To Joel & other DIYers. . .

[Brian Hammons]

Joel,
Since you have posted photos of your renovation work, I thought I would direct this to you. Any other DIYers, with useful info, please share your knowledge.

I am about to imbark on this great adventure of home ownership, & there are a few things that need done. I'm not a very accomplished do-it-yourself type of person, but I'm looking forward to trying. Here's one of my first projects:

I need to put in some GFCI outlets. I'm not concerned with the ones in the bathrooms, for they are single outlets. However, there are several outlets in the kitchen on the same circuit. I would like to install one in the first position (fed by the load wires) and achieving GFCI protection on all outlets in the line from that first one. My question is this- Is there some way I can determine which one is the load outlet (in the first position) or is it a matter of trial & error?

Also, what do you think of Black & Decker power tools? I realize there may be better brands (DeWalt, Porter Cable, Makita, etc., ) but I need to keep reminding myself I'm not a contractor, just a weekend DIYer. Am I getting a good product when I buy B&D?

Thanks to all for any feedback, and I'll be back to ask more questions later, I'm sure.

brh

[Glenn Harris]

Joel,
Since you have posted photos of your renovation work, I thought I would direct this to you. Any other DIYers, with useful info, please share your knowledge.

I need to put in some GFCI outlets. I'm not concerned with the ones in the bathrooms, for they are single outlets. However, there are several outlets in the kitchen on the same circuit. I would like to install one in the first position (fed by the load wires) and achieving GFCI protection on all outlets in the line from that first one. My question is this- Is there some way I can determine which one is the load outlet (in the first position) or is it a matter of trial & error?

brh

Outlets run in parallel. They are all hot on the breaker, not each other.

By load I assume you mean the one that is the first one in line from the breaker box. It's a mute point. You would want your ground fault protection on any outlet that has the possibility of coming in contact with water. The primary reason they put them in bathrooms and on outdoor outlets is to protect people from the possibility of getting electrocuted by an appliance or device that gets shorted out in water.

I have them on the outlets in my bathrooms and my deck but not in my kitchen or any of the living spaces.

[Dave McClung]

Outlets run in parallel. They are all hot on the breaker, not each other.

By load I assume you mean the one that is the first one in line from the breaker box. It's a mute point. You would want your ground fault protection on any outlet that has the possibility of coming in contact with water. The primary reason they put them in bathrooms and on outdoor outlets is to protect people from the possibility of getting electrocuted by an appliance or device that gets shorted out in water.

I have them on the outlets in my bathrooms and my deck but not in my kitchen or any of the living spaces.

Glenn

While you may be technically right, it is common to have an entire circuit on one GFI unit. There are two ways to do it.

1) The way I prefer is to install a gfi breaker in the breaker box. It will provide gfi protection to the entire circuit. That way it isn't necessary to determine which outlet is first on the circuit.

2) The second way is to put in on gfi outlet, then connect the hot wire from that outlet to the hot terminal on the other outlets in the circuit. My house was wired that way when it was built.

Now, to answer the question, determining the routhing of the wire is a combination of logic and trial and error. Remember that the electrician who installed the orginal circuit would want to use as little wire as possible. In most cases the outlet closest to the electrical box will be first. Wire will run from it to the other outlets on the circuit.

You can determine which outlets are on a circuit by plugging a radio into an outlet and turning it loud enough that you can hear it from where the breaker box is located. Go to the breaker box and turn off one circuit at a time until the noise from the radio stops.

And, it goes without saying -- don't work on a live circuit. I know that professional electricians do it, but dyi electrictians shouldn't. Turn off the power before taking the cover off of outlet boxes. The money you save by dyi isn't enough to pay for a serious electrical shock.

[Dave McClung]

[quote=Brian Hammons;93221"... Also, what do you think of Black & Decker power tools? I realize there may be better brands (DeWalt, Porter Cable, Makita, etc., ) but I need to keep reminding myself I'm not a contractor, just a weekend DIYer. Am I getting a good product when I buy B&D?

