Consumer debt and Christianity

[Dale Cozby]

I was reading today, that of the divorces in the US, 80% cite financial troubles as the main cause for the divorce.

The January 2007 consumer debt was rising at a rate of 3.25% a year. Non-revolving credit is rising at a rate of 4.5% a year.

Are we borrowing ourselves into a form of slavery?

How often does your church teach a course on Christian finance or money managment?

I am sure this topic has been discussed over the years, but I haven't seen a thread about it since I have been here, so feel free to put your thoughts, suggestions and theology about stewardship and borrowing here.

How many of the follwing do you owe?
Mortgage, Car loan, second car loan, vacation home/RV/timeshare, credit card(s), school loans, business loans, etc...

What do you think is the cause of all this borrowing?

Ok, my thoughts. My wife and I are making the effort to live "beneath our means" as it were, in order to actually live "within our means". It is our plan to reduce our lifestyle in such a way as to get out of debt completely and have come up with a plan to do so.

[Cindi Hammons]

How often does your church teach a course on Christian finance or money managment?

Not often enough...in fact, never in the 15 years I have attended.


How many of the follwing do you owe?
Mortgage, Car loan, second car loan, vacation home/RV/timeshare, credit card(s), school loans, business loans, etc...

We live on one income, and have since I quite my job 3 years ago. I won't go into detail of our financial situation, but we have very little consumer debt, other than our home and my school loan (while working on my M.A.). It hasn't been easy, but it has been important to us not to live under the weight of debt.

What do you think is the cause of all this borrowing?

Americans (and probably Canadians and Western Europeans as well) spend way, way, way more than needed. I'm amazed by people I know who go to the mall weekly to buy clothes, or eat out almost every evening! People spend because of our commercial society and habit.

New cars every two years, bigger and "better" homes, multiple credit cards charged to the max, bigger and more expensive vacations just to keep up with the Jones'. The part that worries me is, what are we teaching the young people? Have they ever had their parents say "No" to their wants? Our H.S. parking lots are filled with new cars and trucks with the parents footing the bill. I know someone who buys their kids a "prize" every time they are good while doing the family shopping at Wal-Mart? Huh? Whatever happened to being good because it was the thing to do...not to get a prize! These things become bad when one is purchasing these things on credit. Hey, if you have the money to blow, go for it! :fav18

And then, honestly, who can blame people when credit card companies send checks for $10K dollars that just need a signature? Don't you think that is tempting to the family that is struggling to make ends meet? I remember when only the wealthy people had credit cards. My how things have changed.

On the other hand, if people didn't spend money, there would be workers out of a job. So, what do you do?

[Billy Cox]

I was reading today, that of the divorces in the US, 80% cite financial troubles as the main cause for the divorce.

The January 2007 consumer debt was rising at a rate of 3.25% a year. Non-revolving credit is rising at a rate of 4.5% a year.

Are we borrowing ourselves into a form of slavery?

How often does your church teach a course on Christian finance or money managment?

I am sure this topic has been discussed over the years, but I haven't seen a thread about it since I have been here, so feel free to put your thoughts, suggestions and theology about stewardship and borrowing here.

How many of the follwing do you owe?
Mortgage, Car loan, second car loan, vacation home/RV/timeshare, credit card(s), school loans, business loans, etc...

What do you think is the cause of all this borrowing?

Ok, my thoughts. My wife and I are making the effort to live "beneath our means" as it were, in order to actually live "within our means". It is our plan to reduce our lifestyle in such a way as to get out of debt completely and have come up with a plan to do so.


Our church has sponsored three rounds of 'Financial Peace University' - a program produced by Dave Ramsey. One of the most vivid illustrations that Dave Ramsey uses is the image of a kid screaming in the grocery store because he/she HAS TO HAVE a candy bar or some trinket. His point is that even as adults, we frequently want whatever is just out of reach and we want it NOW.

[Gary Swartzlander]

Our church offers financial help classes on a quarterly basis, as we do with other classes we suggest (some are required, not all) people take before considering joining the church.

[Dave McClung]

I was reading today, that of the divorces in the US, 80% cite financial troubles as the main cause for the divorce.

The January 2007 consumer debt was rising at a rate of 3.25% a year. Non-revolving credit is rising at a rate of 4.5% a year.

Are we borrowing ourselves into a form of slavery?

How often does your church teach a course on Christian finance or money managment?

I am sure this topic has been discussed over the years, but I haven't seen a thread about it since I have been here, so feel free to put your thoughts, suggestions and theology about stewardship and borrowing here.

How many of the follwing do you owe?
Mortgage, Car loan, second car loan, vacation home/RV/timeshare, credit card(s), school loans, business loans, etc...

What do you think is the cause of all this borrowing?

Ok, my thoughts. My wife and I are making the effort to live "beneath our means" as it were, in order to actually live "within our means". It is our plan to reduce our lifestyle in such a way as to get out of debt completely and have come up with a plan to do so.

