The value of NazNet to the denomination

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

I’ve been rereading J.B. Chapman’s “Bud Robinson A Brother Beloved” which was written not long after the passing of, probably the most famous Nazarene (at least before James Dobson) who has ever lived. It is an inspirational book and I highly recommend it.
Bud Robinson traveled back and forth across America preaching in Camp Meetings, conventions, revivals, and special services. It is estimated that more than 100,000 people came to Christ under his ministry. Even in his final years he remained in great demand and said, ‘Everybody wants me to take a long rest – just after I come for a meeting with them.”

I think Bud Robinson and other traveling evangelists “evened out” the Nazarenes. Everybody heard these popular evangelists. When they came to town they brought the latest news and they preached the doctrines of the Church. People who were pulling this way or that from the core doctrines of the church heard the basics all over again and were brought back to main stream. Pastors and laypeople alike came to understand core beliefs, like entire sanctification, in the same way. They even used the same terms, all schooled by the evangelists.

And the evangelists kept each other in line. In Camp Meetings there were generally 2 or 3 evangelists who took turns preaching. They listened to one another and discussed the finer points of their theology with not only each other, but with other preachers and laymen as they sat in the dining halls. This also kept the teaching of the church pretty much on the same page.

Get this: I am not about to say that their doctrine was perfect, nor am I about to make a case that we go back to having two two-week revivals a year plus a couple of weeks of camp meeting. I am simply saying that it was these well-known and beloved evangelists who defined what Nazarenes believed.

Changes in culture have made camp meetings only a shadow of what they once were. They have also diminished revival in the local church. I am not writing now to make a case for either one, but I do believe that these institutions shaped the Church of the Nazarene – and kept it in a specific shape “doctrine-wise.”

Without that core of influential evangelists visiting nearly every church in the denomination once or twice a year, I think we are in danger of flying apart. I probably don’t have to keep saying this, but, again, I am not making a case for going back to the good old days – I am simply aware that the evangelists of the Church of the Nazarene for most of its existence were a unifying force.

So, what is it that makes the Church of the Nazarene “one” these days? I think attendance at one of our fine Nazarene institutions is one of those things. However, our Universities are not coming close to touching the lives of our average church attenders that the evangelists did. Also, there are still some talented and dedicated evangelists who labor on. Still, I don’t think anyone thinks they are influencing the denomination like Bud Robinson did.

Here is my idea. I think the Internet has the greatest potential of bringing Nazarenes together. An online community like NazNet is a place where the doctrines of the church can be stated and refined for the average church attender. People who are moving to the fringe find (hopefully loving) correction. Everyone has equal footing – with the small church layperson able to have in depth (for them) discussions with pastors and educators from across the denomination.

I am not saying that NazNet exists to keep some particular doctrinal approach alive, but I do think it can help the Church be united in a doctrinal approach our culture today. I don’t think NazNet always lives up to this potential, but I do think it is the potential of NazNet to help unite the voice of the Church.

[Hans Deventer]

Here is my idea. I think the Internet has the greatest potential of bringing Nazarenes together. An online community like NazNet is a place where the doctrines of the church can be stated and refined for the average church attender. People who are moving to the fringe find (hopefully loving) correction. Everyone has equal footing – with the small church layperson able to have in depth (for them) discussions with pastors and educators from across the denomination.

I am not saying that NazNet exists to keep some particular doctrinal approach alive, but I do think it can help the Church be united in a doctrinal approach our culture today. I don’t think NazNet always lives up to this potential, but I do think it is the potential of NazNet to help unite the voice of the Church.

Scott, I would love to see that happen. I have really no idea about NazNet's influence, though at times I am surprised to hear from some church leaders that they read NazNet too.

I do think it's influence is largely limited to the relatively wealthy (because they need to have a PC and an internet connection) English speaking church, either as a first or as a second language. And that is probably less than half of the church today. But even then, I really like the idea and would love to see NazNet as that unifying force.

[Mike Schutz]

I agree with Scott, and think that this deserves consideration in order to encourage access and support continued growth.

Could I offer another value to the denomination:

Over the last thirty years I have had the opportunity to spend countless hours in the homes of many pastors. Since I was there representing one of our colleges and as a speaker, but not in any position of authority, I was blessed to hear their stories, celebrations and hurts. The overwhelming themes: a strong sense of calling and purpose, sometimes accompanied by an overwhelming sense of loneliness.

