Teens/Young Adults and the Church

[Mike Schutz]

In recent discussions here and various other places, we have discussed Reggie MacNeal comments concerning the failures of the institutional church.

Many of us have heard statistics that 80% - 90% of teens going through Nazarene youth programs are no longer in the church (with the only mitigating factor being attendance at a Christian institution of higher education).

So, rather than reiterate all that the church is doing or has done wrong (and worse point fingers and blame people for not doing their job - as I have seen folks do toward youth pastors, parents, KC, and others) AND rather than suggest that young people are not interested in spiritual things, AND rather than believe that the church is without hope, really is irrelevant and MacNeal was not just using hyperbole to get us to pay attention...

What do you think the church can do to be a place of relevance for young adults and older teens who, while spiritually sensitive, seem to show little interest in an intergenerational group of believers who gather together to worship, reach out in love to their community, and choose to "do life" together?

[Barb Bouldrey]

What I have been seeing in our local church of 80 people is a growing teen group with some strong spiritual leaders who are seniors in high school.

These seniors were nutured and deepened under the two youth pastors we had for a short time and they have continued to deepen even after the last youth pastor left.

What I have seen that has helped them:
1. Leadership got them involved in other areas of the church. Two teen boys do the Power Point slides for John on Sunday morning. About 6 of the teens take turns helping in children's church each Sunday. The teens ASKED to be in charge of putting messages on the outside church sign and they choose the messages.
2. We have a teen Bible study on Wednesday nights and Sunday nights. Each night begins with open gym in our full size gym.
3. We have an older adult man who had been helping several guys learn to play the electric guitar. They will soon all play the offertory on a Sunday morning, along with the pianist.
4. Two teen girls help with the praise teams and special music.
5. Our church funds the gas for the church van for all of their activities and pays a portion of their teen camp fee.
6. Once a month an adult opens their home to the teen group for SNAC...Sunday night after church.
7. The teens often set up and tear town for church dinners.
8. Our teens help with children's parties.

The most wonderful thing is happening right now. We showed "Facing the Giants" to the entire church and the first 30 minutes to the teens in their S.S. class. Now, the teens are doing the discussion lessons that go along with this wonderful Christian film. They are excited about this study and the group is growing.

Yesterday, the teacher showed the clip and the teens said, "Hey, this is Easter. What can we get from this clip about Easter." And then the teens, themselves pulled out Easter themes without using the lesson notes. The teacher was really pumped when he came out of class...and so proud of his group.

I think we need to make our teens and young adults an active part of our church NOW.

We have a couple who will be married in May and graduate from college. They are leading the Wednesday night teen Bible study. They are in their own age group cell group on Sunday nights. They are taking in and giving out....as they grow.

Maybe this is easier in a small church.

[Scott Hilton]

I don't have nearly as much church experience as what most of ya'll have, so I am coming from a limited scope. Our church has a mid-high program called "the edge". They are getting their own Praise and Worship band together, the have their own sound person etc. They have their own service and small group area in the church. However, what I sometimes wonder is if we are seperating the youth from the adults too much. Its great to have the programs for every age group, but then you have every age group being seperate. I am wondering if we are restricting the learning curve of being around the different age groups by being so compartmentalized? Our youth already seeks each other before adults for guidance as part of their generation, are we just feeding this by actively moving them to their own area in church as well?

I guess I just added more questions.....sorry

Blessings
Scott

[Hans Deventer]

However, what I sometimes wonder is if we are separating the youth from the adults too much.

Might be. But I think our primary objective would be to engage kids in the work of the kingdom, teach them to follow Jesus. Integration in the church is the next point, and an issue in which I expect the most flexibility from those are (or at least, think so) mature disciples of Christ.

Our church in Koog has a youth group that has special youth services every last Sunday of the month. They even broadcast them live. The site http://www.d-vote.nl/ is all in Dutch of course but it shows something of a group that is very much alive.

[Michael B. Ross]

Mike, you raise some good questions. I hope we soon can find answers.

I want to add a different perspective that complements yours. First, the Christianizing of youth is not the responsibility of the church or its leaders. The future faith of our youth lies on the shoulders of parents. The church can serve as a support system, but the onus is the parents.

To comment more directly on your question, I would add one idea to Barbara's insights. I think a major missing factor is one of ownership. Youth often are treated as consumers who have a choice either to buy or not. I am a strong advocate of the value of self-direction. I feel if your questions were asked of the youth, they would come up with good answers as well as an elevated commitment to the church.

In recent discussions here and various other places, we have discussed Reggie MacNeal comments concerning the failures of the institutional church.

Many of us have heard statistics that 80% - 90% of teens going through Nazarene youth programs are no longer in the church (with the only mitigating factor being attendance at a Christian institution of higher education).

So, rather than reiterate all that the church is doing or has done wrong (and worse point fingers and blame people for not doing their job - as I have seen folks do toward youth pastors, parents, KC, and others) AND rather than suggest that young people are not interested in spiritual things, AND rather than believe that the church is without hope, really is irrelevant and MacNeal was not just using hyperbole to get us to pay attention...

What do you think the church can do to be a place of relevance for young adults and older teens who, while spiritually sensitive, seem to show little interest in an intergenerational group of believers who gather together to worship, reach out in love to their community, and choose to "do life" together?

[Scott Hilton]

Hans,

I would agree with you on those points, our youth seem very much alive and have a great heart for serving as well. However to Mike's original post, something we as a church body are doing is not sticking. When they get out on their own, they are not staying in the church. I think the stat was 80-90% (which I wonder if that is U.S. or world stats) are leaving the church. So to my questions, I wonder if when they leave the "youth" arena and then come to the more structured adult arena of the church, if they are having a hard time adjusting to it, because they are use to their own compartment? If they don't feel they fit in, maybe they are leaving? Our youth is used to being able to find what they want within a short time, thanks to the world we live in I.E. Internet, so they are already being programmed with short patience of being satisfied by the world we live in, I just wonder if this is being transferred into the church as well.

Another concern of mine would be, and it ends up being a catch 22, is that the adults in church are leaving it up to the church to do the spiritual teaching to the youth. They drop them off in their area and expect the spiritual lessons to be taught while they go get their's and then they come back together as a family afterwards. The family being taught as a unit, is gone. I equate this to what is going on in our schools in the U.S. as well, the parents drop their kids off at school expecting the teachers to teach them schooling and raise them as well. It seems like we may be mirror imaging what is going on in the school systems, where the system is allowing for no accountability to the adults. On the other hand, it is these same parents who are coming to our churches and most likely won't teach their kids the spiritual lessons they so desperately need so then the youth activities act as the only place they will receive them, hence the catch 22.

I am not for sure either way, but like Mike pointed out, something is not working.

Blessings
Scott

[Ryan Scott]

I agree in great part with what Scott said there. I'm not sure its necessarily the culture, but the failure to recognize that the transition to adulthood isn't complete when they reach high school graduation. Mike knows full well it isn't near complete when they reach college graduation either.

I'm 25 now and I feel like I'm just getting to the point where a lot of the "adult activities" of church might be appealing, assuming they were relevant and functional (which is a stretch in most churches I've experienced; but we're not here to complain).

It seems like most congregations expect their teenagers to think critically and challenge their faith during their teen years, but be comfortable and settled in their faith once they finish high school. I don't see a lot of room in established congregations for challenge and question. I think a church would be much more capable of reaching and keeping these young adults if they were willing to engage in difficult issues and topics more openly.

