Questioning the Articles of Faith

[Randy Wise]

I think you need to demonstrate with scripture clarity that the baptism of the Holy Spirit you speak of is a 2nd work of grace and is not the same as the promised Holy Spirit poured out on the believers in Christ Jesus. Because anything other than this is confusing to me. I also think with that 2nd work you continue to teach about is that you would have to demonstrate with scripture clarity how one is not sanctified completely by receiving the promised Holy Spirit. The scriptures states the gift of the Holy Spirit is poured out to "all people" and Gods sons and daughters will prophesy. This shows that anyone that has the promised Holy Spirit can be used for works by God and makes no mention of a further gift required to be completed devoted to God. In acts the jews asked "what should we do" when confronted with the truth on who Jesus was and is and the apostles answered "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call."

Where do you find instruction to seek another Gift from our Lord? If above is what you teach is a second work than what do you teach as the first work?

Randy

[Wilson L. Deaton]

I think you need to demonstrate with scripture clarity that....

No, actually we don't. At least now here and now. This thread isn't about convincing you and the rest of the world that we are right. This thread is about Nazarenes discussing discussing amongst ourselves how we express our own beliefs.

Because anything other than this is confusing to me..... Where do you find instruction to seek another Gift from our Lord? If above is what you teach is a second work than what do you teach as the first work?


You have proven repeatedly that you are not here seeking knowledge. You have amply indicated that you are not here to learn. You have indicated that you already know the "truth" and you happily dispense it. Vast precedence indicates that these questions you are asking are not designed for you gain understanding of our position. They are but bait for further argument.

You seem to be here with an agenda attack our position and create dissension. The reasons are not clear to me. (I cannot see your heart, just your actions.) Perhaps you just enjoy the intellectual challenge of good debate and simply prefer NazNet to some chess site. Perhaps you are noble and truly think we are heretics that need straightening out... Why you do it is between you and God.

Meanwhile, as for me, I will not be drawn in again.

What denomination are you affiliated with? No answer? Neither will I answer your question.

Wilson

[William Hunter]

I agree, Randy. Thanks Hans for this interesting idea for discussion, and important discussion. I wish we could all sit down in the same place with the material before us and work it out.

Anyway, I am dealing more and more with post-moderns where I live and minister. I find that even those in mid-life are facing life like post-moderns and are asking some hard questions. The fact is, unless I can prove something Scripturally, they do not buy it. That is why I cannot approach tithing and budget paying from the usual ways I have over more than 32 yrs. of ministry. I can sell almost anything if we can go to God's Word and discuss it and come to see the insight in it.

We have got to come to the place where we use Biblical terms and definitions. The idea of a few years ago that we must find other terms to use than Biblical terms to expalin Biblical concepts, etc., does not work with post-moderns. They are not adverse to Biblical terms, in fact demand that we use them so we all understand an issue and have the same basis for discussion and insight.

I am for reshaping our faith statements to the use of Biblical terms and clear and concise explanations that people can understand.




I think you need to demonstrate with scripture clarity that the baptism of the Holy Spirit you speak of is a 2nd work of grace and is not the same as the promised Holy Spirit poured out on the believers in Christ Jesus. Because anything other than this is confusing to me. I also think with that 2nd work you continue to teach about is that you would have to demonstrate with scripture clarity how one is not sanctified completely by receiving the promised Holy Spirit. The scriptures states the gift of the Holy Spirit is poured out to "all people" and Gods sons and daughters will prophesy. This shows that anyone that has the promised Holy Spirit can be used for works by God and makes no mention of a further gift required to be completed devoted to God. In acts the jews asked "what should we do" when confronted with the truth on who Jesus was and is and the apostles answered "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call."

Where do you find instruction to seek another Gift from our Lord? If above is what you teach is a second work than what do you teach as the first work?

Randy

[William Hunter]

I needed to clarify my agreement with Randy in that we need to use biblical terms in trying to describe our faith statements. I think this will be a good discussion if it stays on task. Thanks, Wilson, for making a clear observation concerning some of Randy's remarks. But I do think we need a more biblical description and a clearer and concise statement ofour various beliefs.




No, actually we don't. At least now here and now. This thread isn't about convincing you and the rest of the world that we are right. This thread is about Nazarenes discussing discussing amongst ourselves how we express our own beliefs.