Now I am a pastor.

Naznet provides me with a sense of community I do not have in my congregation. While I came to Naznet having relationships with several others who are part of our virtual family (and I am sure a collective sigh of "not him again" erupted from more than one of them), most folks I did not know. I have come to know and appreciate (dare I say love) many wonderful people here.

My lovely wife asked me a couple of weeks ago, as I sat reading a Naznet thread, "Honey, does it help?" I actually started to tear up. "It really does."

This personal testimony may not be the experience of everyone on Naznet, but it is true for me. Naznet is a blessing.

Grace and peace.

[Hal Kreps]

My lovely wife asked me a couple of weeks ago, as I sat reading a Naznet thread, "Honey, does it help?" I actually started to tear up. "It really does."

This personal testimony may not be the experience of everyone on Naznet, but it is true for me. Naznet is a blessing.

Grace and peace.

And that by itself is enough for a big BIG thank you to Dave and the moderators for providing and supporting Naznet.com

[Belinda Y. Edwards]

I don’t think NazNet always lives up to this potential, but I do think it is the potential of NazNet to help unite the voice of the Church.

i agree 100%.

[Roland Hearn]

Scott I think you have made some astute observations. It is precisely the discussion that refines what we truly believe. Very few people change ideas following one encounter but it is the ongoing process that brings a new conviction. I think the early community times did that in exactly the way you desribe. Our one challenge will always be to make this community work in the places that we have face to face relationships.

[Billy Cox]

I’ve been rereading J.B. Chapman’s “Bud Robinson A Brother Beloved” which was written not long after the passing of, probably the most famous Nazarene (at least before James Dobson) who has ever lived. It is an inspirational book and I highly recommend it.
Bud Robinson traveled back and forth across America preaching in Camp Meetings, conventions, revivals, and special services. It is estimated that more than 100,000 people came to Christ under his ministry. Even in his final years he remained in great demand and said, ‘Everybody wants me to take a long rest – just after I come for a meeting with them.”

I think Bud Robinson and other traveling evangelists “evened out” the Nazarenes. Everybody heard these popular evangelists. When they came to town they brought the latest news and they preached the doctrines of the Church. People who were pulling this way or that from the core doctrines of the church heard the basics all over again and were brought back to main stream. Pastors and laypeople alike came to understand core beliefs, like entire sanctification, in the same way. They even used the same terms, all schooled by the evangelists.

And the evangelists kept each other in line. In Camp Meetings there were generally 2 or 3 evangelists who took turns preaching. They listened to one another and discussed the finer points of their theology with not only each other, but with other preachers and laymen as they sat in the dining halls. This also kept the teaching of the church pretty much on the same page.

Get this: I am not about to say that their doctrine was perfect, nor am I about to make a case that we go back to having two two-week revivals a year plus a couple of weeks of camp meeting. I am simply saying that it was these well-known and beloved evangelists who defined what Nazarenes believed.

Changes in culture have made camp meetings only a shadow of what they once were. They have also diminished revival in the local church. I am not writing now to make a case for either one, but I do believe that these institutions shaped the Church of the Nazarene – and kept it in a specific shape “doctrine-wise.”

Without that core of influential evangelists visiting nearly every church in the denomination once or twice a year, I think we are in danger of flying apart. I probably don’t have to keep saying this, but, again, I am not making a case for going back to the good old days – I am simply aware that the evangelists of the Church of the Nazarene for most of its existence were a unifying force.

So, what is it that makes the Church of the Nazarene “one” these days? I think attendance at one of our fine Nazarene institutions is one of those things. However, our Universities are not coming close to touching the lives of our average church attenders that the evangelists did. Also, there are still some talented and dedicated evangelists who labor on. Still, I don’t think anyone thinks they are influencing the denomination like Bud Robinson did.

Here is my idea. I think the Internet has the greatest potential of bringing Nazarenes together. An online community like NazNet is a place where the doctrines of the church can be stated and refined for the average church attender. People who are moving to the fringe find (hopefully loving) correction. Everyone has equal footing – with the small church layperson able to have in depth (for them) discussions with pastors and educators from across the denomination.