My experience growing up in the Church was one of being encouraged to fall in line. If I raised a question that was beyond the normal scope of Sunday School or the traditional doctrinal standards of the church, I was told that the subject was decided and given an answer. I wasn't encouraged to search or struggle with issues. People seemed more afraid that I would come to the "wrong" conclusion, than that I might actually get my question answered.

I did go to a Nazarene college that showed me it was ok to explore my doubts and questions, which ultimately has led me to a stronger faith. However, I can't say that the local church, in any place I've lived, has helped in any way in my formation beyond 7th or 8th grade. I am indebted to a good children's program that taught me about the Bible. It just seems like, in most churches, that continues into adulthood, only the words get bigger and the concepts become slightly (slightly) more complex.

The other point I would make, and this sounds awful, but in reality, a majority of people are not going to live their life in a Christ-like way. Just because we have 50 kids in our children's program, doesn't mean we'll still have 50 when they finish high school, even if we do everything perfectly right. Throughout history, far more people have rejected God than accepted God. I say that only because I think we do a disservice when our only aim is to "keep them in the church." Often times this can cater to a commercialization of religion or a consumerism mentality that is totally contrary to the gospel.

I probably typed too much, but this is something I've been struggling with for a while. It is near to my heart.

[Scott Hilton]

Ryan, you brought up some good points and relayed them better than I. Thats what I get for responding to a serious thread to early in the morning. I find this one close to my heart as well, probably because my daughter is about to be 14 in June, so it directly relates to my loved one.

[Ron Davis]

This is a very large topic that I hope continues for some time to come. I'm working on a more complete post but there is one point I want to make from the very beginning. Looking at the success of our current youth groups has nothing to do with the question at hand. Those high school seniors that are involved in the church, leaders of the youth group, and show every sign of spiritual depth are the same ones that are no longer in church at age 25. It does no good to find out from the ones that do stay why they stayed. They are clearly different than those who left.

Is the church doing something wrong. I believe the answer is yes we are. What is the solution? I have no idea. If I did I would probably be writing books about it.

Questions we need to ask:

1. Is separating teens from the adults the right thing to do?
2. If we want to keep them together how far do we go in designing our worship services to match their preferences?
3. How much risk are we willing to take to try experimental methods?
4. How do we measure our success?
5. What should be our top 3 priorities in ministering to teens.

There are more questions that need to be asked but these should be sufficient to continue the discussion.

I should probably also give my qualifications. 20+ years in youth ministry.

[Mike Schutz]

I want to add a different perspective that complements yours. First, the Christianizing of youth is not the responsibility of the church or its leaders. The future faith of our youth lies on the shoulders of parents. The church can serve as a support system, but the onus is the parents.


We were discussing this issue in staff meeting today.

Two "over 40" married females, each with several teens and young adults in their families, said that it is the greatest area of failure in their life. They don't know what they did wrong, but their kids have no interest in the church, even though as children they loved going to church.

Michael, I agree with you that it is the parents' responsibility. Yet there is not a single family in our church with children over the age of 15 that does not have one or more kids who have left the church and the Lord.

Proclaiming the truth that it is the parents' responsibility doesn't help these heartbroken folks. Nor does the statement help the parents of young kids, as I can't offer a family model that has worked.

My kids, age 18 and 16, are serving the Lord, but I certainly do not want to suggest that we are a model of how to do it right. Moreover, it is not us, but our children who have made the right choices thus far.

I believe that it is the responsibility of families and the church to work together to create an environment conducive to making good choices. However, as one parent told me, good parenting and good youth ministry is "a moving target."

[Ron Davis]

I should be the parents responsibility. However, in my youth group there are very few that live with both biological parents. The ones that do you certainly would not call stable families.

That is another question for my list. How do you prepare the parents? Keep in mind that contact with parents is no more than 2 hours per week.

[Dale Cozby]

It isn't the parents responsibility it is the Youth themselves. Philippians 2:12
The sooner a youth takes up his/her cross the better. Many are just carrying the cross thier parents handed them, instead of the one Jesus has called them to bear.

This next one came as an epiphany to me a few years ago.

Everyone tends to look at thier parents as thier role model for life even if we don't like our parents we are most likely to repeat thier mistakes in our life because down inside we look to them for leadership.

Kids who have parents that are non-church attenders have already set an example that is hard for the church to break as these teens age out of youth group and enter early adult life and thier paretns give them bad advice about life. But the fact remains that even those who have parents in church should look to Jesus as the example and not thier parents. Matthew 10:34-36

I have made it a point to share the fact that we are to look to Jesus as our example and not our parents, no matter how good or bad they might think they are. Sure, we all have our parents likeness, but when it comes to faith and character we are to be like Jesus, not mom or dad, step dad, step mom, etc... 1 Corinthians 11:1

Breaking this bad role model syndrome is hard, but if the light ever goes on, they will get it and they can make faith thier own rather than trying to live up to or down to someone else's standard of what faith in God is or is not.

In the last few years we have had more than half of our youth stay in church, somewhere. Most went to college or moved on but it is nice to know they still go to church, when they "report" back to me.
I consider it a success to hear they are going to church and still living thier faith, regardless of them not being in our church anymore.

I consider this a key to the self-freedom to follow Christ for early adults/youth. The key is to teach kids to honor thier parents while still rejecting them as the ultimate role model for thier life.

[Marsha Lynn]

Interesting thread, Mike. As a young adult teacher, I'm watching it happen. I see a couple of factors involved.

1. Whose choice was/is it? Once parents and/or friends and/or the youth pastor are no longer pushing church attendance, will the young person decide for themselves to find a church and commit to attendance? It seems that the answer for many young people is "no". Once the excitement of Caravan or youth parties or extra time with school friends fades away, those who were coming on their own lose interest. Others drift away when they leave home and their parents no longer have the influence they once did. They simply outgrow church. It was part of their childhood, but doesn't fit in with their lives as adults.

That brings us to the next question:

2. Why go to church? There are several possible answers here -- to be with friends, to responsibly keep commitments for service, for somebody else's sake, to encounter God.

Someone has mentioned that it helps to give young people a voice in the church. I agree. Once the old group starts to scatter in the post-high school years and being with friends or pleasing parents is no longer enough reason to come to church, being given responsibility will make a difference for some. Others will come back for the sake of the kids when they have children (and possibly take responsibility for the success of children's programming).

I guess my big question is: Does anyone ever come to church Sunday after Sunday, month after month, year after year, simply to encounter God? If not, why not? Is the prospect of encountering God too uncomfortable? ("Speak to us yourself and we will listen. But do not have God speak to us or we will die" -- Ex 20:19.) Or are people who come looking for a weekly encounter with God disappointed by what they actually experience in the church? Or, as someone else has suggested, are there simply not all that many people who are really interested in spiritual things? Do we need to provide the "hooks" of fellowship and responsibility to make up for what we lack in terms of "living water"?

If we go back to the "God must be God and love must be enough" paradigm offered by Roland and Brad, does it help? Is genuine love toward young people enough to help them through the transition from coming to church to be with friends or to please their parents to coming to church because it's where they find "living water" for their thirsty souls?

I wonder ... if we conducted a NazNet poll and people answered with complete honesty, how many of us who are committed church attenders go to church on any given Sunday primarily for spiritual reasons? I will confess that it wasn't the prospect of a corporate celebration of the resurrection of Jesus Christ that prompted me to take cold medicine this past Sunday, fill my pockets with tissues and cough drops, and head out to church. It was a sense of responsibility. I had taken on too many assignments for the day to be able to stay home. A secondary pull was the prospect of seeing the people I knew would be there. They are my friends.

