we are painting SS classrooms, we would like a professional painter to donate his time, but not count it as his tithe. Probably if a person is a banker, we want cold, hard cash!

[Marsha Lynn]

If everyone used their tithe the way they wanted to, how would the church meets it regular bills?

But, Barb, Pete's example includes the statement that the person buying widgets with their tithe money and giving them to the church knows that the church would buy widgets anyway. Even if you stand firm in not designating tithe money for a specific purpose because it circumvents the budget process of the church, I don't understand how giving newly-purchased goods that the church would have purchased itself rather than cash is giving less. (I don't do it myself, but I have no problem with it other than that it complicates documenting the giving.)

What if my employer paid me by handing me a pile of Disney stock at the end of every week. If I took 1 out of every 10 stock papers and gave it to the church, wouldn't I be tithing? Why do I have to convert my income into cash?

By the way, even if 95% of non-profit organizations are not in compliance with IRS regulations, the regulations don't change. Your examples are simply instances where organizations are not in compliance. The regulations are widely available and very clear.

Marsha

[Carol Kane]

:basic03 Dave, the consequences are not necessarily for the church that does not pay its "budgets or fair share or whatever you want to call it" as much as there are consequences for the Pastor/Leader. Because in the eyes of many DS's this is a "leadership failure" and doesn't KC keep records on every pastor and the years their congregations did or did not pay budgets?

[Wilson L. Deaton]

So, just for my personal clarification and edification, if the receipt the person was given at the distribution center showed $100, the person who purchased the widgets gets no financial receipt from the church showing a value but only that the items were donated. Then the donor keeps the receipt and has it to show value on tax returns and/or for the IRS in case of an audit. Do I have that correct?

Yes.

The IRS doesn't want the recipients determining the value.... Otherwise, people will want to cheat on setting prices. "Here pastor, let me donate this old piano. I think it's worth $1,000."

I learned about this law at a former church when I launched a Nazarene Compassionate Center that included a second-hand store.

Wilson

[Barb Bouldrey]

I looked at the link Gary posted. It says:
"Acknowledgments should state the dollar amount of the gift and a statement - those magic words - that no goods or services were provided.
Example: For your tax records, please be informed that the entire amount of your $100 gift represents a charitable contribution since no goods or services were provided in return for this donation. "

I looked again at the statement from the Women's Shelter. They did not put an amount on their standard form to value our latest contribution of hats, gloves and slippers. I guess that was left for us to fill in, but since we are a tax exempt organization, we would not be filling it in. When we bought them 12 brand new pillows that had the tags still on them, our thank you letter had the amount paid for those pillows on the form. The receipt had been left in the bag by accident.

Gary mentioned that the donor had to set the value. That IS what I said my friend does in North Carolina at the Good Will store. She sets the amount and they acknowledge that amount on their receipt letter to her.

So I do not see where either organization is breaking any IRS rules. Good Will or Women's Shelter.

And Billie, I see your example of a church member giving their tithe in advance to meet an immediate need of the church. I have no problem with that. It is wonderful that they had it to give and gave it.

And Marsha, I asked, "what if a most people designated their tithe or gave items to the church instead of paying thier tithe?" (something like that) How would a church pay the light bill and the pastor's salary if people gave more "stuff" than money? Using the example of the widget....a church can do without a widget much easier than doing without the lights and heat.

Maybe a church needs a new piano, but maybe they need the money spent on a new piano by an individual MORE for the basic needs of the church.

I just do not think a person has a right to designate what their tithe is used for by buying things without board permission in place of giving their tithes in the offering.

If someone does not have the cash to use for tithe and gives other things or services, that is another question...like the lady who brought us groceries.

But if you tithe...it belongs to the Lord, not you.

Barb

[Gary Swartzlander]

I looked at the link Gary posted. It says:
"Acknowledgments should state the dollar amount of the gift and a statement - those magic words - that no goods or services were provided.
Example: For your tax records, please be informed that the entire amount of your $100 gift represents a charitable contribution since no goods or services were provided in return for this donation. "

I looked again at the statement from the Women's Shelter. They did not put an amount on their standard form to value our latest contribution of hats, gloves and slippers. I guess that was left for us to fill in, but since we are a tax exempt organization, we would not be filling it in. When we bought them 12 brand new pillows that had the tags still on them, our thank you letter had the amount paid for those pillows on the form. The receipt had been left in the bag by accident.

