Music at church

[DA Weaver]

Balinda's post made me think about the music at our church.

When my husband and I started there nine years ago, we both felt as if we were listening to a funeral march. In the first six months we were there, there were more funerals than I could count.

The music hasn't changed a whole lot since we began. We did have a pastor who, for a while, attempted to bring in more contemporary music, but since he left, the church has reverted back to mostly old gospel hymns.

The problem is, my children don't know those hymns for the most part. It's not what they've been raised on. Thankfully the school they attended was pretty good about keeping up with contemporary music. Also, we have new converts who listen to groups like Jars of Clay, and Newsboys, etc... They aren't familiar with the old hymns either, because they weren't raised in the church.

This can be a VERY sticky issue within our church. I can understand not wanting to completely do away with the hymns. I personally feel they're an important part of our church, and an important part of keeping many of our elderly involved at church. However, I also see the need for more contemporary music. We need it for the younger generation, and for the new believers as well.

Prior to our last full time minister, our church had about five families in my age category (give or take 5 years). I was able to count on one hand how many families were within our age group. Our last pastor was able to breech that gap and was able to bring in younger families. PTL!!!!!

For the most part, the older part of the congregation isn't really growing in numbers. I would tend to say their numbers are declining. Currently w/o a pastor, I really don't see any church growth for the most part. However, I feel very strongly that if we're going to once again become a growing church that we really need to find a happy medium between old time gospel music and contemporary music. My wish isn't to run off those who love the older music, but we need to be a church that is willing to reach out to the younger generation as well. It's a balancing act, a difficult one, I can only imagine.

I'm not a worship leader, I'm not a song leader, I'm just someone who sees the need for a change in music. If the change doesn't come, I really don't see our church growing in the future. I think the old gospel songs need to be taught, heard, and appreciated by our younger generations, but I also think our older generations need to be open to a little different music than what they're accustomed to. I.E. one contemporary song for each older hymn. Unless of course, the pastor feels a certain type of music would fit his message better.

Just my two cents, which in the whole scheme of things doesn't mean a whole lot. I'm just curious as to where other churches are on this issue.

D.W.

[Ryan Scott]

As one of the "younger generation" I hate to see this as a debate between hymns and contemporary songs. Frankly, many examples of both are shallow lyrically or horrible theologically.

There are many great hymns, with strong messages that support what we believe about God and the same can be said, to some extent, for modern songs as well.

What I see as the issue is the music itself. Most congregations that struggle with the "funeral" music have a piano and maybe an organ. I think a lot can be done to add extra musical elements. Of course, you're going to need a song leader who can effectively pull good music from many different sources to make it work.

I, for one, would hate to go to a worship service where hymns were absent, but I really hate it when we end up singing songs (both ancient and modern) that are in direct contradiction to the Wesleyan theology that (hopefully for us Nazarenes) comes from the pulpit.

[Barb Bouldrey]

John has done a great job of having a blended worship service. Most of his music sequences involve both hymns and choruses...usually each sequence in the same key or progressing upward in key changes.

When we moved here the church was doing all hymns with a very old prayer chorus. John began teaching them new choruses, slowly and usually on Wednesday nights so some would be familiar with them.

When we bought the projector and screen and began using them for our worship, John put the entire service on the screen using wonderful backgrounds that he finds here on NazNet. Some people grumbled at first, but now we only see one or two who use the hymnal to sing along.

Denise, this is a nation-wide problem. It is not just your church. This music issue has caused more fuss in the church than any doctrinal issue ever has.

Part of the problem has been the people who come in and want to change everything immediately. When you take away what is familiar, it causes tension and stress.

It is all in how it is handled.

Now, I STILL believe that brand new YOUNG people who come to the church right out of the world, will enjoy hymns if they are done right. I do not believe it has to be an age issue.

We have discussed this over and over on NazNet, at least once a year, and the same things come to light:

People do not like change.
People do no like sudden change.
People do not like sudden complete change.
Some people will never like the new music.
Some people will never try to like the new music.
There are no easy answers.
Change is necessary.
Changes does not need to drive out the older people.
Change should consider the feelings and commitment of the older people.
Change should be done gradually.

I am sure there is more. But that is all I can think of ...and enough. LOL

We have people who have come to our church from the Assembly of God. Every now and then they will say, "I don't know that song. It must be a Nazarene song." We sing songs they have never heard...but we still sing them and they learn them.

