Liberal or Conservative

[Glenda Harvey]

I have come to realize in reading the various discussion that the Nazarene Church is really a mixed bag, while some groups would consider the Nazarene Church conservative ie: our stance on abortion, gay lifestyles, drinking and smoking, etc. Other groups might consider us liberal ie: ordination of women & womens roles, differing opinions about literal Bible translation, differing opinions on creationism, etc.

When you think of the Church of the Nazarene do you think liberal or conservative?

[Ian Gentles]

Yes, slightly lol

[Stan Self]

I once thought it highly conservative, until I joined Naznet.

[Ryan Scott]

It depends where you live and which Nazarens you're most closely associated.

[Mike Wooldridge]

I once thought it highly conservative, until I joined Naznet.

I think of CotN, in general, as conservative. So far, the regulars on NazNet strike me overall as more open to new ideas than other Nazarenes I have regular contact wth.

[Scott Hilton]

depends on your definition of liberal and conservative, lol.

[Jim Franklin]

The Nazarene denomination in which I came of age was conservative, Taft was preferred over Eisenhower in 1952 and in 1948 a Nazarene union member came to our parsonage door early on Election Day to tell his pastor that he was proud to have voted for Dewey. I suppose some academic could write a book on the liberalization of the Church of the Nazarene. Some of the NazNetters who no longer post consider some of the current active members as the "liberal fringe" of the denomination.

[Mike Wooldridge]

Some of the NazNetters who no longer post consider some of the current active members as the "liberal fringe" of the denomination.
I wear that label proudly!

[Ian Gentles]

I think NazNet is very different from denomonition in particular

[Mike Wooldridge]

I think NazNet is very different from denomonition in particular

Very much agreed, Ian!

[Anne and Dwayne Hood]

Glenda, you could say, "All of the above," for the difference in beliefs in different parts of the globe--among Nazarenes. My mother, if she were alive, and had the mind to know, would think of me as liberal.

[Joanne Vergin]

I wear that label proudly!

Yes Mike, you seem very fringey to me. :eek:

[Jim Franklin]

Why should the NazNet membership be far more liberal than the denomination as a whole? Are those of a liberal bent the outspoken minority who want to make an impact in the thinking of the denomination as a whole to become the majority?

[Greg Farra]

I think that the COTN is pretty middle of the road from my perspective. I was a conservative in a liberal denomination. To paraphrase Lloyd Benson," I knew liberals. Liberals were my denomination. You guys are no liberals!". Sorry to burst your bubbles, fellers, but you've got a long way to go!!!:basic07

[Ryan Scott]

Yeah, we're certainly not Southern Baptists, but we're closer to them than we are to Episcopalians. We've got like two out of five liberal stars.

[Dave McClung]

I have come to realize in reading the various discussion that the Nazarene Church is really a mixed bag, while some groups would consider the Nazarene Church conservative ie: our stance on abortion, gay lifestyles, drinking and smoking, etc. Other groups might consider us liberal ie: ordination of women & womens roles, differing opinions about literal Bible translation, differing opinions on creationism, etc.

When you think of the Church of the Nazarene do you think liberal or conservative?

It is all a matter of perspective. My Bible Missionary relatives consider the Church of the Nazarene to be very "liberal." My Methodist relatives consider the Church of the Nazarene to be "conservative." When I think of the Church of the Nazarene, I think "middle of the road."

[Hans Deventer]

Why should the NazNet membership be far more liberal than the denomination as a whole?

Jim, I do have the impression Mike is right. I think it may have to do with the kind of people that join an online forum. That shows you're willing to try something new. Of course there are conservatives who do so as well, but I still think there is something to it.

Next, by doing so one steps out of the local church. That church may be quite closed to new ideas, but at NazNet, you'll hear a wide range of opinions. If you can deal with that and stick with NazNet, you're already different from the folks who just want to keep things the same.

[Mike Wooldridge]

Yes Mike, you seem very fringey to me. :eek:

If that was a compliment thanks, if not, well I've been called worse. :rolleyes:

[Mike Wooldridge]

The truth is when I was sitting by my wife's death bed most of what we talk about here didn't matter a whit. That's not to say it doesn't matter now. When the time comes though, what matters is a relationship not a denominational or conservative/liberal label.