I have to admit that I was slow in coming around on the issue of personal debt being a spiritual issue, but I am now a believer. I believe that many people are in the position that they can not respond to opportunities to be generous without defaulting on their obligations to their creditors. I believe the inability to respond generously to the needs of others seriously inhibits ones ability to be an effective Christian.

I testify that some of the greatest joys that come from being a Christian are in responding to the opportunites that God sends our way. I just completed the "charitable giving" portion of our tax return for last year. It was fun to read down the list and remember all the times last year that we were able to respond to needs of others. If one is up to their ears in debt, they can't respond.

I believe that one reason that churches have been slow to address the issue of personal debt is because most of our clergy live in debt. Most pastors enter the ministry with large amounts of educational debit. Churches don't pay pastors enough to cover basic living costs and service the debt so the debt grows over time. It is difficult for one who is on the brink of bankruptcy to provide much leadership in this area. The only solution to this problem is for churches to increase the compensaiton of their pastors.

So, I agree with you that living debt free is a goal to which all Christians should aspire, but I don't think it is helpful to heap guilt on members of the clergy concerning the debt that they carry. In many cases, there just isn't much other choice.

[David Pettigrew]

"Make all you can, save all you can, give all you can" - John Wesley's economic triplet.

This is a matter of stewardship. Wesley's theology was very practical. What you believe about God must affect your daily life, including your pocketbook. In other words, being savers rather than spenders is in our theological DNA!

We can't save or give if we're loaded down with monthly notes, interest payments, and late charges.

I preach about a four week stewardship series once a year during ordinary time, and try to include a sermon on a Christian's guide to personal finance. I think our church could do a lot more, though.

dp

[Billy Cox]

I believe that one reason that churches have been slow to address the issue of personal debt is because most of our clergy live in debt. Most pastors enter the ministry with large amounts of educational debit. Churches don't pay pastors enough to cover basic living costs and service the debt so the debt grows over time. It is difficult for one who is on the brink of bankruptcy to provide much leadership in this area. The only solution to this problem is for churches to increase the compensaiton of their pastors.

I have been mulling this over and I agree that debt is a factor, but I have a feeling that many pastors, both young and old, have an unhealthy attitude when it comes to money and wealth.

I offer as evidence the fact that most pastors only speak about money when the church needs more of it.

Instead of coveting the money that laypeople spend on cars and houses, pastors should really bang the drum against paying 18-30% interest on credit card balances - which in essence is the cost of having stuff that we couldn't afford at the time of purchase.

[Billy Cox]

"Make all you can, save all you can, give all you can" - John Wesley's economic triplet.

This is a matter of stewardship. Wesley's theology was very practical. What you believe about God must affect your daily life, including your pocketbook. In other words, being savers rather than spenders is in our theological DNA!



Yeah, but Wesley was a grouchy, misogynous joyless old cuss.

Enjoy:
http://ship-of-fools.com/Features/frameit.htm?1003/wesley.html

[Mark Doble]

Owe no man nothing...

So if you have a debt and the agreement is to a monthly payment, you do not owe anything if you pay that monthly total, except for the initial loan.

Living in a commuter community it is not possible for us to be debt free. The weight of two vehicles weighs heavily on my finances. Moving closer to work is not a option as house prices are like $350,000.000! Renting costs more and you end up with zilch in the end. So what I save on one end, I spend more on, on the other end.

I really do not know how to dig myself out. Although I do see the light at the end of the tunnel. I think that is the only good thing about debt. :basic04

[Sara Sheppard]

Currently, our church is offering the Dave Ramsey Financial Peace University on Wed. nights. It is about a 13 week course. I should take it but I'm not. ;)

Sara

[Mark Doble]

I am teaching my kids about financial responsibilities now. Nikki is 7 and Mike 16, I have been teaching him since he was 5... I am proud of the way he appreciates money.

Nikki on the other hand, well, a work still in process... :basic05
Gotta pray for wisdom...

[Sara Sheppard]

One thing (among millions) I wish the government would do but probably won't..ha ha is for college students who are receiving any kind of government assistant (gov't scholarship or gov't loan) they can not get any credit card debt. In other words, scholarships and student loans would both be listed on your credit report. If you apply for a credit card - you get declined based on your status of being on government assistance for education.

I remember in college getting multiple credit card offers a week when I had NO job. They were only for $200-500 each but if you get 5 or 6 of those, well do that math. A young person can amass a fortune in non-educational debt while in college.

I'll compile my list of other things I wish the gov't would do but probably won't in another thread. LOL

Sara

[Sara Sheppard]

I guess I should go on to say that in the grand scheme of things, I really prefer for less government involvement, however, for the average 18-22 year old, I don't think they understand the bad pattern and bad foundation they are building for their life. So, this government interference would hopefully be helpful in the long run.

Sara