Barb

[Ryan Scott]

Can I express my pet peeve to you in love, Barb?

I really don't like it when every song that's not a hymn is referred to as a chorus. Certainly there are some songs that repeat the same four lines and deserve the moniker, however, many songs written in the last hundred years do in fact have verses, some of them are even hymns, if you want to get technical.

I know that this is and was not your intention, but I've been around too many church people who use the word "chorus" to refer to something that is somehow lesser than a hymn. It's just a pet peeve of mine that I wanted to bring up.

[Barb Bouldrey]

Ryan,

I understand what you are saying. But we have sung choruses for generations. Let me explain.

Growing up in the church and starting in our ministry, almost all choruses were just that....the chorus of a song. You know, a song that has verses with a mutual chorus.

We sang "Fill My Cup," "Oh, How I Love Jesus," "I Love Him Better Every Day," "He Touched Me." Etc. All of these choruses were the choruses of songs that had verses.

We have the Master Chorus Books and books of Praise choruses and all the music in those books are short songs with no VERSES.

MAYBE the new music we sing and refer to as choruses have verses, but I have never seen them because all we use to learn them and play them come out of books with just what we sing.

I guess to be politically correct in church music we are now suppose to say "hymns and praise songs?" But then you do not want anything political in the church. (tongue in cheek here)

So, when someone says "chorus" they are thinking of something SHORT, not something inferior.

And you are correct that we should not call any song a chorus if it has no verses.

It is just habit. Not meant to put down contemporary music or praise SONGS.

It is along the same line as our former D.S. talking to the pastors and saying, "You GUYS," when we have some women who are pastors. You get used to saying something a certain way...as a habit.

Barb

[Ryan Scott]

It is along the same line as our former D.S. talking to the pastors and saying, "You GUYS," when we have some women who are pastors.

You're right. These habits can be painfully hard to break. You have nothing to prove to me about your sincerity. I just grew up in a church where "chorus" meant both "young people music" and "inferior." Thus it's hard for me not to cringe when I hear it. (Much the same way its hard not to cringe when someone says you guys in reference to pastors).

I don't think I'd differentiate between hymns and praise songs either. I'd call them songs and part of the music that makes up part of our worship.

[Barb Bouldrey]

We are all who we are by the influences in our lives.

Off the subject....The Methodist pastor and his wife in one our our pastorates were our close friends. One day he was moaning about something in fun and I said, "Oh, Poor Baby..." and he immediately reacted strongly to hearing me say that. He told me that his first wife always said that to him as a put down.

I never again joked with him in that way. I respected his feelings.

If you and I were in the same room visiting, I would be careful not to use the word "chorus," out of respect for your pet peeve.

We have one man who must have been raised in your church...because that is what I hear from him about the type of song he does not really want us to ever sing. (See, I did not use that bad word. LOL)

The environment of our youth influences us more than we will ever know.

Barb

[DA Weaver]

As one of the "younger generation" I hate to see this as a debate between hymns and contemporary songs. Frankly, many examples of both are shallow lyrically or horrible theologically.

There are many great hymns, with strong messages that support what we believe about God and the same can be said, to some extent, for modern songs as well.

What I see as the issue is the music itself. Most congregations that struggle with the "funeral" music have a piano and maybe an organ. I think a lot can be done to add extra musical elements. Of course, you're going to need a song leader who can effectively pull good music from many different sources to make it work.

I, for one, would hate to go to a worship service where hymns were absent, but I really hate it when we end up singing songs (both ancient and modern) that are in direct contradiction to the Wesleyan theology that (hopefully for us Nazarenes) comes from the pulpit.

I certainly hope my original post didn't come off as a "complaint". We have one gentleman in our congregation who's doing his best to pull together music and worship for the entire congregation @ 175 people, ages infants to 90+ years old.

My original post stemmed from a conversation last week between myself, a gentleman from my generation and his parents.

I'd say he's a bit more eager than I am to get more contemporary music into church. Yet his parents are a bit more eager than I am to stick with the songs out of the hymnal.

Personally, I love the old hymns... songs like "I come to the garden alone, while the dew is still on the roses...", or The Old Rugged Cross, How Great Thou Art, Blessed Assurance, Softly and Tenderly, When We All Get to Heaven, Tis so Sweet, Are You Washed in the Blood, I'll Fly Away, What A Friend We Have in Jesus, Standing on the Promises, Turn Your Eyes Upon Jesus, etc... At the same time, there are some new songs / choruses I would love to learn, but w/o hearing them seems to be impossible.