I am not saying that NazNet exists to keep some particular doctrinal approach alive, but I do think it can help the Church be united in a doctrinal approach our culture today. I don’t think NazNet always lives up to this potential, but I do think it is the potential of NazNet to help unite the voice of the Church.


Comparing NazNet to itinerant evangelists in the early 20th century is a comparison that I would have never thought of, but I think it is a valid one. I believe there is great value in cross-pollinating ideas across barriers - especially geographical and socioeconomic barriers.

In terms of dialog, NazNet is far richer than anything I have experienced in a local church and that dialog has moderated many of my views while liberating some of my other views.

I also have a feeling that NazNet is widely read within the denomination since there is no better way to get a feel for the grass-roots pulse of the Church of the Nazarene.

[Anne and Dwayne Hood]

I fear that the average lay person does not read and write on Naznet. No one that I have ever spoken with about it seems interested. The church we attend is small, and mainly people that do not make big salaries, but they have computers. In fact, I have never been able to get anyone to join Naznet. It is a joy to me, but was very hard for me to adjust to when I first started posting. I was very weak and feeble from cancer, and some of the things I read upset me very badly. In fact, I have been enjoying itmuch more since I got chemo out of my system, after I quit taking chemo pills in November of 2006.
It is really not something that most of the people that attend the church we attend, and some of the COTN churches near us, would enjoy, or be able to adjust to--I don't think.

[Martijn van Beveren]

... Changes in culture have made camp meetings only a shadow of what they once were. They have also diminished revival in the local church. I am not writing now to make a case for either one, but I do believe that these institutions shaped the Church of the Nazarene – and kept it in a specific shape “doctrine-wise.”

Without that core of influential evangelists visiting nearly every church in the denomination once or twice a year, I think we are in danger of flying apart. I probably don’t have to keep saying this, but, again, I am not making a case for going back to the good old days – I am simply aware that the evangelists of the Church of the Nazarene for most of its existence were a unifying force.

So, what is it that makes the Church of the Nazarene “one” these days? I think attendance at one of our fine Nazarene institutions is one of those things. However, our Universities are not coming close to touching the lives of our average church attenders that the evangelists did. Also, there are still some talented and dedicated evangelists who labor on. Still, I don’t think anyone thinks they are influencing the denomination like Bud Robinson did.

Well, It's good to hear that you guys have evangelists... We don't so we'll just try to keep the group together, but we are under stress from many external forces. The only evangelist I've ever witnessed from the CotN was Stephen Manley (He was good. I think my dad stil receives tapes from him :) ) who was in EuNC at the Leadership conf..
I think that our pastors are the only evangelising parties here.
So having said this, I will definitly promote NazNet to the people. If their English is good enough. At this moment we are working on a structural change with our church- and districtwebsites here. There will probably a forum on it.
Still for many the step to the digital highway, and investing time in it, is a big one.


Here is my idea. I think the Internet has the greatest potential of bringing Nazarenes together. An online community like NazNet is a place where the doctrines of the church can be stated and refined for the average church attender. People who are moving to the fringe find (hopefully loving) correction. Everyone has equal footing – with the small church layperson able to have in depth (for them) discussions with pastors and educators from across the denomination.

Yup, a good way to figure out what's going on :) thx for/to Naznet!


I am not saying that NazNet exists to keep some particular doctrinal approach alive, but I do think it can help the Church be united in a doctrinal approach our culture today. I don’t think NazNet always lives up to this potential, but I do think it is the potential of NazNet to help unite the voice of the Church.

Which culture do you mean?


greetings,
Marty

[William Hunter]

As far as I know, there is no other format for Nazarenes around the world to share ideas and discussions, etc. I'm not sure who reads NN but I do know a get some supportive e-mails from "lurkers." Some of their insights are really good and need to be part of our discussions. It is too bad that at times the discussion here goes the wrong way. Maybe we can all get better at this.

Anyway, I think there is potential and significant value in this type of media for Nazarenes, or any denomination in their website, to have open and world-wide discussions if issues we all face.

For instance, Hans and I have very different views on some things, but I think that has to do with being raised in and living in, two different cultures. We do not always understand where the other is coming from, but what other easily accessable means do we have to share these ideas and try to understand each other?