You have proven repeatedly that you are not here seeking knowledge. You have amply indicated that you are not here to learn. You have indicated that you already know the "truth" and you happily dispense it. Vast precedence indicates that these questions you are asking are not designed for you gain understanding of our position. They are but bait for further argument.

You seem to be here with an agenda attack our position and create dissension. The reasons are not clear to me. (I cannot see your heart, just your actions.) Perhaps you just enjoy the intellectual challenge of good debate and simply prefer NazNet to some chess site. Perhaps you are noble and truly think we are heretics that need straightening out... Why you do it is between you and God.

Meanwhile, as for me, I will not be drawn in again.

What denomination are you affiliated with? No answer? Neither will I answer your question.

Wilson

[Randy Wise]

You have proven repeatedly that you are not here seeking knowledge. You have amply indicated that you are not here to learn. You have indicated that you already know the "truth" and you happily dispense it. Vast precedence indicates that these questions you are asking are not designed for you gain understanding of our position. They are but bait for further argument.

You seem to be here with an agenda attack our position and create dissension.

Wilson

Wilson, I have taken time to let a anger burn down. Vast precedence shows you are unyielding as well on several issues. I challanged/questioned the position, you questioned my motives and made the charge that my goal was to create dissention. I speak from my faith and the only motive is to speak from the truth of the matter. Granted you may claim that "what I believe to be the truth", but then that would show a different motive then what you have charged me with. As for a 2nd work of grace after the promised Holy Spirit I would state you are mistaken. I do not state "heritics".

Grace and Peace

Randy
Randy

[Hans Deventer]

As for a 2nd work of grace after the promised Holy Spirit I would state you are mistaken.

"NazNet is a site for members and friends of the Church of the Nazarene"

What are you?

[Andrea Larabee]

"NazNet is a site for members and friends of the Church of the Nazarene"

What are you?

I suppose "friends" includes Baptist, Assembly of God, Non-denominational....

'Cause we're all here. Some of us just get confused by Brother Wesley's beliefs. Praise God I am a genuine child of His. It saddens me that someone with a different understanding of God's Word, or confusion of God's Word suddenly has Christians so divided against him, even though they are a Christian. I imagine it saddens the Lord's heart too. We had to leave a horrible Nazarene church that was full of darkness for a local Baptist church. It has broadened the horizons of my heart to love other believers who truly love God and are seeking truth just like the rest of us.

What's wrong with Randy giving a little challenge? If you're right, you're right. If he's right, then he's right. We should allow the Holy Spirit to teach us Truth, just as Jesus said.

God bless everyone of us.

~A

[Hans Deventer]

I suppose "friends" includes Baptist, Assembly of God, Non-denominational....

Yes, and beyond. A friend is not defined by denomination but by attitude.

What's wrong with Randy giving a little challenge? If you're right, you're right. If he's right, then he's right. We should allow the Holy Spirit to teach us Truth, just as Jesus said.

Well, there are two answers. For the first one, read Wilson's post in this thread. That answers the question "what's wrong with the way Randy is challenging".

The answer to the second one, "what's wrong with giving a little challenge" (BTW, I totally disagree the challenge is "little") is that in this specific case the discussion is NOT about whether or not there is such an event as we still call entire sanctification, it is HOW we in the CotN define it best. I thought that was obvious. Hence the title, "Revisioning Article X". If you're not a member, decency would require at least some politeness.

I for instance I have no urge whatsoever to go to a Baptist forum to proclaim that nothing but a confession of faith is needed for membership. Let them discuss that among themselves, and let us discuss entire sanctification. As soon as they invite me, I'm happy to share my perspective.

I think this is the mistake that has caused anti-Semitism. Jesus was at times very critical towards His own people, as were the prophets before Him. But it makes a world of difference if one is talking to one's own people, or if you are criticizing as an outsider. So when non-Jews started picking up the words Jesus said in a Jewish discussion, things went terribly wrong.

NazNet has been and always will be a Nazarene friendly site. That does not mean we allow only Nazarenes to post, on the contrary. Some long time NazNetters have never been or are no longer Nazarenes. No problem. But you have to understand that your position as such is different. I think Barbara Moulton is one of the best examples. Currently a minister in the Wesleyan Church, she is always aware of that fact when writing on NazNet. That made it possible to even appoint her as moderator.

