Feel good religion without concern lacks relevance in real world

[Ron Davis]

The writer of this column contribute regularly to the Springfield MO News-Leader under the heading "From the Left". He has never seemed that far left to me and his is one of the few columns I read regularly. This particular column prompted me to order the book and I will post a review when I have finished reading.

http://www.news-leader.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070815/OPINIONS05/708150310/1006/OPINIONS

The morning I read this column I stopped reading after that column. It definitely struck a chord with me and if possible will participate in his discussion group. Does anyone share his feelings. Dr. Ray was Senior Pastor of a large Disciples of Christ church before taking a sabbatical.

[Ian Gentles]

The writer of this column contribute regularly to the Springfield MO News-Leader under the heading "From the Left". He has never seemed that far left to me and his is one of the few columns I read regularly. This particular column prompted me to order the book and I will post a review when I have finished reading.

http://www.news-leader.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070815/OPINIONS05/708150310/1006/OPINIONS

The morning I read this column I stopped reading after that column. It definitely struck a chord with me and if possible will participate in his discussion group. Does anyone share his feelings. Dr. Ray was Senior Pastor of a large Disciples of Christ church before taking a sabbatical.

Church does seem very irelivent in these modern times is my view, how to change that is another question? We seem to avoid the issues that concern people most, health, poverty, war, etc

[Ian Gentles]

Maybe some churches shy away from politicaly, possibly, controversial issues?

[Greg Farra]

While I agree with Dr. Ray somewhat, I think his lack of concern for the great commission is evident. The church is the only organization on Earth that is mandated to preach the gospel of Christ. Peter's first sermon was not on social concern, or saving a whale, but repent! I don't mind the church being involved in helping people, especially the poor. We run a food pantry at our church, and do other things to alleviate poverty. But our primary mission is to bring the good news to the unsaved, and make disciples. If some liberal theologians would have been in charge in the first century, the gospel would have died out in Jerusalem.

[Ryan Scott]

I'm sick and tired of everyone pushing "the great commission" as if it were the most important thing in the Bible. Someone decided to call it the great commission; it's not like it was written with that title. Jesus spoke about loving our neighbors and loving our enemies. Love is by far the greatest commission in the gospels.

I'm not saying we don't need to make disciples, but if discipleship becomes an end in itself rather than a reaction to people asking questions about our profound love, we're in a lot of trouble. I believe the Church has gotten to where it is in the US because we've spent so much time focused on adding converts and growing our attendance.

I didn't see anything in that article I disagreed with, in fact he seems to have well articulated the feeling of an increasingly large number of people (including the Board of the National Association of Evangelicals). I think it also illustrates the divide between a modern and post-modern mindset.

Frankly, I think adopting love as our primary directive will result in smaller churches and less members, but a whole lot more disciples of Christ.

[Stan Self]

Wow Ryan! You seem to have a real burr under your saddle when it comes to the great commission. I guess my question is, how can you love God with all your heart, soul, and mind and your neighbor as yourself, yet withhold from the very One from which that love emanates? Not everyone in the world has had the good fortune, as you, to be born in a family where father and grandfather were Nazarene pastors—where this love was part and parcel of daily life. How do you suppose they are to experience that love (that they have never seen nor heard) if someone doesn’t go to them.

You also seem to divorce love from the great commission. Do you honestly think that missionaries would give up the relative comforts of family, friends, and lifestyle for what is often a very difficult life if they weren’t motivated by love?

[Ian Gentles]

I beleive both are included, we need to win souls but also shoe mercy

[Anne and Dwayne Hood]

Ryan, I understand what you are saying about smaller churches, but more disciples of Christ. That is OK. Larger churches often have cell groups, or operate through SS classes to reach out to those in need--many times it leds to a soul or souls being saved. I like it that way in a small church. There is nothing to be depised about a small church--is there--as long as souls are being loved and led to the Lord?

[Ian Gentles]

I still think churches miss the plot, we had nothing after London bombings, why? It was if they hadnt happened

[Ryan Scott]

Wow Ryan! You seem to have a real burr under your saddle when it comes to the great commission. I guess my question is, how can you love God with all your heart, soul, and mind and your neighbor as yourself, yet withhold from the very One from which that love emanates? Not everyone in the world has had the good fortune, as you, to be born in a family where father and grandfather were Nazarene pastors—where this love was part and parcel of daily life. How do you suppose they are to experience that love (that they have never seen nor heard) if someone doesn’t go to them.

You also seem to divorce love from the great commission. Do you honestly think that missionaries would give up the relative comforts of family, friends, and lifestyle for what is often a very difficult life if they weren’t motivated by love?


I just think too many people divorce love from disciple-making. Taking Jesus to them becomes telling them about Jesus rather than bringing the love of Christ to them.

I mentioned it on another thread, but it seems so many people use the "great commission" to justify making love into a means to an end (turning people into Christians). I just think we need to renew the idea that love comes first and that love is enough.

Too many people enter into relationships and in the back of their head think "if I love this person enough, they might let me tell them about Jesus." This seems very wrong to me. We need to love people and if we're really loving them, they're going to be drawn to us and perhaps ask why we love like we do. Then, of course, tell them.

In principle, I guess, there's not a huge difference, especially in our Wesleyan and Nazarene traditions. The problem is that the primary directive becomes "get people saved" rather than "love people." I think that's an important distinction. Not that you can't do both, but one has to be primary and it should be love.

[Glenda Harvey]

When the mainstream Churches began to see their mission as primarily a social gospel and abandoned evangelism, the evangelical Churches began seperating themselves from the mainstream Churches by placing the emphasis on evangelism and saving the lost. They began to ignore the commandment to feed the hungry, and help the poor. We are to do both, not one at the expense of the other.

[Greg Farra]

Well, love is demonstrated by our actions. I know it's not titled 'the great commission', but yet it was commanded by the Lord to His disciples. If you've got a problem with that, take it up with Him. I am one of those people who didn't grow up in the church. Thank God there were people who believed in loving me and leading me to the Lord.:fav18

[Anne and Dwayne Hood]

It doesn't seem that Christian began neglecting needs. Some churches may have not had the means to help, but people from way back have helped one another--notjust Christians, so many needs were not neglected.
We moved out here in 1989. Once, on New Years Day I heard a lot of loud thumps in our back yard. I looked out, and a quite elderly man with his great grandsons were making a wood pile in our back yard. Why? Be cause we were neighbors, and he knew we had a fireplace in the den. In the summer we let his family, grown married children, grandchildren, great grandchildren, etc. use part of our lad so they could have a bigger garden. All of them did not live there. Then, they had a garden at one of the family's homes in Jackson, Tennessee. They shred without even asking if you had a need. they were Assembly of God people. I really don't fel that the church people lost the vision of helping others. But, now, some churches have the means to help in bigger ways. Mr. Miller was really the patrioch of that fmily, like life use to be, and still is in some places.

[Ryan Scott]

We are to do both, not one at the expense of the other.

I didn't say otherwise, I just think we have to remember what is primary.