I for one am very supportive of such an idea as NN being an internation forum for Nazarenes to gather and share ideas.

[Jeremy D. Scott]

As far as I know, there is no other format for Nazarenes around the world to share ideas and discussions, etc.

I wouldn't say there are no other formats. Certainly Naznet is the most extensive, the most active, and the oldest (isn't Naznet older than the Internet? :basic03)

But there are many other conversations out there:
www.emergentnazarenes.com
www.nazarenecohorts.com
nazareneroundtable.blogspot.com
sacramentalnazarenes.blogspot.com
www.crivoice.org/forums/general/index.html (not explicitly Nazarene, but many participants are Nazarene and discussions there are often centered on our doctrine)

And there are hundreds of individual blog sites where conversations happen daily. (www.nazarenecohorts.com is a good start to find these).

Here's one I wish was more active:
manualarticleten.blogspot.com

Anyway, there are lots of other conversations out there.

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

Thanks for the links Jeremy -- I hadn't heard of hardly any of them, but I have added them to my blogroll.





I wouldn't say there are no other formats. Certainly Naznet is the most extensive, the most active, and the oldest (isn't Naznet older than the Internet? :basic03)

But there are many other conversations out there:
www.emergentnazarenes.com (http://www.emergentnazarenes.com)
www.nazarenecohorts.com (http://www.nazarenecohorts.com)
nazareneroundtable.blogspot.com (http://nazareneroundtable.blogspot.com)
sacramentalnazarenes.blogspot.com (http://sacramentalnazarenes.blogspot.com)
www.crivoice.org/forums/general/index.html (http://www.crivoice.org/forums/general/index.html) (not explicitly Nazarene, but many participants are Nazarene and discussions there are often centered on our doctrine)

And there are hundreds of individual blog sites where conversations happen daily. (www.nazarenecohorts.com (http://www.nazarenecohorts.com) is a good start to find these).

Here's one I wish was more active:
manualarticleten.blogspot.com (http://manualarticleten.blogspot.com)

Anyway, there are lots of other conversations out there.

[Ron Davis]

It is too bad that at times the discussion here goes the wrong way. Maybe we can all get better at this.

.

If all we do is get better at discussing ideas then the value of Naznet is priceless. I made the point in a sermon recently that we don't argue very well in the church. Disagreements in the local setting get swept under the rug rather than resolved.

I agree with you completely here. We need to get better at this and I believe Naznet is helping.

[Marsha Lynn]

I fear that the average lay person does not read and write on Naznet. No one that I have ever spoken with about it seems interested. The church we attend is small, and mainly people that do not make big salaries, but they have computers. In fact, I have never been able to get anyone to join Naznet. It is a joy to me, but was very hard for me to adjust to when I first started posting. I was very weak and feeble from cancer, and some of the things I read upset me very badly. In fact, I have been enjoying itmuch more since I got chemo out of my system, after I quit taking chemo pills in November of 2006.
It is really not something that most of the people that attend the church we attend, and some of the COTN churches near us, would enjoy, or be able to adjust to--I don't think.

Anne, my thoughts took a similar path in response to this thread. However, as I thought about how much NazNet has changed me, I realized that the church around me is not totally unaffected.

I once had a lengthy exchange with a pastor about the "credibility gap" in how sanctification is often presented. He was totally unaware of any division in the Church of the Nazarene over the doctrine of holiness and certainly did not take my word for it that one exists and wouldn't take the word of anyone here if it were conveyed through me. There is no such division in the circles in which he circulates. He hears the exact same message from his peers and from evangelists and the D.S. and the G.S.s. Whether that is due to his hearing or their speaking is debatable, but, nonetheless, what he hears is completely unified and any different message that traces back to NazNet will only heighten his suspicions that NazNet is a dangerous place that can easily spread false doctrine to undiscerning laypeople. He's not likely to show up here looking to be taught something different from what his most revered teachers have already taught him. Rather, he attempted to explain the way more perfectly to me so that I would no longer struggle with the questions that too much time on NazNet has introduced into my thinking. (The fact that my questions predate NazNet by many years didn't matter; it was NazNet that gave legitimacy to them and allowed me to speak of them.)