Bottom line: it comes down to common sense of what you can and what you cannot do, and how to do it. Call it politeness if you like. Once you have that, there is lots of room on NazNet.

[Gina Stevenson]

"NazNet is a site for members and friends of the Church of the Nazarene"

What are you?

This reminds me [as I hijack this thread for just a moment, then get back to the main topic]: Dave, the license plate holder just says, "Naznet." Recalling how it's been mentioned that someone saw "Naz"net & tho't it was short for "Naz-i" rather than "Naz-arene,' might be nice to put something like the above statement on the bottom of it. 'Wouldn't want someone with a Naznet license holder to have their vehicle smashed by someone ignorantly thinking this way re "Naz," too (since one doesn't normally have a computer handy when out & about seeing license plate holders, & there are many enraged people these days, it seems).

OK, back to the topic ... Randy, how about Acts 19:2? The believers are asked, "Have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed?" (KJV, this is). Well, they could not first become believers without the help of the Holy Spirit, as we're also told in Scripture that we only come via His drawing, right?

So, if he's asking those (who've already received such help/drawing from the Holy Spirit, meaning He's resident) if they've received Him, and they answer that they've not yet even heard of that, then this seems to be an indication that he's speaking of a necessary giving-control-over-to the HS that one might not even realize until a bit after salvation, anyway, sometimes---once trying to live such a life in their own power, and failing. Those serious about maintaining such a relationsihp/existence would then be ready to accept this "more" that is being asked of them in Acts 19:2.

[BTW, my first "real song" was written during an Acts 19:2 sermon; pastor at that time ("eons" ago ;)) liked the song, so he "forgave me" for turning my attention from his sermon for a few minutes to write it.] ;)

[Billy Cox]

I agree, Randy. Thanks Hans for this interesting idea for discussion, and important discussion. I wish we could all sit down in the same place with the material before us and work it out.

Anyway, I am dealing more and more with post-moderns where I live and minister. I find that even those in mid-life are facing life like post-moderns and are asking some hard questions. The fact is, unless I can prove something Scripturally, they do not buy it. That is why I cannot approach tithing and budget paying from the usual ways I have over more than 32 yrs. of ministry. I can sell almost anything if we can go to God's Word and discuss it and come to see the insight in it.

We have got to come to the place where we use Biblical terms and definitions. The idea of a few years ago that we must find other terms to use than Biblical terms to expalin Biblical concepts, etc., does not work with post-moderns. They are not adverse to Biblical terms, in fact demand that we use them so we all understand an issue and have the same basis for discussion and insight.

I am for reshaping our faith statements to the use of Biblical terms and clear and concise explanations that people can understand.

Postmoderns are quick to distrust institutional authority. That distrust is compounded when an authority (a pastor or denomination) 'finds' scriptural support that is not immediately apparent without alot of logical gymnastics.

Baby boomers (age 43-62) had modernist teachers, but as a group they are by no means universally modernist.

[Dale Cozby]

"NazNet is a site for members and friends of the Church of the Nazarene"

What are you?Hans, with all due respect. I have seen Nazarenes in here get railed on for taking an unpopular position(within the Naznet community that is) and seen people who are obviously not Nazarenes nor even really a "friend" of this community, but rather a person with an agenda far removed from discussing the Nazarene doctrinal positions come in here for a few posts get treated with kindness, gentleness and acceptance.

I would ask that if we are going to allow non-Christians in here with thier obviously sinful agendas to be treated with kindness and gentleness then we can treat a brother who holds a differing theological postion with similar courtesy.

Not naming any names, just would like to keep it friendly and not personal.:fav18

[William Hunter]

The post-moderns I deal with are not so ready to be suspicious of institutional authority, etc., providing they see truth and integrity and accountability. Mine support the demoniation budgets, even, as long as we talk in terms of Biblical tithing and just not demanding that the budget money be there. They do question the dist. budget, its unreal size, what it is uded for, etc.

I am finding many of my baby-boomers may have the chronological age of a boomer, but have the mindset of a post-modern. I do not make changes without trying to help everyone fully understand what we are going to do, etc. No surprises. An informed people are very open to new ideas and directions, at least here they are. What is scary is that they have gotten such a significant level of trust in their pastor that I can do almost anything and they accept it. I am careful not to break that trust. It is a precious thing to guard and keep clean.

