Called to serve

[DA Weaver]

I love the fact that God has called me to serve in such a capacity this year. However, I'm beginning to get a bit down hearted with the amount of people who are unwilling to actually commit to something. I couldn't tell you how many times I've heard "I'll do this, and that..." but they won't actually accept a commitment.

What concerns me more than anything is the fact that if God's people don't step up when they are called to do so, then Satan will send his people to fill the empty positions. I've seen ungodly people placed in postions because no one else was willing to serve, because of it, ministries suffered. It seemed as if Satan used it as his way of getting his foot in the door. I just don't want to see it happen at our church.

I'd love to put a big ole announcement in the bulletin that reads something like "Accept God's calling on your heart to serve before Satan sends someone to serve in your place."

Just rambling with some internal emotions right now... any thoughts on the issue of God's people not following his calling????

[Sara Sheppard]

DA -

How do you know that the other people have this particular calling?

You've kind of spoken in generalities....so I don't know the specifics.

But, all of us are very passionate about the area of ministry that we feel led to serve in. That does not mean that others are not just as passionate - but maybe in areas we know nothing about.

We must be careful not to pass judgement on other people's committment level.

Sara

[Barb Bouldrey]

Welcome to the church world of leadership, Denise. Take a survey and you will find that most churches have a hard time finding people to commit to anything in the work of the church. It is hard to fill a ballot with names willing to run. It is hard to find people committed to attend faithfully much less DO SOMETHING that requires faithful commitment.

It is true....20% of the people do 80% of the work. It might now be 10% of the people do 90% of the work.

I hear this from big churches as well as small churches.

Getting someone to share a 5 minute devotional in a mission service once a month can be a task.

It is discouraging, but accept it as normal. It is not YOU. You just have to pray and ask God to speak to hearts and lead you to speak to someone who is willing to help.

Once in a while John puts a help wanted list in the bulletin and then prays for God to speak to the people He wants to do those jobs. He puts in the bulletin, "If God is leading you to help in any of these areas, see the pastor." Most of the time someone steps up, often in tears, and shares that they are willing to try.

Barb

[DA Weaver]

DA -

How do you know that the other people have this particular calling? I believe everyone is called to serve, not necessarily at the same time or in the same ministry, but I believe as Christians, God calls each of us to serve in some capacity. Not everyone can serve at the same time, or there will be no one getting served.

You've kind of spoken in generalities....so I don't know the specifics. I did that on purpose. It just seems people who are willing (or were willing) to serve are dropping like flies.

But, all of us are very passionate about the area of ministry that we feel led to serve in. That does not mean that others are not just as passionate - but maybe in areas we know nothing about. I think I know where you're going with this, but I think you've misunderstood where I was coming from. The point I was making is what about God's people who are choosing not to commit to anything, people who stay within their comfort zone because it's what they know? I know what it's like for people to think you should be doing this, and you should be doing that. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about my personal opinion that people should be helping. I'm talking about OBVIOUS calls God has made. What I'm talking about is people who are avoiding ministry. If God's calling the young mother to serve her family, and she's doing it whole heartedly and following God's calling on her life, I have no problem with that.

What I do have a problem with is the year after year of God calling people to teach his children in either Sunday School, Children's Church, Caravan, driving the bus, supervising until the teachers get there, etc... I don't necessarily mean children's ministries either. I'm talking Senior Adults, Teens, Food Bank, Music Ministry, Organist, Pianist, Shut-in visitation, what ever ministry God is calling someone to. It's very disheartening to see the S.S. Superintendant BEG for teachers, substitutes, etc... If God's people don't step up and fill the places God is calling them to, Satan appears to be more than happy to see the ministries suffer, or to send the wrong person.

I don't know that I've made my point any clearer. I just know how I feel in my heart and KNOW if God's people don't step up to share his love, Satan will be right there to suck up every soul we pass by or miss.

We must be careful not to pass judgement on other people's committment level. I don't believe I did pass judgement on any one person's commitment level. I made a general statement about what Satan will do if God's people don't step up.

Sara


See reply above

[Barb Bouldrey]

Denise,

It is hard to see people who have successfully taught children in the past who refuse to do anything when there is a need. It is hard to have substitute teachers who only teach 2-3 times a year give it up just because they do not want to and the Sunday School has no more substitutes.