And yet ... by the power of God's Spirit (and only through that power), in spite of that pastor's assessment of my views as indicative that I need further instruction, our exchange may have planted a tiny seed of questioning in his mind. And in God's kingdom, tiny seeds can grow into quite large plants under the right conditions.

Even if no one around you ever joins or reads NazNet, if you, Anne, are changed by what you encounter here, your church will be changed because your personal influence will have shifted. If you see the church in more global terms because of exchanges you have here with Hans and Martijn and Roland and others from outside North America, you will speak in more global terms and others will be impacted by your words. We simply have to believe in the "mustard seed" image of the Kingdom of God. As a little yeast permeates a large patch of dough, so, in the view Scott is proposing, the shared journey we have here on NazNet can permeate the denomination as a whole. It's easy for those of us out in the grassroots to see how firmly the old views are entrenched amongst the common people and what little influence what happens on NazNet (or in Kansas City, for that matter) has on those views. And yet, you and I have been changed here and we spend our time out in those grassroots as specks of yeast in a huge batch of dough. Perhaps we are not without influence as we go through our common days of common living.

What do you think?

Marsha

[Hans Deventer]

It's easy for those of us out in the grassroots to see how firmly the old views are entrenched amongst the common people and what little influence what happens on NazNet (or in Kansas City, for that matter) has on those views. And yet, you and I have been changed here and we spend our time out in those grassroots as specks of yeast in a huge batch of dough. Perhaps we are not without influence as we go through our common days of common living.

I wonder how long the thread would be that starts with "If it wasn't for NazNet........"

It seems I can add if not daily, certainly monthly to that list.

[Wilson L. Deaton]

I think Bud Robinson and other traveling evangelists “evened out” the Nazarenes....

So, what is it that makes the Church of the Nazarene “one” these days? I think attendance at one of our fine Nazarene institutions is one of those things.....

Here is my idea. I think the Internet has the greatest potential of bringing Nazarenes together. An online community like NazNet is a place where the doctrines of the church can be stated and refined for the average church attender....

Hmmm... I'm thinking I may write a book on this concept. I'll call it, The Church of the Nazarene is Flat.

My thesis will be that "two forces have flattened the denomination."

I can write this book if I want to because I am a "freed man."

[For those who don't "get it," see this link: http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php?t=1992]

Wilson

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

So, what is it that makes the Church of the Nazarene “one” these days? I think attendance at one of our fine Nazarene institutions is one of those things. However, our Universities are not coming close to touching the lives of our average church attenders that the evangelists did. Also, there are still some talented and dedicated evangelists who labor on. Still, I don’t think anyone thinks they are influencing the denomination like Bud Robinson did.

I think I can add another factor to evens out the denomination -- that is Nazarene General Assembly. Today, as it was back in Bud Robinson's day, GA is a big event (much bigger than it needs to be to simply carry on the business of the church). People come from around the world to celebrate the Church of the Nazarene. We all hear the same speakers and have "how to have a church service" modeled for us.

So, I now have 4 things that I believe helps bring cohesion to the denomination:
Our colleges and universities
Evangelists (and I will add, missionaries) who visit our churches
Nazarene General Assembly
The internet, where Nazarenes from around the world and across the spectrum of doctrinal thought come together to discuss and learn from one anotherFor a web site like NazNet to have a place in that list is pretty heady stuff. I don't think we are up there with GA or our Universities yet, but I think we have the potential for helping Nazarenes stay on the same page.

[Billy Cox]

I once had a lengthy exchange with a pastor about the "credibility gap" in how sanctification is often presented. He was totally unaware of any division in the Church of the Nazarene over the doctrine of holiness and certainly did not take my word for it that one exists and wouldn't take the word of anyone here if it were conveyed through me.


It wasn't long ago that the unwritten mission of the Nazarene schools was to teach students what to think. Almost without exception, the Nazarene schools now aim to teach students how to think.

If someone's college education consisted primarily of indoctrination...and they haven't branched out much since then, they will be very surprised that the Church of the Nazarene tolerates diversity of opinion on the foundational theological questions represented in our Articles of Faith. When they find out that there are differences of opinion on holiness, they are likely to raise the alarm, proclaiming that the Church of the Nazarene is in big trouble; a favorite term is 'the slippery slope.'

