The God of the Moments

[Roland Hearn]

I have a four week break from my studies. During this time I was hoping to work 50 hours a week driving buses. I need the money. My first day back I coughed while leaning over and had felt a sharp stabbing pain at the base of my back. It actually really hurt and when I adjusted my seat for the day the pain was quite intense. After each run was finished I rose gingerly from the driver’s seat, stepped off the bus and walked around. At least that was what I tried to do, it was more like dragged myself out of the seat, fell out of the bus and shuffled around. I was in so much pain at one point I was worried I might not have the strength to apply the break. When it came time for my meal break I limped into the lunch room and someone asked me if I had hurt my leg - due to my shuffling. The other drivers insisted I pull out of my second half. I had to go and see the Work Place Health and Safety Officer and he insisted I go to the doctor. I rode my Suzuki 1200 the three or four miles to a clinic I knew did work related injuries. Along the way I found myself fearing every moment that I had to stop and put my foot on the ground and even more so when I had to lift it again when taking off. I finally got to the doctor’s office and by that stage could not manage anything beyond a shuffle. With medication in hand I then rode the two or three miles home. I found myself screaming out in agony at each stop. I got home and had to ask my son for help to get up the stairs. The upshot of that was I could not work for over a week and the depot is erring on the caution side about giving me more shifts. Did I mention I need the money? I was standing in front of the mirror the other day, my back now all but perfectly fine, wondering why God let this happen, He knows my needs. I then started to wonder if God knew I needed a break more, or if He wanted to teach another lesson on His power to provide.

At that point I stopped myself. You see I have come to a point in my life where I try very hard not to think of God that way. Old habits die hard. The truth is I do not believe you can effectively maintain a position of free will if we see God constantly manipulating circumstances for some grander scheme. I do believe God acts in the moments to impact physical circumstances. I just believe, however, that it is a lot, lot less frequent then we tend to think. I think in life good things and bad things happen. God’s work in the moments is about what He does in me not what He does in my circumstances. When someone sees something good in their life and they see God “doing it”, I shudder a little. When they see something bad happen and they see God “allowing it” for some grander scheme I shudder even more. It is not possible to have that perspective on the moments and not arrive at the place where we see God manipulating our whole lives, it just isn’t. We may need to think it through to see that but that is the case. I affirm a God that acts in the moments but most of that activity is in the individual not the circumstances. A God of love reveals Himself as transformational to the person, not the circumstance. And yet sometimes He does the physically wondrous in our moments too.

However I have questions about my view point. Is there a danger of stepping into a view point that does not allow for providence? Is it possible that I become ego centric seeing myself as the only factor that is important? I am the one that acts in my moments, God acts in me therefore I have no need to thank Him when life is good, additionally I have no need to blame Him or look to Him for answers when life is bad. Does God even consider my circumstances? Does He care about the pain I am in? I think the way I see things is truer to my broader theological perspective but I haven’t solved all the problems yet.

[Susan Unger]

I then started to wonder if God knew I needed a break more, or if He wanted to teach another lesson on His power to provide. At that point I stopped myself. You see I have come to a point in my life where I try very hard not to think of God that way. Old habits die hard. The truth is I do not believe you can effectively maintain a position of free will if we see God constantly manipulating circumstances for some grander scheme. I do believe God acts in the moments to impact physical circumstances. I just believe, however, that it is a lot, lot less frequent then we tend to think.

Where I used to live, I was severely influenced by calvinist friends who believed this way. So, when bad things occured in the 1990s, it made me believe that God was out to get me. Freedom came when I stopped believing like them and instead as you that "you can[n't] effectively maintain a position of free will if we see God constantly manipulating circumstances for some grander scheme." God is still involved in my and everyone's lives, just not such a micromanager.

[Hans Deventer]

However I have questions about my view point. Is there a danger of stepping into a view point that does not allow for providence? Is it possible that I become ego centric seeing myself as the only factor that is important? I am the one that acts in my moments, God acts in me therefore I have no need to thank Him when life is good, additionally I have no need to blame Him or look to Him for answers when life is bad. Does God even consider my circumstances? Does He care about the pain I am in? I think the way I see things is truer to my broader theological perspective but I haven’t solved all the problems yet.

Roland, first of all, I'm truly sorry you are in this situation of pain and trouble.

I think the deal is to stop try creating a closed system. I will always thank God for the good things that happen. I don't care whether He pulled out a trick just for me, or not. In either case, anything good reflects the good creation He made so I thank Him.

As to the bad things, I don't believe He is to blame other than that He created a world in which there is freedom. I presume He considered that to be a risk worth taking, even to the point of dying on the cross in order to fix things. If He was willing to pay that price, I don't think I should be the one to blame Him.

My personal theory is that all of life is meant to learn to trust Him. We see "through a glass darkly" and it is exactly in that situation that learning to trust makes sense. I think is something we can only learn in this situation.

So yes, His main concern is in teaching us to trust, even to the point of learning to deal with a "Eli, Eli, lama sabachtani". The goal is not to learn to understand. But it might be very useful if we understand that :smilies0041:

[Glenda Harvey]

I was with a friend today who at age 45 was lamenting her single status and the probability of never having children. She began talking about how she always believed in God's perfect will but was beginning to question how this could be God's perfect will for her.

I believe that God does have a perfect will for us and that he works in us and those around us to bring about His perfect will, however because we are flawed humans that God has given free will to, we don't always follow His will for us. Often in our stubbornness, pride, and selfish desires we make decisions that are contrary to God's best for us. Saying that something worked out or didn't work out because of God's will relieves us of the responsibilities of our decisions. I believe that God can intervene in our lives but he chooses to let us make decisions that are sometimes outside His will.

