Rage: Sin or Disorder?

[Barb Bouldrey]

I saw an ad for a "Dr. Keith" program that is coming soon that deals with rage. The commercial shows a mother saying, "I just get so angry at my child I cannot control my temper."

This Dr. Keith is going to discuss the rage "disorder."

There is another TV commercial advertizing help for those who suffer from "road rage" disorder. It gives a professional, psychological fancy name to this disorder.

More and more I see phychology/psychiatry coming up with new "disorders" to fit everything that is wrong with a human personality.

How many of these disorders are just justifying sin? or an undisciplined life? or unforgiveness? or unsurrendered problems?

How many people say, "I just can't help myself," who could find victory over many of the emotional things in their lives if they would just admit their problem, confess it to God and ask God to cleanse them and help them surrender it all to Him.

I know. I know. I know that many people have gone beyond sinful habits to adictions or disorders. I know there are many cases like that.

But it disturbs me that so many want to excuse their bad behaviour with an "I can't help myself because I have a disorder?"

Barb

[Scott Hilton]

Barb I had the exact same thought just the other day. I was at the gym attempting to get back in too shape (ouch) and they have three tv's in front of the cardio equipment. They had that show with Rosie O'donnel on it on the one tv and while I really try to ignore that one and watch ESPN, I got a conversation she was having about depression. She then went on to say she also had Seasonal Affective Disorder. I had never heard of that one before.......makes me wonder if we can have a disorder for anything we want. I am starting to bald, I could get very depressed and claim forehead stretching disorder, but I won't. (I know, poor humor) Thats all part of the lies of the prince of this world though, isn't it? Surely He didn't say, you will die, right?

[Barbara Moulton]

She then went on to say she also had Seasonal Affective Disorder. I had never heard of that one before.......

I guarantee if you lived in Canada you would have heard of it.

It is a very real problem that can lead to depression. It results from a lack of sun and short hours of daylight.

[Kevin Rector]

I am starting to bald, I could get very depressed...

I too am balding and I take great comfort in the word of God:

When a man has lost his hair and is bald, he is clean.

Leviticus 13:40

:basic05

[Barb Bouldrey]

Thanks, Kevin,

I plan on using that scripture. LOL I tease John that he needs hairspray to hold all 6 hairs in place.

Barb

[Bob Jones]

But it disturbs me that so many want to excuse their bad behaviour with an "I can't help myself because I have a disorder?"

Barb

If there was no hope until Freud, Skinner, Wagner.... then Christ died in vain.

I preached at a church just outside Pocatello a few years ago an after a woman asked me to counsel her for agoraphobia. I agreed to as long as she came to the house that was hosting me. After screaming in the car for 15 minutes when she got there I explained that I didn't know anything about agoraphobia, so all I could do is tell what I knew from the Bible. I said she was a liar and didn't love God. She lied about her sickness when its a sin called fear. And since perfect love casts out fear, I had to assume she didn't love God.

The conversation took less than ten minutes. She went off to a bedroom and cried for about half an hour. When she came back, she admitted to the sin. She said she learned the behavior as a child to manipulate her parents and never outgrew it. She had been in professional Christian counseling for 12 or 15 years. She went and got her drivers license, went back to school, and was on the Governors's commission for the handicapped.

God's word is effective even when it comes from the mouth of an hmmm. donkey.

[Kevin Rector]

After screaming in the car for 15 minutes when she got there I explained that I didn't know anything about agoraphobia, so all I could do is tell what I knew from the Bible. I said she was a liar and didn't love God. She lied about her sickness when its a sin called fear. And since perfect love casts out fear, I had to assume she didn't love God.

I've known people that I am convinced were faking a mental illness. I know one lady in particular who is "depressed" all time, unless it's time to do what she wants to do.

But Bob, I would be very careful. There are legitimate medical diseases that affect the mind. The mind is organic just like the rest of the body and just as a femur can break so can a mind, and we have only just begun to understand how the mind works.