[Glenda Harvey]

Last year an older couple visited our Church who were new to the mountain. They were having trouble finding a Church because they were looking for a Church that sang the old hymns and were finding that nearly all the evangelical Churches had worship bands and sang primarily praise and worship songs. They finally settled into our Church. One Church in our community did actually advertise for awhile that they were a Church that still sang the old hymns. I heard that they ended up giving up on that format and went back to the praise an worship songs.

Choirs with robes and organs and pianos in the Church are becoming a thing of the past. I think that it is still good to include some of the older hymns in worship. Our former worship leader used to include at least one hymn in his Sunday morning line up of songs and sometimes he would talk before hand about the story behind the writing of the song. That was a good way to help the younger people in the Church see the value of the song and appreciate it.

[Scott Hilton]

I think they need to update the hymns to progressive rock music like Neal Morse or Phil Keaggy and then I will be happy...........

I know, I live in dreamland sometimes, lol.

I do tend to like a mixture of hymns with some contemporary, but either way I know I am there to praise Him first and worry about the "style" of worship last. When I walk out of church, I can slip the CD of choice into my cd player to hear my "style". However in my car, I can not praise God to music with a large gathering of fellow believers at the same time around me. I sometimes wonder if the real meaning of praise music during church is not mentioned enough to the congregation......

blessings
Scott

[Bob Evans]

I like old hymns and organ music an awful lot. AND CAN IT BE with a third modulation between the last to verses makes me cry it blesses me so much

My wife says I like old hymns because I am an old him:basic05

However, as much as I like old hymns I don't want to get in the way of the spirit. So I asked the Lord to give me eyes to see and hear contemporary music. And after five years my singing of hymns in the shower have bee replaced by contemporary music. [THATS A GOOD THING]

I DON'T EVER WANT TO BE A ROAD BLOCK TO THE SPIRIT AT WORK IN MY LIFE OR IN MY CHURCH.

I think what happens for so many people reach the conclusion that the only way the spirit can move is what were use to. And it simply isn't not that way. And I do wish those who draw lines and fight over church music would reach the same conclusion.

[Ryan Scott]

My absolute favorite song in the world is "Be Thou My Vision" and I'm not sure we have an older hymn around anywhere.

I agree its more about style and rhythm, etc.

[Barb Bouldrey]

I have heard pianists in different churches play the same song, same 4/4 timing at 4 different speeds.

3 ladies who all taught piano lessons....one of them with a music degree from a Nazarene school...and each of them had their own style and tempo. One played so fast it took extra breath to keep up with her. Another played the same song so slow, I couldnt believe it was the same song.

Snycopation????? I would love to hear some of that, but someone whould have to teach college-educated music teacher how to do it. She plays things exactly as written....her way. LOL

And then there was the pianist who changed the tempo in the middle of the song...several times. LOL

Not many churches can expect perfection in their music.

Barb
LOL

[Barb Bouldrey]

When putting together a worship service, John will find a song he really likes because the words fit so well in the progression of what he wants to present. But when he tries to fit that song in with the tempo of the other songs it just does not fit.

It is very hard, at times, to fit a contemporary song into a blended worship sequence. Sometimes the "blending" has to be a set of contemporary and a set of hymns with prayer between. It is easier to keep the rhythm that way.

The flow of the music from one song to another is important...be it timing or key change.

It has not been too many years since all of our music was just whatever the song leader chose with a little talking between songs. LOL I am sure it is still that way some places. We had one song leader one place that gave little sermons before each song and it drove me nuts. John finally got him corraled and the entire congregation was thankful.

Barb

[Gord Evans]

Who says you can't have it both ways? I'm convinced that the "old hymns of the church" can easily have a face-lift that will seamlessly allow them to be sung, heard and enjoyed within the context of a more contemporary worship service. We do it nearly every Sunday at Cedardale church.

We do, also, have a worship team that tends to stick to the "traditional hymns" pretty much out of the hymnal, accompanied primarily by a pianist ... however, more recently they've added a bass guitar, acoustic guitar and drums.

We also have a youth worship team that takes the whole musical worship time to a distinctively new level. Grace abounds!

