Your advise on remaining in the denomination

[Administrator]

This is an anonymous post...


"It's come to my attention that the Nazarene Church requires a person to check "yes" in the entire sanctification box before they are ordained. I feel called to ministry, love the Nazarene denomination, but don't necessarily feel like I can check yes in that box. It would feel like claiming something that isn't mine. My current struggle is on whether to leave the Nazarene church for another denomination since I will not be able to fully function as a pastor should within the denomination. It's not something I necessarily want to do, but as of right now I see no other alternative if I'm going to pursue God's call on my life.

I was wondering if any ordained elder has had a similar experience or if they'd have any advice to share."

[David Graham]

Before I was ordained, I too struggled with this same issue, although it was nothing to do with my personal "experience" with God but much rather the terminology of "entire sanctification". I ticked the box "yes" in the sense that I agreed with what I believed to be the "spirit" or intention of the question rather than my personal interpretation about what I believed that entire sanctification meant.

Entire sanctification are not used in the scripture. Likewise the word "entire" which qualifies the word sanctification is an oxymoron in that it infers a "complete completeness" which is rediculous. And finally for me the scriptural connotation of sanctification as being declared holy and being set apart for God differs from an "absolute" understanding of the word "entire"; hence leaving an impression of that which is impossible e.g sinless perfection or even of a "Godlike" personality with Godlike attributes. Much rather the idea of sanctification is relative to our relationship with God and journey with him. As we do this we are holy; when we don't we are not! As the scripture says: "as we walk in the light as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanses our hearts from all sin."

Blessings,
Dave

[Shea Zellweger]

My Credentials board had to drag my "yes" out of me. On my licensing application, they were open ended questions, like "describe your salvation experience, sanctification experience, and your call to the ministry." For sanctification, I wrote about how I was continually being sanctified, and would never be a finished product. I know that according to most definitions of ES, I've been there for a while, but part of my rationale is that although I have fully consecrated to God my life, soul, all, etc, that is in the present, and as new things come in to my life about which I care, I must in turn consecrate them- my son was a prime example of this. I believe it was Glenn Messer (though the meeting's a little fuzzy at this point) who finally talked me into admitting I was sanctified :). My suggestion would be that if you are indeed fully committed to living a Christlike life as best you know how, tell them that, and also tell them that whether they want to call that sanctification, 2nd blessing, baptised with the Holy Spirit, or any of the 48 other terms used is up to them. Describe your consecration of self in the way you best know how, and if they see that as unsatisfactory, so be it.

[Scott Sherwood]

You are definitely at a defining moment in your life. I can't tell for sure whether you agree with the doctrine but lack the experience or if you disagree with the doctrine and therefore consider the experience to be mythical.

If the former, I would recommend reading Wesley's "A Plain Account of Christian Perfection," or perhaps the Barefoot Ministries version of it (which I actually find less understandable). Follow that up with a conversation with someone in the Church of the Nazarene whom you would swear if there was such a thing, they must have it. Ask them what their experience has been?

If the latter, I think you'd be right at home amongst a significant portion of our clergy who somehow have justified withholding the truth about their opposition to the substance of Article X in order to receive the blessing of the church on their ministry via ordination. However, I can't imagine you would be making the right decision for you or for the church.

I am available to you if you'd like to process this with someone who went through a similar struggle, studied like crazy, and then ended up buying in because the Wesleyan-Holiness tradition came closer than any other (in my opinion) to having a cardinal doctrine that strikes at the very center of Christian doctrine, experience, and mission. (Holiness, I mean, not just Entire Sanctification). I'm not an expert by any means but I have been through a similar journey. Feel free to pm me and I'll give you my email address.

You are engaged in a worthwhile struggle, and I applaud you for it.

[Shea Zellweger]

let me just add one more thing- Although I do support Article X (and Tom Oord's suggestions on changing Article X), I have always appreciated the spirit of those who approach the topic with trepidation, rather than those who make brash and hasty claims regarding their sanctification experiences. Perhaps that's prejudiced of me, but in many cases I feel that those who are content to simply check a box have not really thought their own experiences through. Again, probably prejudiced, but it's how I feel.

[Jim Chabot]

My brother in law had similar reservations, and he was open and honest with the credentials board. They did ordain him, and I don't believe that he gave them a full yes on the ES question.

I would recommend Wesley's Plain Account of Christian Perfection as well.