[Glenda Harvey]

Ryan,

Love is primary, but love includes evangelism as well as feeding the hungry or doing for others. They go hand in hand. One is not more important than the other.

[Ryan Scott]

Love is evangelism. There is no gospel but love.

[Billy Cox]

I have sometimes wondered what the Church did with Matthew 28:19-20 prior to the 19th century.

Is it significant that none of the other New Testament authors even make mention of the Great Commission? It seems like Jesus' last words to his disciples would have been part of the oral tradition even when the earliest books were written.

[Ian Gentles]

We can be loveless evangelists, we can get to the point that we are only doing a job. My bosses, who are being very good to me, though totaly involved in evangelism, have never once sat down with me and asked what is happening in my life, depression etc! I find no one seems to be interested in this very evangelistic movement :(

[Greg Farra]

I have sometimes wondered what the Church did with Matthew 28:19-20 prior to the 19th century.

Is it significant that none of the other New Testament authors even make mention of the Great Commission? It seems like Jesus' last words to his disciples would have been part of the oral tradition even when the earliest books were written.


How about Luke 24:45-49; Acts 11:8; john 19:21;Romans 1:1-7? Not exactly the Great Commission, but certainly the Lord sending out His messengers. And I left out Mark 16:15-18, because I don't want anyone thinking they have to handle snakes or drink poison!;);

[Ian Gentles]

I think we loose out by not addressing issues in real world. Has anyone preached on the war topic? Oh i beleive we should be in Iraq and Afganistan!

[Hans Deventer]

Has anyone preached on the war topic?

No, I don't believe Christians are allowed to commit suicide (which is what preaching about the war comes down to :basic04)

[Ian Gentles]

No, I don't believe Christians are allowed to commit suicide (which is what preaching about the war comes down to :basic04)


You confuse me wasnt talking about suicide?

[Hans Deventer]

You confuse me wasnt talking about suicide?

I'm sorry, bad joke. I mean, you get killed if you preach about the war. The views are a little too hot on this topic.

[Glenda Harvey]

When evangelism becomes about numbers and how many people we have brought to Christ it ceases to be love. When we have a missional approach, we love people, we tell them about Christ, and we feed them, but we don't make feeding them conditional on their salvation. The critisizm I often hear about Christian organizations is that they only care about saving people spiritually not physically. If you have a program in your Church that helps people and only one person out of hundreds that you help is saved, then you have follow Christ's command. Heaven is going to rejoice over the one soul saved. In the western world we are too used to seeing success in numbers. We have to remember the story of the 99 sheep. When you have programs that feed people there will always be those who come for the food and only pretend to listen to the message. We are still doing God's work when we love those people. We are still fullfilling the great commission.

[Ryan Scott]

If you have a program in your Church that helps people and only one person out of hundreds that you help is saved, then you have follow Christ's command.


I'm not sure you even need one. Although I've never seen an unabashedly loving faith community fail to grow. You're right on; the only question we should ask is are we following what we believe we're called to do with the most sincerity and effort?

[Marsha Lynn]

I enjoyed the article, but I couldn't really identify with it. The author seems to see being spurred toward and enabled in a quest (in his case one for world peace and social justice) as the only reason to go to church. Does it take a crowd to reach out to the oppressed? Why does he need someone telling him to go do it? (Yes, I know about community, but sometimes we find ourselves traveling alone on the road to Jericho and simply need to take it upon ourselves to do something about the half-dead man by the side of the road.)

Here is why I go to church (http://marshalyn.blogspot.com/2005/11/why-i-go-to-church.html). Being preached at on any subject (evangelism, morality, pacifism, or poverty) doesn't make my list. There is no lack of available literature to spur me on to higher goals in those areas; I don't have to hear it at the church.

The author's opinion that the church is saying the wrong things simply says to me that we should view it as a place in need of our influence and not shy away from associating ourselves with it. It appears to me that his beef is less with the weakness of the church itself but with his own weakness in being unable to whip the church into the shape he envisions for it. In my opinion, he needs to have greater confidence in God's ability to use him to improve the church and exercise some patience with the slow timetable involved in such improvements. I don't understand what good he's going to do standing outside the church doors stirring up dissatisfaction among those going in and out of those doors. Will the world be a better place after he talks people into leaving the church and settling for internet discussion groups for their spiritual nurture?

Marsha

[Ian Gentles]

I'm sorry, bad joke. I mean, you get killed if you preach about the war. The views are a little too hot on this topic.


Got ya Hans lol

[Ryan Scott]

The author seems to see being spurred toward and enabled in a quest (in his case one for world peace and social justice) as the only reason to go to church.


I think he may have "secularized" his language since he is writing in the paper. Whether that was right or wrong, I don't know, but I see the worship service as the place I go to be refreshed and reminded that we are to help usher in the kingdom of God- world peace and social justice are the hallmarks of that quest.

[Ian Gentles]

He seems sound enough to me, does love exist?

[Ron Davis]

I enjoyed the article, but I couldn't really identify with it. The author seems to see being spurred toward and enabled in a quest (in his case one for world peace and social justice) as the only reason to go to church. Does it take a crowd to reach out to the oppressed? Why does he need someone telling him to go do it? (Yes, I know about community, but sometimes we find ourselves traveling alone on the road to Jericho and simply need to take it upon ourselves to do something about the half-dead man by the side of the road.)

Here is why I go to church (http://marshalyn.blogspot.com/2005/11/why-i-go-to-church.html). Being preached at on any subject (evangelism, morality, pacifism, or poverty) doesn't make my list. There is no lack of available literature to spur me on to higher goals in those areas; I don't have to hear it at the church.

The author's opinion that the church is saying the wrong things simply says to me that we should view it as a place in need of our influence and not shy away from associating ourselves with it. It appears to me that his beef is less with the weakness of the church itself but with his own weakness in being unable to whip the church into the shape he envisions for it. In my opinion, he needs to have greater confidence in God's ability to use him to improve the church and exercise some patience with the slow timetable involved in such improvements. I don't understand what good he's going to do standing outside the church doors stirring up dissatisfaction among those going in and out of those doors. Will the world be a better place after he talks people into leaving the church and settling for internet discussion groups for their spiritual nurture?

Marsha

As I read through these posts I find that I am at an advantage with the article since I am a regular reader of his writings. I don't believe he is advocating leaving the church.

I am curious to know what role you believe preaching has in the church. Do I understand correctly that you have no interest in the sermon?

Dr. Ray has traveled extensively speaking on behalf of the poor. He has also traveled to Nicaragua and Honduras on mission trips.

To me his complaint is not in too much focus on the message of salvation but that we focus too much on the wrong things that are not connected to the salvation message. To quote the article he says,

"And yet it seems that when we go to church, the message of advocacy for liberation and justice gets turned into a message that tels people to not be gay, to favor the rich, to support inexcusable war and to build big buildings with basketball gymnasiums."

He continues by saying that when people get frustrated with church and stay away we decide that the most important things we can do is change our style of music.