So to address your question:

What do you think the church can do to be a place of relevance for young adults and older teens who, while spiritually sensitive, seem to show little interest in an intergenerational group of believers who gather together to worship, reach out in love to their community, and choose to "do life" together?

Four factors:

1. Provide fellowship. I don't think the intergenerational part is a barrier as long as our young people know they are loved as individual, valuable members of the body of Christ.

2. Offer opportunities for involvement. Share the responsibility of being the church.

3. Pull them in through their children when the time comes.

4. Make church services a time of true spiritual refreshment.

I think if we could do the numbers 1 and 4 extremely well, the two middle steps would require little attention. I wish I knew how to do #4. I suspect that's at the core of your question, and I don't know the answer.

Marsha

[Marsha Lynn]

Questions we need to ask:

1. Is separating teens from the adults the right thing to do?

Only if you have a very good plan for later integrating the few who will stick around into the congregation as a whole.

2. If we want to keep them together how far do we go in designing our worship services to match their preferences?

The same distance we go in designing our worship services to match the preferences of senior adults, middle adults, children, and die-hard bluegrass fans. Each group is important. Each group needs to make room for all of the others.

My 20-year-old daughter was home from Olivet for the Easter weekend and we went out for lunch on Friday. The restaurant was packed when we got there. I started to claim the only free table while she was distracted by a chance encounter with a friend. However, a septegenarian couple from the Methodist church invited me to join them. I accepted, even though it meant exchanging our mother/daughter lunch for a group affair with "old people" my daughter doesn't know. They are a fun couple, and it left the one open table for somebody else. (I had seen the wife in there earlier in the week and asked about her husband. Her response was that they couldn't afford to both eat lunch every day. He had eaten the day before and that day was her turn. :p )

Later, as we exited, I said, "I hope it was okay to have lunch with those people." Her response was, "Oh, yeah. That was great. That's the kind of people I go to church with!"

With all the broken homes and high mobility in our society, I think our young people hunger for family -- for parent and grandparent and favorite-uncle figures in their lives. Let's not be afraid as a church to offer people to fill those roles for them. Being part of a family means compromise as far as what music is played in the livingroom. Let the young people wander off as a group to the TV room to listen to their loud young people's music now and then, but make sure everyone gathers around the same table for the main meal.

Marsha

[Mike Schutz]

4. Make church services a time of true spiritual refreshment.

I think if we could do the numbers 1 and 4 extremely well, the two middle steps would require little attention. I wish I knew how to do #4. I suspect that's at the core of your question, and I don't know the answer.

Marsha

Marsha, that is the main question, at least for this pastor.

When I go to my dentist there is a large flat screen television, right at eye level. It is placed in the corner, at an angle to the room, just like a fireplace. On the screen, running a continuous loop, is a simulation of a fireplace. It is beautiful, it is very life-like. If you allow yourself, you can even begin to feel a little warmer.
But it is not a real fireplace. And no real heat or warmth is coming from it.

Sometimes, usually when I wake up late on Sunday night or early on Monday morning, I think that this is what the young people are telling us. "There is no real fire here. You people have just convinced yourselves that there is, but it is not real. It is not enough."

I think all of our attempts to change the worship style, or change the music, or "de-church" our vocabulary, or reinstitute smells and bells, and everything else we do, is simply an attempt to get the real fire back.

But then, late on Sunday night or early on Monday morning, I roll over, and if I am really blessed, I am able to fall back to sleep. And come the morning, my to-do list takes over.

And on my to-do list is one item I dread:

* Build a fire

But I don't know how. And I don't know if it is even possible. But I think I am supposed to try.

And for all the young families that are coming to our church and all the babies we are dedicating and baptising, and all the new members, we are still losing our young people.

Sorry if I have been a bit too honest here. But when I say "lost people matter most," the ones that truly break my heart are those who live in our own homes and who sat in our classes and played in our youth groups and knelt at our altars and attended our teen camps and gave their hearts to Jesus (the best they knew how) when they were 7 or 9 or 12.

I wish I could say "It was their choice to stop coming" and leave it at that. But I can't. My heart is breaking.

So I pray.

[Barb Bouldrey]

Some more observations:

Almost all of our seniors go off to college and do not return to Sikeston to find positions. So the spiritually strong teens leave us, never to return and become a part of the young adult leadership we need.

Some of our faithful parents set a bad example for our youth. They give the message that being active in the local church is not a priority and everyone will understand if you are not there all the time, even for the teen activities.

I saw our youth pastors building a barrier between the youth and adults without intending to do so. I saw the "mine" and "yours" division in music. I saw and heard the attitude from some of the teens that they just "could not stand" the hymns and "adult" music. And this attitude came from their youth pastors.

I actually heard, with my own ears, our last youth pastor tell John,"I told told my teens that we are just going to have to teach the adults how to worship."

Now, that really mad me angry. She was putting up a barrier in the minds of our teens. She was teaching them that their contemporary music was "right" and hymns were "wrong." She was teaching them that everyone should stand to their feet and wave their hands around to worship "correctly."

When our teens did a youth service they were always disappointed that the adults did not respond to their music and sing much. I tried to tell her that a brand new song with no music to follow and only chords to hear sing by was very hard to learn the first time. I tried to get her to see that it is easier to learn a song if you can actually hear the tune while learning it.

That youth pastor is no longer here. The teen Sunday School teacher and NYI leaders are doing a good job of involving our teens in the entire church program. John has a blended worship service and uses some of the new choruses blended with the hymns. The guitar may be playing the chords, but the piano plays a melody line so all of us can learn. And we sing the new songs more than once a quarter so they become familiar.

Barb

[Billy Cox]

Many of us have heard statistics that 80% - 90% of teens going through Nazarene youth programs are no longer in the church (with the only mitigating factor being attendance at a Christian institution of higher education).

Where does that statistic come from? What is 'the church'? Is it the same local church? Is it the denomination? Is it Christianity? More importantly, how is this information collected? Do we have a radio transmitter implanted in each high school graduate by which we can determine if they have given up on church altogether?

That's just too many unanswered questions for me to get worked up about it.

That last sentence about Christian institutions of higher education being a mitigating factor makes me think that the stat is cooked up by Christian colleges trying to scare parents into ponying up the extra money for private college tuition.



What do you think the church can do to be a place of relevance for young adults and older teens who, while spiritually sensitive, seem to show little interest in an intergenerational group of believers who gather together to worship, reach out in love to their community, and choose to "do life" together?

This is a good question. I personally believe that many churches are deluded by another questionable statistic - that 80-90% of all Christians were saved before age 18. One application of this dubious statistic is to focus lots of time and money on youth ministry...and then put up the white flag after high school graduation as though the die is already cast.

According to Piaget's developmental theory, the developmental task of early adulthood is to achieve intimacy - i.e. doing life together. If the church is a venue for that, then the young adults will be there.

[Mike Schutz]

Where does that statistic come from? What is 'the church'? Is it the same local church? Is it the denomination? Is it Christianity? More importantly, how is this information collected? Do we have a radio transmitter implanted in each high school graduate by which we can determine if they have given up on church altogether?

That's just too many unanswered questions for me to get worked up about it.

That last sentence about Christian institutions of higher education being a mitigating factor makes me think that the stat is cooked up by Christian colleges trying to scare parents into ponying up the extra money for private college tuition.

The statistic is from General NYI, and I have heard it from there, as well as from a G.S. and from other folks at headquarters.