Thanks to all for any feedback, and I'll be back to ask more questions later, I'm sure.

brh[/quote]

I own several Black & Decker Tools. They won't last as long as some of the other brand names you mentioned, but are fine for people like you and me.

To tell the truth, I rarely wear a tool out. I usually replace it because I can't find the old one. I recently bought a Black & Decker power sander because I couldn't find my "good" one. It cost half as much and functions exactly the same.

I recently bought another battery operated drill -- not because I really needed another one, but becaise it was cheaper than replacing the battery on my "good" one.

My advise is to buy the cheapest tool you can find as long as it will do the job. Invest in a good set of drill bits and a carbide tiped saw blade, but for other tools save your money.

[Kevin Rector]

Outlets run in parallel. They are all hot on the breaker, not each other.

By load I assume you mean the one that is the first one in line from the breaker box. It's a mute point. You would want your ground fault protection on any outlet that has the possibility of coming in contact with water.

I'm not sure this is accurate. If you GFCI the first outlet on the circuit then the entire circuit is GFCIed. The GFCI measures the difference in current between the white and black wires to detect if the current suddenly stops flowing through the white wire - since the current must flow through the black wire in the GFCI and then back through the white wire it can measure this for anything after itself on the circuit.

You should GFCI what you think is the first outlet then plug a radio into what you presume is a down circuit outlet. Then just hit the test button in the GFCI outlet if the radio turns off then you know that the radio's outlet is after the GFCI outlet. Move the radio until (and if) you find an outlet that doesn't turn off. Double check the outlets are on the same circuit and then move the GFCI to the one that didn't turn off. Run the test on every outlet again (including the one you moved from). If for some reason both outlets are on the same circuit but one GFCI can't control the other outlet you probably have a pigtail somewhere (where the black and white wires are being split prior to the outlets) and you'll have to GFCI both outlets then test more.

The important thing is that all outlets that can possibly come into contact with water (within 6' generally) need to be GFCIed.

Also another route (though generally more expensive) is to get a GFCI circuit breaker and replace the entire circuit breaker which instantly and without any testing GFCIs the whole circuit.

Of course I am not a licensed electrician or anything.

[Brian Hammons]

SIZE]

[SIZE=3]1) The way I prefer is to install a gfi breaker in the breaker box. It will provide gfi protection to the entire circuit. That way it isn't necessary to determine which outlet is first on the circuit.

Just the kind of info I'm looking for! I wasn't aware there was a GFI breaker. And I've never replaced a breaker. . .I'm guessing it's pretty much the same as replacing an outlet. Oh, and the power to the box switched off, and not just the circuit itself.

As far as the first outlet, I figured it would be trial and error. However, when I take on T&E projects, I end up with more error than success usually. You don't ever want to take me to Vegas as a good luck charm!

[Kevin Rector]

And I've never replaced a breaker. . .I'm guessing it's pretty much the same as replacing an outlet.

No it's not, and it's easier to die doing it, so know what you're doing before you do it. I can not stress this enough: Respect the inside of the electrical box so that you can stay alive..

You do not turn off the main breaker (or fuse) to turn the electric off to the breaker (although you can for sure if you want the peace of mind). If you do though have a good battery operated flashlight and someone to hold it because 100% of the electric current to your house will be cut off and you'll need good light and both hands.

What you do to change a breaker is turn it off, pull out the old breaker without touching any of the metal behind it (or really any of the metal in the box if you don't know what is what - you may need to pop it out with a flathead screwdriver), unscrew the wire from the old breaker, then screw the wire into the new breaker and just pop it back into place.

When buying a breaker make sure you get the right one for your brand of box. There are basically three styles of boxes and so three styles of breakers. When I've changed them in the past I always have taken the old one out and taken it to the store to compare with the one I'm buying.