Anyway, I am having a good time dealing with the demands of post-moderns for it is refreshing and challenging and they are making the church grow with some spiritual depth as well as numerically.



Postmoderns are quick to distrust institutional authority. That distrust is compounded when an authority (a pastor or denomination) 'finds' scriptural support that is not immediately apparent without alot of logical gymnastics.

Baby boomers (age 43-62) had modernist teachers, but as a group they are by no means universally modernist.

[Randy Wise]

"NazNet is a site for members and friends of the Church of the Nazarene"

What are you?

Hans, I am not your enemy. I didn't introduce the topic, but responded to the topic already introduced, which will be the case in the "theology board". I see many "good" things in the Nazarene church. I am one who would contend that Wesley saw the difference between those that lived like believers, (had the Spirit), and those that called themselves christians by "mouth" not by their lifestyle, (didn't have the spirit). I would state John mistook this as a second work of grace. As I have stated before we can live "Holy Lives" and we have been given everything we need to live holy lives (the promised Holy Spirit). We can also be temped by "desires" to do what shouldn't be done like Eve. That will always be there, but the Spirit of Christ Jesus in us helps us in our weakness.

Grace and Peace,
Randy

[Anne and Dwayne Hood]

When a person first becomes a believer, they are no where near realizing the dephs of things that they will face, and have to make decisions about. The Holy Spirit is at work in their justification, but the way we teach, is that He comes in in His fullness at the time of our full surrender to him. At the time of justification, we are forgiven for our sins, up to that moment. Then later, we are ready to ask Him to come in and help us with the root of carnality that we were born with. I will tell you about a baby that was nine months old, that had a carnal fit (so to speak) because her bottle fell out of her mouth, apparently while her parent had to check on somethig else. Nothing would make her calm down, and she would not take the bottle back, because she was so upset about it. She never took that particular bottle. She is 62 years old now, and has the Holy Spirit to help her, but she still has a very strong personality that has to be kept on the altar. Some of you may laugh about this, but she showed this over the years, wanting things her way, and refusing something, if she did not get it the moment that she wanted it. Some of us may be like that, when we first come to Christ. Some may have a personality that is so different that you do not see a great difference in them, so far as their personality is concerned, after they have accepted the infilling of the Holy Spirit into their lives. I call Dwayne a "little goody two shoes", whatever that means. He was born meak and mild. I was not. But, there are many people that never knew me before the infilling of the Holy Spirit--even though, I was such a pious personality, that I would not have purposeply done anything that I knew to be wrong. Does any of this make sense to you? We are not at a point to even begin to know how to completely surrender at the time of justification. We are more like the baby I mentioned, when temptations, and reversals, and things that upset us come our way. But, a person can get to the place that satan knows that things of the world has no allurement for us. and he may work on us in different areas of our life--even through our children, and sometimes by our children, etal.

[Randy Wise]

When a person first becomes a believer, they are no where near realizing the dephs of things that they will face, and have to make decisions about. The Holy Spirit is at work in their justification, but the way we teach, is that He comes in in His fullness at the time of our full surrender to him. At the time of justification, we are forgiven for our sins, up to that moment. Then later, we are ready to ask Him to come in and help us with the root of carnality that we were born with. I will tell you about a baby that was nine months old, that had a carnal fit (so to speak) because her bottle fell out of her mouth, apparently while her parent had to check on somethig else. Nothing would make her calm down, and she would not take the bottle back, because she was so upset about it. She never took that particular bottle. She is 62 years old now, and has the Holy Spirit to help her, but she still has a very strong personality that has to be kept on the altar. Some of you may laugh about this, but she showed this over the years, wanting things her way, and refusing something, if she did not get it the moment that she wanted it. Some of us may be like that, when we first come to Christ. Some may have a personality that is so different that you do not see a great difference in them, so far as their personality is concerned, after they have accepted the infilling of the Holy Spirit into their lives. I call Dwayne a "little goody two shoes", whatever that means. He was born meak and mild. I was not. But, there are many people that never knew me before the infilling of the Holy Spirit--even though, I was such a pious personality, that I would not have purposeply done anything that I knew to be wrong. Does any of this make sense to you? We are not at a point to even begin to know how to completely surrender at the time of justification. We are more like the baby I mentioned, when temptations, and reversals, and things that upset us come our way. But, a person can get to the place that satan knows that things of the world has no allurement for us. and he may work on us in different areas of our life--even through our children, and sometimes by our children, etal.