[Billy Cox]

Sorry if I have been a bit too honest here. But when I say "lost people matter most," the ones that truly break my heart are those who live in our own homes and who sat in our classes and played in our youth groups and knelt at our altars and attended our teen camps and gave their hearts to Jesus (the best they knew how) when they were 7 or 9 or 12.

I wish I could say "It was their choice to stop coming" and leave it at that. But I can't. My heart is breaking.

So I pray.

If they aren't going to our church anymore, where ARE they going?

For what it's worth, people listened to Jesus himself and then decided to do their own thing.

[Mike Schutz]

That's just too many unanswered questions for me to get worked up about it.



I would tend to agree with you, if I didn't see it happening in our local church, didn't hear it from other Nazarene pastors, as well as pastors of other denominations in our local ministerium.

[Billy Cox]

The statistic is from General NYI, and I have heard it from there, as well as from a G.S. and from other folks at headquarters.

Yeah, where do they get the numbers?

Having worked in the Research Center at Nazarene Headquarters, I have a healthy respect for statistics...as well as a keen awareness that they can be interpreted and twisted to mean whatever a speaker needs them to say in order to further their agenda.

[Marsha Lynn]

Marsha, that is the main question, at least for this pastor....

Sorry if I have been a bit too honest here. But when I say "lost people matter most," the ones that truly break my heart are those who live in our own homes and who sat in our classes and played in our youth groups and knelt at our altars and attended our teen camps and gave their hearts to Jesus (the best they knew how) when they were 7 or 9 or 12.

I wish I could say "It was their choice to stop coming" and leave it at that. But I can't. My heart is breaking.

So I pray.

Me too.

I'm hesitant to touch this. As I already said, I don't know the solution and wish I did. I don't design church services, but I do lead a young adult Sunday School class and, thus, am on the front line for young adult retention. And I'm asking the same questions. It wouldn't matter so much if the service was dull and dry if I could make Sunday School irresistably inviting for them.

I attended our district "Team Day" and learned from a creative and dynamic workshop leader that the way to be a successful SS teacher is to be creative and dynamic. The leader didn't explain exactly how a dull and boring person goes about becoming a creative and dynamic SS teacher. I've added "become creative and dynamic" to my to-do list, but I don't think I'm making much progress on it.

I could excuse my church's failure to retain young people by pointing out that the best and brightest of our young people go off to college and never come back. I could point out how many of those well-educated young adults are now involved in (non-Nazarene) churches in other places. But the truth is, there are enough young adults still around here with history in our church that we could be bursting at the seams if only we had something appealing to offer their hungry souls. The stampede to college and beyond of their peers means that we as a church have lost the energy that we had in their age group back in their younger days, but they (and we) are still here now. What do we have to offer them? According to 1 Cor. 1:26-29, the gospel was never primarily designed for the "best and brightest". It's the ones left behind who need our message.

I think a broken heart might be a good place to start. And love. Love for God and love for others. My current approach involves developing relationships with young adults which have absolutely no coersive undertones. I will be their friend even if they never darken the door of my church, or even if they take themselves off my prospect list by committing to another church. I am their friend because I value them as a person, not because they are a target for my soul-winning efforts. I'd love to watch Jesus Christ transform their lives and bring joy into their eyes and turn their focus outward. But I love them as they are.

The cultural conditioning to invite people to church goes deep and it takes an effort to avoid doing so. Inviting people to church is so much easier and seems to have so much more potential for success than investing a minute here and one there in a relationship with them. I can see that what I do in individual relationships isn't nearly enough to make a difference. On the other hand, research may report that 80% of those who don't attend church say they would come if only they were invited, but my own research has shown that approximately 0% of those I invite to church come and those who come on their own don't continue coming even if I persistently invite them back. I can be their friend or not, but either way they're probably not going to join the roll of regular attenders for my SS group.

So here's my strategy.

1. Become a creative and dynamic Sunday School teacher.

2. While waiting to become creative and dynamic, invest small moments in building non-coersive relationships of love with young people from all walks of life.

3. Pray much.

4. Love much.

5. Stay up-to-date with God in order to retain the joy of my own salvation.

Thus far, I don't have too much of numerical value to show for my efforts, but I'm having a lot of fun. I love young adults!

Marsha

[Michael B. Ross]

Mike, you are right. My comments were a reaction to years of parents expecting youth pastors to "save" their children. I now hear parents comment they have sent their children to the church-related university where I teach for the same reason. Sometimes it happens, but not often.

I think your comments are much better than mine. Would the word "partnership" be a good one to describe the relationship between home and church?

We were discussing this issue in staff meeting today.

Two "over 40" married females, each with several teens and young adults in their families, said that it is the greatest area of failure in their life. They don't know what they did wrong, but their kids have no interest in the church, even though as children they loved going to church.

Michael, I agree with you that it is the parents' responsibility. Yet there is not a single family in our church with children over the age of 15 that does not have one or more kids who have left the church and the Lord.

Proclaiming the truth that it is the parents' responsibility doesn't help these heartbroken folks. Nor does the statement help the parents of young kids, as I can't offer a family model that has worked.

My kids, age 18 and 16, are serving the Lord, but I certainly do not want to suggest that we are a model of how to do it right. Moreover, it is not us, but our children who have made the right choices thus far.

I believe that it is the responsibility of families and the church to work together to create an environment conducive to making good choices. However, as one parent told me, good parenting and good youth ministry is "a moving target."

[Ron Davis]

Interesting thread, Mike. As a young adult teacher, I'm watching it happen. I see a couple of factors involved.

1. Whose choice was/is it? Once parents and/or friends and/or the youth pastor are no longer pushing church attendance, will the young person decide for themselves to find a church and commit to attendance? It seems that the answer for many young people is "no". Once the excitement of Caravan or youth parties or extra time with school friends fades away, those who were coming on their own lose interest. Others drift away when they leave home and their parents no longer have the influence they once did. They simply outgrow church. It was part of their childhood, but doesn't fit in with their lives as adults.

Perhaps the youth program is better at connecting people than the adult program. Therefore as teens enter early adulthood they depart the church when they are no longer being connected with others in a meaningful manner.

That brings us to the next question:

2. Why go to church? Marsha

I don't think we do very well answering this question for the teens. Responsibility is insufficient for them. Even encountering God doesn't work very well because to them an encounter with God should be just as readily available outside the church.

It seems that perhaps one problem we have is we communicate to them that all our efforts and resources are focused on getting people to attend our Sunday morning worship services. All other programs have the ultimate intent of directing people to attend worship services at our church. This doesn't make sense to them.

[Ryan Scott]

I think the worship "style" debate is being discussed from the wrong paradigm. In my experience, people of my age (and now younger, as I am increasingly becoming the old man) value authenticity over anything else. It's not necessarily the hymns that they don't like (I happen to love hymns and their message, far more than that of any modern song), it's the perceived lack of authenticity in our services. So many time I go to a service that seems like a social club, with announcements and interruptions throughout. It doesn't seem like there is an atmosphere of worship.

My wife and I have been running a Saturday Evening service at our church for about eight months. We try to create an atmosphere of reverence and presence. There lights are off; we use candles and the natural sunlight coming in. There's no sound system, just a guitar, piano and voices amplified. The only media is the words to the songs on a screen at the front. Many of the songs are old hymns. We try to incorporate many of the traditions of the church at various times. We've used incense and candle-lighting and prayers of Christians from Augustine to Wesley.