I understand exactly what you are saying because we have always pastored small churches. Every time we have had had people capable and even gifted in areas who refuse to do anything in the church except sit on a pew....as long as there is not something else to do on Sunday.

We have seen people who were committed to a lot begin to cut off this and then that and then start skipping Wednesday, then skipping Sunday nights, then skipping Sunday School until they had no jobs in the church and no commitment to faithfulness. Of course, that shows a spiritual problem that needs to be dealt with by the Holy Spirit.

Also, when a church has been hurt, it is harder to get people to step up and volunteer to take over jobs vacated because of the hurt. We have been there, too. Several times as troubleshooter pastors.

Once in a while we discover someone with hidden talents that when asked feel honored to help. Right now I am mentoring a new young woman to help with children's church mission service. As soon as she is confident enough to try, I will step out and allow her to lead.

Sara attends Trevecca college church. They have lots of people and lots of resources, but I imagine that if she asked the Sunday School Superintendent, she would find out that even a big church has difficulty always finding volunteers to commit to helping.

I think this problem is more visible in a smaller church. But it still exists in all churches to some degree.

It would be nice if everyone who did any job in the church felt "called" to do that work, but it is not realistic. Sometimes we have to find a breathing body who is just willing to learn.

Barb

[Brad Mercer]

I'm not sure how often we can actually safely presume to know what specific offices in the church God has called people. I frankly think most positions in the church typically have little or no impact on drawing anyone into closer relationship with God except possibly the person in the position.

In absolutely all cases, including senior pastor, I think it's far better to eliminate the position than to fill it by someone who isn't motivated by a real, passionate loving concern for the people to whom the position is theoretically designed to minister grace. The church burns out it's most committed, drives away the less committed and confirms the cynicism of the larger community by filling positions with people who have been shamed into taking the jobs by those whose job is to make sure that, by hook or by crook, every slot gets filled and every warm body gets put to work.

Brad

[Brad Mercer]

Sara,

I'm reading other people's responses after posting my own without much forethought. You said what I meant, but more succinctly and much more gently. Thanks! ;-)

Brad


DA -

How do you know that the other people have this particular calling?

You've kind of spoken in generalities....so I don't know the specifics.

But, all of us are very passionate about the area of ministry that we feel led to serve in. That does not mean that others are not just as passionate - but maybe in areas we know nothing about.

We must be careful not to pass judgement on other people's committment level.

Sara

[DA Weaver]

I'm not sure how often we can actually safely presume to know what specific offices in the church God has called people. I frankly think most positions in the church typically have little or no impact on drawing anyone into closer relationship with God except possibly the person in the position.

In absolutely all cases, including senior pastor, I think it's far better to eliminate the position than to fill it by someone who isn't motivated by a real, passionate loving concern for the people to whom the position is theoretically designed to minister grace. The church burns out it's most committed, drives away the less committed and confirms the cynicism of the larger community by filling positions with people who have been shamed into taking the jobs by those whose job is to make sure that, by hook or by crook, every slot gets filled and every warm body gets put to work.

Brad


Brad, I agree with the idea of eliminating positions before we are willing to copromise the ministry just to fill a vacancy. My concern is sometimes we as churches are so desparate to fill those vacancies that we don't care who's in there, just as long as SOMEONE / ANYONE is there. I was once placed in that position myself, to where I was told to either serve, or my family wasn't welcome to stay. I don't agree with that concept. It was not a ministry the Lord was calling me to. God used that opportunity to call us elsewhere.

[Marsha Lynn]

It is hard to fill a ballot with names willing to run. It is hard to find people committed to attend faithfully much less DO SOMETHING that requires faithful commitment.

It is true....20% of the people do 80% of the work. It might now be 10% of the people do 90% of the work.

I hear this from big churches as well as small churches.

Well, just for something different, I will tell you that when we have lay appreciation Sunday where I go to church, if we called up all the workers, there would be hardly anyone left in the pews to applaud them. Some accept positions that require faithful attendance, others do a little here and a little there, but virtually everyone participates in the work of the church somehow.

I've heard the 20/80 statement made, but it was obvious to me that the person making it had no clue how much ministry the people around him were involved in. He was looking simply at his own program and priorities and discounting ministry that he couldn't see.