[Barbara Moulton]

I would be careful about the direction this thread seems to be starting to take. Barb's original question is legitimate...I too am a little sceptical about the number of disorders that have arisen in the past decade.

But having said that, NazNet is meant to be a safe place and I would not want to see us start to label the mentally ill as "fakers" and/or that their mental suffering is simply sin.

Having had my own struggle with stress induced depression ten years ago, I am only too aware of how painful it can be to be urged to simply "get right with God".

[Kevin Rector]

But having said that, NazNet is meant to be a safe place and I would not want to see us start to label the mentally ill as "fakers" and/or that their mental suffering is simply sin.

I agree wholeheartedly. If I gave any other impression I am sorry.

[Bob Jones]

But Bob, I would be very careful. There are legitimate medical diseases that affect the mind. The mind is organic just like the rest of the body and just as a femur can break so can a mind, and we have only just begun to understand how the mind works.

I trust that when God leads someone to me. That he wants them to hear whatever ignorant thing from His word that he has given me. I am sure that Becky is happy that I am as ignorant as I am.

I shared for 10 minutes at the bedside of a woman who was catatonic. I said things that were just as ignorant. I baptised her and her sister two weeks later, and performed her wedding a few months after that.

I would think that sharing these things would give hope to the suffering that indeed Christ is the answer.

[Barbara Moulton]

I trust that when God leads someone to me. That he wants them to hear whatever ignorant thing from His word that he has given me. I am sure that Becky is happy that I am as ignorant as I am.

I shared for 10 minutes at the bedside of a woman who was catatonic. I said things that were just as ignorant. I baptised her and her sister two weeks later, and performed her wedding a few months after that.

I would think that sharing these things would give hope to the suffering that indeed Christ is the answer.

I won't get into a long discussion about this. I stand by the concerns that I expressed.

Blessings,
Barbara

[Bob Jones]

I'm sorry if I have offended you all.

I thought this would be a safe place for some fellowship.

Apparently, from the little Thank counts, I have done nothing but step on toes and offend you.

So I'll take it elsewhere.

Thanks for the chat. Some of you would have been real interesting to get to know.

[Barbara Moulton]

I'm sorry if I have offended you all.

I thought this would be a safe place for some fellowship.

Apparently, from the little Thank counts, I have done nothing but step on toes and offend you.

So I'll take it elsewhere.

Thanks for the chat. Some of you would have been real interesting to get to know.

You didn't offend me at all. I was just stating my opinion just as you state your opinions. I don't understand why you would to decide to leave NazNet after just a few days, simply because I disagreed with something you had written. But you certainly have that right.

I've been on NazNet for ten years and I really believe that part of keeping it safe is holding each other accountable at times. I would say that all of us "long timers" have had to apologize many times throughout the years. I know I have been challenged. Sometimes, as I thought about it, I realized I was wrong and apologized. Sometimes I thought about it and came to a different opinion. :-)

But ultimately, I decided a long time ago that the fellowship I enjoyed here was worth the occasional challenge and worth the risk of occasionally being misunderstood.

Blessings friend,
Barbara

[Scott Hilton]

I guarantee if you lived in Canada you would have heard of it.

It is a very real problem that can lead to depression. It results from a lack of sun and short hours of daylight.

Well, it didn't help me to here about it from Rosie, if you know what I mean. There was not offense intended, so I apologize if I did come off the wrong way. Sometimes the messagboard way of communicating is just not a good way of expressing sarcasm.

I have not personally been affected by any disorders, but my wife does suffer from anxiety problems. She didn't use to, but many years back she hit her head pretty good while we were being very stupid and drunk and then not too long after that she got into a car wreck. For some reason ever since those two incidents she has had problems around groups of people and in confined areas that she can't see out of. It used to be so bad that we could not go to the movies, because she would start basically having a serious attack.

However, since having Christ in our lives, she has been MUCH better. He is working healing through her and it has been a blessing to our lives. It has not gone completely away, but we both know His grace is sufficient.

God bless
Scott

[Barbara Moulton]

Sometimes the messagboard way of communicating is just not a good way of expressing sarcasm.

