God and suffering

[Hans Deventer]

I full well understand that neither the first nor the last words will be spoken here on this subject, but the other day, reading Isaiah 53, I wondered:

What does it mean that God came down to this earth to suffer in stead of taking all suffering away, which He could have done? What should that say to us? And why DID He heal people on a small scale, considering your answer to the first question?

[Ian Gentles]

To be honest in regards to first question i do not know!

In regaurds to second it seems unfair to heal a few only, g\uess this would lead to why we dont see more healing in answer to prayer but that would be deviating from you excellent questions.

[Martijn van Beveren]

I full well understand that neither the first nor the last words will be spoken here on this subject, but the other day, reading Isaiah 53, I wondered:

1. What does it mean that God came down to this earth to suffer in stead of taking all suffering away, which He could have done?
2. What should that say to us?
3. And why DID He heal people on a small scale, considering your answer to the first question?

Hans,

1. I think that people would only see JC as a santa clause only to give gifts, but it was His main intention to bring people in relationship with God. So, just yesterday we had a sermon on this subject, and NTscripture goes about Jesus entering Nazareth where he doesn't heal anyone. The crowd goes furious and wants to throw Him of the cliffs. That's for this moment one way reasoning.
2. We shouldn't rely too much on healing from suffering. There are many known cases where people get their hopes up high, and they fall... deep...
We should more focus on supporting the suffering, and if Healing happens, well, celebrate :basic05
3. see 1 :p


Marty

[Ian Gentles]

Hans,

1. I think that people would only see JC as a santa clause only to give gifts, but it was His main intention to bring people in relationship with God. So, just yesterday we had a sermon on this subject, and NTscripture goes about Jesus entering Nazareth where he doesn't heal anyone. The crowd goes furious and wants to throw Him of the cliffs. That's for this moment one way reasoning.
2. We shouldn't rely too much on healing from suffering. There are many known cases where people get their hopes up high, and they fall... deep...
We should more focus on supporting the suffering, and if Healing happens, well, celebrate :basic05
3. see 1 :p


Marty

Yes we need to support the suffering, probably much more than we do.

I have never seen Jesus as a sort of Santa, i just see so much suffering and wish we could seem more healing. Death i accept, but should many sufferings be so severe?

[Hans Deventer]

To be honest in regards to first question i do not know!

Well, I've been thinking on this one of course. The fact is that God could have ended the world as we know it, and all suffering included. We all believe of course that one day, this is exactly what He's going to do: there'll be a new earth and a new heaven, as even Isaiah 66:22 spoke about already.

But when Jesus came, "surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows". And He actually calls on us to do more or less the same: ""If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me" (Matt 16:24).

I, however, want a Lord who heals the sick. Who alleviates suffering. And I love to read about Him healing people and even raising the dead! But there is no denying, He came to suffer and calls on us to follow Him. But I, I pray for healing all day (or so it seems), for friends, relatives, people I know. And yet, most of what I see is suffering.

Could it be I've really got it wrong? That I should start to look differently at suffering?

[Ian Gentles]

Well, I've been thinking on this one of course. The fact is that God could have ended the world as we know it, and all suffering included. We all believe of course that one day, this is exactly what He's going to do: there'll be a new earth and a new heaven, as even Isaiah 66:22 spoke about already.

But when Jesus came, "surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows". And He actually calls on us to do more or less the same: ""If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me" (Matt 16:24).

I, however, want a Lord who heals the sick. Who alleviates suffering. And I love to read about Him healing people and even raising the dead! But there is no denying, He came to suffer and calls on us to follow Him. But I, I pray for healing all day (or so it seems), for friends, relatives, people I know. And yet, most of what I see is suffering.

Could it be I've really got it wrong? That I should start to look differently at suffering?

Yes in taking up our cross that includes others sufferings, we are to do all we can , in love for them.

I often wonder why the Good Lord delays in His sorting this mess of a world out?

I would like to see at lease the Lord alleviatting suffering more. If He dosent desire to heal a person in His will, why dosent He at least lessen the suffering?

[Ian Gentles]

Guess i am asking why God allowes so much suffering?
Had kidney stones, boy do those things have to hurt as much? That pain is a killer!
When son went through his suffering with Kidney disease it was awfull watching all those kids suffer so much, why? We had good christian friends on ward, in end their little boy died a long painfull death, couldent God have taken him without all that much suffering?

[Hans Deventer]

Guess i am asking why God allowes so much suffering?

Well, that is why I put the question, why did He take on that suffering Himself rather than stop it?

I think that an answer may be found a little easier if we go in that direction.

[Ian Gentles]

Well, that is why I put the question, why did He take on that suffering Himself rather than stop it?

I think that an answer may be found a little easier if we go in that direction.


Its a hard question, has it anything to do with spiritual warfare outside of our vision, good v evil? We often forget that dimension of things!

[Brian Blankenship]

Hans, your question reminds me of something I read Mother Teresa say. She said, when she gets to heaven, there was one thing she wanted to tell the Lord. You know what that is. YOU HAVE ALOT OF EXPLAINING TO DO!

[Hans Deventer]

Hans, your question reminds me of something I read Mother Teresa say. She said, when she gets to heaven, there was one thing she wanted to tell the Lord. You know what that is. YOU HAVE ALOT OF EXPLAINING TO DO!

The interesting thing about the story of Job, however, is that Job, in the end, didn't need those explanations anymore.

[Ian Gentles]

Job is very interesting regaurds suffering. Here is a man driven to extremes yet He dosent curse God, many of us would in his position if we are honest. He shows a faith that holds no matter what hits him. He shows no signs of clinical depression, he was one strong guy! No in end he didnt and i am sure we wont either!

[Dennis M. Scott]

It seems that the more we lean on Him while going through suffering, the less significant is our memory of it after the time of suffering. That, however, is only a personal thing: it doesn't do much when the suffering is being endured by someone else, especially someone close to us. We can't do the leaning on Him for someone else, as much as we might want.

I don't really have the answer that will ease the pain right now. It doesn't especially help to know that this is one of the greatest questions of all time, and that people a lot more spiritual than I have not only asked the question, but apparently this side not discovered the answer.

[Ian Gentles]

Yes it is the big question and hard to get to grips with. Suffering often seems like a lottery, ya get it or you dont, it seems soo impersonal. Why should we suffer and others dont?, no answer to that one!

[Ian Gentles]

Maybe a good question to ask is, why did suffering be part of the fall? Did it have to be a consequence? Why did God allow it? Why should we suffer because of anothers sin?

[Martijn van Beveren]

Yes we need to support the suffering, probably much more than we do.

Well, it depends... What I've seen here with a couple of people who are having a hard time is that ther comes a lot of warmth and love and encourgament from this community. Even when we don't agree with a person's oppinion. But yes, we can always do better :) That's the freedom of choice we've been given.


I have never seen Jesus as a sort of Santa...:cs01

Maybe Santa claus is a little overdone, but what I mean to say is that there are people who only see the gifts and expect them just to work on their authority and by this focus on the works forget the relationship. Not that a good relationship with God gives us the guarantee that we will be healed. Though sometimes I really wished it would be easier to heal people, though that might have some serious consequences for good and for worse.:fav03


i just see so much suffering and wish we could seem more healing. Death i accept, but should many sufferings be so severe?

I don't think that we'll be having an answer for that question, but I'm confident that God can do good even through difficult sittuations.

In His Loving grace,
MArty

[Martijn van Beveren]

Well, that is why I put the question, why did He take on that suffering Himself rather than stop it?

I think that an answer may be found a little easier if we go in that direction.

Can you elaborate on this?