Also, make sure you get a breaker with the same amp rating as the one you are replacing. You really don't want to put a higher amp rated breaker where you previously had a lower one. For instance, if you take out a 15 amp breaker you can't put a 20 amp breaker in and if you take out a 30 you can't put in a 50 etc. This is because you can overload the circuit without triping the breaker which can seriously overheat the wires which can be a pretty serious fire hazard.

You can get really good wiring books at Lowes or Home Depot for $15 or less that will tell you all you need to do with great pictures, and will also tell you how to be safe (which is the most important thing).

Again, I am not a licensed electrician, I've just done a bunch of wiring in my short life.

[Cindi Hammons]

I have your answer.

Call Dan Naylor and offer him a pizza and a case of cold...pop. He can fix you up electrically toot-sweet! :)

Have fun!

[Joel Merrill]

First of all, of the major brands, Black and Decker is about the cheapest. But like you said, you are not a contractor. If you aren't going to be using it a lot or really hard, why spend the extra money. I own a few Black and Decker tools. I wouldn't buy anything cheaper than a Black and Decker, especially if it is a brand you never heard of.

First some basics because I don't know how much you know. In your outlet you will have 2 and hopefully 3 wires. The black wire is the hot wire and goes to the gold screw. The white wire is the "grounded" wire, often called the common wire. It goes to the silver screw. You hopefully will also have a bare wire or a green wire. It is called the "grounding" wire. If you have it, it goes to the green screw. A lot of homes don't have the grounding wire. Don't worry about it if you don't but if you ever have to add a circuit and run new romax, by all means, use the grounding wire.

I have in front of me a book called, "Practical Electrical Wiring". As a home owner, you may want to pick up a book about wiring. Menards and places like that will have a wide variety of do it your self books for the home owner. Here is what that book says about Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupters:

"Under normal conditions the current in the hot wire and that in the grounded wire are absolutely identical. But if the wiring, tool, or appliance is defective and allows some of the current to leak to ground, then a ground-fault circuit-interrupter (GFCI) will sense the difference in the current in the two wires. If the fault current exceeds the trip level of the GFCI, which is between 4 and 6 mA, the GFCI will disconnect the circuit in as little as 1/40 s."

I've done a lot of wiring and generally I prefer the GFCI outlets to the breakers. The breakers don't seem to last and they cost more. You do need them in your bathroom too as well as your kitchen and outdoor outlets. I would seriously consider putting them in your basement and garage too. The outlets will have two places to connect to. One will say "Line". That is the connection from your breaker box. The other connection will say "Load". That is where you hook up the other outlets. Of course they come with instructions. Dave's way of finding which breaker is a good way. Like has been said, finding the lead outlet is trial and error but once you find the circuit you want to protect, the lead outlet is probably the one closest to the breaker box. How you could test that is turn off the breaker and then take a wire off what you think is the lead outlet. Then turn the breaker back on and test the other outlets. If they are dead, you found the lead outlet.

What I would do is locate the breaker and turn it off. ALWAYS check every outlet you are going to be working on for voltage before you start. (You can buy a simple circuit tester tool that looks like a plug. They are generally yellow and have some LED's in them. You can plug that into an outlet and it will tell you if it is dead. If it is live, it will indicate some, but not all, of the faults that could be wrong in that circuit.) Once the circuit is dead, remove the cover and the screws that hold the outlet in and pull the outlet out enough so you can see the connections. First look at the age and condition of the wire. You didn't say how old the house is. Look and see if it is the modern romax with the plastic outer insulation. That is what you want. If it is older, I would have someone look at it. Look and see if the wire or the connections have been hot. If they have been, you need to replace the outlet anyway. If it is an old two prong outlet that doesn't have the 3rd ground prong, I would also replace it because it is really old and is probably no good. What happens is, if an outlet gets hot, the metal connectors inside that grip the prongs of a plug lose their temper. Then they don't make a good connection and will keep on getting hot. If you plug something in and the plug fits lose or pushes in and out really easy, that is another indicator that the outlet has been hot and is no good. That is where fires start. Look and see if it has a bare grounding wire connected to it. If you don't have it, don't worry about it too much but it is always nice if it's there. That little circuit tester plug will tell you if it is working. When you buy outlets, often they will have a really cheap outlet and a better one. The better one isn't much more expensive so buy the good one. The last thing you want to look at is if you can pull the outlet out enough to get to the wires and make the connections. Sometimes the wires are so short that it might be easier to install the breaker. GFCI outlets are physically larger and some outlet boxes are really small.

