What size do you want your church to be?

[Jim Monck]

I am convensed most of our churches are the size the people of that church want it to be. What size do you want yours to be?

There are other factors but this most likely is the strongest.

[Joanne Vergin]

I am sure you are right. I go to a medium sized church. I guess I could go to a larger church but it is 30 minutes away. I am a little closer to a small church and chose not to go there either.

[Barb Bouldrey]

It seems that no matter what we do, no matter what programs we initiate, no matter how much we pray, invite, plan...we just cannot grow.

If you took a show of hands this morning and ask "how many of you were attending here 5 years ago," it would be almost 1/3 of the congregation.

People die, move away, change congregations...constantly.

I would love to see our church running 250 instead of 80. We have the pastor, the property and the programs. We just do not have the people. But then, maybe we do not have the passion, either.

(I see a sermon outline in that paragraph!)

But, then, if we reached 250, we should not sit back and be comfortable with that. We should want to grow some more.

I see our church as "growing" but I do not see numerical growth. We had 3 new teens today and have had two new young adult families the last 2 weeks, but our attendence was the same as 3 weeks ago.

We have the building to hold 250 comfortably in all areas of activities.

What I am desparate to see is new Christians.

Barb

[Dave McClung]

It seems that no matter what we do, no matter what programs we initiate, no matter how much we pray, invite, plan...we just cannot grow.

If you took a show of hands this morning and ask "how many of you were attending here 5 years ago," it would be almost 1/3 of the congregation.

People die, move away, change congregations...constantly.

I would love to see our church running 250 instead of 80. We have the pastor, the property and the programs. We just do not have the people. But then, maybe we do not have the passion, either.

(I see a sermon outline in that paragraph!)

But, then, if we reached 250, we should not sit back and be comfortable with that. We should want to grow some more.

I see our church as "growing" but I do not see numerical growth. We had 3 new teens today and have had two new young adult families the last 2 weeks, but our attendence was the same as 3 weeks ago.

We have the building to hold 250 comfortably in all areas of activities.

What I am desparate to see is new Christians.

Barb

I have belonged to churches from 6 to 3,000 and have concluded that I don't really care about the size as long as it is growing. I don't want to attend a church that is shrinking or staying the same size. There is something special about churches that are interested in welcoming others into the fellowship.

Linda and I have been blessed. We have moved often and been in a wide variety of churches. The one charastic common to each church (except one) we have joined is that it has grown during the time that we were there. I don't think I could survive in a shrinking church.

So, I would respond to the question of "which size" by saying "just a little larger."

[Donna Adams]

If a church is not growing, it's dying. I too want to attend and be a part of a church that is growing, and not just numerically, growing spiritually.

[Jim Monck]

I think one area that we do have to look at is the area. If you are in an exploding area that clearly helps, but so often I see inner attitudes that limit us. Examples: people who do not want to attend a church where they do not know each other; churches where they want to be family rather than family in the sense of having something for everyone in the family; people who are afraid if it gets to big they will not get to sing a solo or hear their grandchild sing one.

Now I'm not saying churches of all sizes do not accomplish something, think of the pastors and missionaries that have come from a small church. But, I sat in a church this morning that has gone from a handful to over 3,000 in just a few years. There is something you can feel that believes God wants to reach people, an excitement.

I wish I was a Calvinist; that would make it much easier to explain why some churches never can get past 100 while in the same area some explode.

Some are excited about what God is doing and others seem to focus on what they want to do. I do agree with Dave that the feeling like that is not limited to size but you can feel it when a church peeks and many times it is because that is what they want I'm afraid.

I hope there is never a day in my life that I don't care about the church and its importance in and to our world and hope whatever size a particular church is that there will be an excitement about what God is doing there.

[Jim Monck]

If a church is not growing, it's dying. I too want to attend and be a part of a church that is growing, and not just numerically, growing spiritually.

For many years there seemed to be an attitude in the Nazarene church that if you got to big you could not be spiritual. Do you think that is still in the minds of many who have been in the church for years?

I often hear that said as a response if the name of a mega church is mentioned.