Gary mentioned that the donor had to set the value. That IS what I said my friend does in North Carolina at the Good Will store. She sets the amount and they acknowledge that amount on their receipt letter to her.

So I do not see where either organization is breaking any IRS rules. Good Will or Women's Shelter.

Barb

You are correct on both counts. The important distinction when a non-profit is issuing a receipt is that between a cash contribution and a non-cash contribution. When cash is given a cash receipt noting the amount of the contribution is given.

Anyways, I think we've answered Pete's question regarding this.

[Wilson L. Deaton]

But if you tithe...it belongs to the Lord, not you.

As much as we teach it, and need it, one is hard-pressed to show Biblically that the local church as we know it, is God's exclusive agent for handling his tithes....

Wilson

[Dennis M. Scott]

As much as we teach it, and need it, one is hard-pressed to show Biblically that the local church as we know it, is God's exclusive agent for handling his tithes....

Wilson

Wilson, please don't bring this "Biblical standard" thing into it. :basic04

[Laurie Florence]

Pete,

What do you think you are missing?

The only thing I see here is that a person should not retain part or all of their tithe and purchase things for the church.

Person C should have purchased these "widgets" and donated them to the church. Period. That person had no right to hold back tithe to purchase them.

The tithe is the Lord's. It should be given to the church for the church to decided how to use.

A lady at my mother-in-law's church gave the money for a new furance. But then she withheld her tithe until her tithe equalled the cost of the furnace.

Neither Person C or this lady did the church any favor...except it helped lower the budgets.

I would see nothing wrong with Person D buying the widgets and donating them to the church...out of the goodness of his/her heart. Then the cost is not income or expenditures for the church reports.

Person C could have donated the widgets in memory of someone and you could have put an In Memory of sticker on each widgets. LOL.

Barb

When considering how much to give to your church, the question should not be "how much am I obligated to give". The question should be "how much can I give". It is sad when someone withholds their tithe - even if it is to pay for a piece of equipment for the church. People should just give in faith, and the church should accept the money in faith. Tax receipts and budgets, as lovely as they are, should take a backseat to faithfulness to God.

[Donna Adams]

Dave, nothing does happen to a church who does not pay his budgets..but there is a black cloud that is put over that pastor. When a pastor tries to move one of the first questions asked is do you pay your budgets? A pastor can only do so much to get them paid..it's not all his fault. Too many churches see budgets as voluntary, knowing nothing will happen to us if we dont pay. I personally do not like that.

[Cindi Hammons]

I am aware that there was a new IRS regulation that went into effect as of (I think) this past August where any non-cash contribution made has to be appraised in order for it to be claimed on taxes.

Pete,

We had our taxes done by professionals last week. We had purchased a computer for the church. We received a letter from the church thanking us for the purchase. No amount was attached. The tax preparer asked us to estimate the cost. Of course, we knew the exact amount, but that didn't matter to the preparer. She just needed our estimate...not an estimate from the church.

[Pete Vecchi]

We had our taxes done by professionals last week. We had purchased a computer for the church. We received a letter from the church thanking us for the purchase. No amount was attached. The tax preparer asked us to estimate the cost. Of course, we knew the exact amount, but that didn't matter to the preparer. She just needed our estimate...not an estimate from the church.

I brought my information to a tax attorney on February 20th, and he was going to get the taxes figured out and call me when they were done (still haven't heard anything, and Tuesday will have been 2 weeks since I gave him all the info). Anyway, I digress...

On their website, they have a downloadable tax organizer. Here is what it says on one of the pages:

***New as of August 17, 2006***
CONTRIBUTIONS: Cash requires a receipt;
tangible property requires an appraisal

[Gerald Spear]

Pete,

I think the answer to your original post is to change sizes of widgets, then you will use less widgets and even break the habit altogether, then who pays for the widget will not be a problem.

[John Kennedy]

Sitting here reading these posts, it appears there are two discussions going on - taxes and budgets and church finance. A few observations:

- Donations of goods rather than cash are charitable contributions. As a tax
preparer, for what sometimes seems like too long, I have generally used a rule of thumb of not exceeding $600.00 for 'thrift shop type items (Goodwill, Salvation Army, etc.). When I talk shop and tell 'war stories' with other people in the business, that seems to be a fairly universal practice.