[Ian Gentles]

Yes we have a good community here for support, I was thinking more about in general christian community.

[Martijn van Beveren]

Maybe a good question to ask is, why did suffering be part of the fall? Did it have to be a consequence? Why did God allow it? Why should we suffer because of anothers sin?

Ah, yes lets try and find the answers in the fall... I'm not sure that helps much since there is so much difference of interpretation about it.

Marty

[Martijn van Beveren]

Yes we have a good community here for support, I was thinking more about in general christian community.

True, we should be more loving to one-another. At least there are people who do, and in my church I see a lot of people supporting eachother. But I've got to go, talk to ya later...

[Ian Gentles]

Ah, yes lets try and find the answers in the fall... I'm not sure that helps much since there is so much difference of interpretation about it.

Marty

There sure is a lot of differing views. That suffering is a result of the fall i have no doubts, why it is is the question? Why did humane suffering in all its dimensions have to be? I know i come near to accusing God of being auther of suffering and this is not my intention. As Hans asked, why did God enter into suffering rather than just take it away which is well within His power? Its a great question our brother raised"

[Jeremy D. Scott]

As humans, we're pretty self-centered.

At the risk of being ridiculed as others have been before me for wondering things such as this, I wonder if God's coming to earth to suffer had more to do with God than it did with humanity.

This is yet another question that I think open theism at least begins to help me with.

[Ian Gentles]

I wonder also, but cant quite grasp my thoughts lol

[Ian Gentles]

Maybe God indeed needed too to show His great love for us? If He had just taken suffering away would that have helped us know His love? God is love so needed to show that love in entering our most fowl suffering world.

[Jeremy D. Scott]

Maybe God indeed needed too to show His great love for us? If He had just taken suffering away would that have helped us know His love? God is love so needed to show that love in entering our most fowl suffering world.

This is part of it for me. Seems like God had tried to eliminate suffering when he delivered his people from Egypt. But it didn't really end up with them living as they were created to live (they continued in rebellion, whining, etc.).

The exemplary theory of atonement that everyone must be sick of me talking about by now says that Christ's death on the cross was exemplary for us. On the cross we see the true nature of God (sacrificial love). And if this is God's true nature, what God looks like ("his image"), then we see on the cross who we are supposed to be, as we were created in his image.

[Ian Gentles]

This is part of it for me. Seems like God had tried to eliminate suffering when he delivered his people from Egypt. But it didn't really end up with them living as they were created to live (they continued in rebellion, whining, etc.).

The exemplary theory of atonement that everyone must be sick of me talking about by now says that Christ's death on the cross was exemplary for us. On the cross we see the true nature of God (sacrificial love). And if this is God's true nature, what God looks like ("his image"), then we see on the cross who we are supposed to be, as we were created in his image.


Yes we are to be like christ. Which raises another question how do we suffer for others?

[Tami Martin]

The scriptures tell us that there are things that have been revealed to us and those things belong to us. But there are things that have not yet been revealed to us and those things are God's. (Deut. 29:29)

Why would an all-powerful God allow sin to hold such sway in the world He created?

Why would an all-knowing God put us here when He knew we'd mess it up?

Why would an ever-present God hold back His power in any situation regarding one of His children?

What is His goal in all this?

God has made a way that we can live with as little suffering as possible, but it will never be eliminated. See what Jesus says in Matthew 11 (KJV):

28Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

His yoke is easy but it is still a yoke. His burden is light, but it is still a burden.

I think for me to understand this I just look at people. When we are wealthy and things are going well for us...do we seek God? Jesus said it would be easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle (even the Jerusalem gate rather than an actual needle) than for a rich man to enter heaven. Our sufferings draw us to Him. Our sufferings are the crucible in which we are made like Him. Through our sufferings we identify with Him. Why would we think that God would eliminate them? Why would we WANT Him to?

2Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. 4Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. (James 1:2-4)

[Hans Deventer]

Can you elaborate on this?

Yes. I think we all know that there is no answer to the question why God doesn't stop the suffering in this world. So I think that is really a dead end street.

What we do know, however, and what seems an equal riddle, is that God came down to share in our suffering. So, He could have stopped it, didn't, but instead, came down and lived among us, sharing our predicament, our joys, but most certainly, also our pains and suffering.

It makes you wonder if pain is the dreadful enemy we usually think it is, if for God, somehow, it was better to share it with us, than to stop it.

Anyway, I just think that this question may lead to more fruitful answers than the problem of pain as such.

[Hans Deventer]

Maybe God indeed needed too to show His great love for us? If He had just taken suffering away would that have helped us know His love? God is love so needed to show that love in entering our most fowl suffering world.

Yes, I think that would be part of the answer. Not sure if it would be the main reason, but I think it is at least a part of it. But there must be more, for it still sounds a bit strange to say, "I'll leave you in deep trouble and will join you there in order to show my love for you".

[Ian Gentles]

Agree we could eliminate more suffering than we do in this world God has given us the means but we squander them so others suffering is more acute. I guess taking on others sufferings means we have to suffer a bit ourself, in time, resources, given to the task.

[Hans Deventer]

And if this is God's true nature, what God looks like ("his image"), then we see on the cross who we are supposed to be, as we were created in his image.

Are we meant to suffer, Jeremy? This is a serious question!

[Ryan Scott]

I've been thinking a lot about this lately, although more on the physical suffering side. I know guilt caused a lot of Christians to get into the flagellation and inflicting physical pain and damage upon themselves. That seems both a bit too much and a horrible motivation.

Yet, I can't help but see the good of physical suffering. I never feel so simultaneously good and bad as when I finish a long hike or an intense workout. My body is screaming with pain and fatigue, yet it is still refreshing and life-giving. There is also the example of the late Pope John Paul II, who, at the end of his life, spoke and lived a message of suffering that I don't believe was motivated by guilt.

I'm not exactly sure what it is, but there is something in suffering that brings out normally un-experienced elements of life; through suffering we get a fuller picture of what life is.

I'm not sure exactly how that translates to emotional and mental suffering or actual illness. I'm still thinking through a lot of that stuff, but it seems there are more complex factors at work. I've seen some good and some hope and some growth in suffering with these friends this weekend and the loss of a baby, but at the same time, I wouldn't put that suffering on par with cancer or clinical depression.

[Ryan Scott]

Are we meant to suffer?


I think suffering is as much a part of life as joy. Perhaps, as we would, God wishes we would never suffer, but by making that so, God would deprive us of the fullness of life.

Imagine if a child grew up never suffering. Sure, they would be happy all the time, but they'd never know so much of life. Like I said in the previous post, I'm really trying to deal with the extremes of suffering and how that figures into this whole thing, but to me suffering is a valuable part of life, something I would not want to be without (although at the time, I might have a different perspective).

[Ian Gentles]

Suffering has its spiritual benifits without a doubt i forces us to see things in perspective and appreciate what is good, even if its a loving hand reaching out to us. It also inhances our prayer life, and maybe causes us to search scripture more? Question is, do we need suffering to be spiritual focused?

[Jeremy D. Scott]

Are we meant to suffer, Jeremy? This is a serious question!

No, we are meant to walk in communion with God (think back to the Garden). To be in communion is to be one with each other. The incarnation was God's reaching down to become one with us and at the same time, he showed us how to live (how to respond to suffering, but not just suffering, all evil, death, and destruction).

This doesn't really answer your question as to why God didn't just stop suffering. But at the same time, I wonder if it does. Love is a shared relationship. It can't be forced. I don't think it can be "created." It must be established between two parties. If God stopped suffering, would it make us love him more? (This too is a serious question.)