[Glenda Harvey]

It is all a matter of perspective. My Bible Missionary relatives consider the Church of the Nazarene to be very "liberal." My Methodist relatives consider the Church of the Nazarene to be "conservative." When I think of the Church of the Nazarene, I think "middle of the road."


I think it is because we are moderate and middle of the road that ultra conservatives think we are liberal and ultra liberals think we are conservative.

[Meghan Schoonover]

I loled at the two out of five stars liberal. I would agree...maybe flipping back and forth between two and three? Ha.

[Mike Wooldridge]

Yeah, we're certainly not Southern Baptists, but we're closer to them than we are to Episcopalians. We've got like two out of five liberal stars.

I'm probably about a 4.

[Dennis M. Scott]

There are some other labels I might include: liberated, paranoid, resistent, exploratory, concilatory, hardnosed, moderate, dogged, consistent, inconsistent, faithful, etc., etc. Shades of different folk.

Depends on a lot of things, I guess, especially in that the liberal/conservative label can be political or theological, and the two not necessarily lining up parallel.

Generally, church going folk are more conservative than those that don't. Do you think it's cause and affect, or merely coincidental? Is it that going to church tends to encourage conservatism, or that conservative people are simply more likely to go to church?

There is a similar question. Does being a part of naznet encourage one to be liberal, or is it that liberal folk engage more in stuff like naznet?

[Mike Wooldridge]

Does being a part of naznet encourage one to be liberal, or is it that liberal folk engage more in stuff like naznet?
I think people who are more open to new experiences, ideas and thoughts are likely to be on NazNet. I guess if that means liberal depends on your perspective.

[Barbara Moulton]

I have seen more and more lately an emphasis on the "Nazareness" of NazNet. A growing assumption that everyone is Nazarene. But we aren't. It's for "friends of the Nazarene Church too" :-)

We had to leave the Nazarene Church 7 years ago. Since then, discussions have normally been ones that I felt free to participate in fully. That's still largely the case. But more of the threads now seem to be targeted to Nazarenes. I sometimes hesitate to voice an opinion because I am not sure I have the right to do so. I am not criticizing anyone for this. It's just the way the board is evolving.

Going back to the subject at hand. It is all relative. As I have stated before. In Canada I am considered conservative. On NazNet I am considered liberal :-)

Blessings,
Barbara

[Hans Deventer]

I have seen more and more lately an emphasis on the "Nazareness" of NazNet. A growing assumption that everyone is Nazarene. But we aren't. It's for "friends of the Nazarene Church too" :-)

Sure! And though I am a Nazarene, I'm well aware I probably wouldn't fit in quite a few Nazarene churches. And I'm still a non-North American. But I usually step over these issues quite stubbornly :basic05

[Barbara Moulton]

But I usually step over these issues quite stubbornly :basic05

Yeah...I'd noticed :-)

[Glenda Harvey]

Barbara,

Actually as a non-Nazarene you may be a perfect person to answer the question. I am mainly wanting to know how people perceive the Nazarene Church as liberal or conservative. Technically I'm not Nazarene anymore either. I attend a non-denominational church. The nearest Nazarene Church to me is about a 45 minute drive.

[Barbara Moulton]

Barbara,

Actually as a non-Nazarene you may be a perfect person to answer the question. I am mainly wanting to know how people perceive the Nazarene Church as liberal or conservative. Technically I'm not Nazarene anymore either. I attend a non-denominational church. The nearest Nazarene Church to me is about a 45 minute drive.

Well, my transition was this...

Age: 0 - 35 Salvation Army
Agest 36 - 40 Church of the Nazarene
Age 40 -47 Wesleyan

Sooooo...I would say that I perceived the C of N as more liberal when I was in The Salvation Army and now that I am a Wesleyan I perceive it as more Conservative.

But you have to overlay that with the fact that I am not an American. It took me awhile, when I first joined NazNet to get used to the differences I observed. I'm still getting used to it.