If there was a donation of a single item exceeding that, we generally settled on a 'reasonable and prudent' estimate of value. These items have included everything from pianos to automobiles. The recipient organization has never stated the value. Obviously the higher the amount taken, the greater the benefit of securing an appraisal.

At the risk of calling down the wrath of the 'audit gods' i can state that such contribution deductions have never been challenged. In fact, the only contribution deduction challenge by the IRS in my experience, was with a Seventh Day Adventist who, by the way, had ironclad documentation.

In fact, in my practice, the overwhelming majority of 'audits' have been 'income related' (failure to report, under-reporting, etc) rather than 'deduction related'. The reporting problems generally stem from the client's failing to keep track of w-2's and 1099's and failing to keep records relating to how much they paid for stocks bought and sold.

I would have trouble remembering the last audit on deductions, of any kind, taken by a client, whereas I have handled several inquiries related to income in the last few months.

Having grown up in a Nazarene parsonage there are a number of observations I could make about the impact of budgets on the minister and his/her ministry. Having departed amicably a number of years ago, I will graciously refrain therefrom, except to note that the smaller the congregatin the higher the percentage of overhead (utilities, pastoral compensation, etc.).

The 'overhead' expenses (what it costs to keep the doors open and someone in the pulpit and parsonage) for a congregation of 25 is not significantly less than that for one of 75 or 100. And while people will give sacrificially, the ability to give (economic profile of the congregation( cannot simply be dismissed out of hand.

The last few years have seen the consolidation of a number of districts. As to whether this trend will gravitate on down to the local church level is an interesting question. Years ago in Texas there was a small city with two struggling churches of the same denomination. It would have seemed prudent to have consolidated them. On the other hand, maybe the struggling was the reason for their being two churches.

[Wanda Van Winkle]

As much as we teach it, and need it, one is hard-pressed to show Biblically that the local church as we know it, is God's exclusive agent for handling his tithes....

Wilson


You know, Wilson, you can't just throw in this statement without explanation. For the indoctrinated of us who have not biblically, historically and thoroughly researched tithing, it might be interesting to know who else, then, might be agents for handling the tithes.

Do more educated and studied pastors/preachers who know the deep dark secrets not indoctrinated preach or teach tithing less frequently or as more of a suggestion rather than a requirement?

[Gina Stevenson]

Your question illustrates that we have unfortunately begun considering the tax and allocation affects that we have also begun to lose the joy of giving. Sometimes we even take such a legalistic position on tithing that we lose the joy in that.

In college days, I had two friends who tithed to the point of splitting pennies. One week they would put in the extra half a penny, and the next week they would keep it back. I thought that was funny. Today, one of them is a district superintendent, and the other is a Nazarene University Professor of Business. See, the Lord does hand out His punishment.

This reminded me of something now funny, Dennis ... how when at ONC/U I walked into the laundry room one day inbetween cycles/loads/whatever, and found a now-Naz missionary "borrowing/stealing" my laundry soap into a couple of washers. ;) Now, a couple of loads of soap isn't much, but to a college kid, it just seemed "not right." So I just looked at him, said nothing but a low, "hmmm" looking at him with a smile, if I recall ... he said nothing; probably felt sheepish ... he didn't know whose it was until I walked in, as he'd just gotten there while I was checking mail or whatever and out of the laundry room for a few minutes. God wanted him caught, methinks ... probably kept him from doing that with something bigger later somewhere, huh? ;)

[Paul Whitaker]

Dave, nothing does happen to a church who does not pay his budgets..but there is a black cloud that is put over that pastor. When a pastor tries to move one of the first questions asked is do you pay your budgets? A pastor can only do so much to get them paid..it's not all his fault. Too many churches see budgets as voluntary, knowing nothing will happen to us if we don't pay. I personally do not like that.

This is very true! A pastor was talking to his DS concerning a desire to move to another church. The DS responded that he could not recommend him to another church because his church had not paid its budget. That's wrong in my books.

[Billy Cox]

Ideally the church's annual 'Fair Share' is marketed as a way for a local church to participate in the global work of the Church of the Nazarene, hence the new name 'World Evangelism Fund.'