[Ian Gentles]

I doubt God stopping suffering would make us love Him more we are so selfish and self centered. I think our total unwillingness to learn from our sufferings shows our depravity. If God gave me a healing touch tommorrow i would probably get complaicent again sad to say

[Anne and Dwayne Hood]

Suffering is a big part of our life. Through suffering, I have reached the place I am today. Without it, how shallow would I be? But, there may be more to come. I shrink from it, but if that is God's will, I try to take it with a good spirit. The Bible has enough for us to see how suffering is good for us. What about the "fellowship of His sufferings" in Phil. 3: 10. Without my sufferings, how would I know what Christ has done for me--since I had never been out into what some speak of as "outbroken sin?"
Think about the refining in Malachi. Have you ever felt that you were in that old wash pot, sitting over the fire, and God was skimming the dross off, until it seemed nothing would be left of you? Maybe, that was His purpose--to get rid of our "You," or "self."

I have been in that pot often,and afterward thought I was so much better off spiritually than before. But, like Ian said--how soon did it wear off and I became complacent?
Lord, please, can't you see your reflection in me yet? I feel like the last time finally, really got through to me, more than any of the other times.

[Ian Gentles]

Are we meant to suffer, Jeremy? This is a serious question!

I certainly think some suffering is not meant. Got good friends in ministry, wife suffers from depression and is unable to do normal things so husband is full time carer to her and the children. I cant see how God could see a good ministry and family ruined this way?
I also have a big problem with children being allowed to suffer.
If God didnt mean suffering to be then why do we suffer?

[Roland Hearn]

Of course it was and is not God's desire for us to suffer. However, living in a world impacted by sin means suffering is a part of life. But that becomes the stage upon which grace displays its grandest performance. God's grace is not limited by our suffering. In fact there is a wonder in suffering.

Because we are born apart from God we go looking for all manner of circumstantial things in our lives upon which we can base our sense of worth and purpose. The truth of course is that none of those things is sufficient. It is in suffering that we discover how imperfect the things upon which we hang our self worth are. Sometimes we become angry at God. We are determined to find our worth there and we want Him to make it possible. However as suffering continues if we will allow His grace to work in us we learn to hold these things less and less tightly. Increasingly we are empowered to find ourselves in Him.

This is not the purpose of suffering. There is no purpose in suffering however, God has promised that all things work together for good to those that love Him. The good is not necessarily that our circumstances turn good. It is that our lives are empowered to become increasingly like Him. When we suffer we are lead by His grace to pray, "let me find myself in you." That is a prayer He can answer.

God's goal for our lives is that we become like Him. We should never waste our circumstances by struggling against what His grace can do in us. That is a lesson I am still learning.

[Martijn van Beveren]

Suffering is a big part of our life. Through suffering, I have reached the place I am today. Without it, how shallow would I be? But, there may be more to come. I shrink from it, but if that is God's will, I try to take it with a good spirit. The Bible has enough for us to see how suffering is good for us. What about the "fellowship of His sufferings" in Phil. 3: 10. Without my sufferings, how would I know what Christ has done for me--since I had never been out into what some speak of as "outbroken sin?"
Think about the refining in Malachi. Have you ever felt that you were in that old wash pot, sitting over the fire, and God was skimming the dross off, until it seemed nothing would be left of you? Maybe, that was His purpose--to get rid of our "You," or "self."

I have been in that pot often,and afterward thought I was so much better off spiritually than before. But, like Ian said--how soon did it wear off and I became complacent?
Lord, please, can't you see your reflection in me yet? I feel like the last time finally, really got through to me, more than any of the other times.

This is what you can call a revelation :)

So through suffering we become more spiritual mature. That's a thought I can really live with. It sharpens the mind. It makes us aware of what it is to be suffering and how it relates to others. So, it also will help us grow with compassion. Being more Christlike and being part of the kingdom...

Marty

[Ian Gentles]

This is what you can call a revelation :)

So through suffering we become more spiritual mature. That's a thought I can really live with. It sharpens the mind. It makes us aware of what it is to be suffering and how it relates to others. So, it also will help us grow with compassion. Being more Christlike and being part of the kingdom...

Marty

Suffering sure hasnt made me more mature lol I often find this argument lacking a little we seem to use it to sugar coat suffering a bit. Why does God need us to suffer to mature spiritualy?

[Hans Deventer]

Suffering sure hasnt made me more mature lol I often find this argument lacking a little we seem to use it to sugar coat suffering a bit. Why does God need us to suffer to mature spiritualy?

I think Roland's argument makes sense.

[Ian Gentles]

I dont disagree that suffering helps our spiritual development. I am just not sure God cant bring growth without it, or intended to use it for spiritual growth?

[Hans Deventer]

I dont disagree that suffering helps our spiritual development. I am just not sure God cant bring growth without it, or intended to use it for spiritual growth?

I think that has to do with us more than with God, Ian. I find the people that have everything, health, a good job, good income, good marriage, nice kids, no problems whatsoever, to be the least receptive for the gospel. They can easily believe in the lie that they can make it without God.

Pain, however, as C.S. Lewis wrote, is God's megaphone. He whispers in the beauty around us, but shouts in suffering.

[Brenda Jackson]

Jesus Himself, grew in wisdom through suffering.

Our hearts are so hardened that it takes a lot of suffering before we come to give up dependence on our our understanding and submit it to the Lord.

We have the choice however, the suffering can be sanctified to us or we can become more hardened. The secret is seeing God in the suffering and coming to the stage of thanking Him for all things in our lives.

[Ian Gentles]

I think that has to do with us more than with God, Ian. I find the people that have everything, health, a good job, good income, good marriage, nice kids, no problems whatsoever, to be the least receptive for the gospel. They can easily believe in the lie that they can make it without God.



Pain, however, as C.S. Lewis wrote, is God's megaphone. He whispers in the beauty around us, but shouts in suffering.

You raise good points, but does God need such a megaphone?

[Ian Gentles]

Jesus Himself, grew in wisdom through suffering.

Our hearts are so hardened that it takes a lot of suffering before we come to give up dependence on our our understanding and submit it to the Lord.

We have the choice however, the suffering can be sanctified to us or we can become more hardened. The secret is seeing God in the suffering and coming to the stage of thanking Him for all things in our lives.

Jesus suffered on the cross most certainly, but did he have physical or mental suffering at any other time?

[Brenda Jackson]

The scripture was not referring to His suffering on the cross. It was in His growing up. We know that He suffered rejection so that must have been part of it. Who knows if He suffered ill health? Ian don't you read the scriptures?

[Tami Martin]

I dont disagree that suffering helps our spiritual development. I am just not sure God cant bring growth without it, or intended to use it for spiritual growth?

From James 1:
2Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. 4Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. (NIV)

2-4Consider it a sheer gift, friends, when tests and challenges come at you from all sides. You know that under pressure, your faith-life is forced into the open and shows its true colors. So don't try to get out of anything prematurely. Let it do its work so you become mature and well-developed, not deficient in any way (The Message)

Those trials are what we suffer through. So those "sufferings" do indeed work to mature us.

[Tami Martin]

Jesus suffered on the cross most certainly, but did he have physical or mental suffering at any other time?

From Hebrews 2:
14Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death. 16For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham's descendants. 17For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for[f]the sins of the people. 18Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.


Jesus put on the form of a servent. We suffer. We can trust that He also lived a human life - though without the stain of sin - and that includes suffering.

[Ian Gentles]

I agree suffering and trials help our growth, but some, not here, seem to say we dont grow without suffering!

[Tami Martin]

"Some," Ian, will say anything.

[Ian Gentles]

From Hebrews 2:
14Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death. 16For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham's descendants. 17For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for[f]the sins of the people. 18Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.