[Ryan Scott]

See, that's interesting because from the Wesleyans I know, I would have assumed the Church of the Nazarene was more liberal. Honestly, from the Salvation Army(ers?) I know I'd consider Nazarenes are far more conservative. I guess it just depends who you know.

[Jacob Griffin]

***OFF-TOPIC ALERT***
Those wishing to stay focused on the thread please skip!!

Barbara,
I hate to reveal yet another layer of ignorance, but is the Salvation Army a church where you live? Here it is a thrift store where you can buy old records and mismatched lamps with a seperate halfway house for our overcrowded jail system. They may, but I've never heard of them having church services there. Fill me in, please. Just e-mail me if you've explained it before.

[Glenda Harvey]

I'm sure Barbara will answer this also, but the Salvation Army is a Church denomination. They have homeless shelters and soup kitchens as well as the thrift stores to both help low income families buy good clothing at reasonable rates and to help support their various ministries. They do hold Church services, usually in a building that is next to or near a Salvation Army shelter.

[Barbara Moulton]

***OFF-TOPIC ALERT***
Those wishing to stay focused on the thread please skip!!

Barbara,
I hate to reveal yet another layer of ignorance, but is the Salvation Army a church where you live? Here it is a thrift store where you can buy old records and mismatched lamps with a seperate halfway house for our overcrowded jail system. They may, but I've never heard of them having church services there. Fill me in, please. Just e-mail me if you've explained it before.

The Salvation Army is a Christian denomination with...yes...many, many churches in over 100 countries. And that's true where you live too. You just might not see it. But if you looked in the phone book you could probably easily find a worship service in a Salvation Army Corps (church)

It was the Church I attended up until 13 years ago. I was saved, sanctified, ordained and married in The Salvation Army.

Its worship services are not that much different from Nazarene Services.

When we came to the Church of the Nazarene we were considered ministers from a sister denomination and our credentials were transferred accordingly (after we took a course and exam on Nazarene history, polity etc.)

Having said all that, The Salvation Army's founders (William & Catherine Booth) did not really intend to start a denomination. Coming out of the Methodist church, their mission was to reach those who the other churches weren't reaching. The Salvation Army has always done a tremendous amount of compassionate/social work from its early days as "The Christian Mission". But their converts weren't welcome in the established churches so worship services began and eventually a denomination was formed.

But it never has lost sight of its mission roots and consequently, its social work sometimes overshadows its role as a Christian church.

When I was a Salvationist that never bothered me. I said I would rather be part of a church that was known for all for its compassionate ministry with the hope that people would then ask "why do you do this?" then to be part of a church that didn't reach out and have people ask "why aren't you doing this?"

http://www1.salvationarmy.org/ihq/www_sa.nsf/vw-dynamic-index/5F180AE9ED2270FE80256D4B0044DBA2?openDocument

[Barbara Moulton]

They do hold Church services, usually in a building that is next to or near a Salvation Army shelter.


The Army in the States tends to merge its church/social work more than they do in Canada.

The Corps (Church) I attended as a teen was a congregation of over 400 with many middle and upper class people.

Other than the uniforms and band music...there really wasn't that much difference from other churches of that size. No soup kitchen or shelter attached.

[Ryan Scott]

How did you deal with the different views of the sacraments when you became a Nazarene?

[Barbara Moulton]

How did you deal with the different views of the sacraments when you became a Nazarene?

Short answer? Started taking (and serving) communion and got baptized.

Longer answer? I saw sufficient evidence of God's blessing upon The Salvation Army to convince me that the sacraments were not essential to one's salvation or spiritual growth.

Having said that, The Salvation Army doesn't teach that the sacraments are wrong. They just don't practice them (for a number of reasons)

So it wasn't an issue for me. When I became part of a church that did observe the sacraments I gladly began to observe them. And I appreciated the sense of unity it brought to me...unity with the rest of the body of Christ.

[Jacob Griffin]

Thank you, Barbara and Glenda!

[Scott Daniels]

I think a distinction needs to be made between ethics, politics, and theology.

Obviously we have been on the conservative end ethically (life-style questions).

