Church or family?

[Marsha Lynn]

In the thread about Sunday evening service, several mentioned enjoying time with their family on Sunday evenings rather than being obligated to a church service. In my blog entry (http://marshalyn.blogspot.com/2005/11/why-i-go-to-church.html) about why I go to church, the idea of gathering with my 'family' was one of the reasons I gave for going.

I agree that time with our immediate family is important and maybe, for some, Sunday evening is the only time for that to happen. On the other hand, there are other ways to look at this. When Jesus' mother and brothers came to see him one day and people told him his family was waiting outside, he looked around at his disciples and said, "My family is right here" (or something like that).

If you took your spouse and kids to a family reunion and the kids ran off to play with cousins and you chatted with your aunts and uncles and cousins all afternoon, wouldn't you call that "family time"? Would you feel like you were neglecting your immediate family by hanging out with the other adults instead of with your own kids?

What if you gathered with extended family every Sunday for dinner? Would you want to go home afterwards and gather with just your own household members to make up for having neglected them all afternoon?

Maybe it's because I live 80 miles from the closest members of my extended family and over 200 from the rest of the group, but I consider that my church IS my family. When we all gather together, that is family time.

This is our first year as empty-nesters. Last year because of some complications, it was just the five of us for Thanksgiving -- my husband and me and our three children. This past week, my son broke the news to me that he wouldn't be home this year for Thanksgiving. I told him, "Well, you're in good company. Neither of your sisters will be here either." (We are joining extended family for a Thanksgiving celebration on Saturday and one daughter will join us for that.) He's staying on campus (Notre Dame) along with his friends and has a weekend outing planned. I asked him what he'd do for Thanksgiving Day. He wasn't sure but figured he'd do something with people from the Baptist church he attends there. And there you go -- family!

When my oldest daughter moved to Colorado in July, she immediately started looking for a church family. It took her a while to find one. In the meantime, the Nazarene church where her housemate is on staff adopted her. When her car needed work, there was a mechanic in that church who provided an estimate. When she was despairing about finding a job, someone standing in the church office overheard part of a phone conversation between her and the pastor and connected her to the job she now enjoys. When she decided she simply could not be part of that too-comfortable suburban church, the pastor gave her name out to other Nazarene pastors in the area and she is now actively involved in a new church (http://www.theclay.org) in Boulder.

Our conservative rural setting always made it pretty easy to have at least one meal together as a household every week -- Sunday dinner. (It's over 15 miles to the closest restaurant with Sunday hours, making it easy to establish a policy of eating at home on Sunday) And even when the kids were up in high school with active lives outside the home, we managed to eat together other times during most weeks. We didn't really feel a need to spend time with immediate family on Sunday evenings. I suspect that if it hadn't been for Sunday evening services, the kids would have scattered to friends' houses soon after dinner and been out for the rest of the evening. It was Sunday evening service that kept them from straying too far on Sunday afternoons. Then we would be back with 'family' in the evening -- our church family.

I don't know. Maybe that was a bad thing. All three of them have found somewhere other than home to be on Thanksgiving Day this year. On the other hand, they will all celebrate Thanksgiving with Christian friends. It would be great to have them here, but I'm grateful that they will be with 'family' by some definition.

Now, my husband and I just need to figure out what we are doing for Thanksgiving Day. The church Thanksgiving celebration is tomorrow evening (instead of the regular service) and the one with my extended family is Saturday. We don't need more turkey, just something with a bit of traditional feel to it that doesn't require either our church or our immediate family. (And, no, there's no soup kitchen in the area.)

I think that we do have responsibility to the members of our household that takes priority over the 'extended' church family, but I don't consider the church to be competing with family. It IS family.

Marsha

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

Good post Marsha.

I asked someone who attends a church that decided to give up Sunday nights and encourage people to have "family time" what they were doing as a family on Sunday nights. They shrugged and said, "We watch TV." I imagine that even more people would say, "We go to the mall."