Jesus put on the form of a servent. We suffer. We can trust that He also lived a human life - though without the stain of sin - and that includes suffering.

Yes, but as He was sinless surely He didnt suffer illnes which is caused by the fall, He never fell!

[Tami Martin]

Ian. He was human. Illness is not sin. Jesus probably had colds and a runny nose or any of the other childhood illnesses. He most likely suffered some indigestion or other digestive ailments that plague our species. He didn't have to sin to be sick.

[Brenda Jackson]

You have probably heard this, but picture the scene;

"Mom!!"

"Yes John?"

"Jesus stole my ------ and says he didn't!!"

"Now John, I told you that Jesus does not steal nor does he tell lies"

"Huh, you always side with him!!"

I am sure that Mary had more wisdom.

[Tami Martin]

I have really appreciated the different view on what sin is and what it is not.

What bothers me, I think, with the idea of living a sinless life is that it can look just like a non-sinless life to anyone who is watching.

People are going to see me being short with a cashier but not all who saw that will see me apologize (just to use a consistent example).

[Brenda Jackson]

Tami

In a sinless life, you would not be short with the cashier. You would not even feel annoyed.

[Ian Gentles]

Ian. He was human. Illness is not sin. Jesus probably had colds and a runny nose or any of the other childhood illnesses. He most likely suffered some indigestion or other digestive ailments that plague our species. He didn't have to sin to be sick.

But sickness is a result of the fall, He didnt fall?

[Hans Deventer]

You raise good points, but does God need such a megaphone?

Well, so it seems.

[Hans Deventer]

But sickness is a result of the fall, He didnt fall?

Ian, earthquakes happen as well. Due to the fall, the entire creation got off track. Jesus came to share our humanity. He didn't have to sin in order to experience that.

[Ian Gentles]

Hard one Hans, but cant see Jesus being ill as He was Gods perfect Son

[Hans Deventer]

Hard one Hans, but cant see Jesus being ill as He was Gods perfect Son

I can but discussing this with Jamie has taught me to steer clear of this issue. As I wrote before some time ago, the trouble with Christ is that non-Christians can't see Him as God, and the Christians can't see Him as man.

[Tami Martin]

the trouble with Christ is that non-Christians can't see Him as God, and the Christians can't see Him as man.


Very well said!!

[Ian Gentles]

LOL good point

[Anne and Dwayne Hood]

Illness is not sin as Tami said, but it is in this world because of sin-doesn't mean that we have sinned. That, too, goes back to the sharing in the Fellowship of His sufferings...and taking it in an humble sweet way.

[Dennis M. Scott]

Suffering happens. Temptation happens. Anguish happens. Make our own list. Jesus experienced them.

We experience pretty much the same kinds of things.

I think I want Him to walk with me when I face them, and I really do want to "do" them like He did. I'd prefer to not have to experience them, but I guess He even dealt with that, didn't He? ("Let this cup pass from me, nevertheless . . .")

He promised not only to be with us, but also send us the Comforter. He has from the beginning been wanting to be with us, fellowship with us, and share our suffering. It is us who have been going our own way, trying to do things on our own.

I think I want to experience His presence in the middle of all that comes my way.

[Ian Gentles]

Is suffering a punishment on the humane race because of what Adam did?

[Hans Deventer]

Is suffering a punishment on the humane race because of what Adam did?

Death is. Suffering, I think, is twofold: creation having gone wild because of the fall, and it is also the consequence of seeking to be king ourselves in stead of having God as king.

[Ian Gentles]

Death is. Suffering, I think, is twofold: creation having gone wild because of the fall, and it is also the consequence of seeking to be king ourselves in stead of having God as king.

It would seem, if we take scriptures account, that at first folks lived longer with less physical suffering. Was suffering there in the beginning or did it grow on us through time?

[Tami Martin]

We cannot assume that because the first accounts do not contain lots of descriptions of suffering, there was none.

[Ian Gentles]

We cannot assume that because the first accounts do not contain lots of descriptions of suffering, there was none.

I doubt if suffering did grow on us personaly but i still wonder why its here and what caused it?

[Hans Deventer]

It would seem, if we take scriptures account, that at first folks lived longer with less physical suffering. Was suffering there in the beginning or did it grow on us through time?

It was quite soon after the Fall, it seems. Imagine Adam and Eve finding out one son killed the other. That's suffering all right.

[Ian Gentles]

It was quite soon after the Fall, it seems. Imagine Adam and Eve finding out one son killed the other. That's suffering all right.

Very good point.

[Ian Gentles]

I still keep thinking of Hans origenal point why didnt God remove suffering? I know we have gone over the point a lot but it still sticks in my mind. Why would a God of love allow something so awfull as suffering? I think because we live with it we kinda take it for granted mabe over accepting its existanse in our minds. Also i guess we can be fearfull af questioning God, i sure am. God comming to earth solved the salvation problem but it sure didnt solve the suffering one, kinda like He left us in limbo in a way.
This leads me back to an old question of mine why dosent prayer help the suffering more?

[Tami Martin]

Well. If God solved the "salvation problem" but not the "suffering problem" it must follow that He didn't see suffering as a problem that needed solving.

[Ian Gentles]

Well. If God solved the "salvation problem" but not the "suffering problem" it must follow that He didn't see suffering as a problem that needed solving.

Why wouldent He as a God of love?

[Tami Martin]

I believe you have children, right Ian?

Do you only do for them things they will enjoy? Do you refrain in discipline - surely to be taken as suffering on the part of the person being disciplined - so they won't have to suffer?

You need to get past this idea that God being love means He won't allow us to suffer. He never, anywhere in His Word, promises we won't suffer. In fact, He goes as far as telling us that we WILL suffer for His sake if we follow Him.

[Ian Gentles]

I believe you have children, right Ian?

Do you only do for them things they will enjoy? Do you refrain in discipline - surely to be taken as suffering on the part of the person being disciplined - so they won't have to suffer?

You need to get past this idea that God being love means He won't allow us to suffer. He never, anywhere in His Word, promises we won't suffer. In fact, He goes as far as telling us that we WILL suffer for His sake if we follow Him.

I never laid severe suffering on children
Suffering for His same means at hands of the world.

[Tami Martin]

Then I'm afraid Ian that there are no answers for your questions.

[Hans Deventer]

I still keep thinking of Hans origenal point why didnt God remove suffering? I know we have gone over the point a lot but it still sticks in my mind. Why would a God of love allow something so awfull as suffering? I think because we live with it we kinda take it for granted mabe over accepting its existanse in our minds. Also i guess we can be fearfull af questioning God, i sure am. God comming to earth solved the salvation problem but it sure didnt solve the suffering one, kinda like He left us in limbo in a way.
This leads me back to an old question of mine why dosent prayer help the suffering more?

Ian, actually my attempt was to steer away from those questions because they have no answer. We can keep talking about them till we look blue in the face, but it is little or no use.

So I tried to look at it from a different perspective:

Reading Isaiah 53, I wondered:
What does it mean that God came down to this earth to suffer in stead of taking all suffering away, which He could have done? What should that say to us?

To be more precise, what does that say about suffering? I think at least we can say that He is not as preoccupied as we are to relieve it, or doing a very bad job at it. I don't believe the latter, so I need to believe the former.

Now why would it not be His #1 priority?

I still think we can find more answers in this direction, than in asking why He doesn't remove suffering in the first place.

It has been said that the way to gain knowledge is to learn to ask the right questions. I guess that is my main topic here. What is the right question regarding God and suffering?

[Ian Gentles]

I would say for what purpose does He allow it

[Hans Deventer]

I never laid severe suffering on children
Suffering for His same means at hands of the world.