What do we mean by spiritual?

For many years people were defined as being spiritual if they came back Sunday night and Wednesday night and every night to revival. Is that what we mean? I guess I sound sometimes like I'm asking a lot of questions but I often wonder how long we use terms after we have either changed the meaning or not clearly defined them in our own minds.

I can not guess how many times I hear a pastor report, "We are small but spiritual." Has anyone ever heard a pastor say, "We are large but spiritual."

[Dave McClung]

I can not guess how many times I hear a pastor report, "We are small but spiritual." Has anyone ever heard a pastor say, "We are large but spiritual."

Just last week I had the opportunity to participate in a discussion with the pastor of one of our largest Nazarene Churches. Tears came to his eyes as he talked about the way the Lord is using the church he pastors. His name is Mark Fuller and he pastors in Grove City, OH.

[Dennis M. Scott]

Often churches do become what we want them to be, whether or not we realize what we want them to be. It's been my privilege to pastor very small churches, and a couple that ran about 350 on Sunday morning - and in the part of the country where they were, that was larger than average for Nazarene churches. One of those received 217 members by profession of faith in two and a half years - again something a little out of the ordinary for where it is.

Another of the most exciting churches I've pastored no longer meets. It was a new church, and five of eight families now pastor other congregations. During its short tenure it also sponsored two other daughter congregations. It rarely had an attendance of more than fifty, but I don't think any of us envisioned in going out of existence as quickly as it did. I certainly didn't.

The church I presently pastor is seeing discipleship growth occur in ministries outside the local church, but membership inside is only slowly increasing. There is a Haitian church meeting, a developing group providing transitional housing to homeless men, and AA group, and a discipling group ministry among sex addicts, alcoholics and released prisoners. Most of the persons coming to faith and becoming stronger disciples in those ministries will never become contributing members of the church the district journal says I pastor, and frankly, that isn't one of our objectives - which is likely key. The various ministries outlined have direct involvement in the lives of about 125 people a week, yet our Sunday AM attendance rarely exceeds 30. Is it as big as I/we want it to be? I really think an honest answer is "no." There are, however, some other things we are committed to, and that may inhibit growth as I suspect the original question desired.

Like most groups, we do what we really desire to do.

[Joanne Vergin]

Does the Nazarene Church hae a definition of Small , Med and Lg? My church runs about 200 most Sundays and I call it Medium. I think of churches that need at least 2 services of 200 or more as large. Anythinglss than 100 avg attendance is small?

[Barb Bouldrey]

When we went to welcome Stephen home from his second year in Iraq, we attended Richmond, VA Southside. WOW! I was so impressed with that church and I loved the service. I would love to retire to Richmond and attend that church. It was such a spirit-filled, joyful service and the pastor's message was fantastic.

We have pastored small churches for 37 years. I would love to retire and attend a big church with a dynamic program that seems to "have it all"....something for everyone. I would like to spend our retirement years as a part of a large congregation.

But, where we plan to retire has a small church....and no large Nazarene church near it.

Barb

[Mike Schutz]

There are so many ways I could answer this.

I think one way to answer is that I want to be large enough that we are not a secret in our community, and small enough that no one can attend in secret.

[Gary Swartzlander]

What size we want to be isn't up to us, or maybe it is.

We have a command to win the lost. I guess when all the lost are won then we'll be big enough. In our community we have a long way to go.

[Mike Schutz]

What size we want to be isn't up to us, or maybe it is.

We have a command to win the lost. I guess when all the lost are won then we'll be big enough. In our community we have a long way to go.

Thanks Gary.
That attitude is one of the reasons why your church has been able to be as creative as it has been in reaching people in your community.

[Dave McClung]

When we went to welcome Stephen home from his second year in Iraq, we attended Richmond, VA Southside. WOW! I was so impressed with that church and I loved the service. I would love to retire to Richmond and attend that church. It was such a spirit-filled, joyful service and the pastor's message was fantastic.

We have pastored small churches for 37 years. I would love to retire and attend a big church with a dynamic program that seems to "have it all"....something for everyone. I would like to spend our retirement years as a part of a large congregation.