It also makes me think of politicans who need to leave office and say it is, "to spend more time with my family." Sounds good, but no one believes it.

If families are so busy that they never spend time together will they honestly set Sunday night aside to "be together" or will they take advantage of the time to keep doing whatever it is they do on Saturday night or other opportunities that they are missing?

I wonder if churches that have shut down Sunday night have honestly thought about what their families are doing with the supposed quality time the church is freeing up for them. While I know someone can come up with examples of families doing wonderful things, my gut feeling is that most are doing whatever it is non-Christians do with their Sunday nights.

If it is just another night of TV or opportunity to go grocery shopping or whatever, then giving up church for "family time" needs to be seriously reconsidered."

If the church is really concerned about "family time" maybe it should use Sunday nights to bring families together as Marsha describes in her post.

[Charlene Clevenger]

In 25 years of marriage we have never lived in the same city as family members. Amost from the beginning our church has been our family. They showed us how to be parents, of babies to teenagers. Both the right way and the wrong way :) . Now they are teaching us about empty nest syndrome, grandparenthood, and how to live when children return to the nest.

I can't imagine a life without the church. I'm sure we would wile away the hours in front of the TV.

[William Hunter]

Good post Marsha.

I asked someone who attends a church that decided to give up Sunday nights and encourage people to have "family time" what they were doing as a family on Sunday nights. They shrugged and said, "We watch TV." I imagine that even more people would say, "We go to the mall."

It also makes me think of how many politicans who know they won't win an election resign from office. The reason is always, "to spend more time with my family." Sounds good, but no one believes it.

If families are so busy that they never spend time together will they honestly set Sunday night aside to "be together" or will they take advantage of the time to keep doing whatever it is they do on Saturday night or other opportunities that they are missing?

I wonder if churches that have shut down Sunday night have honestly thought about what their families are doing with the supposed quality time the church is freeing up for them. While I know someone can come up with examples of families doing wonderful things, my gut feeling is that most are doing whatever it is non-Christians do with their Sunday nights.

If it is just another night of TV or opportunity to go grocery shopping or whatever, then giving up church for "family time" needs to be seriously reconsidered."

If the church is really concerned about "family time" maybe it should use Sunday nights to bring families together as Marsha describes in her post.

Nothing ever happens without planning and intentional effort. TV is probably what we get if we just cancelled the services and then hoped our people took the lead for their families. Before we ended Sunday evening, even as poorly attended as it was, we planned and scheduled those activities that would help make this evening what we had envisioned it to be. Yes, everything we do takes lots of planning and work to make happen.

But the end result for us is that we usually see from 60-80% of our morning numbers involved in some form on Sunday PM's. I think one of the reasons our worship is going so well is the huge amount of planning that goes into it---even to my planning the prayer time with projection of Scripture putting words in the Bible prayed back to God. I have come to see that much of my time needs to go to prayer, study of the Word, and the planning of the activities our church does in its various groups. We try to leave nothig to chance. And I do alot of adminstrative work and some other things that many say pastors should not do, but I want my people free to use their spiritual gifts in ministry, not doing administrative things and not being able to do ministry. It takes huge amounts of my time, but my ministry and leadership for the church has been more effective here than ever before. I/we have not arrived yet for there is much to improve on but we are headed in the right direction and we are seeing strong unity in the church community here, and strengthened family units. The time and effort are worth it.

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

But the end result for us is that we usually see from 60-80% of our morning numbers involved in some form on Sunday PM's.

Although you quote my post as though you are replying to it, actually your church has not given up Sunday nights and told people to go have "family time" as I was talking -- you have a well planned program on Sunday nights and people are responding to it.

[Cindi Hammons]

I'll start out by saying that since I've been on the church board, I have rarely missed a Sunday evening.

However, I don't think I would use "family time" as an excuse to skip Sunday night service. Sometimes I think, if I did skip, it would be out of pure exhaustion. If Sunday is supposed to be the day of rest, I sure wish someone would tell that to the church! There are times when I'm only home a couple of hours between services before we have to go back for something. Because of church "stuff," we spend more hours at church on Sunday than I would in my daily job.