Of course, maybe we're all simply the people Satan has sent to do the work of the church in place of the "saints" who stomped away because they weren't properly appreciated. :rolleyes:

Seriously, I find that it is often hard to land a job in the church. Leaders often don't realize that the approach they take for recruiting help makes it difficult for potential workers to find a place where they understand the requirements of the job, are confident that they have the required skills to do the job and the confidence of leadership in their ability, and are willing to sign the (unwritten) contract offered them.

Marsha

[Bob Evans]

Having now spent significant time on both sides of the pulpit I have reached the conclusion that people will do what they really want to do. I work 60 hours a week but still lead a small group and teach a Sunday School class.

I really beleive the local church is the hope for the world and even though I am involved in a para church ministry for a vocation my church still needs me and I do the best I can to do to do all I can.

Some things I can't do. there are some thigns the church does not want me to do. But the church has Got to survive if we want the kingdom to come.

[Gary Swartzlander]

Do you offer any kind of help to people discover their ministry or their passions?

Many people don't know how to identify those things on their own, many times even if it hit them up side the head.

We have used a Network program to help people understand their calls and then to help them find a ministry in the church that fits them.

[Billy Cox]

I encourage you to find out what it is that people ARE committed to. Until you understand what you are competing with, you will continue battling blind.

Here are some possibilities:

You might be competing with Visa, MasterCard, a couple of car loans, an oversized mortgage, and a home equity loan. By the time the two income earners work hard to support a lifestyle and do the requisite family activities, they have no more energy or passion to pour into the church.

You might be competing with a radical commitment to the traditional family. They are extremely jealous of any activity that cuts into their quality family time. Sunday School is great, but it's a mere shadow of the transformative power of a family that does everything together. You might get them to serve in a ministry (for a time) that directly benefits their own kids - and they outgrow that ministry at roughly the same time that their kids get promoted.

You might be competing with an unquenchable appetite for entertainment. Church is after all, pretty boring.


In each of these cases, it seems unlikely that the 'sheep' are going to wander out of their own predicament without some compassionate leadership.

If the sheep are wandering around getting picked off by wolves, it's time for the shepherd to stop praying for a miracle and allow God to make THEM a miracle in the life of the local church.

[Barb Bouldrey]

Well said, Billy.

Barb

[Wilson L. Deaton]

However, I'm beginning to get a bit down hearted with the amount of people who are unwilling to actually commit to something. I couldn't tell you how many times I've heard "I'll do this, and that..." but they won't actually accept a commitment.

Patience! Lots of it... As Gandhi has written, "without infinite patience it [is] impossible to get people to do any work."

Wilson

[Sara Sheppard]

See reply above


Hi DA,

Then I did misunderstand. Your original post made it seem that you were down hearted that people were not committed to a PARTICULAR ministry that you have been called too....not just ministry in general.

I understand being discouraged when people are not involved in minstry at all.

I would say a few things. First, in the "new membership" class - it should be explained that membership is an ACTIVE membership. It requires committment and INVOLVEMENT. And a portion of this new membership class should focus on ministries within the church (and not just serving IN the church but serving WITH the church for outreach). And then it should also involve spiritual gift assessment. Many people simply don't know their spiritual gifts and how to plug them in.

Also, we must be careful to remember that ministry exists OUTSIDE the church. Outside of my local church, I volunteer at schools and I've even been to know actually PRAY with people at work. *Shudder*. ;) My church doens't know about either of these ministries.

Barb is right...I am in a larger church but I grew up in a small church so I've seen both sides. I've also seen this large church I am in really transform in the last 5-7 years in untold ways. A year or so ago, one of our pastors went over all the compassionate ministry activities that had occurred throughout the year to our community. She then had everyone stand if they were involved with that ministry as it was mentioned. Some of these ministries were year-round ongoing ministries. Others were once a year activities Many people stood multiple times. Others stood only once. But nonetheless, by the time that long list of outreach ministries had been read....a HUGE percentage of our congregation had stood. It was a real blessing to see people involved in ministry. Did I know that they had been involved?? NOPE. Did I even know about all of the ministries?? NOPE. But God did and so did those who were ministered too.

