How much?

[Jim Monck]

How much should a church adjust it's program to keep those that complain?

Andy Stanley's church decided they would not adjust their church to keep people at the expense of not reaching people.

[Billy Cox]

How much should a church adjust it's program to keep those that complain?

Andy Stanley's church decided they would not adjust their church to keep people at the expense of not reaching people.

It depends on the nature of the complaints and the spirit in which they are delivered.

I don't know that a hard-line stance is that good, because doing so communicates a lack of care. People often hold their ideas just a little too close too their hearts.

Appeasement is also dangerous because many complainers will not be appeased even if we DO sing all four verses of Victory in Jesus and have Sunday School even on Christmas Day. In my experience, those whom we treat with kid gloves are eventually going to leave anyway, and appeasement demoralizes everyone else. That's a textbook example of a lose-lose.

The answer imho is dialog...not a high-pressure sales pitch and not a milquetoast policy of appeasement. Dialog is very effective with sensible people. Anyone else probably isn't much of an asset to the church to start with.

[Gary Swartzlander]

How much should a church adjust it's program to keep those that complain?


Not very much. If a church has done a good job of sharing the mission, vision, values and what it means to the life of the body, there shouldn't be very many complaints.

It is however nearly impossible to get 100% of the people to agree with everything. For those who aren't pleased, there is a church someplace that will make them happy.

[Jeremy D. Scott]

Andy Stanley's church decided they would not adjust their church to keep people at the expense of not reaching people.

Didn't Andy Stanley start the church where he is pastor? I'm not saying his conclusion is wrong, but I'm not sure he can fully understand what the vast majority of churches and pastors deal with.

Again, this is part of the danger of trying to translate North Point, Willow Creek, Saddleback, etc. to Fargo, Des Moines, etc., especially in long-established churches.

[Jim Monck]

You are right, but he did start out as a youth pastor in his dad's church, Charles Stanley at First Baptist.

But you raise a good question!! Do we assume that Saddleback, Willowcreek, etc. started out big and never face any conflicts? Did any of them ever fear loosing a big giver, offending a key family or did they simply always have people that just wanted to do what everyone else did?

I sometimes think maybe the greatest value these churches offer us is good excuses. We are not as big, have as much money, as good a music program, enough staff. Do we find ourselves using there basic principles or our basic excuses.

Now personally I do believe God in some special way raises up some preachers and some ministries beyond what we can understand. I would say that but I'm not a Calvinist so it can't be true, but is my original question valid?

Now for those of you who like my kinder gentler side that doesn't ask so many probing questions; I have a new granddaughter that will be born next Wednesday at noon.

[Barb Bouldrey]

It depends on how much power a complainer has and has been allowed to have.

When a complainer is a loud complainer and gets others on his/her side of the complaint then the problem has to be confronted.

If it is one person so constantly expresses their dissatifaction with something and no one else complains, you just have to ignore him/her.


It just comes down to how much power the complainer has...or is allowed to have.

Barb

[Glenn Messer]

Well, I'll try again. I had just written a nice reply...then I hit the wrong button and sent it into the eternal wasteland of technology! It's gone and I don't know where it's at!

Jim, I think Jeremy was simply trying to denote the differences between being the pastor of an old historically established church and being the founding pastor of your present church and the benefits that come with that. The church's will reflect your passion, vision, leadership, and personality. You will have recognized ownership in the church.

Historically, old established Nazarene churches have a history of multiple short term pastors . . . and all of the problems that go with that. It is not unusual for there to be no clear mission vision, no sense of mission purpose, and, hence, no spiritual motivation. Unless a pastor is committed to stay a long time (?? years?), he or she may not be perceived as having ownership in the church. The laity are not usually bad people, but have become used to short term leadership with no cohesive continuance. As one layman said to me (in a friendly conversation), "Preachers come and go, but we're always here." In situations like this, the decision to accommodate a complaint -- or not, may actually be driven by key laypersons. I'm not saying that's the way it should be, but that's often the way it is. Knowing what I think?? I know today, I would go back to my first church (I was the founding pastor) and stay put for a lot longer than 4 years!

As to your question, I believe that if the church has established clear ministry
vision, purpose, and direction and is effectively equipping itself to pursue those goals successfully, then someone's personal discomfort or frustration (complaints) should not be accommodated just to keep them. If your key laymen have bought into your spiritual leadership, often they will shield you from unfounded complaints.

A humorous aside: I once announced to my congregation that from that day onward no one in the church was authorized to deal with any complaints other than the pastor. If someone comes to you with a complaint, tell them that you are not authorized to listen; take it to the pastor. A few days later, the 4 year old son of one of my fine laymen was unhappy and whining. His dad said, "Son, I'm not authorized to listen to any whining. If you want to whine, you'll have to go to the pastor!" Fortunately, Mom handled it.

[Glenn Messer]

Oh, I forgot, Jim. I have a grandson is presently (as I type) in the process of being born. Don't know the name, but I do know that he will be #9. Sometimes I feel like I'm getting old!

[Kevin Rector]

How much should a church adjust it's program to keep those that complain?

This is a question that really can only be answered concretely in a concrete context. Every church is different.

However, I do have some thoughts in my head about this issue:

People who complain to gain or maintain control should not only be ignored they should be marginalized as they are toxic to a body of faith.

I have a pastor friend who went to pastor a church. When he got there one of the guys told him, "just so you know, I'm the one who runs this church". He was the largest donor (by far) and had a permanent seat on the board as well as a collection of cronies. My friend said, "no you don't." My friend would not allow his name to be on the ballot for the board the next year. Eventually after a lot of bluster this guy left and started his own church (non-Nazarene).

Imagine a pastor with the gumption to actually stand up to the carnal people who want to control God's church. By the way, after he left the church had explosive growth and something like 35 people ended up going to into ministry out of that church in 14 years.

One of the surest ways to kill a church (or at least to keep it only limping along as a shadow of what it could be) is to have a pastor that will not lead or to have a congregation that will not allow the pastor to lead and refuses to follow.

Pastors need to know their people and they need to hear and integrate the legitimate issues. But ultimately the pastor must lead and the people must follow. If the pastor is too intimidated to cast a vision there is no way for the people to catch that vision, and where there is no vision the church will truly perish.

I hope that it goes without saying that all of the above is said with the understanding that the pastor must first and foremost love their people, so the pastor can't power trip either.