Those that have received the promised Holy Spirit have been given fullness in Christ and He that is in me is greater than he that is in the world. We still face the same things in life, but we are building our house on rock instead of sand. There is no instruction by the apostles to seek a 2nd gift from God. All instruction that is given states those in Christ are washed and sanctified.

Randy

[Roland Hearn]

I think you need to demonstrate with scripture clarity that the baptism of the Holy Spirit you speak of is a 2nd work of grace and is not the same as the promised Holy Spirit poured out on the believers in Christ Jesus.
Randy I am going to have a go at responding to you. I think that your tendency is to not accept anything that does not agree with your positions and you need to know going in that I will not defend my position against an attack, I have no need.
The issue isn't a scriptural basis for a second work of grace there are works in abundance that do that and I guess you may have read many of them. You don't accept them so there wouldn't be much point in going over them here. However, having said that, the phrase "second work of grace" is one that many Nazarenes are ambivalent about anyway. We aren't certain that communicates exactly what we are trying to say so you won't get many people fighting for it. It was used to describe an encounter with God of the order of the conversion experience. I doubt that is something everyone experiences so we aren't going to make a big deal about it. If you want to reject it that probably isn't going to upset anyone too much.

Because anything other than this is confusing to me. I also think with that 2nd work you continue to teach about is that you would have to demonstrate with scripture clarity how one is not sanctified completely by receiving the promised Holy Spirit.

We couldn't do that because we believe the receiving of the Holy Spirit completely is identified with sanctification. Although, we aren't all certain about that and John Wesley wasn't sure either. Generally though most Wesleyan theologians would equate the Spirit filled life with entire sanctification.


The scriptures states the gift of the Holy Spirit is poured out to "all people" and Gods sons and daughters will prophesy. This shows that anyone that has the promised Holy Spirit can be used for works by God and makes no mention of a further gift required to be completed devoted to God. In acts the jews asked "what should we do" when confronted with the truth on who Jesus was and is and the apostles answered "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call."

Where do you find instruction to seek another Gift from our Lord? If above is what you teach is a second work than what do you teach as the first work?

Randy
Well there are abundant applications of people receiving something more in scripture but the real problem is that the bible isn't systematic theology and it doesn't say anything clearly enough about this mystery. Most of what we believe is the observed experience of Christians since the first century. It becomes terribly indistinct when you try and too crisply make a systematic theology out of it but theologians are committed to doing that. I love theology and I have studied enough to be very content that the most biblically applicable theology is a Wesleyan one but that probably won't satisfy you. At the end of the day Randy if you are in a relationship with Christ where he is your all in all, where you can say with Paul, I have been crucified with Christ and it is no longer I (ego) that lives but Christ that lives in me, and in your life you find yourself gathering ever closer to a Holy God and reflecting in your relationships with others a love that is clearly divine then most Nazarenes are probably going to say.."good enough." And we probably won't try and change your theology.

[Randy Wise]

Roland, thanks for the response in grace. I found it interesting that you can believe one can enter into the Kingdom of God through the sanctifying blood of Christ Jesus and not be sanctified. I base this off your reply that you equate sanctification with a 2nd? work of grace and couldn't explain how one could receive the promised Holy Spirit and not be completely sanctified. After reviewing the age of when this teaching was introduced and that there is no clear instruction about a additional gift or work of God after the promised Holy Spirit I have indeed concluded that Wesley was in error, but would be willing to admit "unintentional error". So yes, my mind is not changed on the matter. I don't know how theology could measure sanctification or was ever meant to do so. To add to the, "mystery as you state", some state the work of sanctification can be all in one act not two. Others ponder is it just a act and if not what part is our role in the complete sanctification of the believer.

Grace and Peace,

Randy

[Hans Deventer]

Hans, I am not your enemy.

I don't know. You invaded this topic with something that simply isn't the issue, are stating on a Nazarene forum you don't believe in the key article that distinguishes us, and generally never directly answer questions (as again you didn't in your reply here). Sure looks like a very strange "friend" of the Church of the Nazarene to me.

I didn't introduce the topic, but responded to the topic already introduced, which will be the case in the "theology board".