You are right about that. I often think that if we werel having all these discussions face to face, we would have a much better chance of developing a rapport.

Blessings,
Barbara

[Bob Jones]

Thanks Barbara. This thread just shows me that I am unable to establish the contact I hoped I would.

I have been seeing cool things in the scriptures that I wanted to bounce off some people. I am unable to find others who have commented on some of the stuff, and being naturally suspicious of anything that is "new" I was hoping to be able to discuss them.

But if I am already offending people on things I thought were basic, if I start sharing the red letter / black letter parallelisms that I am seeing, or shadows of Christ in places that I can't find anyone else has commented on them, then I will have to constantly be taking a defensive posture.

I can do that in any forum.
It' requires too much of an investment on my part.

You all have been kind enough. We just haven't been able to establish a connection anywhere.
Admittedly, my evangelistic style and counseling style is confrontational. I apologize if I have been unable to contain it in these discussions.

[Brad Mercer]

Well of course, the whole point of counseling, whether from a psychologist or a pastor, is precisely to help people help themselves. Giving it a name is not excusing it as beyond resolution. You're absolutely right that many (not all) mental disorders involve unforgiveness, unsurrendered problems and so forth. The job of the counselor is precisely to help them discover what those unsurrendered hurts are, what sins they've committed for which they still carry shame and fear of exposure, what sins have been committed against them for which they harbor fear, hatred and unforgiveness and so forth.

We do need to pray, and some problems are resolved instantly in prayer. But we are invited to love God with all our mind, and to be being renewed by the transforming of our minds, and some areas of spiritual and emotional growth require actual thinking as well as prayer, and sometimes we need someone to help us think, to recognize how all those things harbored in our hearts shape our current emotions and behaviors in apparently unrelated areas of our lives.

There's no reason a Christian needs to be afraid of an identifying label. It doesn't necessarily serve either to excuse someone's sin or leave them in permanent bondage to their sin.

On occasion (very rare occasion) the very blunt, immediate, straight to the central issue approach that Bob Jones describes in this thread may be all that is needed to get to the root of the issue. But many times it takes a lot more thought and discussion from both the caregiver and the person with the problem, to get to a clear understanding of what that root issue really is, and how it's connected to all the other stuff, the symptomatic issues that have led them to seek help finally.

I don't think anyone needs to feel threatened or defensive like the idea of sin and repentance is mutually exclusive with the idea of mental disorder and counseling.

I'm completely confident that a lot of hurting people have been hurt further by being attacked as sinners and having repentance demanded on the spot when they could have been helped by allowing their minds to be a little more engaged in the process. I'm equally sure that a lot of hurting people have been hurt further by being essentially enabled by years of "counseling" that never really got down to the real issue that might have been dealt with directly and quickly with a very short conversation and a session of prayer by some Christian who knew and loved them well enough.

Brad

[Anne and Dwayne Hood]

Mitral Valve Prolapse of the heart causes emotional problems, panic, shortness of breath, constant fatigue, etc. Some people get hyper in small or large crowds, thus making many of them talk too much. Then, they go away extremely embarrassed. Just add high BP, and homonal problems to that, and call it anything you wish. Many times, only God understands. But, He can help.
"Excuses, excuses, I hear them every day"--a song. It is impossible to understand, unless you have walked in their mocasins. Then, add being a pastor's wife, mother to small children, or teens (etc.) to all of that. We just cannot judge.

[Barbara Moulton]

Thanks Barbara. This thread just shows me that I am unable to establish the contact I hoped I would.

I am sorry you feel that and it certainly wasn't my intent. And as I said before...you didn not offend me...nor anyone else that I am aware of. Just because someone doesn't agree with what you have said, doesn't mean they are offended by what you said.

If you are still lurking and reading then I would have to say that a few days is simply not enough to establish contact and would urge you to give it a little while longer.

Based on what I have read of your posts, I think it would be fair to say that you and I do approach many subjects differently.

But that doesn't mean there isn't room on NazNet for both of us.