My complaint in all this is that we spend most of our resources on the Sunday morning gathering and have little left for ministry in the community. The encouraging thing for me is that the Church of the Nazarene is a leader in compassionate ministry. We have a definite priority when it comes to poverty so I do believe we are better than what Dr. Ray suggests. It would just be good if more local congregations bought into the idea.

[Ian Gentles]

I do think christianity is too church service based!!

[Glenda Harvey]

I'm not sure you even need one. Although I've never seen an unabashedly loving faith community fail to grow. You're right on; the only question we should ask is are we following what we believe we're called to do with the most sincerity and effort?

I have heard of missionaries who never saw a single soul saved but after they have left the seeds they planted take root and the next missionary who comes along does see souls saved. If our only purpose is to see how many we can lead to Christ we may end up discouraged and abandoning the calling that God has placed on us.

[Ron Davis]

and settling for internet discussion groups for their spiritual nurture?

Marsha

The discussion group he refers to is not an internet group. It will be meeting at a local church.

[Billy Cox]

So there are different flavors of the Great Commission in the in the Gospels and the Acts prologue, but it was apparently not very important in the teachings found in the remainder of the New Testament.

As far as Biblical themes go, the command to make disciples is hardly the most important.

[Marsha Lynn]

I am curious to know what role you believe preaching has in the church. Do I understand correctly that you have no interest in the sermon?

...

"And yet it seems that when we go to church, the message of advocacy for liberation and justice gets turned into a message that tells people to not be gay, to favor the rich, to support inexcusable war and to build big buildings with basketball gymnasiums."

He continues by saying that when people get frustrated with church and stay away we decide that the most important things we can do is change our style of music.

Well, let's say that I attend a church that fits this pattern. Since I live in a rural area of the Bible belt, there aren't a lot of options. I can go a few blocks down the street and find another church presenting the same message. And there's another one in the next block. These churches have different denominational names on their signs but they're not going to vary a lot in terms of how they respond to society's problems. Diversity is not one of the major features of rural communities. There's not a church within 50 miles that measures up to his expectations. My choices are 1) drive miles to attend church in another community which is tackling social issues the way I think they should be tackled (but probably not making any difference in my own community); 2) pull up stakes and move to that other community, leaving this one to its own devices; 3) embrace a congregation in my neighborhood; or 4) disengage myself from organized religion.

Suppose, for the reasons I have already given, I take option 3. I am then consistently exposed to attitudes in the church that set my teeth on edge. Every week I sit and listen to a Bible-based sermon presented by a good and loving pastor who studies diligently and presents the truth as best he understands it. He fits well with the community and is well-liked. The church is a positive organization in the community.

Do I "have no interest in the sermon"? No, I am not without interest, but it seldom touches me where I'm living. It doesn't matter. Hearing the sermon is not my primary motivation for being there. I have plenty of words from other sources which God uses to teach me the truths He has for me. I could listen to a dozen excellent sermons on the internet any day of the week. I come to church to encounter God and His people. This is where they gather. This is one of the premiere places in town where God is working. Perhaps most of them 'don't get it' most of the time. Why would that make me leave? Is my faith only adequate to enable me to love and fellowship with people who think exactly like I do? Can I only minister to my world if I can do so as part of a team? Even if that is true, isn't the church the best place to start to find such a team? Where else would I go? Is there a chance that the church IS one of my places of ministry? Would walking away from it and, say, joining the Peace Corps make me a more positive force in my world? (I might end up doing more good for someplace like Nigeria, but is there a chance that THIS is where God has called me to serve?)

I am part of the church because I choose to embrace a local spiritual community. Sometimes what that community tells me is good and true and important and I need to hear it. Other times I hear words that make me want to step outside the doors and scream in frustration. But I don't walk away simply because there aren't enough people who see things the way I see them. Sometimes one just needs to stick around and be a body part that looks different but still joins in with the rest to support the Head.

Why do we see it as a good thing when a missionary goes to an area where there's not a single ray of light and ministers alone in the darkness but as just too lonely and frustrating to stay in a place where there are shadows blocking part of the light?

Marsha

[Hans Deventer]

I am part of the church because I choose to embrace a local spiritual community. Sometimes what that community tells me is good and true and important and I need to hear it. Other times I hear words that make me want to step outside the doors and scream in frustration. But I don't walk away simply because there aren't enough people who see things the way I see them. Sometimes one just needs to stick around and be a body part that looks different but still joins in with the rest to support the Head.

I've wanted to write this before but this really evoked the reaction I've been wanting to give. I respect your decision immensely, Marsha. I don't know if I would have been able to remain alive in your situation. In fact I doubt it. And I really understand so much better by your descriptions why Andy fled.
Again, my huge respect.

[Marsha Lynn]

So there are different flavors of the Great Commission in the in the Gospels and the Acts prologue, but it was apparently not very important in the teachings found in the remainder of the New Testament.

As far as Biblical themes go, the command to make disciples is hardly the most important.

Billy, I am in sympathy with your points, but feel compelled to point out that none of Jesus' teachings get a lot of press time in the rest of the New Testament. There are amazingly few direct quotes. Paul holds himself up as a pattern for Christian living and bases few of his instructions on Jesus' teachings. The fact that the "Great Commission" is omitted has less significance than one would think when you realize how many other teachings of Christ are never repeated again.

Marsha

[Ron Davis]

I am part of the church because I choose to embrace a local spiritual community. Sometimes what that community tells me is good and true and important and I need to hear it. Other times I hear words that make me want to step outside the doors and scream in frustration. But I don't walk away simply because there aren't enough people who see things the way I see them. Sometimes one just needs to stick around and be a body part that looks different but still joins in with the rest to support the Head.
Marsha

I believe we are at the same place here. I too have chosen to stay put in spite of the shortcomings. After all the church is the only institution that God has ordained to continue his work. The points made in the article are worth discussing though and I find it rare to find someone willing to address how and why we do the things we do.

Some questions I have been pondering:

1. Why do we spend most of our resources on the Sunday morning services?


2. Why do we build big buildings in order to house larger crowds instead of starting a second congregation.

3. Why do we need a gymnasium when there are other better facilities in town that are available to rent for far less than the mortgage payment on a gym.

4. Why are we not more engaged with our community?

5. Do we favor the rich?


Enough for now.

[Bob Evans]

In light of all this I am privledged to work in an organization whose primary mission is to show acts of love in order to create an atnosphere where the gospel can be shared both individually and corporately.

Now everyone has that privledge of employment but many see our mission as an outlet for involvement with the poor and needy.

When I was in pr I got to speak at alot of churches with wealth and gymnasiums. Many responded to the challange to come and help us. And many have started ministries of this kind as a result of exposure to our mission.

I think its the spiritual leaders job to lead the way in word and deed to this kind of ministry.

The author of the article is right in his call but I am quite sure that the entire body of Christ is not missing the point.