P.S. Check to make sure your city codes will let you don this. You may have to hire an electrician to be legal.

Good luck, Joel

[Brian Hammons]

First of all, of the major brands, Black and Decker is about the cheapest. But like you said, you are not a contractor. If you aren't going to be using it a lot or really hard, why spend the extra money. I own a few Black and Decker tools. I wouldn't buy anything cheaper than a Black and Decker, especially if it is a brand you never heard of.

Thanks for the tips and info, Joel. I'll be using the tools quite a bit over the summer. I have a little more than a week left of school, and then I get to start! But after that, It will be much more as a hobbyist/weekend warrior. If $$$ wasn't a concern, or I would be earning a living off the tools, I would most certainly go with DeWalt, etc. I've always watched the home improvement shows on TV, but especially over the last 8 weeks or so. I've noticed Tom Silva of This Old House and others are using Hitachi power tools frequently. At Lowe's & Home Depot they are priced between B&D and DeWalt products.



I have in front of me a book called, "Practical Electrical Wiring". As a home owner, you may want to pick up a book about wiring.

I've come close to buying one, but I've resisted so far- primarily because of price. I've done a bit of internet reading on several topics, but this computer is so-o-o-o-o slow and I'm weary of the ads. I guess I'll break down and get one. There are a couple of other electrical type projects I'll be considering before the end of the summer, so I'm sure I'll get some good information out of it.

I have a couple of different circuit testers. I wouldn't have even considered buying this house if the wiring was so old as to not have grounded outlets. BTW, it was built in the early- to mid-60's. I've checked the outlets with my tester, and it indicates the ground is functional in each of them.

P.S. Check to make sure your city codes will let you don this. You may have to hire an electrician to be legal.

This causes me to chuckle! Until I married Joyce and moved here to WV 8 years ago, I have always lived under some sort of municipal jurisdiction. In this particular area, "municipal jurisdiction" is a bit oxymoronic. There are 2 small towns with popluations near 2500 that has some codes and enforcement that goes beyond the state level. Beyond that, there is little in the way of codes, and even less in terms of enforcement out in the rural county areas.

Good luck, Joel

Thanks! I'll probably need it!

Brian

[Glenn Harris]

Home projects.

I stand corrected.

Glenn "the tool guy" Harris

[Joel Merrill]

Thanks for the tips and info, Joel. I'll be using the tools quite a bit over the summer. I have a little more than a week left of school, and then I get to start! But after that, It will be much more as a hobbyist/weekend warrior. If $$$ wasn't a concern, or I would be earning a living off the tools, I would most certainly go with DeWalt, etc. I've always watched the home improvement shows on TV, but especially over the last 8 weeks or so. I've noticed Tom Silva of This Old House and others are using Hitachi power tools frequently. At Lowe's & Home Depot they are priced between B&D and DeWalt products.
Brian
I've seen Hitachi tools but I have no experience with them. At work we use mostly Milwaukee but they are way too expensive for the average home owner. I have a little bit of everything at home from Skil to Bostitch. Makita tools are big around here. They are kind of pricey. I had a Makita sander and I didn't like it at all. I prefer DeWalt. They have to be good. They sponsor the Red Green Show :basic05

Joel