Here're a few examples of what I'm talking about ... the "old hymns" with a contemporary face-lift ... see what y'all think:


1. Be Thou My Vision (http://www.praisecharts.com/product/audio/m3u/low_2358_ref_low.m3u)

2. Blessed Assurance (http://www.praisecharts.com/product/audio/m3u/low_2359_ref_low.m3u)

3. Christ The Lord Is Risen Today (http://www.praisecharts.com/product/audio/m3u/low_2360_ref_low.m3u)

4. When I Survey the Wondrous Cross (http://www.praisecharts.com/product/audio/m3u/low_2367_ref_low.m3u)

5. It Is Well With My Soul (http://www.praisecharts.com/product/audio/m3u/low_2363_ref_low.m3u)

6. Amazing Grace (http://www.praisecharts.com/product/audio/m3u/low_2357_ref_low.m3u)

7. Holy, Holy, Holy (http://www.praisecharts.com/product/audio/m3u/low_2362_ref_low.m3u)

8. To God Be The Glory (http://www.praisecharts.com/product/audio/m3u/low_2366_ref_low.m3u)

9. Crown Him With Many Crowns (http://www.praisecharts.com/product/audio/m3u/low_2361_ref_low.m3u)

10. O Worship The King (http://www.praisecharts.com/product/audio/m3u/low_2365_ref_low.m3u)

[Shawna Atteberry]

When we bought the projector and screen and began using them for our worship, John put the entire service on the screen using wonderful backgrounds that he finds here on NazNet. Some people grumbled at first, but now we only see one or two who use the hymnal to sing along.

Barb

I'm laughing because I'm 36, and I use the hymnal. I sing alto, and I cannot sing by ear, but I can sight-read. I think I was the only one using the hymnal at District Assembly Monday. Doesn't anyone sing harmony anymore?

As far as which style of music: I like both hymns and newer songs, and I think churches should do both. We need to keep our roots, but let new branches grow as well. Like Ryan I want both to have good theology. That is much more important to me than which style of music it is.

[Barb Bouldrey]

I can learn new songs much more easily if I can follow the music or hear the melody line.

Barb

[Billy Cox]

I certainly haven't attended many Nazarene churches, but I have a feeling that so-called blended music is just a transitional phase that has almost run its course.

'Blended' used to mean that there was a contemporary song amid several hymns/gospel songs.

In churches that I have visited within the past few years, that pattern has been reversed; meaning a 'great hymn' amid several contemporary songs.

I would say that 'blended' in most churches will soon mean doing an older contemporary song amid several of the newer contemporary songs.

[Jim Franklin]

I'm not sure I should even respond to this thread. Old geezers are not "what is happening." I know of a long time church musician who says that many of the new short songs are musicologically "out of sync" and really hard to play on pianos or organs. I, myself, feel that we need to sing praise, worship songs and gospel hymns. The Bible is not just made up of the Psalms but includes the gospel of the Old and New Testaments. To eliminate any of the three is like cutting out part of the Bible in a church service setting. Personally I prefer piano and organ instruments to guitars and drums. We have difficulty having a coherent Sunday School class because of the sounds coming from nearby. The one factor that really bothers me is amplification. Anything above 80 decibels is a form of torture and it is not because I have my hearing aid turned up because I do not have one nor do I need one. Having trained to fit and sell hearing aids I do know that the hearing aid companies are overjoyed and raking in the dough from younger and younger people who have burned out their sense of hearing on too loud of what I can not call music. When it gets too loud, my wife says, "Don't hold your hands over your ears, get out." So I do. I have left many church services. Just like I said on another thread, I am getting to old to be a Nazarene.

[Billy Cox]

One of the milestones of my music development was taking a hymnology course at SNU in the early 1990s.

Despite having sung and played music in traditional Nazarene churches for my entire life, I didn't know ANY of the hymns that we were looking at in class even though most of them were in the Nazarene hymnal (Worship in Song).

At that point and since then, I have become convinced that what is sung in most Nazarene churches is contemporary music, the only difference being whether the music is contemporary to the turn of the 20th century or contemporary to the turn of the 19th century.

[Ryan Scott]

Yeah, hymns are disappearing and its frightening to me. My wife grew up with a worship pastor for a mother and doesn't hardly know any hymns.