Ian, He came to share in our sufferings. And being crucified is probably one of the worst ways to die. When you read a description of what it is, your stomach turns. (There are several places where it can be found, this (http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/5207/indexdr.html) one is merely the first I ran into.

I honestly think it entitles Him to the title that He is indeed a God of love.

Now don't make the mistake too many are making. They want to figure God out before they can believe in Him. But by definition, God is one who is above us and we can't figure Him out. That doesn't mean there is nothing we can understand of Him. There is lots, otherwise the very idea of God would communicate nothing. But it is like a jigsaw puzzle with lots of pieces missing. The ones we have are true, but we can't fill in all the blanc spots.

(That was one of the reasons why I don't believe in systematic theology, but that is another discussion).

[Hans Deventer]

I would say for what purpose does He allow it

And does that question lead you to an answer that helps?

[Anne and Dwayne Hood]

No, I, personally do not think suffering is a punishment to me. The morning after cancer surgery, I told the Christian Catholic doctor why I was suffering. Since then, he has done a biopsy on me, and prayed out loud in front of others for me before doing it.
There are times that satan tries to make me think I have done something wrong. But, I really believe another purpose for my suffering has been to slow me up, calm me down, trim off some of the rough places, etc., and make me more humble and less prideful. These things needed to be done. I really endeavor to look at suffering as being His hand extended to others, because I HAVE BEEN THERE. That is why He suffered for us. Try to sing, quote scriptue and develope a positive mindset about it. I know that is very hard. Work on your thought life. In the meantime, we will be praying for you. Dwayne does too. I hear him.

[Martijn van Beveren]

I would say for what purpose does He allow it

This question is a dead end.

My question to you however: Are you going to stick to this one with all your might, or are you willing to let it go and enter a new dimension?

Marty

[Ian Gentles]

This has been a very emotive subject for me at this time.

[Hans Deventer]

This has been a very emotive subject for me at this time.

I know, Ian. But I have to agree with Martijn. There will be no answer to this specific question. And I think you'll realize that. So that leaves you with the options to either look for a question that might help your further along (as I've been trying to formulate here) or indeed let it go. But I know that is so much easier said than done and it feels rather cold hearted to say this. I don't mean it in a cold hearted way though!

[Anne and Dwayne Hood]

The scripture was referring to His bleeding and dying for us, and also from heart ache and rejection. And, he was the oldest child, and felt responsible for his mother. Don't you know that the human in him hated to leave her?
His heart was broken when he died. Blood and water gushing out together was a sign of a broken heart.

[Martijn van Beveren]

I know, Ian. But I have to agree with Martijn. There will be no answer to this specific question. And I think you'll realize that. So that leaves you with the options to either look for a question that might help your further along (as I've been trying to formulate here) or indeed let it go. But I know that is so much easier said than done and it feels rather cold hearted to say this. I don't mean it in a cold hearted way though!

Ian, I guess it does talk a lot easier when you or a close person is not suffiering in any way. I'll apologise if I come on too strong, I'm sometimes strongly opinionated. So, I'll do my best to be more subtle in my formulations. Though I forget it when I'm just so busy reading, typing, reading a.s.o. With writing emotion is left out if you don't fill in on your message. Anyway, I wish that things were going okay for/with you.

Your bro' in Christ,
Marty

[Ian Gentles]

No problem Marty, you were right,

[Tami Martin]

You know, as I sit here, I am reminded of the heartfelt, but wrong, belief that so many hold: that God won't put more on us than we can handle.

That's true...if you're talking about temptation. God promises us directly that he won't allow us to be tempted beyond which we can bear. He further promises a way out. But for the rest of life no such promise exists. A woman in my SS class hasn't been back since I said this. I feel really bad and don't know how to contact her to explain myself.

When things are going good, I do not turn to God. I don't look for His help when all is well. That is my natural, human, fleshly tendency. And something I will likely always have to deal with as long as I have this tent of flesh to deal with.

But times of trial and suffering are times when I lean on Him. Sometimes it's a small thing. But sometimes - like now, when we buried my niece and nephew less than a month ago and on Monday we'll have to bury my grandfather - when the weight of suffering is so great, I throw myself completely on His promises and try Him. I see if what He says about not leaving me is true. I see if what He says about being sufficient for my needs is true. I find out if He really is a God who loves me THROUGH all the things that happen in life.

At these times I really taste Him and I do see...He IS good.

[Ian Gentles]

Interesting point which i have often wondered about myself

[Barb Bouldrey]

God sent His Son to take away our suffering from sin, not from life.

God sent His Son to reconcile us to Himself, not take away our suffering.

God promises to be with us in and through our suffering. Jesus prayed that the Holy Spirit would be with us in the world, not take us out of the world.

If God healed everyone and took away all their suffering just because they became Christians, everyone would want to be a Christian for the healing and end to suffering...instead of for the wonderful relationship of knowing Christ and enjoying the benefits of the Spirit-filled life.

Isaiah 43:1 tells us not to fear because God has redeemed us and knows our name. And then it goes on to tell us He is our God who will be with us through the fire and flood.

That is more important than freedom from suffering and healing.

Barb

[Daniel Curtis]

Here is my view on suffering. Suffering has its place in building our character. If God just simply put all the hurt out of our lives how would we react? Would we seek Him and follow him or be like spoiled children. While we tend to think that God blesses us by saving us from suffering, often the reverse is true. Consider Deut 32:15 where God was kind to Jeshrurun( another name for Israel) by granting them best of food, and exalted high place. The outcome was that they forgot God and got fat.

I can honestly say, that the suffering in my life has driven me closer to God, it has made me aware of my weakness and helped me remember that He is my strenth. Consider this analogy. As Christians are walking down the road of life, when things are beautiful and perfect we stand still on our journey. When trials and suffering come our way, we run down that road to our Father. That to me is why I think God allows tragedy into our lives.

Another point to consider is this. In Genesis man was given to the earth to subdue it( control). With that in mind, man only really has himself to blame for the condtion of the world. We cannot pin that on God, when it was our responsibility in the first place.

Jesus came to this earth and suffered for us. He came and went in our place, where we should have been for turning away from the Father. That is true love. God could have just wiped us out, but chose to die in our place, to take our sentence, that we might have salvation.

[Ian Gentles]

Good post.
But Adam and Eve sinned/fell, i didnt get a choise about suffering as they did lol
Yas suffering does grow charracter, but many suffer way beyond charracter building!

[Daniel Curtis]

I think that they just did not accept the character that God wanted them to have. Another example is the children of Israel wandering in the desert. They walked around for 40 years, because something was lacking in their character, they grumbled and complained and forgot what God has just done for them. Once they realized that God ushered them into the promised land.

Look at Job. Many tell the story that He was perfectly rigtheous and had all that trouble and heartache put upon him, but the Bible teaches in Job 32:1 that he was righteous in his own eyes. Sort of akin to pride wouldn't you say. We see in that book that he felt sorry for himself, and a few chapters are of God telling him so. You see his character changed under pressure, and God wanted to correct it.

As chritians God wants us to be disciples, which is a derviative of the word discipline. God wants us to be disciplined to follow him, and sometimes the hard things do it. Look at the armed services, when you go to boot camp you are miserable, but they turn out fine soldiers prepared for battle. That is the same with the Christian.

Now, sometimes people suffer because they bring it on themselves. I have a debiliating heart disease brought on by years of cheeseburgers and shakes. Should I blame God for that? I knew better but chose to do so. My sainted mother died of a lung disease, but when she was not saved smoked very heavily. God did not put the cigarette to her mouth, she did.