[Roland Hearn]

The concept of entire sanctification is far from without biblical support. While at times we may misunderstand or misrepresent what is intended the Church of the Nazarene was raised up to continual address what that concept means in reality. Without that aim we have no reason to exist. We are not a generic evangelical church. Perhaps one of the best fit points for the phrase is in Thessalonians 5:23 "May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." Now it is possible that when Paul was talking of "through and through" he was talking rhetorically but there is good reason to think him meant something significant, along with his Ephesian emphasis that we "be filled up with all the fullness of God." Sanctification is God's response to our consecration. Consecration can be a very misunderstood concept. To me we are talking of far more than simply saying "I give you everything, I'll go anywhere." What is implicit in this concept is a relational vulnerability to the presence and love of God that allows him to go on transforming us. I believe it is possible for any and every Christian to know for certain that right here, right now, I am completely open and vulnerable to the love of God and He is making me more like Himself. The idea that sanctification can be equated to sinless perfection is a human error but not a necessary one. We are not talking about doing more and better things for God. We are talking about being more utterly open to His love. I am comfortable with crisis language. I think people can come into a profound and utter realisation of all that those ideas entail and instantaneously realise what the presence of God in their lives is all about. Such encounter with God establishes a walk with Him at a level not before understood. I don't think that is the only way God can bring us to such a place of abandonment to Himself. The issue is one of answering the question, "what is it that defines me?" " From where do I draw my worth and identity?" When we understand Christ as, not the sole, but primary source of those things we are were we should be. I for one am at a loss to know why anyone would want to be in ministry without such a sense of surrender, openness and vulnerability. As if we can perform His tasks in our strength. We are not called to perform, we are called to "be." So maybe the question is clumsily placed and worded in the application, I believe it is, but let us encourage one another to continually pursue all that His love can do in our lives. If we do not keep the first things the first things what is the point. I for one am proud to be part of a denomination that has struggled with these issues. I think we do it poorly sometimes but better the struggle than ignoring the deepest call. Let me encourage the anonymous one by saying, if you are honest in the answer, and declare that you are pursuing God with all your being I would be surprised at the board of credentials that would not be satisfied. If you aren't doing that do you really want to be in ministry anywhere?

[John Kennedy]

I still think there are three distinct groups of Nazarenes on this issue: those holding the traditional AHM position, those espousing the classic Wesleyan position, and those (by far the largest group) saying, "Hey, what're you guys talking about?"
I expect to see all three groups in heaven. I devoutly hope they entertain similar expectations in regard to me.

[Billy Cox]

I still think there are three distinct groups of Nazarenes on this issue: those holding the traditional AHM position, those espousing the classic Wesleyan position, and those (by far the largest group) saying, "Hey, what're you guys talking about?"
I expect to see all three groups in heaven. I devoutly hope they entertain similar expectations in regard to me.

I surmise that the third group is by far the largest. Maybe that's a good thing.

[Billy Cox]

This is an anonymous post...

"It's come to my attention that the Nazarene Church requires a person to check "yes" in the entire sanctification box before they are ordained. I feel called to ministry, love the Nazarene denomination, but don't necessarily feel like I can check yes in that box. It would feel like claiming something that isn't mine. My current struggle is on whether to leave the Nazarene church for another denomination since I will not be able to fully function as a pastor should within the denomination. It's not something I necessarily want to do, but as of right now I see no other alternative if I'm going to pursue God's call on my life.

I was wondering if any ordained elder has had a similar experience or if they'd have any advice to share."


If checking the box is a major challenge to your sense of integrity, then don't do it. There are plenty of other God-honoring denominations or independent groups that don't require their pastors to pay lip service to a second work of grace.

For the record, I'm not an elder and I never intend to pursue ordination within the CoTN or any other denomination. It's really more of a matter of ecclesiology than anything relating to the doctrine of holiness.

[Hans Deventer]

Dear anonymous, even John Wesley himself probably would not have checked the box. At least, he never claimed to possess what he preached. The question came from a specific understanding of ES that is probably not all that predominant in the CotN anymore. A good credentials board will recognize this.
Since you love our church, I would not run away too soon. Start the process. Talk to your pastor. See where the Lord will lead you. His Kingdom is much bigger than the CotN, but it might just be He has a place for you among us.

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

The concept of entire sanctification is far from without biblical support.

I quoted just the first line, but this entire post is, I think, excellent. It says what I think better than I can think it or say it. And it blesses my heart this morning.

[Ryan Scott]

I'm not ordained as of yet, but I have gone through now five district license interviews. Each time, I leave the yes/no box blank, but I do supply information about the moment I committed myself to God completely and began allowing God to make the decisions in my life.

I think this describes what I was taught growing up was "sanctification." Now I certainly didn't experience after that moment the life I'd heard people describe. The more I've studied, especially Wesley, I'd compare that experience to what he calls salvation. I had previously decided that God's way was the right way, but only in that moment did I begin to allow God's way to be my way.

I am a different person - I think that's what the credentials board wanted to hear. I can testify to real, miraculous, internal life change. Do I consider it sanctification? When asked, I usually reply that while it fits the description I was given growing up, John Wesley wouldn't have called it that.

My experience has been that a credentials board wants pastors who understand these issues and converse responsibly with them. They want people who are committed to becoming more Christlike, not just in action, but in disposition. If you can attest to that, I'm not sure it matters what you call it.

Then again, I just moved to a new district, so we'll see what happens next year.