The idea was to create a place where people can physically sense the authenticity of the faith. This (worship) is something that's been done for two thousand years (and more!).

It is, in essence, really old fashioned church. I was surprised this last week with a response from a friend of mine. He did not grow up in the Church, but came to faith after college and our traditional Sunday morning service is all he has ever known of worship. He came in and walked around the sanctuary in silence and then came back out as if to leave. I asked where he was going. He said, "it feels like church in there. I'm going to finish my soda and take off my hat. It doesn't feel right to have them in there." It was the same sanctuary on Sunday morning and in fact we sang three of the same songs we would sing the next day.

I've gotten more than a few comments like that during our run with this service and it has amazed me, mostly because we didn't really plan it that way. People attending were recognizing the presence of God.

I think a lot of congregations have to look at what their services project in terms of atmosphere. We don't need to force joy into people by plastering a smile on our faces and singing overly happy songs and pretending that everything is great all the time. Joy comes from God, even in the times of sorrow.

The disconnect is that while there is a whole generation of people who worship by putting a happy face on an unhappy life (and with this comes a monumental statement of faith that can't be denied), there is a new generation of people who long to bring the problems of the world to God in worship. Their joy comes in embracing the pain of life and the God who can help us through the pain.

There is place for both of these in our corporate worship and place for both to have an informative voice for the other, but I haven't seen too many places that do it effectively. You generally see one or the other and both are missing out.

[Ron Davis]

Four factors:

1. Provide fellowship. I don't think the intergenerational part is a barrier as long as our young people know they are loved as individual, valuable members of the body of Christ.

2. Offer opportunities for involvement. Share the responsibility of being the church.

3. Pull them in through their children when the time comes.

4. Make church services a time of true spiritual refreshment.

I think if we could do the numbers 1 and 4 extremely well, the two middle steps would require little attention. I wish I knew how to do #4. I suspect that's at the core of your question, and I don't know the answer.

Marsha

"Provide fellowship" is on the right track but pretty general. How and what does this look like?

"Opportunities for involvement" must be meaningful. Token responsibilities won't help.

"Make church services a time of true spiritual refreshment." is something that is difficult to do when that is defined by style more than anything else. If style is really that critical then we must be willing to live with the decisions we make. I would love to hear some ideas on how to be the church and making "style" irrelevant.

[Mike Schutz]

I think the worship "style" debate is being discussed from the wrong paradigm. In my experience, people of my age (and now younger, as I am increasingly becoming the old man) value authenticity over anything else. It's not necessarily the hymns that they don't like (I happen to love hymns and their message, far more than that of any modern song), it's the perceived lack of authenticity in our services. So many time I go to a service that seems like a social club, with announcements and interruptions throughout. It doesn't seem like there is an atmosphere of worship.

My wife and I have been running a Saturday Evening service at our church for about eight months. We try to create an atmosphere of reverence and presence. There lights are off; we use candles and the natural sunlight coming in. There's no sound system, just a guitar, piano and voices amplified. The only media is the words to the songs on a screen at the front. Many of the songs are old hymns. We try to incorporate many of the traditions of the church at various times. We've used incense and candle-lighting and prayers of Christians from Augustine to Wesley.

The idea was to create a place where people can physically sense the authenticity of the faith. This (worship) is something that's been done for two thousand years (and more!).

It is, in essence, really old fashioned church. I was surprised this last week with a response from a friend of mine. He did not grow up in the Church, but came to faith after college and our traditional Sunday morning service is all he has ever known of worship. He came in and walked around the sanctuary in silence and then came back out as if to leave. I asked where he was going. He said, "it feels like church in there. I'm going to finish my soda and take off my hat. It doesn't feel right to have them in there." It was the same sanctuary on Sunday morning and in fact we sang three of the same songs we would sing the next day.

I've gotten more than a few comments like that during our run with this service and it has amazed me, mostly because we didn't really plan it that way. People attending were recognizing the presence of God.

I think a lot of congregations have to look at what their services project in terms of atmosphere. We don't need to force joy into people by plastering a smile on our faces and singing overly happy songs and pretending that everything is great all the time. Joy comes from God, even in the times of sorrow.

The disconnect is that while there is a whole generation of people who worship by putting a happy face on an unhappy life (and with this comes a monumental statement of faith that can't be denied), there is a new generation of people who long to bring the problems of the world to God in worship. Their joy comes in embracing the pain of life and the God who can help us through the pain.

There is place for both of these in our corporate worship and place for both to have an informative voice for the other, but I haven't seen too many places that do it effectively. You generally see one or the other and both are missing out.

Thanks for this. It is really helpful and good stuff. I need to think about it some more and then come back to it.

Grace and peace,
Mike

[Ryan Scott]

I don't think it's the answer everywhere or anywhere, but I know the authenticity we stumbled upon resonated with people. Not just young people, but people who've felt disaffected with "church." I don't want to say its a "God without the church" thing, but it's more of a remembering that worship is not the Church. A lot of congregations today try to crime all of their duties as the body of Christ into an hour or two on Sunday and it just doesn't work.

I don't think what we've done would work in a "regular" context, but it is certainly something that will inform my thinking as I venture into the professional clergy realm.

[Marsha Lynn]

Where does that statistic come from? What is 'the church'? Is it the same local church? Is it the denomination? Is it Christianity? More importantly, how is this information collected? Do we have a radio transmitter implanted in each high school graduate by which we can determine if they have given up on church altogether?

That's just too many unanswered questions for me to get worked up about it.

That last sentence about Christian institutions of higher education being a mitigating factor makes me think that the stat is cooked up by Christian colleges trying to scare parents into ponying up the extra money for private college tuition.

Those are valid questions. I think the way I've seen it presented is that the young people in the statistics are no longer involved in any church.

I decided to do my own research using the very limited sample of one local representation of the Church of the Nazarene in an economically-depressed area. For this study, we will define "young" as currently less than 30 (less than 19 in the 1995-96 winter quarter)

In the 1995-96 winter quarter:

50 adults and 44 young people attended Sunday School at least one time for a total of 94 attenders.

In the 2006-07 winter quarter:

40 adults and 30 young people attended Sunday School at least one time for a total of 70 attenders.

Of the adults: 25 were the same. That means half of the adults quit coming -- 9 died; 2 now attend worship services only; 3 moved; 6 stomped away, etc. However, 15 new adults started coming -- some moved in, some stomped away from other churches, at least four were lost SS kids from days gone by who came back as over-30 adults; two of those brought spouses.

Of the young people: 8 are the same - 3 young adults and 5 teens; 36 have quit coming -- 15 moved (most to college) and at least 10 of those are now involved in other churches; 16 or so are still around as far as I know but probably not involved in any church; 1 is married and part of her husband's church; I've lost track of a few.

So ... of the 44 young people who attended 11 years ago, 3 have been retained as adults in the same church and 11 are active in other churches. Five who were young children are now in the teen group.

19 out of 44 is a lot better than the 10-20% retention of the statistics, but it still leaves 25 young people adrift, most of them right outside our doors.

Marsha

[Barb Bouldrey]

Something we need to take into account is that most teenagers who graduated from high school and go off to college OR get jobs and get their own apartments go through "Freshman Freedom." Once they are on their own and their own boss they just seem to enjoy exerting their new authority by choosing NOT to go to church just to show that they do not HAVE to go any more.

Anyone who ever lived in a freshman dorm remembers how few actually went to church that year and enjoyed sleeping in just because they could.