But, where we plan to retire has a small church....and no large Nazarene church near it.

Barb

Richmond Southside is one of my favorite churches too.

[Bob Woolley]

I believe one of the biggest problems in the Nazarene Church is that we are always looking at numbers. Why not just forget about numbers and just reach out to a hurt and dying world and complete the Great Commission.

Today, our pastor mentioned in his sermon of "coming out of our comfort zone". I hate playing church! I hate to see people playing church! It is just so comfortable to sit back and relax each Sunday and watch the world pass by or then there is the complete opposite of trying program after program trying to increase our church in numbers.

Let's just be obedient...when the Lord says, "go help that person...make a difference...you see.. it is the Lord building the church, not us! If we are obedient to His command, then all of a sudden, you will see all these people in your church and wonder where did they come from??

I watched today of a young lady go to the alter and stand there and poor her heart out...she stood up and poured her heart out...that took a lot of doing among over 100 people...our wonderful people gathered around her for support...practically the whole church...I sit at the back to see hearts touched. I see God working! I see another "new" person being really touched because of that one person coming out of their comfort zone and pouring their heart out. That "new" person was crying in the pew...it affected her and I know she knows now where to come next Sunday!

We are starting to come out of our comfort zone! We don't need to count....cause we will see more new faces!

Pray for us that God will continue to give the increase!

Be friendly, guys! be friendly and come out of your comfort zone!

[Hans Deventer]

I've never asked myself that question. I've been more focussed on what I want my church to be than on the size. And surely, a healthy church will grow, by whatever definition.

[Sara Sheppard]

But, where we plan to retire has a small church....and no large Nazarene church near it.

Barb

Um....you know Nashville has a Nazarene retirement facility on the campus of TNU and many large Nazarene churches AND the weather in Nashville is a lot better than the other place you plan to retire. ;)

Sara

[Marsha Gupton]

Well, Barb Bouldrey, I know of a large nazarene church you can attend.

[David Rhone]

Great question and discussion. If we want growth, we must first close the "back door" to our churches. The facts of our lack of growth and the decline in North America within our church should be obvious to all. We Nazarenes are very good at a lot of things---we're great at colleges, music, conferences, choirs, conventions and many more but, as a denomination, we have never been good at the one thing Jesus told us to do---MAKE DISCIPLES.

Henry Blackabee, in his classic, Experiencing God, teaches us to find where God is working and go join that effort. Take a look at our Nazarene church in Cali, Columbia, the largest and fasting growing church we have. Ten years ago, they averaged 31 in attendance. Four years ago, 1000. Today, 8,000 and are adding about 500 new Believers each month.

How? It's called "The Master's Plan".

I had the opportunity to visit Cali in December 2005 along with 13 other pastors from southern California. We have instituted this wonderful plan of growh, evangelism and discipleship in our DOA church and revival, wonderful revival, has broken out and continues from week to week. This vision of growth, I believe, is God's gift to the Church of the Nazarene, just when we need it most.

I would be happy to share more with any who have interest.

[Jim Monck]

I just noticed that there have only been 19 responses to this discussion. I guess this is the place where if we were a church I would say we are small but really committed.

Sorry, I just couldn't help it. I guess the devil made me do it, but I wonder how many times we do make excusses rather than face some really hard difficult questions. The answers may not always be numerical growth but there would be at least renewed passion for removing whatever road blocks have caused growth to stop.

Or maybe like this discussion, that some things have run their course and new ministries should be looked at rather than dead ones continued. Like the man said, "when the horse is dead, dismount."

[Barb Bouldrey]

Thanks Sara and Marsha!

Barb

[Pete Vecchi]

What size do you want yours to be?



I think that most people want their churches to be a little larger than they currently are.

[David Rhone]

OK---but are "Most people" willing to pay the price? The price, by the way, is making disciples.

Question for every pastor and lay person: If your church makes as many disciples in the next five years as they have in the past five years....will you be happy with the result?