Cindi H.

[William Hunter]

Although you quote my post as though you are replying to it, actually your church has not given up Sunday nights and told people to go have "family time" as I was talking -- you have a well planned program on Sunday nights and people are responding to it.

I guess most of us, if left with no direction, take the easiest way, in this case sitting in front of the tube; and there are times I sure would like to do that. But because of this tendancy of us humans I did not feel we could just let go of Sunday nights and "hope" something happens. I had a few who thought that if we just let it go that most would find their way---a false hope on their part. When some told me they did not attend on Sunday PM's because they did not feel they needed two worship services in a day, that such a thing in this day does not meet a need, I began to do some polling of my people through personal visits to talk about this and find out what would get them involved; what would they like to participate in that would help them and their family. Out of that came our plan. As I said, we are not there yet by any means, but we are moving the right way. When our people are out in a world all week that would draw them away from Christ, balanced by the fact they need time to relax and download after a busy week, the plan we are using seems to help meet both needs. It needs some refining but we are kind of feeling our way here so we make some mistakes, have some nice successes, and refocus and reshape to get as close to "perfect" as we can.

I have not given up on any of the concepts I grew up with in the church. I just think we need to rethink how we do them (ie. prayer mtg., Sunday PM, even our approach to worship, Christian Ed., etc.). The old concepts are good but the method does not fit in many places today, so we find new methods to express the concepts of the Great Commission and the Great Commandment. I sure could benefit from heaing what some of you others are doing with the old concepts in order to impact our world today. Many of the things I am leading my church in scare me to death at times. My DS tells me that we are living out in faith territory where Christ often shows us only the next step. I've never led a church the way we are today, and my congregation has never been down this path before either. I often feel like one of the priests at the crossing of the Jordon and they knew the first step into that flood swollen river was over their head. I wonder if there was a discussion about who was in the lead the day before. They had to trust God for next step or they went in over their head. So often I feel that I am in major trouble on any given day if God decides not to show up. It sure does make a man of prayer out of you.

You are right, Scott, I have not given up on Sunday nights. I saw that we needed to take a different approach to speak to the spiritual needs my people voiced.

[Marsha Lynn]

I'll start out by saying that since I've been on the church board, I have rarely missed a Sunday evening.

However, I don't think I would use "family time" as an excuse to skip Sunday night service. Sometimes I think, if I did skip, it would be out of pure exhaustion. If Sunday is supposed to be the day of rest, I sure wish someone would tell that to the church! There are times when I'm only home a couple of hours between services before we have to go back for something. Because of church "stuff," we spend more hours at church on Sunday than I would in my daily job.

Cindi H.

Ah... there's the catch. The church does indeed like to keep people busy the entire day on Sunday. Several years ago, Brad Mercer mentioned on NazNet that people would schedule meetings on Sunday saying, "That's the only time people have available." His answer was, "There's a reason for that" (or something like that). It has stuck with me. I am very resistant to Sunday commitments. I generally rise at 6:30 on Sundays to finish up my SS lesson (which I oughtta be doing now instead of typing this) and try to be at church by 9 so I can be responsive to people wanting my attention and still be ready for SS at 9:30. We're usually home by noon. Even if we have a potluck dinner, we're usually home about the same time we would get dinner cleaned up if we ate at home. Today I have a meeting at 5 pm but that's a recent commitment. I didn't know it included 5 pm Sunday meetings when I agreed to it. For now, I don't mind, but if it gets to be a burden, I'll rethink that commitment.

Our evening service is at 6. If I can have the afternoon free, I'm ready to go back for another hour or two. There's a group that often goes out after the evening service. My introvert personality has me longing for hearth and home by that time after so many hours of social interaction. I don't mind an occasional "afterglow" but resist off-campus outings. If I can spend some downtime before bedtime, I generally count the day as a good one.