We are certainly conservative politically in the US. The numbers may have changed since the late 80s early 90s, but I believe the stats at that time were 12 out of 13 Nazarenes were Republicans or political conservatives.

Without giving a lecture on theological method... for most of the last 100 years or so the only theological options seemed to be Liberalism or Fundamentalism. Some new options have come along, but when those were the only two options, Nazarenes were "none of the above." Because we aren't Fundamentalists we appear progressive theologically prior to some of the new possibilities, but we weren't theological liberals either. So in some ways because of things like the Wesleyan Quadrilateral we were in the middle theologically before that was cool.

I think some of our tensions over liberal/conservative labels come from the relationship we have formed with some fundamentalist traditions due to similar politics. In some ways we have picked up the theology of our political alliances by osmossis.

[Billy Cox]

There is a similar question. Does being a part of naznet encourage one to be liberal, or is it that liberal folk engage more in stuff like naznet?

I believe that dialog tends to moderate the extreme views on either end of the political or religious spectrum.

It would be similar to the way in which an idea floating around in my head makes perfect sense until I express it and realize that it isn't the better mousetrap after all.

[Glenda Harvey]

We are certainly conservative politically in the US. The numbers may have changed since the late 80s early 90s, but I believe the stats at that time were 12 out of 13 Nazarenes were Republicans or political conservatives.


When I was growing up in the Nazarene Church the majority of families in our congregation were democrats. Primarily because we were in a working class area. It wasn't until issues such as abortion & gay rights became political party issues that Evangelical Christians began switching to the Republican Party.

[Glenn Harris]

As I get older I'm shying away from the whole Conservative/Liberal debate because most of the people I've encountered here are neither (as society defines them). One thing that Naznet does is force people to articulate their beliefs, and as Billy stated, sometimes it shines a glaring light on them.

While I don't think Naznet has changed my views on much it has done two things for me that I don't get in my local church because people tend to associate with like spirits. It gives me a better understanding of how people I respect and view as intelligent, articulate people, can look at things so much different than I do and how that's not a bad thing.

It's given me a better understanding of the difference between being dogmatic and being inflexible.

[Virginia Stimer]

This may say something about my age, but when I was a child growing up in another denomination the label I heard for Nazarenes was "Worldly". I mean after all, their women used makeup and wore jewelery! It was while I was at Greenville College that I began to realize that some of the "rules" I saw in my church and others were based on the economic level of the majority of the people in a congregation but somehow became standards of behavior.

It was also in college that I saw the difference between those who were busy with judgemental attitudes and those who were busy witnessing for Christ. Yes, some did both at the same time, but being a judge did have an effect on the witness.:eek:

And then the Lord led me to the Church of the Nazarene and I love the church and the people in it. I still don't use makeup and wear little jewelery, but to be honest that is partially an economic decision for me. Today if a relative gave me some jewelery I would thank them and wear it rather than tell them I could not wear it as I did at graduation from nursing school.

Serving overeseas as a missionary also broadens our outlook. Maybe that is why I am so comfortable with the people on NazNet. You all are great people!:fav18

I did my midwifery training in a Salvation Army hospital in Australia. They did have church services but also as part of the hospital there was a home for unwed mothers.

If you read "Reflecting God" (formerly "Come Ye Apart") you will note that every quarter some of the authors are from the Salvation Army.

Virginia

[Anne and Dwayne Hood]

Sister Stimer, when and where I grew up, Nazarenes did not usually wear make up and jewelry, go to movies, drink alcohol, or smoke, or wear short hair, shorts, slacks or go mixed bathing. They believed in living a Spirit filled life, also. We had some true saints then, that I will never forget. These people were my Sunday School teachers, but they did not teach me about the above mentioned things. They taught us from the Bible. Mother taught the things mentioned above. I don't believe in compromising at all, but I do believe in being flexible. I do some of these things now, but respected my mother and her beliefs enough to not do things around her that would hurt her.