[Ian Gentles]

We always favour the rich

[Marsha Lynn]

I've wanted to write this before but this really evoked the reaction I've been wanting to give. I respect your decision immensely, Marsha. I don't know if I would have been able to remain alive in your situation. In fact I doubt it. And I really understand so much better by your descriptions why Andy fled.
Again, my huge respect.

Hans, you confuse me.

The article said, in essence, "This is what the church is like in America and I'm not sure I can be part of it."

Ron read the article, saw truth in it, and posted a link here.

Others read the article and agreed with the assessment of the American church. You even joked that preaching against war would be to commit career suicide for a pastor.

Yet, when I agree that the church fits the description and explain why I stay anyway, you respond as though I'm the only one around who has stuck it out in a church that fits that description. And I feel like I'm betraying my beloved church family in admitting that they bear some resemblance to the profile given in the article. It's as though it's only on the most conservative districts in the denomination that one encounters such mindsets.

You're not the first to respond this way and it puzzles me. When I mention sermons that set my teeth on edge, I certainly don't focus on my own pastors (past or present). Evangelists that travel all across the denomination are probably the ones I've heard say the most offensive things over the years. And I've heard plenty of 'truths' from General Superintendents that fit the description given in the article. Even at M7 last spring, I heard some of the same old stuff that makes me wonder if there wouldn't be a better fit for me somewhere else. It's not like people around here are making this stuff up. They're repeating what they themselves have been taught in other times and places.

A few years ago, there was a scandal in Washington, D.C. that, according to one writer, shocked even the media. He wrote an article addressing the question of why the general public wasn't more shocked than it was. His conclusion was that the news that comes out of D.C. is so consistently negative, that only those who live there realized that this particular happening truly was as shocking as previous scandals had only become at the hands of the press. The general public was so used to hearing and repeating hyperbole about how terrible the morals and ethics are in government that they didn't notice when truly terrible morals and ethics exhibited themselves.

Is that what's happening here? When this writer described the church as objectionable beyond endurance and people here agreed, was everyone dealing with hyperbole while realizing that the church isn't truly that objectionable on a widespread basis? Do you think that I am the only one that lives and ministers in that type of setting?

Although I stay where I am, I do have exposure to the church beyond my local setting. I hear many sermons from people other than my own pastor. It appears to me that my situation is far from unique other than not having a lot of church-hopping options that will allow me to seek out a church with a more acceptable worldview and still have potential to minister to my own community. My daughter moved almost 1,000 miles away and the only difference I perceive is that when she couldn't take it any more in the Church of the Nazarene, she had more diverse alternatives. In fact, some of the things she encountered in her new church home would have inspired me to reevaluate my options. (And I'm not sure I could endure her current church choice either.)

I really don't think my situation is substantially different than what is found in many other situations and I apologize if I have come across as a martyr. I love my church family and community and am currently more aware of being loved than ever before. It's not like I'm out in the wilds suffering for Jesus all alone.

:basic01

Marsha

[Marsha Lynn]

1. Why do we spend most of our resources on the Sunday morning services?

We: I'm not sure "we" do. The money counter who just brought me yesterday's offering report didn't show up until afternoon because he and the other counter removed the old AC units from the fellowship hall this morning and cleaned up in preparation for new units. Meanwhile, the ladies are making apple dumplings for a fund raiser in a couple of weeks. None of those people spent a lot of resources on the Sunday morning service. They're very busy with these other projects.

Me: Because I'm very much involved in the music program right now and want the music to be a blessing to those who come, I invest substantial time on it. However, that's only one of my responsibilities and doesn't get the majority of my time. I need to get the numbers off of that counter's report into the church bookkeeping system.

My answer: I can't answer the why because, as a whole, "we" don't.

2. Why do we build big buildings in order to house larger crowds instead of starting a second congregation.

"We" don't. We don't have larger crowds. (Is this maybe related to the answer the first question?)

3. Why do we need a gymnasium when there are other better facilities in town that are available to rent for far less than the mortgage payment on a gym.

Actually, one of 'our' inspirations to build a gym would be to fill a need in the community. Our local elementary school was torn down a few years ago and the school district is short on gyms.

4. Why are we not more engaged with our community?

We: Since I don't follow everyone in the church around all week, I'm not sure that we are not engaged with the community. As a church, we tend to do our own thing but the fact that Head Start rents our fellowship hall and we distribute groceries once a month means that we have a steady stream of people coming onto our property. I suspect that other "we's" around here could come up with more examples of community engagement.

Me: I am the director of the public library, the prime spot in town for free internet access, videos, and books. I regularly interact personally with 40 or 50 people a week there from all economic levels. How engaged is "more engaged"?

5. Do we favor the rich?

We: Uhmm... "we" are not the rich and we tend to see things from our own perspective. No, I don't think so.

Me: Wealth is not the main characteristic that tempts me to favor some people over others, but I could replace 'rich' with other words and make this a valid question. I try hard to see all of the people around me as having equal value and potential but sometimes it's a struggle.

Enough for now.

Ron, I know you asked the questions in general and probably want responses from the perspective of church leaders, however, I can only answer them in particular from the point of a church member. And I can only change the answers in particular. I can't change the big "we". But I can change the answers for "Me". And it still seems to me like that's the place to start. I'm not trying to boast of my own community engagement and concern for the poor. My point is that there's more value in hanging out with the particular young hoodlums who gather at the public library or brainstorming about ways to bless a particular set of Head Start people than in discussing whether anyone is adequately ministering to the faceless young hoodlums of faceless communities and what relationship the church should have with nonspecific government programs.

I suspect that people get tired of how I make general "we" questions specific, but I think that's the only way to get real answers. Until you find a specific congregation building a gym rather than renting the one down the street, you'll never come up with a concrete answer as to the 'why' of that decision. All you'll have is speculations.

Marsha

[Ryan Scott]

5. Do we favor the rich?

We: Uhmm... "we" are not the rich and we tend to see things from our own perspective. No, I don't think so.

Me: Wealth is not the main characteristic that tempts me to favor some people over others, but I could replace 'rich' with other words and make this a valid question. I try hard to see all of the people around me as having equal value and potential but sometimes it's a struggle.


I think the point of Jesus' teaching was to help us understand that we are all rich. I think the point of the question here was to help us remember that we can all do better when it comes to favoring the 'other.'

[Ron Davis]

1. Why do we spend most of our resources on the Sunday morning services?

We: I'm not sure "we" do. The money counter who just brought me yesterday's offering report didn't show up until afternoon because he and the other counter removed the old AC units from the fellowship hall this morning and cleaned up in preparation for new units. Meanwhile, the ladies are making apple dumplings for a fund raiser in a couple of weeks. None of those people spent a lot of resources on the Sunday morning service. They're very busy with these other projects.

Me: Because I'm very much involved in the music program right now and want the music to be a blessing to those who come, I invest substantial time on it. However, that's only one of my responsibilities and doesn't get the majority of my time. I need to get the numbers off of that counter's report into the church bookkeeping system.

My answer: I can't answer the why because, as a whole, "we" don't.