No, you went off topic. May I quote Thomas Oord (again, as in the first post which you no doubt read)?

What I hope will transpire in the remainder of our time together is that we take the present article on entire sanctification and examine it for clues about how it should be reformulated. In the end, I hope our exercise will help us all to revision article ten in a way that is more faithful to our experiences of holiness, to the vision of John Wesley and many in the past holiness movement, and most importantly to a Wesleyan reading of the Bible.

You were simply not on topic, as I said above. Hence I moved your interpretations to a different thread. But the main problem is, you never seem to get that. You ask questions, but never answer ours. Well, I am not going to let you hijack a very serious discussion within our denomination. You have no right to do so, and apparently lack the good sense or decency to come to that conclusion yourself.

[Randy Wise]

OK, back to the topic ... Randy, how about Acts 19:2? The believers are asked, "Have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed?" (KJV, this is). Well, they could not first become believers without the help of the Holy Spirit, as we're also told in Scripture that we only come via His drawing, right?
;)

That would be the promised Holy Spirit. (regeneration I believe is the term for being born again or the rebirth experience as in acts.) This is how one enters into the kingdom of God. If anyone doesn't have the spirit they don't belong to Christ Jesus. Romans 8:9

God gives His Holy Spirit to those that obey Him. According to Jesus that obedience comes from Love. The one who is born again doesn't continue to sin as written in 1 John. There is a difference in a person who has the spirit that should be visible to those around them. Justification and sanctification are together in my mind. So if you have those that believe in a possible one act senario you can group me with them.

Randy

[Randy Wise]

I am not sure how one defines original sin as something that needs to be cleansed. I mean man has always appeared to have a stubborn heart. The state Adam and Eve were in was thay didn't know good and evil and their being naked didn't bother them. They were innocent. Eve was clearly tempted by Her desires to taste the fruit and to aquire knowledge and be like God. (that desire appeared to blind her to the command she acknowledged correctly to the serpent) After they sinned they weren't allowed to eat of the tree of life so mortality was introduced. How could one go back to not knowing good and evil and if Eve was tempted by desires in her original state I am not sure I would equate a good heart to being back to a original state in the beginning of creation. I believe God has given us more in Christ Jesus then Eve had. Sometimes I wonder with all these gifts we need to be holy how anyone under the law survived judgment prior to Jesus.

Randy




5.1. We believe that original sin, or depravity, is that corruption of the nature of all the offspring of Adam by reason of which everyone is very far gone from original righteousness or the pure state of our first parents at the time of their creation, is averse to God, is without spiritual life, and inclined to evil, and that continually. We further believe that original sin continues to exist with the new life of the regenerate, until the heart is fully cleansed by the baptism with the Holy Spirit.

[Roland Hearn]

Roland, thanks for the response in grace. I found it interesting that you can believe one can enter into the Kingdom of God through the sanctifying blood of Christ Jesus and not be sanctified. I base this off your reply that you equate sanctification with a 2nd? work of grace and couldn't explain how one could receive the promised Holy Spirit and not be completely sanctified. After reviewing the age of when this teaching was introduced and that there is no clear instruction about a additional gift or work of God after the promised Holy Spirit I have indeed concluded that Wesley was in error, but would be willing to admit "unintentional error". So yes, my mind is not changed on the matter. I don't know how theology could measure sanctification or was ever meant to do so. To add to the, "mystery as you state", some state the work of sanctification can be all in one act not two. Others ponder is it just a act and if not what part is our role in the complete sanctification of the believer.

Grace and Peace,

Randy

Well Randy I thought that might be somewhere near your response. I gave you plenty of room to hold on to your position and was fairly moderate in my assertions. Simply saying you "concluded" that one of the most recognizably brilliant men in history was in error won't dent my ability to think he wasn't. We do do in fact believe that sanctification occurs at conversion and that at conversion an individual receives all of the Holy Spirit. It isn't about dividing God up. I did assert that the phrase "2nd work of grace" wasn't a big issue to us, it does seem it is to you. I don't think you adequately know at all what we teach to sustain your position, I do think that if you are happy with your construct and feel like God has nothing more to offer you then then we will be ok with you thinking that too.