It is so easy to stay up all night Saturday night playing Rook and then sleep until time to go to Sunday dinner. LOL

Did I just give myself away? HA! I just tattled on JOHN!!! And he and his pals were all preacher boys.

I learned several years ago that Olivet College Church switched Sunday School from 9:45 a.m. to 6 p.m. And their S.S. attendence doubled. Smart move.

Barb

[Marsha Lynn]

Thank you for this, Ryan. I'm interested in how it could be applied to a Sunday School setting where many of the problems are the same for touching the lives of young people but pure worship is not the prime directive. Perhaps, the main overlap is authenticity? What is the appropriate atmosphere for a 21st-century young adult Sunday School class? (Yes, we've tried calling it Adult Bible Fellowship, but if it's on Sunday morning at 9:30, we all know that it's Sunday School, no matter what's written on the book.)

I think the worship "style" debate is being discussed from the wrong paradigm. In my experience, people of my age (and now younger, as I am increasingly becoming the old man) value authenticity over anything else. It's not necessarily the hymns that they don't like (I happen to love hymns and their message, far more than that of any modern song), it's the perceived lack of authenticity in our services. So many time I go to a service that seems like a social club, with announcements and interruptions throughout. It doesn't seem like there is an atmosphere of worship.

My wife and I have been running a Saturday Evening service at our church for about eight months. We try to create an atmosphere of reverence and presence. There lights are off; we use candles and the natural sunlight coming in. There's no sound system, just a guitar, piano and voices amplified. The only media is the words to the songs on a screen at the front. Many of the songs are old hymns. We try to incorporate many of the traditions of the church at various times. We've used incense and candle-lighting and prayers of Christians from Augustine to Wesley.

The idea was to create a place where people can physically sense the authenticity of the faith. This (worship) is something that's been done for two thousand years (and more!).

It is, in essence, really old fashioned church. I was surprised this last week with a response from a friend of mine. He did not grow up in the Church, but came to faith after college and our traditional Sunday morning service is all he has ever known of worship. He came in and walked around the sanctuary in silence and then came back out as if to leave. I asked where he was going. He said, "it feels like church in there. I'm going to finish my soda and take off my hat. It doesn't feel right to have them in there." It was the same sanctuary on Sunday morning and in fact we sang three of the same songs we would sing the next day.

I've gotten more than a few comments like that during our run with this service and it has amazed me, mostly because we didn't really plan it that way. People attending were recognizing the presence of God.

I think a lot of congregations have to look at what their services project in terms of atmosphere. We don't need to force joy into people by plastering a smile on our faces and singing overly happy songs and pretending that everything is great all the time. Joy comes from God, even in the times of sorrow.

The disconnect is that while there is a whole generation of people who worship by putting a happy face on an unhappy life (and with this comes a monumental statement of faith that can't be denied), there is a new generation of people who long to bring the problems of the world to God in worship. Their joy comes in embracing the pain of life and the God who can help us through the pain.

There is place for both of these in our corporate worship and place for both to have an informative voice for the other, but I haven't seen too many places that do it effectively. You generally see one or the other and both are missing out.

[Ryan Scott]

I think Sunday School as it's traditionally been done is over in terms of people my age. First of all I'm not sure the mix of education/discussion goes all that well before worship. Maybe afterwards, especially if the class topic is the same as the sermon??

I've found a real valuable experience in a small group of people near my age. We've really invest in each other and been open and honest. We began by studying 1 Corinthians and just exploring together what true Christian community was supposed to look like and now we've kind of branched out into other things. It took a remarkably long time to build the trust and community necessary to truly be open and honest about the things we're studying and discussing.

Ideally, a "monitored" discussion of the sermon at some point after the worship service seems like the most valuable "Sunday School" experience to me. This isn't necessarily true for me, but I've heard over and over again from young adults that they long for a time to intellectually respond to the sermon and to discuss implications, etc.

Regardless of what you do, I think its essential to tie any lesson into the theme of the Sunday service. It seems more appealing to cover one topic/passage/lesson in depth each week than to gloss over two or three.

[Barb Bouldrey]

I have to add something else to balance the picture.

It is easy to ask, "How did the church fail this age group?" It is not easy to answer that, always.

We discuss all the things we have tried to do differently and some of the things we could still do differently.

BUT...we have to accept the fact that SOME people who leave the church after high school or college have FAILED to make a strong commitment to God and Christ...a commitment that lasts. It is their own failure, their own stubborness, their own resistance no matter what the church does.

Some people, even in their 80's sit in the church pew or around a Sunday School table all their lives and resist the call of the Holy Spirit. They never really experience the Joy of the Lord for themselves. Christ does not become a personal Friend.

And since the center of sin is SELF, it is normal for young adults to live for themselves once they get out on their own. Even if they know they should go to church, their desires for self and pleasing self are stronger.

I do not think the answer is new programs. I think the answer is reaching out in friendship and drawing them back with love. That takes activity outside of the church building.

And, I think it starts with praying for them that the Holy Spirit will give them the DESIRE to come back to church...and come back to God.

Barb

[Mike Schutz]

I think Sunday School as it's traditionally been done is over in terms of people my age. First of all I'm not sure the mix of education/discussion goes all that well before worship. Maybe afterwards, especially if the class topic is the same as the sermon??

Ideally, a "monitored" discussion of the sermon at some point after the worship service seems like the most valuable "Sunday School" experience to me. This isn't necessarily true for me, but I've heard over and over again from young adults that they long for a time to intellectually respond to the sermon and to discuss implications, etc.

Regardless of what you do, I think its essential to tie any lesson into the theme of the Sunday service. It seems more appealing to cover one topic/passage/lesson in depth each week than to gloss over two or three.

This is what we have done with our Sunday school program, for adults and for teens. They all meet following the worship service, and discussion begins with the scripture passage from the sermon. Sometimes it never gets even to that, as during the coffee time folks start talking about the message, and then it continues into the class.

Our teachers are learning to not be so concerned with being the "presenter/expert" as being the facilitator. "What's your personal response to what Mike said this morning?" has become the teacher's introduction. One teacher said that it has "given permission to respond to the message - some folks were taught that you shouldn't talk about the sermon, for fear of being a critic. Now we are encouraging it."

Several of our adult classes have really blossomed with this approach - and Sunday school attendance has doubled in less than a year.

Back to the thread - Our Sunday morning teen group attendance has also doubled, both with this approach and with meeting after worship rather than before.

[Martijn van Beveren]

In recent discussions here and various other places, we have discussed Reggie MacNeal comments concerning the failures of the institutional church.

What do you think the church can do to be a place of relevance for young adults and older teens who, while spiritually sensitive, seem to show little interest in an intergenerational group of believers who gather together to worship, reach out in love to their community, and choose to "do life" together?

Well, I've been reading along for a while now, and I wonder if we should look at what church is...
I mean, we have been going to "church" since 3-400 AD. Before that time there was no institutional church. There were a lot of groups gathering in homes and so but nothing as the official catholic church in the middle ages.

This brings me to another direction in how we look at the church. being a church can go beyond the walls we've put up. I sometimes get the feeling that this proces of going to church gives people the idea that it only can happen between those walls. It can create an atmosphere of "insincerity". Not intentional but inentional.
Is it that people need to come to church or does the church need to go to the people?
Should youth be kept between safe walls?
I think that the emphasis should be on the loving connection among believers and non-believers.

Marty

[Ryan Scott]

That's great to hear, Mike. I'm glad this idea actually works!!