I'd miss the evening service. It adds structure to both my afternoon and evening. However, I wouldn't mind if it involved something besides another sermon. The main attraction of it to me is the relaxed 'family' atmosphere.

By the way, the only way I can keep my Sunday afternoons free is to plan ahead. Yesterday I fixed everything I'm taking to tonight's Thanksgiving dinner. It takes effort, but I refuse to consider Sunday afternoons as 'slop time' for the work I don't finish on the other six days, even for church work. I finish up my SS lesson on Sunday morning so that it's fresh in my mind and take a few minutes in the late afternoon to print out payroll checks to deliver in the evening. I try to have everything else in place when Sunday morning comes. Just as I don't want other people messing with my Sunday afternoons and evenings, I discipline myself to not dump a bunch of junk there.

God said I could take one day off every week. I'm taking him up on it.

Marsha

[Cindi Hammons]

However, I wouldn't mind if it involved something besides another sermon. The main attraction of it to me is the relaxed 'family' atmosphere.

I'll agree with you on that.

Cindi H.

[Michael B. Ross]

Marsha, your post sent me down memory lane. I remember in a sermon saying, "I cannot see where my family ends and my church begins." Knowing the context of the sermon, the listeners understood, and many agreed. I was feeling the convergence of my family and the congregation. They both were sources of strength, love and purpose. Congregational life and family life were merging into something greater than either of them might be alone. Each was making the other better.

I saw that as good; I am not so sure now. I agree with you—church and family should not be seen as competitors for our time and loyalty. In fact, they both can serve as excellent models for the other. I am now, however, more of a proponent of the need to maintain the distinctiveness of each.

I have other memories:
I never expected the youth pastor to assume a responsibility for the spiritual development of my children. Even as pastor, I believed the primary role of the youth program was to provide resources that would enhance Diana’s and my parenting responsibilities.
I have many concerns about the children’s church program. I recognize its value, but I also am a proponent of Sunday morning multi-generational worship. Yes, kids will disrupt, but I think that is a price congregations might be willing to pay. There is greater value in families sitting together--singing the melodies of the faith, hearing the ancient Word of God and gathering at the Lord’s Table.
I also remember “unofficially” giving even lay-leaders permission not to attend Sunday night. I needn’t need them there to boost my sense of worth, and they needed to rest and be alone at home as a family.I understand my comments are fragmented and possibly inconsistent. Regardless, they should not be seen as contradictory to anything you wrote. I am only speaking for myself. I wonder now if my feelings of the larger family were simply that—feelings. My history shows that I put a greater value on the family unit over what is happening down the street on Sunday evening (or any other evening).

If we were not going to Florida this week, you and your husband would receive an invitation to our house for Thanksgiving dinner. It would be an honor to have you. Is Black Buggy open? Oh, that reminds me; did you notice someone listed Black Buggy as her favorite restaurant? I am not sure if she meant the one in Washington.

In the thread about Sunday evening service, several mentioned enjoying time with their family on Sunday evenings rather than being obligated to a church service. In my blog entry (http://marshalyn.blogspot.com/2005/11/why-i-go-to-church.html) about why I go to church, the idea of gathering with my 'family' was one of the reasons I gave for going.

I agree that time with our immediate family is important and maybe, for some, Sunday evening is the only time for that to happen. On the other hand, there are other ways to look at this. When Jesus' mother and brothers came to see him one day and people told him his family was waiting outside, he looked around at his disciples and said, "My family is right here" (or something like that).

If you took your spouse and kids to a family reunion and the kids ran off to play with cousins and you chatted with your aunts and uncles and cousins all afternoon, wouldn't you call that "family time"? Would you feel like you were neglecting your immediate family by hanging out with the other adults instead of with your own kids?

What if you gathered with extended family every Sunday for dinner? Would you want to go home afterwards and gather with just your own household members to make up for having neglected them all afternoon?

Maybe it's because I live 80 miles from the closest members of my extended family and over 200 from the rest of the group, but I consider that my church IS my family. When we all gather together, that is family time.