A more moderate theory is that the pastor you mention is accustomed to the idea that the Nazarene clergy does their theological fighting and backstabbing behind closed doors, but maintains a public facade of unity. Maybe he wasn't upset about the division as much as he was bothered by the fact that a lowly layperson knew about it.



There is no such division in the circles in which he circulates. He hears the exact same message from his peers and from evangelists and the D.S. and the G.S.s. Whether that is due to his hearing or their speaking is debatable...

I suspect that it is more a 'hearing' phenomenon.


...his suspicions that NazNet is a dangerous place that can easily spread false doctrine to undiscerning laypeople.


This is an old school idea again...that laypeople can't handle the unvarnished version of our faith. It needs to be Disneyfied so that it is abundantly obvious who are the good guys and who are the bad guys.

In the eyes of some, questions and/or doubts indicate insufficient knowledge and/or faith. In a modernist worldview, the laypeople need only know to attach tab 'A' to flange 'B' and not be concerned about slot 'C'. Laypeople are easily led astray if one gives them too much information.

One part of me is angry that any clergy view laypeople like that, but the Church is moving away from that point of view and the indoctrinated clergy is only getting smaller.

There are certainly some who view NazNet as a 'seat among the scoffers' where rabble-rousers come to vent after their local church has built a hedge of protection to put them on the outside. However, that has not been my observation with NazNet. When the occasional venting occurs, the NazNet community admonishes, corrects, rebukes...etc. in a way that, over time, builds robust relationships.

[Cindi Hammons]

'seat among the scoffers' where rabble-rousers come to vent...

Okay Billy...all I could picture were the two old guys (the hecklers) up in the balcony on The Muppet Show! So, on NazNet, who are the two old guys?


(Ducking and running......fast!)

[William Hunter]

I did not know of the other siites mentioned above. I checked them out. NN may have a broader participation and therefore offer a larger hearing for issues within the lay and clergy of the church; but I liked liked the site concerning Sacramental Nazarenes. Wish I were in an area to meet with a group of like interest. I would find that uplifting and soul stretching. I have that site bookmarked and will drink of the things offered there every few days.

[Belinda Y. Edwards]

*applauds Billy's post*

i didn't quote it because it is a long one. But, i believe totally that his observation is one of the root issues that causes so much uproar at NazNet (when there is an uproar).



Think - - for yourself instead of peer or denomination pressure/tradition


All of this is in my personal opinion, of course - but i believe the second root issue to why uproars occur is


competition on some level.



It we could get a handle on these two issues in our discussions and interactions with each other - we will be much further down the road in accomplishing greater good for the Kingdom.

Respectfully submitted -

[Jeremy D. Scott]

So, I now have 4 things that I believe helps bring cohesion to the denomination:
Our colleges and universities
Evangelists (and I will add, missionaries) who visit our churches
Nazarene General Assembly
The internet, where Nazarenes from around the world and across the spectrum of doctrinal thought come together to discuss and learn from one another

Scott -

I assume you include NTS and NBC with the first one.

I don't know if this list was in a specific order, but I would move evangelists way down the list. I don't see their ministry as having much cohesion or impact on the denomination as a whole. This is likely geographical. I spent 2.5 years at a church on the Kansas City district where, I'd unfortunately say the revivals we had seemed more nostalgic than anything else. And Kansas City doesn't even have campmeeting anymore. But here in the Northeast, the traditional evangelist is almost nonexistent. When and if a revival or campmeeting is held, it's likely a regional pastor, DS, professor, or retired pastor who's doing the speaking.

Next, alongside General Assembly might be the district assemblies. They hold a lot of impact because they are held more often. They act as a primary forum for the General church (including the initiatives of the Board of GSs).

Perhaps regular and special conferences might be included somewhere. While M3/M7 and PALCON are the big ones, we all know the regional and district conferences that become breeding ground for all sorts of initiatives and programs.

Lastly, I think that I'd say the internet has even more impact than we even realize. I have no idea what my ministry or mindset would look like if not for all the reading I do on numerous blogs out there and even Naznet.

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

I assume you include NTS and NBC with the first one.

Yes, I am thinking of all the institutions of the church -- I think they have a unifying impact on the church

No specific order though.