[Ron Davis]

Well, I've been reading along for a while now, and I wonder if we should look at what church is...
I mean, we have been going to "church" since 3-400 AD. Before that time there was no institutional church. There were a lot of groups gathering in homes and so but nothing as the official catholic church in the middle ages.

This brings me to another direction in how we look at the church. being a church can go beyond the walls we've put up. I sometimes get the feeling that this proces of going to church gives people the idea that it only can happen between those walls. It can create an atmosphere of "insincerity". Not intentional but inentional.
Is it that people need to come to church or does the church need to go to the people?
Should youth be kept between safe walls?
I think that the emphasis should be on the loving connection among believers and non-believers.

Marty

I think you are on the right track here. When Jesus said "upon this rock I will build my church" , I don't think he had in mind a weekly worship gathering. To teenagers church attendance is just one of many events they attend and one they perceive to be less meaningful than their other options.

As long as morning worship attendance is our measure of success I don't think we will change that perception.

[Martijn van Beveren]

I think you are on the right track here. When Jesus said "upon this rock I will build my church" , I don't think he had in mind a weekly worship gathering. To teenagers church attendance is just one of many events they attend and one they perceive to be less meaningful than their other options.

As long as morning worship attendance is our measure of success I don't think we will change that perception.

Yes, so we have to open up and see more possibilities on how to be "church".
One method I like is the way Mike told about the Sundayschool after the service. A sermon always raises some other questions which for most of the time will stay unanswered. So This method is a great way to challenge people to focus on what's being said and afterwards openly discuss it. We become participants instead of consumers. And that's what the world already has to offer, a lot of other consuming.
In this participation we create leadership and other fruitful evolvements. It will help the lay person to engage and grow. Also trying to find an answer to some BIG questions will create more deepening and understanding. Handling the questions of the world today and putting them in a Christian perspective will get people to think about nowadays living the life.

To get to the broader term of being church...
I still have some memories of family vacations in the south of France, where on Sunday we would go into nature with drinks and food and do a small worship service on a open spot. Sing some songs, read the bible, and even break the bread and so. We would also discuss some things we've read. How simple do you want it... I would define this as a church.

So this could also take place at a BBQ, parking lot, park, picknick, hiphop/rock/.... events, sports event, summer vacation, _____ , just fill in the blank. It's not about a showy act or something, but being connected with people, in other words, fellowship. God's presence is not defined by the walls we make, nor time, nor the style we worship. It's about essentials of The Message and living it in the community.
I think we need to get really creative how to get "church" involved into the community where we live.
We should not be fearful of what happens when things go beyond our church walls, if He is with us...:fav18

So, now how does this involve youth? The way we are involved into this fellowship shows us who we truly are. The laughter, fun, devotion, discussion and honest care and friendship will set an example for our teens, get them involved into the action and make them feel that they belong.:fav04

In His grace and mercy,
Marty:rolleyes:

[Charles W Christian]

Yes, so we have to open up and see more possibilities on how to be "church".
One method I like is the way Mike told about the Sundayschool after the service. A sermon always raises some other questions which for most of the time will stay unanswered. So This method is a great way to challenge people to focus on what's being said and afterwards openly discuss it. We become participants instead of consumers. And that's what the world already has to offer, a lot of other consuming.
In this participation we create leadership and other fruitful evolvements. It will help the lay person to engage and grow. Also trying to find an answer to some BIG questions will create more deepening and understanding. Handling the questions of the world today and putting them in a Christian perspective will get people to think about nowadays living the life.

To get to the broader term of being church...
I still have some memories of family vacations in the south of France, where on Sunday we would go into nature with drinks and food and do a small worship service on a open spot. Sing some songs, read the bible, and even break the bread and so. We would also discuss some things we've read. How simple do you want it... I would define this as a church.

So this could also take place at a BBQ, parking lot, park, picknick, hiphop/rock/.... events, sports event, summer vacation, _____ , just fill in the blank. It's not about a showy act or something, but being connected with people, in other words, fellowship. God's presence is not defined by the walls we make, nor time, nor the style we worship. It's about essentials of The Message and living it in the community.
I think we need to get really creative how to get "church" involved into the community where we live.
We should not be fearful of what happens when things go beyond our church walls, if He is with us...:fav18

So, now how does this involve youth? The way we are involved into this fellowship shows us who we truly are. The laughter, fun, devotion, discussion and honest care and friendship will set an example for our teens, get them involved into the action and make them feel that they belong.:fav04

In His grace and mercy,
Marty:rolleyes:

Marty -
I'm only going to partly agree with your statements, but I like some of your ideas.

I don't think we can simply say (as your earlier thread implied) that since 300 AD or so the church has been doing it all wrong. The early church built buildings in which to gather when they could (it was illegal to before then), so I don't think the house church model has to be deemed the "authentic" scriptural way to worship. Having said that, we do tend to "in gather" a little too much as the Church, especially in the U.S./North America.

It seems that teens and young adults want authenticity in worship. It's not about music style, since I've seen teens who want to leave non-denominational settings and join Eastern Orthodoxy! Now EO is pretty traditional to say the least, and they tend to meet week in gigantic (beautiful) buildings, too.

The gathering place can be a useful teaching tool for all age groups.

The gathering place and time should be preparation for ministry outside the walls, as well as a time of refreshing for those who are inside the walls. This is the balance, and in given this, I think what you are implying about balance between the two is right on.

Thanks,
Charles

[Charles W Christian]

I think you are on the right track here. When Jesus said "upon this rock I will build my church" , I don't think he had in mind a weekly worship gathering. To teenagers church attendance is just one of many events they attend and one they perceive to be less meaningful than their other options.

As long as morning worship attendance is our measure of success I don't think we will change that perception.

Again, I can only partially agree with this.

I think your last sentence is right on :fav18 . Getting "butts in the seats" should not be our primary motivation or measure of success (pardon my bluntness). If God chooses to bless us in this way, then it would be more of a by-product than an ultimate goal, in my view.

However, I DO think that part of the "package" that Jesus had in mind when He spoke the words in Matt. 16 had to do with consistently (weekly or more) gatherings together of local groups of believers who represented and acted in accord with the other local bodies that gather throughout the world that comprise the whole Body of Christ. I think to say otherwise is to fall for a common Evangelical (including Nazarene) mistake of somehow trying to make the Church (universal church) and the church (local church) entities that run on parallel tracks, instead of the more biblical norm of describing the Universal Church has made up of local churches. Take a look at the NT letters and the Gospels, for example. Their primary concern was to speak to local gatherings of believers, and then by extension, the Church universal.

Thanks,
Charles
:fav05 :fav05

[Ryan Scott]

Marty -
I'm only going to partly agree with your statements, but I like some of your ideas.

I don't think we can simply say (as your earlier thread implied) that since 300 AD or so the church has been doing it all wrong. The early church built buildings in which to gather when they could (it was illegal to before then), so I don't think the house church model has to be deemed the "authentic" scriptural way to worship. Having said that, we do tend to "in gather" a little too much as the Church, especially in the U.S./North America.

It seems that teens and young adults want authenticity in worship. It's not about music style, since I've seen teens who want to leave non-denominational settings and join Eastern Orthodoxy! Now EO is pretty traditional to say the least, and they tend to meet week in gigantic (beautiful) buildings, too.

The gathering place can be a useful teaching tool for all age groups.

The gathering place and time should be preparation for ministry outside the walls, as well as a time of refreshing for those who are inside the walls. This is the balance, and in given this, I think what you are implying about balance between the two is right on.