However, anybody who is paying attention knows that world evangelism is only one piece of a much bigger pie. It's just the easiest slice to sell at the annual Faith Promise convention.

Other non-profits trumpet the very low percentage of contributions that goes to 'administration' (used as a dirty word). It seems that a big part of Nazarene Headquarters' operational mission IS administration, which makes marketing a little dicey.

I agree that WEF and other apportionments should not be viewed as a tax, but that seems to be a marketing issue more than anything else.

[Anne and Dwayne Hood]

Billy, when we give to Alabaster, Radio Offering, etc. no operating expenses are taken out. When we give to 10% Specials there is nothing taken out for operating expenses.

[Paul Whitaker]

A former pastor, district superintendent and wonderful friend related to me a cute story from his life.

He backslid (before he was a pastor) but he knew he would get back to the Lord at some time so he kept tithing because he didn't want to have to pay back tithe on the time he was AWOL!!

[Barb Bouldrey]

80% of the World Evangelism goes to the support of missionaries. 20% of the WEF goes to administration costs for the denomination. This includes the support of our 6 General Superintendents. Actually, when you support our Generals and headquarters you are also supporting world missions because with out leadership we would have no world missions program.

100% given to Compassionate Ministries, Alabaster, LINKs, Cash Christmas, Memorial Roll, DSA, Work & Witness materials, etc, goes to what it is given to support.

Barb

[Paul Whitaker]

Is there a set percentage which goes to the support of the local church? or is it up to the individual churches? A few churches have mammoth staff budgets.

Maybe I'm getting into Faith Promise here. Maybe mixing beans with rice.

[Gary Swartzlander]

Is there a set percentage which goes to the support of the local church? or is it up to the individual churches? A few churches have mammoth staff budgets.

Maybe I'm getting into Faith Promise here. Maybe mixing beans with rice.

I think you are confusing the issues. None of the WEF or EIF's (Eternal Investment Funds as our district has tagged them) comes back to the church as cash. The value and extent that it comes back in other ways is probably for another discussion.

Churches with mammoth staffs as you say, are actually penalized with larger budget amounts because the cost of the staff is figured into the bottom line on which budgets are calculated. A church can build a large building which may set unused and have it actually help lower budget calculations, but a church which hires staff to accomodate growth and the work in the community pays higher budgets. Go figure?

[Carol Kane]

Donna and Paul, I agree with you both. I posted a similar statement early on in this thread about this problem. It is not the Pastors fault a church did not pay their budgets, but unfortunately DS's view it as a Leardership failure. Which comes into play when a Pastor starts to look for aother church in which to minister. The DS can pull the record in Kansas City and see what churches that the Pastor led that did or did not pay their budgets. I know church is a business but honestly where do we draw the line into the spiritual? Can someone answer me that? Just reading some of the responses here gives me the "wee willies", have we gotten so caught up in numbers and money that we have lost sight of what it truly means to minister? perhaps we are "hair splitting"? Just my HO:rolleyes:

[Billie Goodson]

On another note regarding Budgets -- Central Florida several years ago under the leadership of DS Larry Dennis enacted a "Fair Share" giving plan for the District Budgets.

Under this plan, churches pay 10% of T&O to the District and if that is done faithfully, then all District Budgets are considered paid in full. This excludes WEF and other "pass-through" monies. The 10% was based on the Numbers 18:26 tithing reference. I also believe that Faith Promise is excluded. Hard to argue that biblical standard of the 10%, and certainly appears less "money focused" than bean counting that is done for District Budgets.

I may not have the exact details of the "Fair Share" plan, but that is what I recall from the discussion several years ago when it was adopted. I think even Trevecca accepted the plan -- the Trevecca budget from the District level is paid through a calculated figure of what the district recieves. It would be interesting to see how much the giving has improved under this simple plan. (I am assuming it has improved, otherwise, I am convinced that the powers that be would have killed the plan by now if it was not successful.) I know from a mental standpoint it is far easier to just figure out 10% of each week/month instead of looking at the figure for the other areas and trying to meet them at some point in the future. When you see that line that says "District Item 1 $25,000" -- it seems scary to try to figure out when you will come up with that money. I know when I was a treasurer for that very short period, I really felt threatened when I looked at those District/General budget amounts.