2. Why do we build big buildings in order to house larger crowds instead of starting a second congregation.

"We" don't. We don't have larger crowds. (Is this maybe related to the answer the first question?)

3. Why do we need a gymnasium when there are other better facilities in town that are available to rent for far less than the mortgage payment on a gym.

Actually, one of 'our' inspirations to build a gym would be to fill a need in the community. Our local elementary school was torn down a few years ago and the school district is short on gyms.



I suspect that people get tired of how I make general "we" questions specific, but I think that's the only way to get real answers. Until you find a specific congregation building a gym rather than renting the one down the street, you'll never come up with a concrete answer as to the 'why' of that decision. All you'll have is speculations.

Marsha

The first thing I noticed is that I asked too many questions to be manageable. Any persons viewpoint on this topic is going to depend largely on their local setting. In the past I have been envious of another church on the district that was in a rural setting, had their own gym and could attract large crowds of teenagers simply by opening the doors and inviting them in. My setting is in a more metropolitan albeit a small one and I have to compete with the many attractions of the surrounding area. Certainly the circumstances are very different for a church located in a rural community where the school is lacking facilities. My community has an abundance of gyms and a community recreation center than runs a full schedule of activities for all ages.

I do want to respond to your reply about spending most of our resources on the Sunday morning service. If you consider the pastor's salary and the percentage of the time he spends preparing for Sunday morning, add the cost of the part of the building that is used primarily for Sunday morning worship, then factor in the utility cost and other staff cost related to Sunday morning I believe you will many times see that is over half of the budget. In smaller churches the pastor's salary is usually a significant part of the annual budget. In addition for most of the membership Sunday morning is the largest block of time they spend involved with the church.

I really don't believe you are a martyr in your decisions. I also don't think you are all that much at odds with Dr. Ray's view point. Where you differ is in the response to it. He has only very recently began his sabbatical. Based on what he has written I really don't believe he has any intention of abandoning the church. His last e-mail to me indicated that over 70 people have responded with an interest in the discussion group. it will be interesting to see how many show up.

[Ron Davis]

I think the point of Jesus' teaching was to help us understand that we are all rich. I think the point of the question here was to help us remember that we can all do better when it comes to favoring the 'other.'

Rich is almost always a relative term. I'm not really sure it's not always a relative term.

[Marsha Lynn]

I think the point of Jesus' teaching was to help us understand that we are all rich. I think the point of the question here was to help us remember that we can all do better when it comes to favoring the 'other.'

But theology has to be local. In my local setting, if you swept up the entire congregation into the "we the rich" category, you would pick up quite a few who would technically fall into "they the poor" to whom the church should be ministering. And those people are actually very interested in helping others who are in even greater (or more acute) need. Because they are part of our church family, we are doing more for others under their leadership than we have ever done before. One way to avoid favoring the rich is to tap into the generous hearts so common among the needy and allow them to lead the church into a greater spirit of generosity.

I simply can't understand what value comes from consistently judging ourselves as inadequate in every measure of spirituality. We don't pray enough, we don't give enough, we don't witness enough, we don't care enough, we aren't community-minded enough. It doesn't matter how much any one person or group does, it is still dismissed as inadequate. I can seldom resist challenging such judgments. But I do need to step away from this exchange and let it go on without me.

I'll add another question first:

If we are saved by grace, how do we determine a minimum requirement for pleasing God in our living?

Marsha

[Ron Davis]

I'll add another question first:

If we are saved by grace, how do we determine a minimum requirement for pleasing God in our living?

Marsha

I once preached a sermon along these lines. The way I put it was if we are saved by grace why do we act like we are saved by works? My feeling is that the issue at hand is how we respond to the grace that has saved us. There is no minimum requirement. Each person is only able to respond by the grace of God given to them. Even as I write this I wonder if my statement about there being no minimum requirement is really true.

One of the problems a local congregation will have in addressing an issue like poverty is where to start. What can a local congregation really do in response to poverty. Such an overwhelming problem can convince us that we can do nothing.

I have realized over the past few years that I can't even begin to participate in a resolution for all the problems of the world. As a result I have begun to focus on one life at a time. For some the entirety of their efforts for God may be caring for a sick relative. Driving ourselves to exhaustion trying to serve God isn't the answer.

When I look at our congregation I seriously doubt anyone is being lazy. Sometimes we work too hard to accomplish something with little value. For a while I would get involved in everything I was asked to do. I became over committed and discovered I was neglecting my primary duties as youth pastor. I chose to refocus on the youth and not it let be my problem everytime we wanted to try something that we didn't have the people to do.

More than anything else I believe Dr. Ray's article is a call to reexamine our priorities and place our resources according to those resources.

I hope you stick around this conversation. I haven't meant to sound judgmental but am really interested in your feelings on the topic. There is not much to be learned from people that totally agree with me.

[Marsha Lynn]

I do want to respond to your reply about spending most of our resources on the Sunday morning service. If you consider the pastor's salary and the percentage of the time he spends preparing for Sunday morning, add the cost of the part of the building that is used primarily for Sunday morning worship, then factor in the utility cost and other staff cost related to Sunday morning I believe you will many times see that is over half of the budget. In smaller churches the pastor's salary is usually a significant part of the annual budget. In addition for most of the membership Sunday morning is the largest block of time they spend involved with the church.

OK, I'm back.

A couple of observations:

1. You seem to measure the resources of the church in terms of money. When you mention human resources, you only include those purchased with church money. I reject the idea that the primary resource of the church of Jesus Christ is money. I believe that the commodity of the kingdom of heaven revolves around people and relationships and the primary resource of the church is the people.

2. If what you say is true where you are, your situation is very different from mine. I watch people pour much time and energy into the church that has nothing to do with the Sunday AM service. I mentioned earlier the two ushers/money-counters who were slow counting this morning because they were removing AC units from the property in preparation for new ones. And the ladies who were making apple dumplings. "We" (which doesn't actually include "me") are also providing food for a member who has had several setbacks after major surgery. We have people teaching Sunday School and children's church and leading the teens and doing Bible quizzing and mowing the yard (as often as it needs it for a minimal set fee each week) and beautifying the landscape. We were given a $10 certificate to NPH last Saturday for having over 10% of our average attendance give up a Saturday morning for "Team Day" (SS convention which has evolved to include NMI and NYI) Several of those in attendance are usually involved in food distribution on the third Saturday morning of the month but others stepped into the gaps they left.

Yes, my pastor invests much time on his sermon, but I don't know how he manages to get it done. People know that he is consistently in his office at the church and never seems to mind a knock on the door. I drive past the church on almost every trip to town and there are often vehicles other than his in the drive. As someone who works in an office open to the public, I know how difficult it is to accomplish anything between interruptions.

From my perspective, I think it would be hard to measure how much time and energy that has nothing to do with the Sunday AM service is invested in a typical church. There are funeral dinners and Sunday School parties and canoe trips to plan and windows to wash. And how do you count visits to the nursing home by church people? Do they need to be on staff and have a set purpose for their visits to count as an investment of the church's resources?