[Randy Wise]

Well Randy I thought that might be somewhere near your response. I gave you plenty of room to hold on to your position and was fairly moderate in my assertions. Simply saying you "concluded" that one of the most recognizably brilliant men in history was in error won't dent my ability to think he wasn't. We do do in fact believe that sanctification occurs at conversion and that at conversion an individual receives all of the Holy Spirit. It isn't about dividing God up. I did assert that the phrase "2nd work of grace" wasn't a big issue to us, it does seem it is to you. I don't think you adequately know at all what we teach to sustain your position, I do think that if you are happy with your construct and feel like God has nothing more to offer you then then we will be ok with you thinking that too.

Well I am gracious that you believe that we were washed, sanctified and justified by the promised Holy Spirit that Jesus and His Apostles clearly taught about. I am willing to examine instruction given in scripture that speaks on something that needs to be sought above and beyond that gift, but I can't find any in scripture. What I do see is people struggling to define and explain entire sanctification. It is a big deal to you about a work of grace above and beyond what you term regeneration. Your actions show that much. It is not my intention to offend, but to help others. It is only a concern of mine when I believe others are lead to believe in that concept and struggle with God to achieve that state. I myself am immune to something I don't accept as true. I understand your reluctance to accept my words just as you seem to state you understand how I would respond.

Randy

[Paul Whitaker]

I myself am immune to something I don't accept as true. Randy

It seems that you cannot be accepting of any part of Entire Sanctification so you would be immune to it.

Over - and out.

[Dennis Bratcher]

I myself am immune to something I don't accept as true.

Interesting. That is almost exactly the position of the Pharisees and Sadducees as they plotted to kill Jesus, who advocated something they didn't accept as true.

Doesn't leave much room for growth. Or God.

Grace and Peace,

Dennis B.

[Roland Hearn]

Randy,
I think that most people on this board admire your willingness to hang around when you so obviously disagree with so much. Part of being Wesleyan is having a catholic spirit so you keep bringing us back to a very important issue, embracing and accepting people that disagree. Can I make one suggestion though? If you didn't write so dismissively of people you would probably find the whole process of discussion went more smoothly. I for one am very happy to commune with people that disagree with me on most issues as long as there is not a sense of being attacked at every turn. Somehow you manage to do that even while you are saying you don't want to offend. I started writing in response to you on this thread because I actually admire you and I hope that being a part of this board meets some need in you rather than just an opportunity to reject people. I may be hoping in vain but I still admire your tenacity.

[Randy Wise]

Randy,
I think that most people on this board admire your willingness to hang around when you so obviously disagree with so much. Part of being Wesleyan is having a catholic spirit so you keep bringing us back to a very important issue, embracing and accepting people that disagree. Can I make one suggestion though? If you didn't write so dismissively of people you would probably find the whole process of discussion went more smoothly. I for one am very happy to commune with people that disagree with me on most issues as long as there is not a sense of being attacked at every turn. Somehow you manage to do that even while you are saying you don't want to offend. I started writing in response to you on this thread because I actually admire you and I hope that being a part of this board meets some need in you rather than just an opportunity to reject people. I may be hoping in vain but I still admire your tenacity.

Well I hope you understand that is is the issue, not you that I don't agree with and dismiss. I will try to do better.
Thanks
Randy

[Randy Wise]

Interesting. That is almost exactly the position of the Pharisees and Sadducees as they plotted to kill Jesus, who advocated something they didn't accept as true.

Doesn't leave much room for growth. Or God.

Grace and Peace,

Dennis B.

I had expected you earlier. I hope all is going well with you. Who is a Sadducee and who is a Pharisee is a matter of perspective in this issue. I could be the Jesus and you could be the one rejecting me based on what I state about the issue.

Randy

[Randy Wise]

It seems that you cannot be accepting of any part of Entire Sanctification so you would be immune to it.

Over - and out.

We further believe that original sin continues to exist with the new life of the regenerate, until the heart is fully cleansed by the baptism with the Holy Spirit.



What is the original sin that was passed to man that requires a different baptism to remove? A clean heart at regeneration but not a fully clean heart? 10/4 very clear a "fully clean heart" I guess Wesley and you are smarter than I. I have learned to be content with the Spirit Jesus has given me.
Jesus taught -As I am in the Father and the Father is in me so He would be in us and we in Him. That is the promise I see that was taught and the Spirit poured out.