I grew up in congregations where we sang a lot of them and learned many that I still know completely by heart. Now I love some of them and I abhor some of them. One of the most frustrating things to me is that some of the hymns that are most fun to sing and most enjoyable to a lot of people, are the ones with either awful or awfully shallow theology.

[Marsha Lynn]

I can learn new songs much more easily if I can follow the music or hear the melody line.

Barb

I've spent hours and hours over the past few weeks trying to figure out a way to have "notes on the wall" along with the words. We have been going thru a big transition musically and lately have been introducing new songs every week. That means developing new slides every week. (We're trying to rein our enthusiasm in so people will have a chance to learn the songs.)

Well-meaning people have tried to make me feel better about my multiple generations of failures -- "How many people read music?" (Maybe only a few but they happen to be the best musicians in the church.) "Only one person has complained about not having notes, right?" (Right. But he was simply echoing what I have thought for years.) "Doesn't everyone know this song? We've sung it before, haven't we?" (Maybe, but old songs are new songs to new people and we want new people, right?)

I smile and say, "I have a new idea to try. I think I can get this."

Here's my latest attempt. It needs a few tweaks but is the most satisfactory yet in terms of time invested and quality of results.

Marsha

PS: If anyone knows of an easy way to get similar results, I sure would be interested to hear about it.

[Ryan Scott]

I don't read music, or even sing very well, but I always pick the hymnal up when I can. I do it mostly because when we sing hymns we tend to skip verses, which just kills the theological story of the song. I want to make sure I can at least read the words we're not singing.

We also tend to skip the verses and even whole songs that are "downers," which also seems sad to me.

[Cindi Hammons]

Marsha,

That looks fantanstic BUT also like a lot of work!! Work I would not be willing to invest. If you do that, the next complaint you will get is from people wanting the "other" notes so that they can sing harmony!:eek:

[Ryan Scott]

the next complaint you will get is from people wanting the "other" notes so that they can sing harmony!


You know what John Wesley said about that.

[Marsha Lynn]

I'm not a worship leader, I'm not a song leader, I'm just someone who sees the need for a change in music. If the change doesn't come, I really don't see our church growing in the future. I think the old gospel songs need to be taught, heard, and appreciated by our younger generations, but I also think our older generations need to be open to a little different music than what they're accustomed to. I.E. one contemporary song for each older hymn. Unless of course, the pastor feels a certain type of music would fit his message better.

Denise, I have been where you are. Things didn't change until we all figured out that we had one foot in the grave and were teetering on the brink. Even then, more people had to leave before we had the freedom to change. Those that stayed are the "thick and thin" people. We've been to the bottom and seem to be coming out the other side.

I would encourage you to not focus solely on the music. My daughter (23 years old) keeps reminding me that "it's not about the music". The music reflects the mindset of the church rather than defining it.

The one mantra that has helped me the most over the years is this:

I can't change the church by changing other people, but I can change myself and I am part of the church, a member of the body. When I change myself, there is a slight shift in the church as a whole because one small part of the church has changed.

The Lord asked Moses, "What do you have in your hand?" When nothing in my hand had anything to do with the music at church, I focused on the areas where I did have some influence. One of those areas was my own children. I purposefully introduced them (and myself and whatever friends of theirs would tag along) to Christian music that was more appealing to them than what they heard at church and then gave them the resources to discover more on their own. I have never been an advocate for taking sole responsibility for my children's education. Rather, I enrolled them in Sunday School and in the public schools. My husband and I then became their primary resource for supplemental learning activities to fill in the gaps the educational institutions weren't filling. And often we discovered that the institutions left the fun parts for us to cover. I have fond memories of sitting on a blanket cooking in the sun, regularly applying sunblock and carefully sipping water to avoid heat exhaustion, while listening to band after band whose words I couldn't understand playing music that all sounded alike to me, and occasionally doing a head count of the teenagers who had agreed to accompany us to a local Christian music festival. And my husband got to meet the Newsboys while directing traffic one year!

Marsha

[Roland Hearn]

I would encourage you to not focus solely on the music. My daughter (23 years old) keeps reminding me that "it's not about the music". The music reflects the mindset of the church rather than defining it.

That is a very good line. So much of what happens in a church is about "us" rather than "them". I hate the destinction but none the less there is a group in the church and a group outside the church that we suggest we would like to see come into the church.