Thanks,
Charles



I would agree with you whole-heartedly there. It's not the gathering that has become outdated, but "our" perception of it. I like to say that the Sunday service is the "least important" thing the Church does. That's not to say it's unimportant, but it should not be the focus of the Church. I think this is what I hear Martin saying too. If the service became preparation of the body for ministry in the world, I think it would be much more effective, especially among younger members.

[Martijn van Beveren]

Marty -
I'm only going to partly agree with your statements, but I like some of your ideas.

I don't think we can simply say (as your earlier thread implied) that since 300 AD or so the church has been doing it all wrong. The early church built buildings in which to gather when they could (it was illegal to before then), so I don't think the house church model has to be deemed the "authentic" scriptural way to worship.


You're right it isn't the "authentic" scriptural way that really matters, but I do think that even the official (early Catholic) church was wrong when it came down to raw power. They sided with politics, and that's where it went wrong, the church was given high authority. I do not think that they were aware of the consequences, but the results were devastating. Crusades, fear, abuse, prostitution, persecution, torture, stake burning, war, and so on. They abused their power. This is the history of the church in the early decades.
With this in account also came tradition. We should keep it the way it is and everybody who has something against it has a problem. It works this way let's not change it, and so freedom of speech and theology went out the door.
Maybe I haven't got it all right, but this is what I see in history, this is what I read. It makes me sad to see so much injustice by "the church" or famous "church"people.
Why this part? Well, this reminds me of how blinded we can be looking at our way of being church. That's why I do my best not to be only in the church but more so to be outside the church(building).
So to conclude this:
It's important to come together and worship, pray and go for the same goal.
It's what Jesus showed me, live the life, go His way, love my neighbor. This is why I urge everyone to stop bellybutton staring inside the church and start sharing life and tell people that God is God and that He loves us. Not that we should abandon church or give it up, but we should make room for our neighbor. Something a lot of churches don't do.


Having said that, we do tend to "in gather" a little too much as the Church, especially in the U.S./North America.

It seems that teens and young adults want authenticity in worship. It's not about music style, since I've seen teens who want to leave non-denominational settings and join Eastern Orthodoxy! Now EO is pretty traditional to say the least, and they tend to meet week in gigantic (beautiful) buildings, too.

The gathering place can be a useful teaching tool for all age groups.

The gathering place and time should be preparation for ministry outside the walls, as well as a time of refreshing for those who are inside the walls. This is the balance, and in given this, I think what you are implying about balance between the two is right on.

Thanks,
Charles

Yup, you're right ;)
When it comes to authenticity in worship, I think that we should be really questioning why we do what we do? Also, how did it come this way? And what is it that we are supposed to be doing? Also trying to answer some things that are BIG questions (for teens) and being able to stay true. And even if we just don't know the answer, just admit it. At least I would. I come across a lot of people in the NL that were young attenders and at an older age have fallen from their faith because the church didn't give them answers. Or came up with some rule not to ask those questions just because.
If children and teens have questions I want to give them an answer because I value their search for a true, honest and deeper relationship with God.
So, 1. the showing of a Christ filled life in and outside the church and 2. the questions and answers handled with care and valued.

and now I end here else I start writing in circles LOL :P

Thx,
Marty

[Charles W Christian]

You're right it isn't the "authentic" scriptural way that really matters, but I do think that even the official (early Catholic) church was wrong when it came down to raw power. They sided with politics, and that's where it went wrong, the church was given high authority. I do not think that they were aware of the consequences, but the results were devastating. Crusades, fear, abuse, prostitution, persecution, torture, stake burning, war, and so on. They abused their power. This is the history of the church in the early decades.
With this in account also came tradition. We should keep it the way it is and everybody who has something against it has a problem. It works this way let's not change it, and so freedom of speech and theology went out the door.
Maybe I haven't got it all right, but this is what I see in history, this is what I read. It makes me sad to see so much injustice by "the church" or famous "church"people.
Why this part? Well, this reminds me of how blinded we can be looking at our way of being church. That's why I do my best not to be only in the church but more so to be outside the church(building).
So to conclude this:
It's important to come together and worship, pray and go for the same goal.
It's what Jesus showed me, live the life, go His way, love my neighbor. This is why I urge everyone to stop bellybutton staring inside the church and start sharing life and tell people that God is God and that He loves us. Not that we should abandon church or give it up, but we should make room for our neighbor. Something a lot of churches don't do.



Yup, you're right ;)
When it comes to authenticity in worship, I think that we should be really questioning why we do what we do? Also, how did it come this way? And what is it that we are supposed to be doing? Also trying to answer some things that are BIG questions (for teens) and being able to stay true. And even if we just don't know the answer, just admit it. At least I would. I come across a lot of people in the NL that were young attenders and at an older age have fallen from their faith because the church didn't give them answers. Or came up with some rule not to ask those questions just because.
If children and teens have questions I want to give them an answer because I value their search for a true, honest and deeper relationship with God.
So, 1. the showing of a Christ filled life in and outside the church and 2. the questions and answers handled with care and valued.

and now I end here else I start writing in circles LOL :P

Thx,
Marty

=======
I think you misquoted me or misunderstood me above when you said that I was saying that it isn't the "authentic scriptural way that really matters." That was not the main point of what I said. The way things happened in regard to worship in the first few decades of the Church had as much to do with the necessities of the day (i.e., it was ILLEGAL) than it had to do with trying to say, "This is how everyone for all time should gather together for worship." Just to be clear, that was my point.

I would say, too, that all traditions are not bad, even according to Jesus. Some traditions teach us that "this REALLY is the way things are, and who are we to change it?" This is called submission to proper authority, and it should be the hallmark of all Christians, especially Christian leaders (see Phil. 2). Just because we think we have a "better idea" does not mean we have the right to try to make this into doctrine. Satan tried that and look where it got him (and us!).

Of course, I think you're probably speaking more about traditions that are manipulative and that abuse power by placing control in the hands of the "few" (like the Pharisees, etc.). We see that Jesus did not like this kind of tradition.

Thanks,
Charles

[Kim Hersey]

What do you think the church can do to be a place of relevance for young adults and older teens who, while spiritually sensitive, seem to show little interest in an intergenerational group of believers who gather together to worship, reach out in love to their community, and choose to "do life" together?

Forgive me, for two things... first, for jumping in so late. Second, for only addressing the end of the post. Mike, you've got great thoughts and the whole thing deserves more than I can give it...

But for now, I wonder if we (as the church, local or denominationally) are really the group that you described in the question? I think we are "intergenerational" and I think we "gather together to worship". But I'm not sure, sadly, that we reach out in love to our communities--at least not *together, intergenerationally*-- or that we really choose to "do life" together.

If we did, and did those things well, I think those spiritually sensitive teens/young adults might just respond to the authenticity or our lives iwth authenticity of their own... and WOW.

But, I think we often limit teens to "entry level" jobs in the church, and we don't really reach out in love to our communities--or we do so when teens are in school, or we do so with teens but adults aren't willing to give their time and join in--, and we "protect our kids" from all the harsh realities of "adult life", and then we wonder why they don't want to be part of the charade we're playing.

Ok, off my soapbox.
grace, and peace,
Kim

[Martijn van Beveren]

=======
I think you misquoted me or misunderstood me above when you said that I was saying that it isn't the "authentic scriptural way that really matters." That was not the main point of what I said.

Well, I guess you're right. It seems to me that I read it differently than you were explaining... A message falls short on some occassions or is read in a different way. Sorry for the misinterpretation.:gen07

Marty