And of course the wickedness of man ( which goes back to we have control over the earth as Genesis says man was to subdue it). We hurt each other time and again. But like the song says...Lead me on...Many in the midst of their heartache and pain have found Christ through their pain. If it were not for the suffering they may not have looked at all.

[Ian Gentles]

Yet there i much suffering that isnt person related, not does it bring growth, it just grinds folks down.

[Daniel Curtis]

Suffering is always personal. It always affects someone who is close to the situation. The thing is how is that suffering affecting your belifs and attitude? If you turn it over to God and "In all things give thanks for this is the will of God". That simply means be thankful for the hard times as good as the bad, because God is teaching, and helping us to grow through this. His desire is for us to pray and seek His wisdom on these matters. I know that is easier said than done. We all have had things happen in our lives that shook our faith to the very core, but its how we handle it that ( I think) that will determine the lenght of the suffering.

[Ian Gentles]

You know, as I sit here, I am reminded of the heartfelt, but wrong, belief that so many hold: that God won't put more on us than we can handle.

That's true...if you're talking about temptation. God promises us directly that he won't allow us to be tempted beyond which we can bear. He further promises a way out. But for the rest of life no such promise exists. A woman in my SS class hasn't been back since I said this. I feel really bad and don't know how to contact her to explain myself.

When things are going good, I do not turn to God. I don't look for His help when all is well. That is my natural, human, fleshly tendency. And something I will likely always have to deal with as long as I have this tent of flesh to deal with.

But times of trial and suffering are times when I lean on Him. Sometimes it's a small thing. But sometimes - like now, when we buried my niece and nephew less than a month ago and on Monday we'll have to bury my grandfather - when the weight of suffering is so great, I throw myself completely on His promises and try Him. I see if what He says about not leaving me is true. I see if what He says about being sufficient for my needs is true. I find out if He really is a God who loves me THROUGH all the things that happen in life.

At these times I really taste Him and I do see...He IS good.

Dosent that suffering not mean persecution?

[Tami Martin]

I'm not sure what you mean, Ian.

[Ian Gentles]

God sent His Son to take away our suffering from sin, not from life.

God sent His Son to reconcile us to Himself, not take away our suffering.

God promises to be with us in and through our suffering. Jesus prayed that the Holy Spirit would be with us in the world, not take us out of the world.

If God healed everyone and took away all their suffering just because they became Christians, everyone would want to be a Christian for the healing and end to suffering...instead of for the wonderful relationship of knowing Christ and enjoying the benefits of the Spirit-filled life.

Isaiah 43:1 tells us not to fear because God has redeemed us and knows our name. And then it goes on to tell us He is our God who will be with us through the fire and flood.

That is more important than freedom from suffering and healing.

Barb


Never thought for one minet God would or should take away all suffering, and yes He strenthens us. My question is does it cause spiritual growth in any way? In fact havent many good folks faith been brocken through over much suffering?

[Ian Gentles]

Suffering is always personal. It always affects someone who is close to the situation. The thing is how is that suffering affecting your belifs and attitude? If you turn it over to God and "In all things give thanks for this is the will of God". That simply means be thankful for the hard times as good as the bad, because God is teaching, and helping us to grow through this. His desire is for us to pray and seek His wisdom on these matters. I know that is easier said than done. We all have had things happen in our lives that shook our faith to the very core, but its how we handle it that ( I think) that will determine the lenght of the suffering.


Well, i am not sure its always the will of God!

[Barbara Moulton]

Suffering is always personal. It always affects someone who is close to the situation. The thing is how is that suffering affecting your belifs and attitude? If you turn it over to God and "In all things give thanks for this is the will of God". That simply means be thankful for the hard times as good as the bad, because God is teaching, and helping us to grow through this. His desire is for us to pray and seek His wisdom on these matters. I know that is easier said than done. We all have had things happen in our lives that shook our faith to the very core, but its how we handle it that ( I think) that will determine the lenght of the suffering.

I don't thank God for the bad times. I thank God in the bad times for what He can do.

[Daniel Curtis]

I thank Him for the lessons learned from the hard times. I am reminded of the story of Corrie Ten Boom, who was praising God for the fleas that infested thier quaters when they were in the concentration camp. They were horrible, bit them, and tortured them. Her sister told her she was crazy for being thankful for such things. Later on, they discovered that the guards who were raping the women, would not go into where they were because of the bugs. That said, all things that happen have a reason and purpose, and we should be thankful for every little thing that happens in our lives. I am reminded of the song, For My Growing by Mylon LeFevere, which says that through the hard times, Be thankful because God is making you grow In Christ

[Barbara Moulton]

I thank Him for the lessons learned from the hard times. I am reminded of the story of Corrie Ten Boom, who was praising God for the fleas that infested thier quaters when they were in the concentration camp. They were horrible, bit them, and tortured them. Her sister told her she was crazy for being thankful for such things. Later on, they discovered that the guards who were raping the women, would not go into where they were because of the bugs. That said, all things that happen have a reason and purpose, and we should be thankful for every little thing that happens in our lives. I am reminded of the song, For My Growing by Mylon LeFevere, which says that through the hard times, Be thankful because God is making you grow In Christ

I don't want to quibble over semantics with you but I respectfully disagree. I don't believe that all things have a reason and purpose in and of themselves. But God can create reason and purpose out of them when we surrender.

Throughout my dad's career as an evangelist he was thankful for how God's used his blindness in a positive way as he spread the gospel. People were blessed by his testimony of faith and responded to him as he preached from the braille bible.

But I never heard my dad say, "I thank God that a doctor made the mistake when I was born that caused me to lose my eyesight." Now that he has alzheimers, his blindness exacerbates his disconnect with all that is going around. I am not going to thank God for this.

Now, in chaplaincy, I often hear people say that God has a reason for what is happening to them. If believing that God caused tragedy for a purpose is helpful to them, I would never challenge that belief, even if I don't accept it myself.

And I also recognize that, when they say it, they are just using different words to express their surrender to God.

But in my own life, I do not thank God for suffering and pain and things that happen because of evil in the world.

[Ian Gentles]

I'm not sure what you mean, Ian.

I always so the suffering meant in that context came from persecution for our faith, and not general suffering, but hey i could be wrong.

[Barbara Moulton]

You know, as I sit here, I am reminded of the heartfelt, but wrong, belief that so many hold: that God won't put more on us than we can handle.

I agree.

I think we need to teach that nothing can happen in our lives that is beyond God's ability to redeem. But the reality is that I can't properly handle any of the things that happen in my life (good or bad) without surrender to God.

I have never understood why people find it helpful to believe that God is dumping stuff on us saying, "Trust me, I won't give you more than you can handle."

[Daniel Curtis]

You misunderstand my intent, I am thankful for the lessons learned through the hard times. And I agree it is a personal belief for many. Just last year at the age of 38 I had a stroke which and found out I had a heart condition. I lost my job over this and fell on very very hard times. My mother died, and my adopted brother became ill. But in all of this I learned to lean on God in such a new and refreshing way. Out of all of my turmoil, he showed me things in my life (some things I did not want to see, and others I needed to). It helped me to change and come into a closer relationship with him, and for me personally, I know that I needed the discipline of disaster. Now I am speaking from a personal insight, and I know that in my own stubborness, I would not have this relationship without being put flat on my back. I just now it.

For me, I have tried to be thankful in opposition of resentment for the trials of my life, because again, on a personal level, they have helped me to grow, and anything that leads me closer to God I am thankful for.

But I think God touches us all in different ways. For me this was necessary, and I would not want to go through it again but would to grow in Christ. For me, I hold fast to all things work together for good.... and yes it is a way of surrender to God, and that is how I look at it in my life, a way in which I became fully(or at least more) commited. But again, it is the lessons learned more than the circumstance that I rejoice in.