Randy

[Randy Wise]

Well I have spent time surfing the net for the meaning of "Christian perfection" and I am convinced "let your light shine before men" as Jesus taught wasn't a special act obtained by God in a instant, but a command and one that is obtainable and doable by our will. We can also train ourselves to be righteous and Christian seasoning comes also hopefully with age and experience. I believe we all can say we haven't reached perfection, but keep striving for that goal. The salvation act of receiving the promised Holy Spirit is the important part. Our salvation and that Spirit does help in the putting off of the sinful nature or flesh, which is one part of Methodists to live Holy Lives as love is also one part. Methodists, or to live according to the directions of scripture to me is the same as stating "living like a believer". Many churches preach this. John W. was challenged about the gift of the Spirit even after He was a preacher and found He couldn't lie to himself. He had no evidence in his life of this new birth. John then sought the new birth experience and received the promised gift. This is as far as I can go with John as it matches scripture. This has satisfied my questions concerning that act taught by Wesley doctrine.

Randy

[Barbara Moulton]

Bottom line: it comes down to common sense of what you can and what you cannot do, and how to do it. Call it politeness if you like. Once you have that, there is lots of room on NazNet.

For example, I wouldn't go to a discussion board of a denomination that did not ordain women and challenge them about their beliefs.

[Randy Wise]

For example, I wouldn't go to a discussion board of a denomination that did not ordain women and challenge them about their beliefs.

I understand the point - but it wasn't for my benefit that I spoke up. I have been to a Nazarene Church and have witnessed spirit filled people struggle with this issue and in my mind if I feel that people are lead to seek another gift that isn't there I will speak up "if" I feel like it can benefit some. I wasn't quite as tactful as I would like to have been with the issue and need to work on that some.

Randy

[Brad Mercer]

I understand the point - but it wasn't for my benefit that I spoke up. I have been to a Nazarene Church and have witnessed spirit filled people struggle with this issue and in my mind if I feel that people are lead to seek another gift that isn't there I will speak up "if" I feel like it can benefit some. I wasn't quite as tactful as I would like to have been with the issue and need to work on that some.

Randy

We appreciate your help, of course, but have you considered going and helping the Catholics or Charismatics or Christadelphians instead? There must surely be a whole range of denominations and religions who could benefit from your helpful understanding of how wrong they are.

Brad

P.S. I just wanna be a blessing, too.

[Randy Wise]

We appreciate your help, of course, but have you considered going and helping the Catholics or Charismatics or Christadelphians instead? There must surely be a whole range of denominations and religions who could benefit from your helpful understanding of how wrong they are.

Brad

P.S. I just wanna be a blessing, too.

If I have this much trouble with the one "true" church think of the impossibility of dealing with the infidels my son. Your blessing was felt.:basic05

Randy

[Gina Stevenson]

If I have this much trouble with the one "true" church think of the impossibility of dealing with the infidels my son. Your blessing was felt.:basic05

Randy

'Hope that smiley was as much meant for the "one 'true' church" you mention up there as it was for Brad's "blessing." What I mean is that I hope y'all don't think that we think ours (Naz) is the "one (& only) 'true' church." ;)

[Hans Deventer]

What I mean is that I hope y'all don't think that we think ours (Naz) is the "one (& only) 'true' church." ;)

You are very right, Gina. The Manual says it as follows:

THE CHURCH
I. The General Church
23. The Church of God is composed of all spiritually regenerate
persons, whose names are written in heaven.

II. The Churches Severally
24. The churches severally are to be composed of such regenerate
persons as by providential permission, and by the
leadings of the Holy Spirit, become associated together for
holy fellowship and ministries.

III. The Church of the Nazarene
25. The Church of the Nazarene is composed of those persons
who have voluntarily associated themselves together
according to the doctrines and polity of said church, and who
seek holy Christian fellowship, the conversion of sinners, the
entire sanctification of believers, their upbuilding in holiness,
and the simplicity and spiritual power manifest in the
primitive New Testament Church, together with the preaching
of the gospel to every creature.

We're only a part of the General Church, and certainly not the only true part or some such.

[Randy Wise]

'Hope that smiley was as much meant for the "one 'true' church" you mention up there as it was for Brad's "blessing." What I mean is that I hope y'all don't think that we think ours (Naz) is the "one (& only) 'true' church." ;)

What "I" stated was in jest. I don't believe you believe that the Church of the Nazarene is the one true church.

Randy