Every component of the church service, and church life for that matter, should be thought through in terms of its impact upon someone coming into the church for the first time. If it doesn't make sense or is compelling for them don't do it at all. The fact is if things genuinely meet the needs of the first time attender and, this is vital, is compelling and inspiring, it will meet the needs of the long time attender too. However, when our attitude is, "I don't know why my church can't consider my needs," and it is amazing how much of the church is built around that idea, the end of result is new people find things offputting and old people find them comfortable. Neither finds them transformational.

[Cindi Hammons]

I started a philosophical change in our music at church today. It may sound silly to some of you, but it is a big deal to me.

We have always stored our music in binders...Choruses...and Hymns in different binders. What a pain! Today I purchased a file drawer and began joining together the music so that we now have "songs," not contemporary or hymns...all combined.

Sometimes all it takes is a change in your head. :)

[DA Weaver]

Denise, I have been where you are. Things didn't change until we all figured out that we had one foot in the grave and were teetering on the brink. Even then, more people had to leave before we had the freedom to change. Those that stayed are the "thick and thin" people. We've been to the bottom and seem to be coming out the other side.

I would encourage you to not focus solely on the music. My daughter (23 years old) keeps reminding me that "it's not about the music". The music reflects the mindset of the church rather than defining it.

The one mantra that has helped me the most over the years is this:

I can't change the church by changing other people, but I can change myself and I am part of the church, a member of the body. When I change myself, there is a slight shift in the church as a whole because one small part of the church has changed.

The Lord asked Moses, "What do you have in your hand?" When nothing in my hand had anything to do with the music at church, I focused on the areas where I did have some influence. One of those areas was my own children. I purposefully introduced them (and myself and whatever friends of theirs would tag along) to Christian music that was more appealing to them than what they heard at church and then gave them the resources to discover more on their own. I have never been an advocate for taking sole responsibility for my children's education. Rather, I enrolled them in Sunday School and in the public schools. My husband and I then became their primary resource for supplemental learning activities to fill in the gaps the educational institutions weren't filling. And often we discovered that the institutions left the fun parts for us to cover. I have fond memories of sitting on a blanket cooking in the sun, regularly applying sunblock and carefully sipping water to avoid heat exhaustion, while listening to band after band whose words I couldn't understand playing music that all sounded alike to me, and occasionally doing a head count of the teenagers who had agreed to accompany us to a local Christian music festival. And my husband got to meet the Newsboys while directing traffic one year!

Marsha

Thanks for the input Marsha. Although, I believe I'm going to leave the music to the music people for the most part. I've got enough on my plate between NMI President and Secy of the Church Board. I don't want to gripe, I don't want to complain. I just notice a need for some change, and would support bringing in more contemporary music a little more often. I wouldn't want to see the old hymns go out the door, would just like to see it mixed up every once in a while.

[DA Weaver]

I started a philosophical change in our music at church today. It may sound silly to some of you, but it is a big deal to me.

We have always stored our music in binders...Choruses...and Hymns in different binders. What a pain! Today I purchased a file drawer and began joining together the music so that we now have "songs," not contemporary or hymns...all combined.

Sometimes all it takes is a change in your head. :)

WOOOOOO WHOOOOOO!!!!! (Clapping for you here!!!!!) Sounds like a much easier way to file things too!!!!

[Cindi Hammons]

Sounds like a much easier way to file things too!!!!

Bingo!

[Marsha Lynn]

I started a philosophical change in our music at church today. It may sound silly to some of you, but it is a big deal to me.

We have always stored our music in binders...Choruses...and Hymns in different binders. What a pain! Today I purchased a file drawer and began joining together the music so that we now have "songs," not contemporary or hymns...all combined.

Sometimes all it takes is a change in your head. :)

Cindi, I'm curious. Why not store the hymns in the hymnal? I guess I don't understand what it is you're storing. Are these special arrangements of the hymns or copies to be put in order for a service or what? I'm still trying to work out music organization.

Marsha

[Mike McVey]

Cindi, I'm curious. Why not store the hymns in the hymnal?

I'm not sure about Cindi, but for me, a regular hymnal that would be in a pew does not help much when sorting music for the reason that I can't read music, so I need the bigger book with the chords in it.

Also, I find it easier when planning worship to pull every song that seems to follow the theme of that week's scripture. And as I pray, play, and scrutinize I put the songs back into the file. Flipping pages in a hymnal causes more of a hassle.