Maybe one of the reasons people aren't involved in ministry is they do not see "socially relevant - meaning simply extending LOVE to other in Jesus name" ministry happening within their local church. And I'm not suggesting this is the case in your church at all. What I mean by that, is the ministries that I see people get so excited about and involved in are the ones that reach OUT of the church. Yes, yes...we need s.s. teachers to teach children IN the church on Sunday. But just try a community involvement activity and see if more might show up. You never know.

Sara

[Brad Mercer]

Brad, I agree with the idea of eliminating positions before we are willing to copromise the ministry just to fill a vacancy. My concern is sometimes we as churches are so desparate to fill those vacancies that we don't care who's in there, just as long as SOMEONE / ANYONE is there.

Right. And if you don't have the support of the entire church leadership team for the support I advocated, you really can't implement it. I spent a lot of time in board meetings and Sunday School class ranting the rant I ranted in my earlier post, just to be greeted by tolerant smiles and rolling eyes.

At NewStart-Frisco, on the other hand, which Roland and I planted with our paradigm firmly in mind from the beginning, every ministry in the church had enough workers that they could take turns at it, including preaching and children's ministries. And that was in a church full of brand new Christians that grew in attendance every year we were there, but still only had an average attendance of 72 the last year Roland was the pastor.

We did it by first loving people deeply enough that they came to a point of feeling confident that they actually had something valuable to give, and came to a point where they burned with love for other people to the extent that they were desperate to help heal and affirm the people around them in ways and through gifts, talents and inclinations that came naturally to them. Along the way we watched for their gifts and passions so we could offer them a chance to do something we knew they'd enjoy and be good at, but not take their identity from. Because we knew them well enough to make that call correctly, they were nearly always surprised but curious and eager to give it a try. And we walked with them hand in hand through the learning process, and assured them that every ministry would be on a temporary and/or rotating basis. That meant they wouldn't burn out, could quit for a while when it became a duty instead of a passion, and they'd have ongoing opportunity to continue to be fed and ministered to instead of becoming isolated and sucked dry by what had become a responsibility instead of a joy.

To really make it work requires some real working through of personal issues by the entire church leadership team, rather than just writing a new policy. It can be done, though. Our ministries in a big or small church can really minister to people and be a joy to the ministers.

Brad

[DA Weaver]

Do you offer any kind of help to people discover their ministry or their passions?

Many people don't know how to identify those things on their own, many times even if it hit them up side the head.

We have used a Network program to help people understand their calls and then to help them find a ministry in the church that fits them.

Gary,

Are you talking about programs like finding out what your spiritual gifts are? The last time I recall a church I was a part of doing something like that was when I was a teenager. I'm not saying the churches haven't offered those kinds of things, I'm just saying that's the last time I remember one being offered. It's a great suggestion though. :fav18

[DA Weaver]

.

Of course, maybe we're all simply the people Satan has sent to do the work of the church in place of the "saints" who stomped away because they weren't properly appreciated. :rolleyes:

Marsha


Sorry, I can't manage to find the "Spanks" button. I didn't at all insinuate that you or anyone else on this board were people Satan had placed in service positions.

If you are someone who has NEVER seen Satan use the wrong person for ministry, then you are a very blessed individual.

I, on the other hand, have seend churches place people in leadership rolls. Individuals who were "holy, holy, holy" on Sundays, but the second they walked out of the church doors, or were behind closed doors, were cussing and abusing their kids, and living a life of sin. Like it or not, Satan does use ungodly people to fill rolls that should be filled by Godly individuals. Thankfully, even in those circumstances, God seems to bring something good out of a bad situation. :fav18

[Brad Mercer]

Sorry, I can't manage to find the "Spanks" button. I didn't at all insinuate that you or anyone else on this board were people Satan had placed in service positions.

If you are someone who has NEVER seen Satan use the wrong person for ministry, then you are a very blessed individual.

Like it or not, Satan does use ungodly people to fill rolls that should be filled by Godly individuals.

Yes, but Satan doesn't place those people in leadership positions, the church does. The church has to re-think the reason for those positions instead of placing people in positions they clearly don't have the gifts or heart for. Satan's not who I'd blame. Sometimes not much is actively required of him. We do a lot of his work for him because we don't spend enough time thinking about what we're doing and what its actual effect is as opposed to its expressed intent. We get set on autopilot or become controlling in response to our own fear that vital work won't get done otherwise. If the church is functioning on fear, control and inertia, Satan can probably devote himself to someplace else where his attention is required more.