[Randy Wise]

However I have questions about my view point. Is there a danger of stepping into a view point that does not allow for providence? Is it possible that I become ego centric seeing myself as the only factor that is important? I am the one that acts in my moments, God acts in me therefore I have no need to thank Him when life is good, additionally I have no need to blame Him or look to Him for answers when life is bad. Does God even consider my circumstances? Does He care about the pain I am in? I think the way I see things is truer to my broader theological perspective but I haven’t solved all the problems yet.

God works for the "good" of those that love him. Our bodies are currently mortal and therefore we "all" can and do have injuries, accidents, and illnesses. Some worse than others. It does seem "sometimes" like bad timing.

Once I had a long string of "bad" colds and finally cried out to God for healing. The next day I went to the store for something as I don't remember. But what I do remember was I found myself in front of the cold medicine and at that moment felt a loving touch from the Lord. Yes Jesus does love us and since He shared in our humanity long before modern medicine He "knows" what its like to have a human body. Since we also have "Christ in Us" Jesus has to be aware of everything we experience.

Randy

[Marsha Lynn]

I will always thank God for the good things that happen. I don't care whether He pulled out a trick just for me, or not. In either case, anything good reflects the good creation He made so I thank Him.

Me, too. I have heard that one of the saddest things about being an atheist is having no one to thank for the good things of life. I am so very thankful to have Someone to turn to in gratitude when life is good. If not responsible for this precise blessing, God is at least responsible for creating a world in which such blessings can occur. And sometimes the odds against the blessing are so high it's difficult to maintain a "these things just happen" mindset.


As to the bad things, I don't believe He is to blame other than that He created a world in which there is freedom. I presume He considered that to be a risk worth taking, even to the point of dying on the cross in order to fix things. If He was willing to pay that price, I don't think I should be the one to blame Him. One thing I have observed is that many of the "bad things" in life are actually clouds with silver linings. I will accept, in theory, that some things are simply bad all the way through but I haven't run into any of those things personally. The worst things that have come my way have, along with the pain, contained blessings at every turn. Even my encounter with cancer held blessing from beginning to end, including the biggest one -- identification with others walking the same path. How insufferable we would be if life were a bed of roses for us.

Marsha

[Ryan Scott]

I believe very strongly that God has set up a world that runs without God having to pull every string and level. For a number of years, that really led me to see God as nothing more than a cheerleader, giving us support when times were bad and helping us to remain humble when they were good.

While I still believe those roles are important ones for God in our lives, I also have to remember that had God not intervened in the world, we would not have Christ and were God not to intervene again, we would have no hope. From there it's been a gradual acceptance that God may in fact intervene at other times. I don't expect it, but I'm thankful and hopeful for those moments.

[Roland Hearn]

Well you guys are very little fun, we all seem to agree - We thank God for the good things because all good gifts come down from the fatehr of lights, even if we don't necessarily ascribe to the idea that God is specifically manipulating circumstances for my benefit. We believe that He has created a world where good is possible and He loves me directly the ultimate good. I think we agree that God does work in our circumstances from time to time without "pulling all the strings." It is a different thing to say God is able to draw good from evil than to say that God worked the circumstances that appear evil. Even if He works good from them the scriptural admonition to obstain from all appearance of evil is probably a standard that God Himself follows.

I do think it is important to differentiate between a spirit of thankfulness and a construct that sees God actually doing all those good things. I think the danger is a sense of bloated spiritual ego centricty when we go through a patch where we have a series of good times. We start sprouthing things about the way to effectively live under God's blessing continuously and then when evil comes we are a loss to explain how it happens - our faith is challenged. I personally believe that it is important to live with a thankful heart and let chance occur. After all on a planet of six billion people the odds are that good and bad will come into all of our lives.

[Hans Deventer]

Well you guys are very little fun, we all seem to agree -

Gracious, where I disagree with Tom it's a problem, and now it's also a problem when I agree with you. I can't do it right, can I? :smilies1722:

[Ryan Scott]

Not to interject controversy into this, but I've been thinking about this a little bit this week with Independence Day approaching. It's pretty common in the US for people to talk about July 4th as a day to thank God for our freedoms as US residents. I had a discussion the other day as to how many people are thankful to God that we have those freedoms and how many are thanking God for directly giving them to us. To me that's a big difference, and one that makes me uncomfortable.

[Roland Hearn]

Not to interject controversy into this, but I've been thinking about this a little bit this week with Independence Day approaching. It's pretty common in the US for people to talk about July 4th as a day to thank God for our freedoms as US residents. I had a discussion the other day as to how many people are thankful to God that we have those freedoms and how many are thanking God for directly giving them to us. To me that's a big difference, and one that makes me uncomfortable.

Obviously my national opinion on the answer has little significance but that is exactly the kind of issue that I am talking about. On the one hand you have the concept of a nation that has risen out of a reflection of God given desires within humanity, on the other you have a chosen people that God has specifically selected for His purpose. The latter gives way to a kind of nationalism that can, and has been, dangerous. The issue of God's favour on any individual or nation in a way that sets them apart from others does in fact call into question His love -Does God play favourites?

[Kevin Rector]

I just wanted to say that this was a good thread and I'm not sure how I missed it when it was active.

[Roland Hearn]

Seeing that you have raised this thread again Kevin it gives me pause to respond to Ryan's statement again about thanking God for US freedom. In light of the reality that the UK is today one of the world's great democracies and given that the Commonwealth is today made up of autonomous democracies I wonder what would have happened had the US lost the war of independence. The fact is there may be very little difference in the quality of life in the US today had it gone the other way and yet the victory of that war is the greatest, if not among the top two, defining realities in US history. Would Americans today thank God for loosing the war creating a mythology of what "might have been" had they won?