Love in Christ
Daniel

[Ian Gentles]

Barabara ya hit the nail on the head, We dont see suffering as a means of Grace, but thank Him despite of it!

[Barbara Moulton]

You misunderstand my intent, I am thankful for the lessons learned through the hard times. And I agree it is a personal belief for many. Just last year at the age of 38 I had a stroke which and found out I had a heart condition. I lost my job over this and fell on very very hard times. My mother died, and my adopted brother became ill. But in all of this I learned to lean on God in such a new and refreshing way. Out of all of my turmoil, he showed me things in my life (some things I did not want to see, and others I needed to). It helped me to change and come into a closer relationship with him, and for me personally, I know that I needed the discipline of disaster. Now I am speaking from a personal insight, and I know that in my own stubborness, I would not have this relationship without being put flat on my back. I just now it.

For me, I have tried to be thankful in opposition of resentment for the trials of my life, because again, on a personal level, they have helped me to grow, and anything that leads me closer to God I am thankful for.

But I think God touches us all in different ways. For me this was necessary, and I would not want to go through it again but would to grow in Christ. For me, I hold fast to all things work together for good.... and yes it is a way of surrender to God, and that is how I look at it in my life, a way in which I became fully(or at least more) commited. But again, it is the lessons learned more than the circumstance that I rejoice in.

Love in Christ
Daniel


Blessings!

[Anne and Dwayne Hood]

Sufering has not beat me down and made me bitter. It seems that each time, I realize it has brought me closer to God. Suffering is in this world because of sin, and that is why Christ died. When things come our way, because sin is inthe world, it is my opinion that we are sharing in the fellowship of His sufferings. Phil 3:10 I claimed his scripture for about 20 years. Then, when cancer came and caused so much terrible suffering, I just have not gotten the strength back to stand on it again--yet. Give me time. I just quit those old chemo pills on my own around ten months ago. But, I am not saying that I am beat down spiritually. I don't think of suffering as persecution, but there are times, we may be or have been persecated. That goes back to the fact that sin is in the world, and here we go back to the beginning of what I have written--no matter what caused the suffering.

[Hans Deventer]

Sufering has not beat me down and made me bitter. It seems that each time, I realize it has brought me closer to God.

Anne, I think suffering in itself is neutral to our either growing in grace or becoming bitter. But it does bring to the surface what is already there.

Some, in the concentration camps of WW2, lost their faith. Others found it. The circumstances were the same. So one can only conclude, it wasn't the suffering itself.

[Randy Wise]

I full well understand that neither the first nor the last words will be spoken here on this subject, but the other day, reading Isaiah 53, I wondered:

What does it mean that God came down to this earth to suffer in stead of taking all suffering away, which He could have done? What should that say to us? And why DID He heal people on a small scale, considering your answer to the first question?

To seek answers to the way you asked your question I ponder the thoughts below.

Love/redemption

God is good and has always shown a loving kindness to those that love and obey Him. There is a day set when He will take action against those who don't love and obey Him on a very large scale and on that day we who belong to God will be raised like the angels of God.

God did provide a large scale redemption plan from our sin and even allowed His own Holy Spirit to dwell in us. Having a mortal human body that is subject to suffering is part of the creation at this point.

Why did God make man and why was man made lower than the angels? Was Adam mortal before the fall as sin/death/suffering entered into the world through the one man?

[Ian Gentles]

Anne, I think suffering in itself is neutral to our either growing in grace or becoming bitter. But it does bring to the surface what is already there.

Some, in the concentration camps of WW2, lost their faith. Others found it. The circumstances were the same. So one can only conclude, it wasn't the suffering itself.

I couldent have said it better, i dont see suffering as some blessing! What about when people are called to endure more that they can? and this happens even to christians!

[Martijn van Beveren]

To seek answers to the way you asked your question I ponder the thoughts below.

Love/redemption

God is good and has always shown a loving kindness to those that love and obey Him. There is a day set when He will take action against those who don't love and obey Him on a very large scale and on that day we who belong to God will be raised like the angels of God.

So, when Jesus walked on the earth he just healed the good and faithful people? Why didn't he start with the pharisees first? They did everything the right way, or the priests of the temple?
Oh, but wait a minute, Jesus healed the people who were poor sick and not to forget the outcast, the moral lost edge of the society. Not the ones you'd expect to follow the way of the lord, do we... Maybe God's grace goes beyond your own narrow path.


God did provide a large scale redemption plan from our sin and even allowed His own Holy Spirit to dwell in us. Having a mortal human body that is subject to suffering is part of the creation at this point.


Hmmm.... this bit I can handle :)

Marty

[Randy Wise]

So, when Jesus walked on the earth he just healed the good and faithful people? Why didn't he start with the pharisees first? They did everything the right way, or the priests of the temple?
Oh, but wait a minute, Jesus healed the people who were poor sick and not to forget the outcast, the moral lost edge of the society. Not the ones you'd expect to follow the way of the lord, do we... Maybe God's grace goes beyond your own narrow path.



Hmmm.... this bit I can handle :)

Marty

Wow! I don't believe I made those statements, but I would state Jesus is willing to help anyone who came to Him with respect/faith.
Randy

[Ian Gentles]

Wow! I don't believe I made those statements, but I would state Jesus is willing to help anyone who came to Him with respect/faith.
Randy

Hope He does ;)

[Terri Knoll]

As humans, we're pretty self-centered.

At the risk of being ridiculed as others have been before me for wondering things such as this, I wonder if God's coming to earth to suffer had more to do with God than it did with humanity.

This is yet another question that I think open theism at least begins to help me with.

I've wondered that too Jeremy: did God say what is wrong with these people? why can't they follow the rules and stay out of trouble? maybe I better go down there and find out....and they killed him.

ah hah says God...now I know!

[Barbara Moulton]

I've wondered that too Jeremy: did God say what is wrong with these people? why can't they follow the rules and stay out of trouble? maybe I better go down there and find out....and they killed him.

ah hah says God...now I know!

Another way of looking at it:

If we accept one major premise of Open Theism, that God truly does interact meaningfully with His creation (taking risks, responding to us, changing course of action), then the Incarnation makes a lot of sense.

You could say that the Incarnation was God entrusting the plan of salvation to Himself. He certainly had seen throughout history that entrusting His plans to even the most worthy of individuals, did not always work out the way He would have desired. On something as important as our salvation, He really did have to give it to someone who He knew would be able to "stay the course".

[Ian Gentles]

So in regards healings, miracles etc, what does open theism say, can we change Gods actions?

[Barbara Moulton]

So in regards healings, miracles etc, what does open theism say, can we change Gods actions?

Change God's actions? Not sure about that wording. Influence God's actions I think.

I think God responds to us and will adjust His course of action based on how we respond to Him. Then we respond to His response and He responds to our response...and so on and so on and so on :-)

But, as you probably would gather, I don't think that God always responds the way we think He should respond. And we don't always respond the way He would like us to.

So it's all one big creative thing we are doing with God.

And the more we create with Him, the more we can start to see His preference for us.

I am convinced that His preferred work in our lives is normally something other than a miracle.

[Ian Gentles]

Yes indeed it is a miracle. I still am not sure we can influence Gods actions!

[Barbara Moulton]

Yes indeed it is a miracle. I still am not sure we can influence Gods actions!

I think the whole testimony of history is God interacting with humanity, responding to their actions.

But I don't think that He usually responds with supernatural interventions like miracles. Just constant leading and direction that we can choose to follow or not follow.