I don't know if this list was in a specific order, but I would move evangelists way down the list. I don't see their ministry as having much cohesion or impact on the denomination as a whole. This is likely geographical.

I think you are right -- in my first post I acknowledged that, while we have some fine evangelists that I doubt anyone would contend that they have the same influence over the denomination as a whole that Bud Robinson and his contemporaries did.

And I agree that to a diminishing degree the assemblies and other gatherings share in the value of the General Assembly in uniting the denomination.

Lastly, I think that I'd say the internet has even more impact than we even realize. I have no idea what my ministry or mindset would look like if not for all the reading I do on numerous blogs out there and even Naznet.

Yes, I agree...NazNet has had a similar impact on my thinking.

[Billy Cox]

Should I be worried that I thought of two with no effort? :)

[Scott Hilton]

I can tell you that I feel blessed to have a site like naznet. I, unlike a lot of you, have not been raised in a church environment, let alone a Nazarene setting. I have been in the faith for 2 years now, with the first 9 months being at a SBC church. My family left that one and have found a loving home at a Nazarene church and I also have a church that has a doctrine I agree with now!

I enjoy reading and learning more on apologetics and theology, I also realize not all people do. We have some intelligent and well spoken people in our church, but those are also the people who tend to be very involved with the church. So it can be a bit of a struggle to gain personal interaction with questions I may have about some topics pertaining to our theological understandings. I am a moderator on another messageboard, but it is an open denom. site and I normally get calvinistic responses to my thoughts. Not that I think that is bad, but it is nice to have a "safe haven" where I can go to know I am at least with people who view things from generally the same direction as I. It has been a blessing to me to be able to come here and read through topics directly related to the doctrines I find closest to what I read in the scriptures.

I have done searches for aplogetics pages for the more classical arminiansim beliefs but normally end up with search results for a calvinist refuting them. It seems like those in the Calvin/reformed theology have countless sites of apologetics/theological teachings and the classic arminianism is scarce, so when I have questions, it is nice to have a site like this, that I know I can come to and get some insight into my questions.

So, at least for this laymen, this site has been a blessing and a place I can come to learn more about my own denomination and its teachings.

God bless
Scott

[Brad Mercer]

I have done searches for aplogetics pages for the more classical arminiansim beliefs but normally end up with search results for a calvinist refuting them. It seems like those in the Calvin/reformed theology have countless sites of apologetics/theological teachings and the classic arminianism is scarce, so when I have questions, it is nice to have a site like this, that I know I can come to and get some insight into my questions.

Although Wesley was very systematic in his thinking, he was also very pragmatic and experiential. His followers leading up to the Church of the Nazarene tended to be even more experiential in their orientation. They experienced and observed something remarkable in their own and others' encounters with God, and then they looked for an explanation for it.

Calvinism on the other hand, at least it seems to me, is much more abstractly intellectual and systematic in it's origin. They build an impressive systematic theology from foundational assumptions about God and scripture, and then have to work very hard to maintain and defend it, and make it jibe with experience.

Both orientations probably have their own strengths and weaknesses, but I think that's one reason Calvinists are bigger into apologetics than Wesleyan-Arminians are. And, of course, other than the United Methodists, there aren't really a whole lot of folks claiming a Wesleyan-Arminian heritage, and even fewer claiming an Arminian heritage that doesn't go through Wesley, so in a sense, they simply have us outnumbered.

I think our views are more amenable to the experience of humanity, though, which should give us an edge in trying to communicate with the broader culture.

Brad

[Linda Schroller]

I cannot address NazNet's value to the denomination, but it sure is valuable to me!! I am a former Nazarene who due to geographic relocation and family issues is currently attending a non-Naz community church.

I order myself Naz. ss material and the standard, read Holiness Today on line (my fingers SO want to type Herald of Holiness!), order toddler ss materials for my dgd, and use my Wesley study Bible. You folks are, at the moment, my "small group" or ss class where I can come and read and find the kind of interactions, albeit to a limited degree, I would find in a local Naz. church. You help me keep my theology straight and challenge me to keep my relationship with Jesus fresh, not yesterday's news.

Maybe someday I will have the awesome privilege of worshipping in a Nazarene church every Sunday. Until then, connections such as this are simply priceless.