This is our first year as empty-nesters. Last year because of some complications, it was just the five of us for Thanksgiving -- my husband and me and our three children. This past week, my son broke the news to me that he wouldn't be home this year for Thanksgiving. I told him, "Well, you're in good company. Neither of your sisters will be here either." (We are joining extended family for a Thanksgiving celebration on Saturday and one daughter will join us for that.) He's staying on campus (Notre Dame) along with his friends and has a weekend outing planned. I asked him what he'd do for Thanksgiving Day. He wasn't sure but figured he'd do something with people from the Baptist church he attends there. And there you go -- family!

When my oldest daughter moved to Colorado in July, she immediately started looking for a church family. It took her a while to find one. In the meantime, the Nazarene church where her housemate is on staff adopted her. When her car needed work, there was a mechanic in that church who provided an estimate. When she was despairing about finding a job, someone standing in the church office overheard part of a phone conversation between her and the pastor and connected her to the job she now enjoys. When she decided she simply could not be part of that too-comfortable suburban church, the pastor gave her name out to other Nazarene pastors in the area and she is now actively involved in a new church (http://www.theclay.org) in Boulder.

Our conservative rural setting always made it pretty easy to have at least one meal together as a household every week -- Sunday dinner. (It's over 15 miles to the closest restaurant with Sunday hours, making it easy to establish a policy of eating at home on Sunday) And even when the kids were up in high school with active lives outside the home, we managed to eat together other times during most weeks. We didn't really feel a need to spend time with immediate family on Sunday evenings. I suspect that if it hadn't been for Sunday evening services, the kids would have scattered to friends' houses soon after dinner and been out for the rest of the evening. It was Sunday evening service that kept them from straying too far on Sunday afternoons. Then we would be back with 'family' in the evening -- our church family.

I don't know. Maybe that was a bad thing. All three of them have found somewhere other than home to be on Thanksgiving Day this year. On the other hand, they will all celebrate Thanksgiving with Christian friends. It would be great to have them here, but I'm grateful that they will be with 'family' by some definition.

Now, my husband and I just need to figure out what we are doing for Thanksgiving Day. The church Thanksgiving celebration is tomorrow evening (instead of the regular service) and the one with my extended family is Saturday. We don't need more turkey, just something with a bit of traditional feel to it that doesn't require either our church or our immediate family. (And, no, there's no soup kitchen in the area.)

I think that we do have responsibility to the members of our household that takes priority over the 'extended' church family, but I don't consider the church to be competing with family. It IS family.

Marsha

[Marsha Lynn]

Thanks for your comments. I am filing them away mentally. I need to see things from different viewpoints, particularly from one who is learning new truths and rethinking their positions. I don't really have strong opinions in this area. Just, for now, as my husband and I are adjusting to the empty nest, I'm particularly appreciative of my church family.


If we were not going to Florida this week, you and your husband would receive an invitation to our house for Thanksgiving dinner. It would be an honor to have you.

Well, his first idea was that we spend the day cutting firewood. That wasn't exactly what I would have planned. Now we have an invitation to join some people from church at Golden Corral. We'll see what develops.

Is Black Buggy open?

I'm not sure, but we wouldn't head that way. We're already having two Thanksgiving dinners during the week. More food is not what we need. That's the drawback of the Golden Corral invitation.

Oh, that reminds me; did you notice someone listed Black Buggy as her favorite restaurant? I am not sure if she meant the one in Washington.

Yes, Sharon Williams from Washington cast that vote.

After reading your favorite restaurant thread, I suggested Ponderosa for our Friday evening outing. I came home stuffed way past the point of comfort. I now know the truth about my favorite restaurant. It's Taco Bell. I like the food. I especially like the serving sizes. I don't like stuffing myself.

Now you know the truth. I have no class whatsoever. ;)

Happy Thanksgiving and enjoy the Florida sunshine!

Marsha
(who eats to live rather than living to eat)