[Greg Farra]

This may say something about my age, but when I was a child growing up in another denomination the label I heard for Nazarenes was "Worldly". I mean after all, their women used makeup and wore jewelery! It was while I was at Greenville College that I began to realize that some of the "rules" I saw in my church and others were based on the economic level of the majority of the people in a congregation but somehow became standards of behavior.

It was also in college that I saw the difference between those who were busy with judgemental attitudes and those who were busy witnessing for Christ. Yes, some did both at the same time, but being a judge did have an effect on the witness.:eek:

And then the Lord led me to the Church of the Nazarene and I love the church and the people in it. I still don't use makeup and wear little jewelery, but to be honest that is partially an economic decision for me. Today if a relative gave me some jewelery I would thank them and wear it rather than tell them I could not wear it as I did at graduation from nursing school.

Serving overeseas as a missionary also broadens our outlook. Maybe that is why I am so comfortable with the people on NazNet. You all are great people!:fav18

I did my midwifery training in a Salvation Army hospital in Australia. They did have church services but also as part of the hospital there was a home for unwed mothers.

If you read "Reflecting God" (formerly "Come Ye Apart") you will note that every quarter some of the authors are from the Salvation Army.

Virginia

I've been a Nazarene for a couple of years, and a NazNetter a few months, and I agree: I have found the people to be fabulous!:fav18

[Greg Farra]

And I don't wear make-up and just a little jewelry as well!

[Glenda Harvey]

I grew up in the 60's in Southern California, at our Nazarene Church most women wore jewlery and make up but there were still some who didn't. Women started wearing pants to church (not jeans) around the mid to late 70's. When my mom was growing up in the Nazarene Church women didn't wear makeup or jewlery. My Uncle who was a Nazarene Pastor did not wear a wedding band.

[Jim Franklin]

Neither of my parents who were both ordained Nazarene elders ever wore jewelry of any kind particularly wedding bands even though my dad as a boy had seen Dr. Bresee wearing a wedding band. I received a wedding ring when I was wed in 1962 and when I joined the BNC faculty I was told that if I had arrived a couple of years earlier I would have been asked to remove it. Once mother put on some of my dad's old trousers to pick blackberries at the Northwest Indiana Campground and she threatened my sister and me within an inch of our lives never to tell her mother that she had done so. Of course, movie attendance and dancing and all that other worldly entertainment and modernism were strictly out and to this day I have never been to the show. Modernism and the old line churches that allowed such things were considered worldly and never to be considered Christian. When I heard that some of these practices were being accepted by those worldly California Nazarenes I was appalled. It was a shock to my system the first time I saw a Nazarene woman with lipstick and jewelry.

[Hal Paul]

My mother told me a story about a minor scandal she created in the late '50s when she blotted her lipstick on a bulletin at her church in Oregon.

After my father-in-law graduated from NBC in the early '80s, he sent resumes out to several districts. A couple of DSs from 'I' states in the Midwest wrote back and asked him if he wore a wedding ring, and if so, they wanted to know if he would be willing to take it off. When he wrote back that yes he wore a wedding ring, and no he wouldn't take it off because it was a symbol of a promise he made before God and man to my mother-in-law, the DSs wrote back and told him to look for a church elsewhere because he was too liberal to be accepted by congregations in their districts.

I also recall when I was a student at NNU in the mid 1980's a fellow student commented that several ladies at his home church, not Nazarene, were holding prayer vigils for him because he chose to attend "that liberal school."

I still can't figure out why some considered it wrong for my dad to take me to see Disney's Fantasia in the theater when I was about 5 years old, but it was alright for me to see it on the TV in my house when Disney broadcast it a few years later.:fav03

[Glenda Harvey]

I still can't figure out why some considered it wrong for my dad to take me to see Disney's Fantasia in the theater when I was about 5 years old, but it was alright for me to see it on the TV in my house when Disney broadcast it a few years later.:fav03

I think that was the thinking that finally made movies acceptable to most Nazarenes. Especially once vcr's became common in most homes. When my brother was pastoring a Church in Michigan in the mid to late 90's he said that there were still people in his Church that did not think Christians should attend movies. He did not attend movies while he was at the Church. Movies weren't important enough to him to upset people over.