And, they help those of us currently "elsewhere" due to the Lord's gracious leading find "food" to sustain us on our "mission field."

You really do spread the influence of the denomination past the door of the local church.

[Jim Franklin]

Thank you, Scott for your most constructive post for the purpose of unifying our communion. It is impossible to really have communion or unity without communication. By serving in your capacity under Dave's sponsorship it is not a difficult leap to recognize that NazNet can serve a similar purpose to Bud Robinson and other evangelists of our earlier days and none of the NN leadership even look like Bud Robinson. Well maybe Dave is trying to do so.

The one thing I would want to make sure of and that is in sharing our views and accepting each other in unity that the doctrine of second blessing scriptural holiness does not get "watered down" to the point that is as Dr. Chapman feared "just a theory rather than a heartfelt-life changing experience." That is the basis of our foundation as a denomination and without it we could drift apart and become separated.

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

none of the NN leadership even look like Bud Robinson. Well maybe Dave is trying to do so.


Thanks for the note Jim -- the line I quoted got a chuckle from me! Here's Bud Robinson -- do you think Dave is going for that look?

[Jim Franklin]

Scott, my dad had Bud Robinson come for services at at least two different churches that I recall him mentioning, Meridian, ID and Baker, OR. At Meridian the church was so crowded that one of the young men sat on an open window sill (before AC, of course) and dozed off and fell out on the ground and just like Paul in the Bible was revived when Bud came out and prayed over him. At Baker, dad took him to see a home bound parishioner in the mountains and when they came to a sign that read, "Winding Road" Bud said, "Brother Watts (my dad's name was Watson Franklin) I am sure glad they put that sign there or I would have thought it was a "crooked road." We had a good portrait of "Uncle Bud" in our home similar to the one you posted. Our family had the recording of his "Hospital Experience," which we played quite often. Many fond memories of my dad's recollections of the beginning of the Church of the Nazarene.

Dad recollected that the newsreporters in New York City voted Bud Robinson in his picturesque phrases and illustrations as "more original" than Will Rogers. So for his time he had considerable national notice. In his writings for the Hearld of Holiness he would peck away on a typewriter and when he came to the end would put in a bunch of punctuation marks with the request that the young ladies at the publishing house put them in wherever they were needed and correct his spelling.

Let's see what Dave's response is.

Now you got me to reminiscing so I better get over to that forum.

[Gina Stevenson]

Our family had the recording of his "Hospital Experience," which we played quite often. Many fond memories of my dad's recollections of the beginning of the Church of the Nazarene.

My Grandma had this LP, so I ended up with it, when I was given a lot of her books that the kids didn't apparently want. 'Think I still have this LP, tho' I have yet to hear it. One of these fine days .... ;)

[Dave McClung]

Scott, my dad had Bud Robinson come for services at at least two different churches that I recall him mentioning, Meridian, ID and Baker, OR. At Meridian the church was so crowded that one of the young men sat on an open window sill (before AC, of course) and dozed off and fell out on the ground and just like Paul in the Bible was revived when Bud came out and prayed over him. At Baker, dad took him to see a home bound parishioner in the mountains and when they came to a sign that read, "Winding Road" Bud said, "Brother Watts (my dad's name was Watson Franklin) I am sure glad they put that sign there or I would have thought it was a "crooked road." We had a good portrait of "Uncle Bud" in our home similar to the one you posted. Our family had the recording of his "Hospital Experience," which we played quite often. Many fond memories of my dad's recollections of the beginning of the Church of the Nazarene.

Dad recollected that the newsreporters in New York City voted Bud Robinson in his picturesque phrases and illustrations as "more original" than Will Rogers. So for his time he had considerable national notice. In his writings for the Hearld of Holiness he would peck away on a typewriter and when he came to the end would put in a bunch of punctuation marks with the request that the young ladies at the publishing house put them in wherever they were needed and correct his spelling.

Let's see what Dave's response is.

Now you got me to reminiscing so I better get over to that forum.

Among the prized possessions that my mother left to me is a personal post card from Uncle Buddy to her. It is in his own handwriting. I value it.

I haven't posted a recent picture. This is the part of the year that I remain clean shaven. Perhaps I will look more like Uncle Buddy in the fall when my beard has regrown.

Dave