Recently, a group of people have discovered that when church people get together, they can turn their time and energy into money. As a result, in the past two months, well over $5,000 has been contributed to a pastor's wife with local roots who had a stroke while between health insurance plans. Another $2,000 has been set aside for other purposes. This has allowed people who don't have cash resources for supporting the work of the kingdom to contribute in other ways. Does it count for anything if it isn't part of the budget and traces back to time contributions rather than monetary gifts?

I'm certainly not setting this up as an example of how things oughtta be. Maybe we need to focus more on Sunday around here. I'm just saying that when you ask, "Why do we spend most of our resources on the Sunday morning services?" you're either talking about a very different setting or overlooking a lot of time and energy that is being invested in ways that are easily overlooked. I can't answer your "why" question for "us" because I can't accept the premise behind the question. As to why other churches focus so much on the Sunday morning service, my only guess is that they must see the facilitation of a God-encounter as a very important part of what they have to offer the local community. And perhaps it is.

Marsha

[Ron Davis]

I do believe you are in a different setting than mine. What you describe sounds very much like the United Methodist church that I grew up in.

For various reasons I have been a member of several churches in Mississippi, Arkansas and Missouri. Only two of those churches in any way resemble your setting. In my setting there is little activity at the church other than service times and there is little interaction among the members outside of those service times.

That is probably why my definition of resources tended to be related to money. In reality the greatest resource of the church is the people and the relationships they build. What I am seeing in my setting is that those relationships aren't happening.

[Billy Cox]

Billy, I am in sympathy with your points, but feel compelled to point out that none of Jesus' teachings get a lot of press time in the rest of the New Testament. There are amazingly few direct quotes. Paul holds himself up as a pattern for Christian living and bases few of his instructions on Jesus' teachings. The fact that the "Great Commission" is omitted has less significance than one would think when you realize how many other teachings of Christ are never repeated again.

Marsha

Notwithstanding the silence regarding Jesus' teachings in the rest of the New Testament, the drive to evangelize the world is practically nonexistent in the New Testament outside of the few proof-texts already mentioned.

Paul seems to spend nearly all of his letters urging his followers toward right-living and Christlikeness. Not even once does Paul urge them to canvass their cul de sac for converts. :basic01

[Wilson L. Deaton]

Much of the discussion above has been drawn along lines of social action versus evangelism.

I don't get that from the article. I think the article is actually about what evangelism means.


Is it getting people "converted," adding them to church role so we have more in worship, can afford to build bigger buildings for our holy huddles, and wield more political influence? Is it all about heaven and hell?
Or, is it about building the Kingdom of God and working to bring about God's will on earth as it is in heaven? Is it about the present Kingdom as well as the future kingdom?

As I understand the author, he is suggesting that American churches are too focused on number one, while he favors number two.

Based on my interpretation, I have to say I agree with him.

Wilson

[Hans Deventer]

Hans, you confuse me.

My apologies. My intention was to write something positive. I failed. I'm sorry.

[Ron Davis]

Much of the discussion above has been drawn along lines of social action versus evangelism.

I don't get that from the article. I think the article is actually about what evangelism means.

Is it getting people "converted," adding them to church role so we have more in worship, can afford to build bigger buildings for our holy huddles, and wield more political influence? Is it all about heaven and hell?
Or, is it about building the Kingdom of God and working to bring about God's will on earth as it is in heaven? Is it about the present Kingdom as well as the future kingdom?As I understand the author, he is suggesting that American churches are too focused on number one, while he favors number two.

Based on my interpretation, I have to say I agree with him.

Wilson

Thank you for saying it better than I have.

[Marsha Lynn]

In my setting there is little activity at the church other than service times and there is little interaction among the members outside of those service times.

So could that be the answer to your question? The reason most of the monetary investment of the church goes toward the Sunday AM worship service is because that's when the people are there.

If you look at the difference between your situation and mine, it isn't that we spend our money on other things. The cost to use a building seven days a week is not significantly greater than to use it one morning a week. Our paid staff (aka pastor) has no more resources for weekday ministries than yours. The difference is that a few key laypeople have caught (and spread) a vision to invest themselves in various projects.

Personally, I'm still not convinced that one model is inherently superior to the other. If a church can create a meaningful weekly encounter with the Almighty and that is their primary offering to the community in which they live, I'm not sure how that is a bad thing. Won't that regular exposure to the heart of God eventually translate into compassionate living during the week?

However, I can tell you how the other model develops: One or two people begin to say, "We need more times of fellowship in order to draw in those who won't come into the church for a worship service." And they take a leadership role in making it happen. It doesn't take a line in the budget or a board resolution. It does take a willingness on the part of the official leadership to allow people to pursue the things about which they are passionate and to support them in that pursuit.

Marsha

[Marsha Lynn]

My apologies. My intention was to write something positive. I failed. I'm sorry.

I too apologize. Thank you for your positive words. They warmed my heart. It's just that I wasn't sure they were deserved, and accepting unmerited praise as though it were merited can be a dangerous thing.

Marsha

[Ryan Scott]

Thanks for bringing it back to focus, Wilson. I believe that social action is evangelism; I was more reacting to the idea that there is some difference there. I'm not anyone on this thread believes there is, however it is a common belief that perpetuating the Church is more important than living out love. I believe that was the issue that spurred the article in the first place.

As to your second point. I'd say the present Kingdom is the future Kingdom; Christ began the work that is not yet finished. It's the already-not yet dichotomy. The Kingdom of God is already here, but not yet in its fullness.

[Hans Deventer]

It's just that I wasn't sure they were deserved

:basic01 Let's put it this way, I think they were, but we'll leave the ultimate decision up to God, OK?

[Ryan Scott]

Let's put it this way, I think they were, but we'll leave the ultimate decision up to God, OK?


I don't even know what you're referring to here, but I can sure say "thanks" to that sentiment.

[Marsha Lynn]

... it is a common belief that perpetuating the Church is more important than living out love. I believe that was the issue that spurred the article in the first place.

This has been my observation, also, although I can't imagine anyone standing up and actually making such a statement. It's more of a default position from unstated logic which says:

1. The church is the primary conveyor of God's love.

2. If the church dies, there will be no one left to spread the good news of God's love.

3. Thus, we must keep the church alive in order to minister God's love to our community.

Goals that keep the church alive are much easier to formulate and measure than goals of love. We can measure and see if the church has increased numerically. How many new people do we have? How many SS classes? What is the attendance and membership? In contrast, love cannot be measured. How many people experienced God's love in our community this week? Who knows? Do friendly smiles count or must one offer concrete aid to needy people in order to demonstrate God's love to them? Are the smiles perhaps of greater value because they convey the message that the person has been seen and his or her value as a person acknowledged whereas the groceries they've been handed might treat them simply as a ministry project as a contribution to our own sense of value?

It strikes me that even this article's protest continues the quest to find something measurable. How can one tell whether the church is sharing God's love? Count how many times the pastor calls us to social responsibility versus how many times he says words of encouragement. Count how many people refuse to attend the church because of its irrelevance to their lives.