And if we don't follow at one point but then come back to Him in surrender, then He may have to respond and direct us in a way that He wasn't before.

[Terri Knoll]

yep you said it way better than I could. thanx

God is an awesome God

[Anne and Dwayne Hood]

My suffering has been very good for me spiritually. I never knew what people called "out broken sin was," because I had never been there. Do you understand what I am saying? So, I could not fully understand what Christ had done for me. I remember the first time, I felt that I really saw sin.
No one smoked, cursed, drank, etc. in our home. No one had screaming carnal fits and knocked people around. We were looked at as a Christian family. People came to us for help, hunger, physical, spiritually, lodging, etc.
I feel like the grievious things God allowed to come to me, were so I could realize what I had been through, and what God had brought me through. Thus, making me see what He had done for me. Each time he brought me through things that came my way, and itbroke my body or spirit, it helped me more to realize what he had brought me through. Each time, I drew closer to him. Each thing helped me to better be His hand extended to others. Why? Now, I had been there, done that, and also, God had brought me through it. I loved Phil 3:10,but the cancer got me down so, that I have not yet gotten to the place that I can again claim that scripture as my favorite. I still fear for what will happen to me, if I embrace it again. I am just not strong enough physically or emotionally to handle anymore---I feel.

[Daniel Curtis]

My suffering has been very good for me spiritually. I never knew what people called "out broken sin was," because I had never been there. Do you understand what I am saying? So, I could not fully understand what Christ had done for me. I remember the first time, I felt that I really saw sin.
No one smoked, cursed, drank, etc. in our home. No one had screaming carnal fits and knocked people around. We were looked at as a Christian family. People came to us for help, hunger, physical, spiritually, lodging, etc.
I feel like the grievious things God allowed to come to me, were so I could realize what I had been through, and what God had brought me through. Thus, making me see what He had done for me. Each time he brought me through things that came my way, and itbroke my body or spirit, it helped me more to realize what he had brought me through. Each time, I drew closer to him. Each thing helped me to better be His hand extended to others. Why? Now, I had been there, done that, and also, God had brought me through it. I loved Phil 3:10,but the cancer got me down so, that I have not yet gotten to the place that I can again claim that scripture as my favorite. I still fear for what will happen to me, if I embrace it again. I am just not strong enough physically or emotionally to handle anymore---I feel.


I can fully apreciate what you just have said so eloquently. Sometimes the suffering makes you see how powerful God really is. There is a song by Kathy Tricoli that says
How would I know you could deliver, How would I know you could set free
If there had never been a battle, how would I know the victory
How would I know you could be faithful to meet all of my needs
Lord, I appreciate the hard times otherwise how would I know.

I felt the same way through my trials, although they were not pleasant, I praise God for the way He brought me through, and I praise Him for what I learned. I feel that I know Christ in a new and Dynamic way. I have felt His comfort, and love. He picked me up and held me close, and dried all of my tears. I praise God for the lessons I learned.

[Ian Gentles]

I think God does things with us in our suffering, but i still beleive some suffer more that they can bare, and what of those who lost their faith through suffering, was God in that? I doubt it!

[Daniel Curtis]

I think God does things with us in our suffering, but i still beleive some suffer more that they can bare, and what of those who lost their faith through suffering, was God in that? I doubt it!

But your faith is your choice, that is to say, we all have a decison to make. God never promised it would be easy. Doen't it also say He will not put more on us that we can bare? And with God all things are possible. Yes people suffer greatly, but if we turn to God, won't He help us if we purpose to believe it? For me I have to hold onto that promise.

[Hans Deventer]

Doen't it also say He will not put more on us that we can bare?

http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php?p=117599#post117599

[Barbara Moulton]

Doen't it also say He will not put more on us that we can bare?

This idea is not in Scripture but it sure is repeated a great deal. It comes out of this verse:

Corinthians 10:12-14
So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall! 13No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.

As Tami pointed out, this refers to God knowing how much temptation we are able to handle and promising that He won't allow more temptation to come into our lives then we have the spiritual strength and resources to resist.

It doesn't say that God pours suffering and problems on us saying, "Trust me, you can handle this." I really wouldn't find that belief very comforting anyway.

But even if we do take Corinthians 10:12-14 as relating to suffering as well, I think there is something very significant to be found by reading it in context. It says that ".....God will provide a way out." I think people forget that part. They are often looking for delivery from their circumstances when God is saying....here is the way through and out.

And this is where (I believe) another amazing promise from God comes in.

2 Corinthians 12:9
But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me

When we are suffering we feel weak. Suffering may also reveals weaknesses.

It seems to me that God promises to be there in the midst of our suffering and that the weaker we admit we are, the more His strength can work in us.

Again, for me it comes back to this amazing fact that God is with us IN our suffering, giving us the resources that we need to move through it. Giving us strength and helping us have faith to envision a different future.

I must seem like a stuck record because it is a common theme in many of my posts. It comes back to surrender. Learning to surrender has led to the greatest and most powerful spiritual breakthroughs in my life and has impacted every part of my life.

And when I surrender...God IS present with all His strength in my time of weakness.

And that really does give us a reason to praise Him in our sufferings. Because suffering helps us acknowledge our own weakness and dependance on God.

[Daniel Curtis]

Very good point Barb, and when we are weak, then He is strong.

[Daniel Curtis]

I have personally felt a humbling in my spirit when I go through difficulties of this life. It is in these times that I know that I cannot make it on my own. It is in these times that I know his strenth, because I have had to rely on God to get me through. I guess the bottom line to all of this, is we have a God who loves us and is there for us. When we are hurting He is ever present to help us. God is my refuge and my stregth.

[Barbara Moulton]

Very good point Barb, and when we are weak, then He is strong.

Just a little thing but I prefer Barbara :) When people say "Barb" I have to look to see who they are talking about.

Blessings....

[Daniel Curtis]

Sorry, Barbara...lol

[Ian Gentles]

How often does God really make a way out? I still see many with no way out!

[Daniel Curtis]

How often does God really make a way out? I still see many with no way out!


I cannot speak for everyone, but He has got me through a lot of tough things. A lot of the things were just a peace that passes understanding, or a change of heart and attitude, which causes me to see everything in a different light. For example, I have ventricular dysfuntion. If God does not perform a miraculous healing, I will probably not live long. But I have great peace, I have great joy, not in the illness, but in the fact that no matter the outcome, weather I live or die, Jesus is with me. In that regard I have been set free from my suffering. yes I get ill, yes I get weak, but it is temporal, and knowing that has given me personal freedom and joy. It has also made me more sensitive to the needs of others who are ill, and has opened my eyes. I know you may say, well, you are not really free from anything, but in my heart and in my spirit I know that I am. I am holding on to the hope and promises of God.

I firmly believe that a change of attitude and mindset can be freeing just as well. At least for me it has freed me from turning a blind eye to others who may be experiencing something similar. I think when a human goes through something they become more empathetic. I think what we consider being delivered from suffering can vary by person to person. He has given me hope, and that is my way out. I don't know if this makes sense to everyone, or just me, but I feel delivered.

[Barbara Moulton]

How often does God really make a way out? I still see many with no way out!

Depends what you are looking for when you talk about a "way out". A miracle door in the middle of the road isn't usually it.

For me, the "way out" was the most difficult decision I have ever made in my Christian walk. It took a year to make that decision. Life hasn't been one wonderful bed of roses since but if I was still in the situation that I decided to leave, I would be a mess.

I remember my mom preaching a sermon a long time ago. I still have her sermon notes. She preached about "What's in your hand?"

I think about that a lot when I feel overwhelmed.

[Ian Gentles]

Great sermone title :)