Brad

[DA Weaver]

Hi DA,

Then I did misunderstand. Your original post made it seem that you were down hearted that people were not committed to a PARTICULAR ministry that you have been called too....not just ministry in general.

I understand being discouraged when people are not involved in minstry at all.

I would say a few things. First, in the "new membership" class - it should be explained that membership is an ACTIVE membership. It requires committment and INVOLVEMENT. And a portion of this new membership class should focus on ministries within the church (and not just serving IN the church but serving WITH the church for outreach). And then it should also involve spiritual gift assessment. Many people simply don't know their spiritual gifts and how to plug them in.

Also, we must be careful to remember that ministry exists OUTSIDE the church. Outside of my local church, I volunteer at schools and I've even been to know actually PRAY with people at work. *Shudder*. ;) My church doens't know about either of these ministries.

Barb is right...I am in a larger church but I grew up in a small church so I've seen both sides. I've also seen this large church I am in really transform in the last 5-7 years in untold ways. A year or so ago, one of our pastors went over all the compassionate ministry activities that had occurred throughout the year to our community. She then had everyone stand if they were involved with that ministry as it was mentioned. Some of these ministries were year-round ongoing ministries. Others were once a year activities Many people stood multiple times. Others stood only once. But nonetheless, by the time that long list of outreach ministries had been read....a HUGE percentage of our congregation had stood. It was a real blessing to see people involved in ministry. Did I know that they had been involved?? NOPE. Did I even know about all of the ministries?? NOPE. But God did and so did those who were ministered too.

Maybe one of the reasons people aren't involved in ministry is they do not see "socially relevant - meaning simply extending LOVE to other in Jesus name" ministry happening within their local church. And I'm not suggesting this is the case in your church at all. What I mean by that, is the ministries that I see people get so excited about and involved in are the ones that reach OUT of the church. Yes, yes...we need s.s. teachers to teach children IN the church on Sunday. But just try a community involvement activity and see if more might show up. You never know.

Sara

No, this is something that's been building up for quite some time...a couple of years. I've witnessed the challenges faced by the S.S. Super., the Caravan Director, Children's church director, the Preacher, etc...

I whole heartedly understand the ministry outside of church concept. That has been an issue in my own life. For three years, the Lord called me to serve at my children's school, leaving little time to minister within the church. I know there were church members who didn't understand at the time, but I was following God's calling on my life and was volunteering 3 hours a day at school. Between work, being a wife, the mother of four, and volunteering at school, that left little time to volunteer at church. However, I was following God's call in my life at that time. Last year God released me from the school. It was at that time that he spoke to my heart about getting more involved at church. lol, I just had NO CLUE how involved he had intended for me to get.

As for "reaching out"... it's most definitely a concept God has placed upon my heart this year. Prior to running for NMI President, the Lord laid a saying on my heart.... "Bring Missions Home". Meaning to reach out to our community, and the unchurched families that are just a stone's thow away.

I'm glad you now appear to have a better understanding of where I was coming from.

[Gary Swartzlander]

Gary,

Are you talking about programs like finding out what your spiritual gifts are? The last time I recall a church I was a part of doing something like that was when I was a teenager. I'm not saying the churches haven't offered those kinds of things, I'm just saying that's the last time I remember one being offered. It's a great suggestion though. :fav18

Yes, that's exactly what I am talking about. However once someone has found out what their gifts are, then be sure to provide them an avenue to use those gifts in the church. We have people who set down with a person following the classes and help them figure out what ministry in the church might be good for them and then make sure they connect with that ministry leader to get involved. We have a series of classes that we ask people to go through as part of the membership process, this is one of them, but it is not limited to those who are seeking membership. It is open to anyone looking find their place in the church.

[Marsha Lynn]

If you are someone who has NEVER seen Satan use the wrong person for ministry, then you are a very blessed individual.

Sorry to twist your words, Denise. The thing is, I don't have much place in my theology for Satan as an omnipresent anti-God. As far as I can see, the force that we refer to as "Satan" is basically "self-exaltation" personified. (And that's all I have to say on that topic in this thread. Any further discussion would require a dedicated thread in the theology forum.)