I'm thinking that the advancement of the kingdom cannot be measured in any human terms. But how can we hold people accountable and point out how far they are from hitting the mark if we have no mark to aim at?

There's much to think about here. I'm wondering if every attempt to quantify the advancement of God's kingdom introduces danger that we will value the wrong thing simply because there is no yardstick that will truly measure the right thing.

Marsha

[Ian Gentles]

I still think we are missing out while granting all you say. Here i feel we hide in our church buildings and do little, and when we do evangelism do we have a real love for the lost?
Also i think we need to deal with issues that are been talked about. I know a guy who read the Times Newspaper and talked on curent issues raise, to great affect! In enangelism always read the mornings newspaper cause its from the news folks will make comments!

[Wilson L. Deaton]

.... In enangelism always read the mornings newspaper cause its from the news folks will make comments!

John Wesley White was one of the handful of preachers that worked with Billy Graham organization serving as a preacher for Graham-administered, Graham-style crusades.

White was known for daily reading the local paper of whatever city he was in and using stories from it for all his illustrations. We had him for a crusade in a city I used to live in and can vouch for the truth of this reputation.

Wilson

[Ian Gentles]

Yes news is what folks focus on, use it to evangelistic oppertunity

[Ryan Scott]

How can one tell whether the church is sharing God's love? Count how many times the pastor calls us to social responsibility versus how many times he says words of encouragement. Count how many people refuse to attend the church because of its irrelevance to their lives.


Perhaps counting how many times the Pastor challenges the congregation to personal growth and to fight complacency, versus how many times the Pastor rails against the "evils of the world" while affirming the position and lifestyle of the people in the seats? The old "we're fine; they need to get better," message.

[Ron Davis]

Personally, I'm still not convinced that one model is inherently superior to the other. If a church can create a meaningful weekly encounter with the Almighty and that is their primary offering to the community in which they live, I'm not sure how that is a bad thing. Won't that regular exposure to the heart of God eventually translate into compassionate living during the week?
Marsha

You are right. If our Sunday morning services are leading to an encounter with the divine that encounter will translate into compassionate living which is what Dr. Ray is looking for. Another term that goes along with this may be sacrificial living. Growing up in a rural area I saw sacrificial living. I don't see that anymore. I don't even claim that for myself even though I believe it is what we are called to. My favorite passage to preach from is John 13 where Jesus washes the feet of the disciples. It is an example I wish I could live up to.

The more you expand on your thoughts the more I feel our only point of difference is our interpretation of Dr. Ray's article.

[Ian Gentles]

Yes we dont wash feet anymore

[Greg Farra]

Notwithstanding the silence regarding Jesus' teachings in the rest of the New Testament, the drive to evangelize the world is practically nonexistent in the New Testament outside of the few proof-texts already mentioned.

Paul seems to spend nearly all of his letters urging his followers toward right-living and Christlikeness. Not even once does Paul urge them to canvass their cul de sac for converts. :basic01


You mean the scriptures that I cited weren't good enough for you? Gee, what more do you want? I'm sure I could find some of Paul's writings that allude to sharing our faith with others. Is this not important? We have the greatest thing that ever was. Should we hide it under a bushel? The church needs to get off of it's blessed assets and give itself to the world. We have a food pantry in our church, we do community events for free to share God's love in our little 'cul-de-sac'. Love to me is a verb.

[Greg Gates]

I think I disagree with the columnist saying that we don't advocate for the poor. Every sermon I preach attempts to inspire people to do better.

Do you think he was suggesting that more welfare is the answer?

[Stan Self]

I think what Jesus told us to do (Matt. 28:18-20, Mark 16:15, Luke 24:47, John 20:21, and Acts 1:8) Paul demonstrated throughout the book of Acts. The first commissioning of missionaries is recorded in Acts 13:1-3, and in verse 4 the journeys begin and have continued until now.

Billy indicated not much happened with the Great Commission between Matthew 28:18 and the 19th century. Ethiopia was in its tenth Christian generation before the first Anglo-Saxon convert, Egypt had the gospels in Coptic language by AD 300, Christianity was in sub-Saharan Africa before Columbus discovered America, all indications are that Thomas took the gospel to India, Christianity arrived in China in the seventh century, Irish missionary Kilian was martyred in what is now Germany in 689, and I could go on. In fact if you want to see a really long list, go to the Southern Nazarene University site at http://home.snu.edu/~HCULBERT/line.htm.

The fact is, God is a missionary God and the church has been called to be a missionary community.

[Marsha Lynn]

The more you expand on your thoughts the more I feel our only point of difference is our interpretation of Dr. Ray's article.

You're probably right. My big hang-up here is with the negative connotations brought in by the phrase "feel good religion without concern," as though any Christian who feels good (experiences joy) must be overlooking the needs of those around him.

Can one have "feel good religion" with concern? I'm quite all right with the idea of adding concern so long as we don't embrace "feel bad religion" where one is constantly being reminded of how far we fall short of God's expectations for us and how likely we are to find ourselves turned away at the final judgment.

Robert Webber wrote: "I have longed to hear the words 'Christ has overcome all the powers of evil. Be at peace.' But this message, the very central proclamation of the faith, is frequently missing."

Would that message fall into the category of "feel good religion"? Is there something wrong with being reminded that "God's on his throne and all's right with the world" as we pursue the life of discipleship?

One can always find fault with God's people. How rare grace is even in the inner sanctuary.

Marsha

[Anne and Dwayne Hood]

Ian, I have never been in a feet washing service, but I have had my feet washed out of love for me and the Lord. He has helped me realize the real meaning of feet washing, or whatever we do in His name for others--even things that we would ordinarily shrink from. Picture being incapacitated for weeks and months more than once in your life--with people doing the very menial things that we would shrink from doing for others, and having them do for us. I have been there. On young lady would give up her Friday nights with with her single and married friends, to spend it with me. She thought nothing of sitting at the foot of the bed, washing my feet, and rubbing lotion on them--for a long time, as she sweetly talked with me, or sung to me. She would insist on washing the bath tub, cook, etc.for there was no way I could do such things.
I could not bathe myself, or keep dry skin cleaned off my legs. Someone would do that for me, and so many other things. I will never forget these people. Once, a helper in the hospital washed my hair. One day, another lady came and washed it and put curlers in it for me. I could not brush or comb it. All of these things, God helped me realize that were like being willing to wash a person's feet if need be. Are we willing?

[Ron Davis]

I think I disagree with the columnist saying that we don't advocate for the poor. Every sermon I preach attempts to inspire people to do better.

Do you think he was suggesting that more welfare is the answer?

I think it would be a mistake to dismiss what he says just because we can find exceptions. He is speaking of the majority of churches. Dr. Ray is an exception himself. He has spent a great deal of time advocating for the poor. In fact the Church of the Nazarene as a denomination I believe does a fair job of advocating for the poor through NCM.