[Brad Mercer]

However, when our attitude is, "I don't know why my church can't consider my needs," the end of result is new people find things offputting and old people find them comfortable. Neither finds them transformational.

Wow. Perfect. That's what I meant to say.

Brad

[DA Weaver]

However, when our attitude is, "I don't know why my church can't consider my needs,"

I hope I didn't come off as having said that. My concern isn't for me, it's for reaching out to others who might want to attend our church in the future. I'm not saying it's impossible, because I know with God all things are possible. However, I do not see how our church can continue down it's present course and remain as active in the community as it has been.

Our church is one of the biggest on the district. However, much of our church consists of older members. This has been the case for many years now. I love having the older members as a part of our congregation. I can't imagine our church w/o them. They are a vital part of our church. Yet, reality is they are older. Within the next ten years we're more than likely going to lose a good percentage of our congregation due to old age.

Just to put things into perspective, I took a glance through our directory, and the individuals I know who attend our church on a regular basis. 73 out of 194 individuals that I know are @ 70 years old or older (all based on my guessing everyone's age of course). @ 35 of the 194 are under the age of 18. Given the current rate of churches loosing children raised in the church (of course I have no idea what that current rate really is, but based on my personal experience I'd say most everyone I know who was raised in the church @ 50% choose to stay in church and @ 50% choose to leave.) Given the current birth rate of @ 2 babies per year over a ten year span = 20.

Given the statistics above, there's a good possibility that within the next ten years our church could loose 73 members due to old age, 17 due to children growing up and leaving, but we'll add 20 to that figure in hopes of continuing the current birth rate. Which leads one to think that within the next 10 years we have the potential of losing 70 members of our congregation, taking our average from @ 194 down to 124. Along with them will go much of the finances as well. I think it's a given that most older members are more faithful tithe givers than the younger generations are. Perhaps that comes with wisdom? I don't know, but I know most individuals in my generation and younger do not have the heart for tithing like the older generation does.

Now, let's put this all into perspective.... Within the next 10 years, the Lord could return, and we won't have to worry about how many members of our congregation we'll be loosing or not. In the meantime though, I think we need to face reality and be prepared just in case the Lord doesn't choose to return between now and then.

lol, enough babbling~ Just my mind running, thinking about the future of our congregation....;)

[Billy Cox]

You know what John Wesley said about that.

Could lead to dancing? :basic02

[Marsha Lynn]

Marsha,

That looks fantanstic BUT also like a lot of work!! Work I would not be willing to invest.

Actually, I'm getting faster at it. I decided it's sort of like working puzzles or doing a craft project. I could make little x's into a cross-stitch sampler to hang on someone's wall or I could put 1,000 puzzle pieces together to form a pretty picture and then tear it apart again and put it back in the box ... or I can arrange notes on a computer screen so that people can have music with new choruses. Of course, it's not quite that simple in that I was neither doing crafts nor working jigsaw puzzles before I started all this. There's still the problem of making some space in my schedule.

If you do that, the next complaint you will get is from people wanting the "other" notes so that they can sing harmony!:eek:

Yeah, well, more power to 'em. I'll put together a songbook for them. :basic02

Actually, the one person who asked for notes has backed down after seeing all my false starts and hearing the discussions and figuring out that it might not be an easy request. Now I'm doing it because of all the times that I have wished for notes when learning a new chorus off of the screen.

My husband has complained because Lillenas is not handling this sort of thing for us. Personally, I am thrilled with what Lillenas is doing to make contemporary worship music more accessible to church musicians. "The Chorus Book", "All the Best Songs of Praise and Worship" (the purple book) and "All the Best Songs of Praise and Worship 2" (the green book) are wonderful in that they present the songs in a compact manner rather than spread across page after page like in other books.

Marsha

[Anne and Dwayne Hood]

If a church is a praying church, as ours is, the Holy Spirit will lead the service, and the minds of those leading the service. It seems that we need to center in on being more like Jesus, and His spirit will lead the service. At the beginning, middle, and end of the service, EVERYONE will feel as if they have been with Jesus--that is except an occasional one or two, etc. old gripers, that no one can satisfy them. Go with the flow of the Holy Spirit.
When we center in on the music and what we think is best, the Spirit is hindered. We need to daily pray, "Have Your Own Way Lord" We chose that for our son's funeral service. That does not mean that we did not care. But Christ may have something different in mind than we do.