Many blessings on your continued ministry. My dad was an evangelist for many, many years.

Blessings,
Barbara

[Barb Bouldrey]

Once, again, pulling this discussion back to what I originally intended, here is what I am saying:

1. People who experience road rage do not have an emotional disorder. They have an anger issue and probably a sin issue. They are rude and self-centered and want their way. Sounds like a spoiled child.

2. Mothers who cannot control their tempers and explode at thier children might not have a disorder...they might need help from God, or someone who will give her some time off occasionally.

I know that some people have allowed themselves and the problems in their lives to push their anger levels until it is beyond normal. I know there are "anger management" classes. And I know some people need professional help to get their anger under control.

I am not saying anger is not a serious problem and "just" a sin problem.

It just concerns me that it is so easy to give something a disorder "label." People seems to excuses themselves if they can blame it on a disorder. They do not have to "own" the problem.

It is sort of like saying, "I have an hot temper. I cannot help it. I am a Irish redhead." So, that person blows up in anger whenever they want to because they "cannot help themselves."

And I know that you cannot say, "Just snap out of it."

There are real disorders that require professional help. But I think our society is inventing some disorders to excuse bad behavior.

Barb

[Barbara Moulton]

Thanks for bringing us back Barb.

I know I became concerned about this when my youngest daughter said a fellow student in her class (Grade 7) threw a chair violently across the room. If it had hit someone it could have injured them.

When I asked Leisha what was going to be done about it she said, "Nothing...apparently he has an anger managment problem." I guess he was receiving counselling for this.

What was interesting was that when she was in Grade 8 we moved up to Orangeville. Suddenly she was in a rural school and she came home and commented on the fact that the class was much calmer and the children were far more respectful. No chair throwing.

Why such a difference?

From whence cometh these disorders? Are people with anger managment problems individuals who weren't taught to control their anger when they were younger?



Once, again, pulling this discussion back to what I originally intended, here is what I am saying:

1. People who experience road rage do not have an emotional disorder. They have an anger issue and probably a sin issue. They are rude and self-centered and want their way. Sounds like a spoiled child.

2. Mothers who cannot control their tempers and explode at thier children might not have a disorder...they might need help from God, or someone who will give her some time off occasionally.

I know that some people have allowed themselves and the problems in their lives to push their anger levels until it is beyond normal. I know there are "anger management" classes. And I know some people need professional help to get their anger under control.

I am not saying anger is not a serious problem and "just" a sin problem.

It just concerns me that it is so easy to give something a disorder "label." People seems to excuses themselves if they can blame it on a disorder. They do not have to "own" the problem.

It is sort of like saying, "I have an hot temper. I cannot help it. I am a Irish redhead." So, that person blows up in anger whenever they want to because they "cannot help themselves."

And I know that you cannot say, "Just snap out of it."

There are real disorders that require professional help. But I think our society is inventing some disorders to excuse bad behavior.

Barb

[Barb Bouldrey]

I see children who are allowed to throw temper tantrums without being disciplined. I see children whose parents allow them to control their parents with temper tantrums. Instead of being punished(disciplined) for outbursts of anger, they get their way.

I believe a lot of "road rage" and parental anger started when these people were children and allowed to explode with anger, uncontrolled.

I also believe that road rage has become "popular." It is almost a game to some.

And people think they have a right to be rude and angry.

I have a friend who was behind a person at a drive-through window at a pharmacy. The man in the truck in front of her was taking way too long to process his order and my friend was spouting off rude remarks about him, not knowing he could hear. She backed up, parked, went in and got her order and came back out...and the guy was still at the drive through window.

As she got into her car, she said, "Jerk!" and he heard her. He jumped out of his truck with a gun in his hand, running toward her. She spun out of there as fast as she could, scared to death he was going to shoot her. He jumped in his truck and came after her, but she got through a light just as it turned red and lost him.

Now....both of these people were wrong. She was rude and angry and it almost cost her bodily harm. He exploded in anger.

The unleashed, uncontrolled anger I see today really concerns me.

Barb