Yes, I have certainly seen amplified self-interest do much damage in the church. I have also known plenty of people who talked the talk much better than they walked the walk. (There is a connection between hypocrisy and amplified self-interest in that the chief motivation for living as a hypocrite is the desire appear better than we are.) However, harmful self-interest crops up even in "normal" saints who are called by God to fulfill the positions in which they serve but who still struggle with issues of self.

Like it or not, Satan does use ungodly people to fill rolls that should be filled by Godly individuals. Thankfully, even in those circumstances, God seems to bring something good out of a bad situation. :fav18

And since we all serve imperfectly as broken people battered by the storms of life, we can all be thankful for that.

Marsha

[Marsha Lynn]

I mentioned earlier that sometimes it is difficult to land a job in the church. I wonder if we could all use lessons in making it easy to do ministry. Several have mentioned that a start is a "spiritual gift" assessment (which doesn't actually assess spiritual gifts but natural skills and talent -- but that's another thread). Yes, it helps if both I and church leaders know what I'm good at. However, that doesn't guarantee me a place of ministry.

Right now I'm involved in music ministry. I have a list of people who have indicated a willingness to participate in the music of the church. I have the freedom to involve those people, although I don't have a true mandate to do so. Those people know that I could work them into the music program if I chose to do so, that I have enough influence to get them on the docket. Every week that passes by without anyone tapping them to be involved is one more blow to their self-esteem.

This position of influence weighs heavily on me. Confidence as a musician depends heavily on positive feedback. I feel like I'm trying to keep track of a bunch of eager puppies in a big yard with no fence and I'm always in danger of losing one without noticing.

The difference between those who are involved in the music program and those who are being overlooked is complex. Some are more persistent than others. Some know more songs than others. Some learn new songs more easily than others. Some can read standard music, others need special arrangements. Some are more available for practice than others. Some require more lead time and practice time than others. Some are more likely to remember to show up for practice and for the service where they're scheduled to sing than others. Some will show up better prepared than others.

Beyond all of these factors that make it more or less difficult to involve a particular person is the fact that some can make more pleasing music than others. However, everyone on my list is equally acceptable to me to be involved. None of them is without musical ability and need to be kept far away from a microphone. I would like to see every one of them in the rotation for music ministry. The challenge is how to find ways for them to succeed given my own limitations as far as time and talent.

Example: We have a lady who is learning to play the piano as an adult. She played one special early on. However, the next time she was asked to play, she "choked" in the middle of the song and walked away in defeat, unable to finish the song. I need to give her an opportunity to try again and make sure she doesn't fail again. Perhaps we need to bring in a keyboard and have her play the melody with someone else accompanying. We could invest significant time in preparation so that she is completely comfortable playing that song on the keyboard at the front of the church before we bring in people to listen. This is something on my "to do" list. However, it has been months now and I haven't summoned up the energy to make it happen.

When I put myself in the shoes of this budding pianist, I see the long weeks of not being asked to participate again and think that there's no place in the church for bumbling beginners. However, that's not the case at all. It's simply that my "to do" list has a dozen similar cases and Sundays come on relentlessly and it's all I can do to simply get by without taking on the difficult tasks. It will require effort on someone's part to make it easy for more people to be involved and succeed.

I feel like it's never so simple as people being apathetic toward calls to service in the church. We need to find better ways to make it easy to get into a position and succeed in it. Sometimes we are closing doors even when we think that we are opening them, such as when we ask people willing to be involved in music ministry to sign up for it and then don't manage to lay out a path into the music program which they are capable of walking given their level of ability and confidence.

Marsha

[DA Weaver]

I mentioned earlier that sometimes it is difficult to land a job in the church. I wonder if we could all use lessons in making it easy to do ministry. Several have mentioned that a start is a "spiritual gift" assessment (which doesn't actually assess spiritual gifts but natural skills and talent -- but that's another thread). Yes, it helps if both I and church leaders know what I'm good at. However, that doesn't guarantee me a place of ministry.

Right now I'm involved in music ministry. I have a list of people who have indicated a willingness to participate in the music of the church. I have the freedom to involve those people, although I don't have a true mandate to do so. Those people know that I could work them into the music program if I chose to do so, that I have enough influence to get them on the docket. Every week that passes by without anyone tapping them to be involved is one more blow to their self-esteem.