[Ian Gentles]

I think it would be a mistake to dismiss what he says just because we can find exceptions. He is speaking of the majority of churches. Dr. Ray is an exception himself. He has spent a great deal of time advocating for the poor. In fact the Church of the Nazarene as a denomination I believe does a fair job of advocating for the poor through NCM.

Yes the denominations does much for the poor. We need to advocate for the poor, many evangelical churches here are big city churches (Middle class) or are in leafy suburbs, i dont see them doing much for the poor!

[Billy Cox]

You mean the scriptures that I cited weren't good enough for you? Gee, what more do you want? I'm sure I could find some of Paul's writings that allude to sharing our faith with others. Is this not important? We have the greatest thing that ever was. Should we hide it under a bushel? The church needs to get off of it's blessed assets and give itself to the world. We have a food pantry in our church, we do community events for free to share God's love in our little 'cul-de-sac'. Love to me is a verb.

You should not take my post as an argument for doing nothing. All that I am saying is that it is possible to be so consumed with winning converts that we have nothing compelling to which they should convert. It's like building a sales force and never selling the product.

[Marsha Lynn]

You mean the scriptures that I cited weren't good enough for you? Gee, what more do you want?

I see only one reference from the NT epistles (Romans 1:1-7) Did I miss the rest?

There are two totally separate questions here:

1. As Christians, should we share our faith?

2. Is sharing our faith the prime directive of the New Testament?

Let's look at the Romans reference:

RO 1:1 Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God-- 2 the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures 3 regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, 4 and who through the Spirit* of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God* by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord. 5 Through him and for his name's sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith. 6 And you also are among those who are called to belong to Jesus Christ.

RO 1:7 To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints:

Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.


Paul was called to be an apostle. Paul was set apart for the gospel. Paul and his companions (we) "received grace and apostleship to call people ... to obedience ..."

Those he addressed (you) were among those called to belong to Jesus Christ and to be saints. There is nothing about "you" being called to spread the good news about Jesus Christ.

As far as I can see, that's the pattern through all of the epistles except when Paul was writing to his "preacher boys" Timothy and Titus. Do you have examples where ordinary believers are called to be evangelists?

Based on what I encounter in scripture, I have to say that the answer to question #2 above is "no". A list of all of the instructions given to ordinary followers of Jesus Christ would contain very few, if any, instructions directly related to evangelism. However, declining to share the source of our hope with hopeless people around us would certainly be less than loving toward our neighbor. So the answer to the first question has to be some form of "yes" simply based on the law of love.

Love is the primary directive of the NT, not evangelism.

One of my favorite passages in the Bible is 1 Thess 4:11-12. 1TH 4:11 Make it your ambition to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business and to work with your hands, just as we told you, 12 so that your daily life may win the respect of outsiders and so that you will not be dependent on anybody.

I don't recall hearing one sermon in 40 years on these verses (but there's a possibility that I may have forgotten a few sermon outlines over the years). They fit well with all of Paul's teachings to the gentile Christians, but not nearly so well with the evangelistic messages typically preached to today's followers of Jesus Christ.

Marsha

[Barbara Moulton]

Yes we dont wash feet anymore

One of the most beautiful things I have ever seen was a Salvation Army officer on her knees before a filthy street person, taking off his dirt encrusted shoes and washing his blistered, sore and foul smelling feet.

If I could be half the servant she was then I would feel blessed.

[Greg Farra]

I see only one reference from the NT epistles (Romans 1:1-7) Did I miss the rest?

There are two totally separate questions here:

1. As Christians, should we share our faith?

2. Is sharing our faith the prime directive of the New Testament?

Let's look at the Romans reference:

RO 1:1 Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God-- 2 the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures 3 regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, 4 and who through the Spirit* of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God* by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord. 5 Through him and for his name's sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith. 6 And you also are among those who are called to belong to Jesus Christ.

RO 1:7 To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints:

Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.


Paul was called to be an apostle. Paul was set apart for the gospel. Paul and his companions (we) "received grace and apostleship to call people ... to obedience ..."

Those he addressed (you) were among those called to belong to Jesus Christ and to be saints. There is nothing about "you" being called to spread the good news about Jesus Christ.

As far as I can see, that's the pattern through all of the epistles except when Paul was writing to his "preacher boys" Timothy and Titus. Do you have examples where ordinary believers are called to be evangelists?

Based on what I encounter in scripture, I have to say that the answer to question #2 above is "no". A list of all of the instructions given to ordinary followers of Jesus Christ would contain very few, if any, instructions directly related to evangelism. However, declining to share the source of our hope with hopeless people around us would certainly be less than loving toward our neighbor. So the answer to the first question has to be some form of "yes" simply based on the law of love.

Love is the primary directive of the NT, not evangelism.

One of my favorite passages in the Bible is 1 Thess 4:11-12. 1TH 4:11 Make it your ambition to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business and to work with your hands, just as we told you, 12 so that your daily life may win the respect of outsiders and so that you will not be dependent on anybody.

I don't recall hearing one sermon in 40 years on these verses (but there's a possibility that I may have forgotten a few sermon outlines over the years). They fit well with all of Paul's teachings to the gentile Christians, but not nearly so well with the evangelistic messages typically preached to today's followers of Jesus Christ.

Marsha

Marsha,

There are a few quotations here and there, such as 2Corinthians 5:18-20.

There are many ways to 'preach' the gospel. The last COS class I took was on Declaring the Gospel of God. Our instructor brought in several different people, all of whom witnessesd and shared Christ with others in their own way. Their love for people and God motivated them. Again, I must say: love is a verb. Love is manifested by our actions. Show your faith by your good works, James says. Peter says to be ready to give everyone an answer for the hope within you. And God's love alone could not save us. He demonstrated His love that He died for us.

BTW, some of the 'proof texts' I used are also quoted in the Manual, pg. 40,
under the the general rules. I think I stand in good company.:fav18

The best example I've read of is John 1:40-42.

[Marsha Lynn]

Marsha,

There are a few quotations here and there, such as 2Corinthians 5:18-20.

18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God.

Again, Paul talks about how the message of reconciliation was committed to "us" (Paul and his coworkers) and how "we" (Paul again) are ambassadors. He then calls "you" to be reconciled.

There is no question about Paul being called to preach the gospel. My point is that I have searched diligently to find where he pressed that same calling onto ordinary, everyday Christians and can't find it.

BTW, some of the 'proof texts' I used are also quoted in the Manual, pg. 40, under the the general rules. I think I stand in good company.:fav18

Yes, there's no question about that. After all, we're evangelicals. Yours is the 'correct' position. And, again, I'm not questioning the need to share our faith. But it seems that my motivation has to be love and concern for others rather than a clear biblical mandate repeated throughout the NT for all Christians everywhere to be evangelists.

Marsha

[Greg Farra]

How about a comment on the rest of my post while you're at it?

I don't know if we're that far apart.

BTW, the general rules also speak of how we are to live out:fav18 our faith. Lots of good stuff in 'em!

[Greg Farra]

Marsha,

BTW, my wife's name is the same as yours. Did she put you up to this?;)