[Gary Swartzlander]

Question for every pastor and lay person: If your church makes as many disciples in the next five years as they have in the past five years....will you be happy with the result?

Happy? Yes. Satisfied? NO


Lay Person, Church Board Chairman

[Mike Schutz]

OK---but are "Most people" willing to pay the price? The price, by the way, is making disciples.

Question for every pastor and lay person: If your church makes as many disciples in the next five years as they have in the past five years....will you be happy with the result?

If by happy you mean satisfied - absolutely not.

I celebrate every transformed life, BUT there are so many more people in our world, in our community, dare I say, IN OUR CHURCH, (even in the pulpit) who are not where God wants them to be, where God plans for them to be, and where God provides the power for them to be.

This is what I lie awake at night thinking about, what I wake up in the middle of the night praying about, and this is what gets me out of bed in the morning.

[David Rhone]

do you want to know the answer of whatever it takes?

[David Rhone]

to Mike Schultz---the answer is clear, regardless of the current size of your church, location or current intential ministries. It a vision out of our church in cali,Columbia, currently running 8000+ per week and growing at approx 500 new beilevers per week. consider this----their back door is closed to the point of retaining 60% of the new convertst for at least one year. If you are doing a great job of this in the states, your rate may be as high as 10%.

I am happy to share this vision with any who are interested. I am currently working with 40+ naz churches. I accept no payment but allow the host to pay for my travel. If you sereiously want the info, write me at sbfirstnaz@hotmal.com. I will reply. In the mean time, google "g12" and look at the material from Bethany World Prayer Center in Baton Rogue, LA. Most of the 20000 churches using thismodel are pentecostal. That bothers some of our foks----the ones who want to stay small.

[David Rhone]

Every church I work with enters in sustained revival. Your old saints catch a vision of what Jesus wanted us to and everyone is off to the races.

The process is long----three years before you see anyreal statistical restults but revevial breaks out among your comitted people within 4 weels/ Weare having our 3rd Encounter Weekend in late April. If you have any interest in this subject. come to San Bernardino, CAl, the armpit of sotheren california for a weekend, I'll help you find a hotel without gun fire holes in the rooms. Call me at (909) 771-9940. Pastor Dave (the werid one)

[Gary Swartzlander]

do you want to know the answer of whatever it takes?


"Whatever It Takes" isn't really a question, it's an attitude, but I'd be interested in your thoughts.

[John Kennedy]

OK---but are "Most people" willing to pay the price? The price, by the way, is making disciples.

Question for every pastor and lay person: If your church makes as many disciples in the next five years as they have in the past five years....will you be happy with the result?

Seemingly unrelated question (but maybe not):

Are you the pastor of San Bernardino, CA First Church?

[John Kennedy]

Every church I work with enters in sustained revival. Your old saints catch a vision of what Jesus wanted us to and everyone is off to the races.

The process is long----three years before you see anyreal statistical restults but revevial breaks out among your comitted people within 4 weels/ Weare having our 3rd Encounter Weekend in late April. If you have any interest in this subject. come to San Bernardino, CAl, the armpit of sotheren california for a weekend, I'll help you find a hotel without gun fire holes in the rooms. Call me at (909) 771-9940. Pastor Dave (the werid one)


Dave -

Thanks for answering my earlier question.

Although not a member,I knew that church in earlier days. Some might have called it the 'glory days'. Beautiful new building, thriving school, solid, prosperous congregation, attractive ministries, etc. I assume the stats would show healthy membership gains, good finances, budgets paid, etc.

Some would look at it today and see difficult finances, physical plant that needs repair, low attendance, etc. and say the 'glory days' are over. If the accounts I read in the SB newspaper are correct, SB First may well be in its most 'glorious' days.

According to a great deal of the denominational cirteria it might be reckoned to be a failing church. But in the sense of positively impacting an incredibly difficult community, it is a resounding success. In the sense of being where Christ would be, doing what he would be doing, that church has probably never been in more of its 'glory' days. I salute you and your ministry there. Anyone who has any idea of the incredible forces arrayed against you would join me.

God bless you!