This position of influence weighs heavily on me. Confidence as a musician depends heavily on positive feedback. I feel like I'm trying to keep track of a bunch of eager puppies in a big yard with no fence and I'm always in danger of losing one without noticing.

The difference between those who are involved in the music program and those who are being overlooked is complex. Some are more persistent than others. Some know more songs than others. Some learn new songs more easily than others. Some can read standard music, others need special arrangements. Some are more available for practice than others. Some require more lead time and practice time than others. Some are more likely to remember to show up for practice and for the service where they're scheduled to sing than others. Some will show up better prepared than others.

Beyond all of these factors that make it more or less difficult to involve a particular person is the fact that some can make more pleasing music than others. However, everyone on my list is equally acceptable to me to be involved. None of them is without musical ability and need to be kept far away from a microphone. I would like to see every one of them in the rotation for music ministry. The challenge is how to find ways for them to succeed given my own limitations as far as time and talent.

Example: We have a lady who is learning to play the piano as an adult. She played one special early on. However, the next time she was asked to play, she "choked" in the middle of the song and walked away in defeat, unable to finish the song. I need to give her an opportunity to try again and make sure she doesn't fail again. Perhaps we need to bring in a keyboard and have her play the melody with someone else accompanying. We could invest significant time in preparation so that she is completely comfortable playing that song on the keyboard at the front of the church before we bring in people to listen. This is something on my "to do" list. However, it has been months now and I haven't summoned up the energy to make it happen.

When I put myself in the shoes of this budding pianist, I see the long weeks of not being asked to participate again and think that there's no place in the church for bumbling beginners. However, that's not the case at all. It's simply that my "to do" list has a dozen similar cases and Sundays come on relentlessly and it's all I can do to simply get by without taking on the difficult tasks. It will require effort on someone's part to make it easy for more people to be involved and succeed.

I feel like it's never so simple as people being apathetic toward calls to service in the church. We need to find better ways to make it easy to get into a position and succeed in it. Sometimes we are closing doors even when we think that we are opening them, such as when we ask people willing to be involved in music ministry to sign up for it and then don't manage to lay out a path into the music program which they are capable of walking given their level of ability and confidence.

Marsha

Marsha,

In interest of the adult piano student, I wonder if suggesting she play for children's church isn't an option. As a child I recall hearing the halls humming with a piano, or two, or three while S.S. classes, or children's church sang along. It seems we're in a world of DVD's and VHS, etc... I couldn't tell you the last time that I actually heard a musical instrument played for children's church. I've seen churches give away their pianos because they had simply become a piece of decoration and were going unused. If an extra piano is available, why not suggest she play "Jesus Loves Me" for toddler church, or something for children's church? Perhaps this would get her into the practice of performing in front of people. Generally only a couple other adults would be around, and she would more than likely get praise from the children for a job well done.

Just a thought.....

D.W.

[Marsha Lynn]

Marsha,

In interest of the adult piano student, I wonder if suggesting she play for children's church isn't an option.

There are always multiple options for getting people involved. And my observation is that everyone is willing to be involved if they are offered the right option in a way that makes it easy for them to accept it. The thing is that those options take time and effort to implement. When you multiply the effort required by the number of people who need someone to open doors for them and escort them through those doors, the task quickly exceeds the available time and energy. And those who require the most assistance often get left behind. Either those acting as doorkeepers need to be more diligent or more people need to be empowered to open more doors -- or both.

In the case of my piano-student friend, she is very involved in church ministry and certainly doesn't need another assignment. I would just like to somehow offer her a chance to succeed where she tried and failed -- if I could find a way to do it easily. (I too am already overcommitted.)

Marsha

[Laurie Florence]

Sorry, I can't manage to find the "Spanks" button. I didn't at all insinuate that you or anyone else on this board were people Satan had placed in service positions.

If you are someone who has NEVER seen Satan use the wrong person for ministry, then you are a very blessed individual.

I, on the other hand, have seend churches place people in leadership rolls. Individuals who were "holy, holy, holy" on Sundays, but the second they walked out of the church doors, or were behind closed doors, were cussing and abusing their kids, and living a life of sin. Like it or not, Satan does use ungodly people to fill rolls that should be filled by Godly individuals. Thankfully, even in those circumstances, God seems to bring something good out of a bad situation. :fav18

I must be one of those "blessed individuals" that has never seen anyone used by satan in the form of volunteering to serve at church. Frankly, I don't understand how the unselfish act of volunteering to serve in church would in any way be connected to satan. Yes, some people may mistakenly choose a job that is not in line with their talents. However, they will soon grow to realize this, and move on to a service more in line with their gifts. Honestly, this puzzles me. How could loving your church and volunteering to serve in it (however ineptly), have anything at all to do with satan? :fav03

[DA Weaver]

I must be one of those "blessed individuals" that has never seen anyone used by satan in the form of volunteering to serve at church. Frankly, I don't understand how the unselfish act of volunteering to serve in church would in any way be connected to satan. Yes, some people may mistakenly choose a job that is not in line with their talents. However, they will soon grow to realize this, and move on to a service more in line with their gifts. Honestly, this puzzles me. How could loving your church and volunteering to serve in it (however ineptly), have anything at all to do with satan? :fav03

Count your blessings, name them one by one....
1. You've never seen Satan use someone to try to corrupt work within the Lord's house.

PTL!!!!! :fav18

[Barb Bouldrey]

Denise,

Whenever a carnal spirit within a member of the church causes dissention and tension in the church, it is Satan at work in their lives. You are right.

Whenever SELF is in control and causing someone in the church to stir up trouble, it is the carnal nature at work. And SELF has its root in evil.

When someone demands their way in the church, they are being controlled by self, not the Holy Spirit. And that always causes problems.

Sometimes we make the mistake of allowing someone who is carnal to hold a position in the church because no one else will do it. And that usually causes problems.

I know exactly what you mean. From experience.

We need sanctified, willing people to help build the kingdom.

Barb

[Laurie Florence]

Denise,

Whenever a carnal spirit within a member of the church causes dissention and tension in the church, it is Satan at work in their lives. You are right.

Whenever SELF is in control and causing someone in the church to stir up trouble, it is the carnal nature at work. And SELF has its root in evil.

When someone demands their way in the church, they are being controlled by self, not the Holy Spirit. And that always causes problems.

Sometimes we make the mistake of allowing someone who is carnal to hold a position in the church because no one else will do it. And that usually causes problems.

I know exactly what you mean. From experience.

We need sanctified, willing people to help build the kingdom.

Barb


This is scarey stuff. I guess the best we can do for our church is to pray that we will always be controlled by the Holy Spirit, and that our ministry reflects this.

[DA Weaver]

Denise,

Whenever a carnal spirit within a member of the church causes dissention and tension in the church, it is Satan at work in their lives. You are right.

Whenever SELF is in control and causing someone in the church to stir up trouble, it is the carnal nature at work. And SELF has its root in evil.

When someone demands their way in the church, they are being controlled by self, not the Holy Spirit. And that always causes problems.

Sometimes we make the mistake of allowing someone who is carnal to hold a position in the church because no one else will do it. And that usually causes problems.

I know exactly what you mean. From experience.

We need sanctified, willing people to help build the kingdom.

Barb

Barb,

Thank you so much for your reply. You've been able to word things so much better than I. I prayed about this thread most of the night durring a restless slumber. My wish is not to degrade God's people, nor his church. I'm going to try to be more careful that the things I say are uplifting, and beneficial to God's kingdom. Speaking of the destruction Satan can cause within the church isn't necessarily beneficial to the Lord. Although, sometimes things must be addressed, they don't necessarily need to be addressed here.

D.W.

[Barb Bouldrey]

Denise,

You were just expressing your frustration as a newly-elected department head and board member in your church. You are just now learning first hand how difficult it is in many churches to find people qualified and willing to help in all the programs a church feels is necessary.

Our church currently is having difficulty finding substitute Sunday School teachers. Some qualified teachers that have done it in the past just do not want to do it any more. No reasons. Just do not want to.

Fortunately, we have not had many carnal, critical spirits cause trouble in our pastorates over the years. But I have known of it happening in other churches around me. Oh, the stories I could tell....but I won't. LOL

Barb