[Brady Lane]

The concept of entire sanctification is far from without biblical support. While at times we may misunderstand or misrepresent what is intended the Church of the Nazarene was raised up to continual address what that concept means in reality. Without that aim we have no reason to exist. We are not a generic evangelical church. Perhaps one of the best fit points for the phrase is in Thessalonians 5:23 "May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." Now it is possible that when Paul was talking of "through and through" he was talking rhetorically but there is good reason to think him meant something significant, along with his Ephesian emphasis that we "be filled up with all the fullness of God." Sanctification is God's response to our consecration. Consecration can be a very misunderstood concept. To me we are talking of far more than simply saying "I give you everything, I'll go anywhere." What is implicit in this concept is a relational vulnerability to the presence and love of God that allows him to go on transforming us. I believe it is possible for any and every Christian to know for certain that right here, right now, I am completely open and vulnerable to the love of God and He is making me more like Himself. The idea that sanctification can be equated to sinless perfection is a human error but not a necessary one. We are not talking about doing more and better things for God. We are talking about being more utterly open to His love. I am comfortable with crisis language. I think people can come into a profound and utter realisation of all that those ideas entail and instantaneously realise what the presence of God in their lives is all about. Such encounter with God establishes a walk with Him at a level not before understood. I don't think that is the only way God can bring us to such a place of abandonment to Himself. The issue is one of answering the question, "what is it that defines me?" " From where do I draw my worth and identity?" When we understand Christ as, not the sole, but primary source of those things we are were we should be. I for one am at a loss to know why anyone would want to be in ministry without such a sense of surrender, openness and vulnerability. As if we can perform His tasks in our strength. We are not called to perform, we are called to "be." So maybe the question is clumsily placed and worded in the application, I believe it is, but let us encourage one another to continually pursue all that His love can do in our lives. If we do not keep the first things the first things what is the point. I for one am proud to be part of a denomination that has struggled with these issues. I think we do it poorly sometimes but better the struggle than ignoring the deepest call. Let me encourage the anonymous one by saying, if you are honest in the answer, and declare that you are pursuing God with all your being I would be surprised at the board of credentials that would not be satisfied. If you aren't doing that do you really want to be in ministry anywhere?

Roland, I do not post or respond very often on this forum anymore, but I want you to know how very much I appreciated this thoughtful response. Blessings on you this day.

[Kelly R Davis]

I just heard Dan Bohi , a layman, ( Jim Bohi's son) give a clear testimony concerning God's call to holy living, the sanctified life. I think it would be worth your time to listen to his testimony.

[David Pettigrew]

Roland, I do not post or respond very often on this forum anymore, but I want you to know how very much I appreciated this thoughtful response. Blessings on you this day.

Well, we've missed you! Now's a good time to start.

[Ian Gentles]

God works in different ways with different folks, I would say you are a work of sanctification in proggress, so can tick the box.

[Russell Metcalfe]

At the risk of self-promotion, a study book which came out this June from Word Action, titles "Holiness Made Clear" deals with this concept of secondness as a practical doctrine, comparing entire sanctification to sealing a covenant much like marriage is sealed with mutual promises. We Nazarenes do not have a corner on holiness, nor do we "own" the Holy Spirit. All Christians are sanctified in the sense that they have surrendered their lives to God. All are being sanctified in that more and more we are being made like Christ. What we call ES and the Keswickians call The Deeper Life in Christ, and a lot of other folk from RC to Pentecostals have discovered is that there is a "rest of faith" that comes with one eternal " Y E S !" to the call of God that forever settles all the little "Yesses" ever after-- not that we do not have choices, but that we have made a Covenant-- that is His (God's) idea..and we can and will be true to that covenant.
I do not have to say over and over to my wife of 55 years "I'll keep my word! I will be true." I just do! I do have to tell her (once in a while anyway) that I love her and I do have to ask her to forgive me for not picking up my socks or something-- but some things have been totally settled.
I cannot "give myself to God" today in one sense because I did that years ago-- I can and do confirm that I belong to Him (see Wesley's Covenant service prayer which I pray often. Lots of people who do not agree with my "secondness" in theology have arrived at this "rest of faith"--some--no many- of whom are as "sanctified" as I and beyond . . . but still Romans 12:1 can and to my mind ought to be a cornerstone that can and does say that eternal "YEA!", and along with Hebrews 12:1, which speaks of running the race with perseverence are the Twin Towers of Holiness in my mind.

[Kelly R Davis]

O. Chambers often speaks to the call and provision of Sanctifcation.

SANCTIFICATION

"This is the will of God, even your sanctification." 1 Thessalonians 4:3

The Death Side. In sanctification God has to deal with us on the death side as well as on the life side. Many of us spend so much time in the place of death that we get sepulchral. There is always a battle royal before sanctification, always something that tugs with resentment against the demands of Jesus Christ. Immediately the Spirit of God begins to show us what sanctification means, the struggle begins. "If any man come to Me and hate not . . his own life, he cannot be My disciple."

The Spirit of God in the process of sanctification will strip me until I am nothing but "myself," that is the place of death. Am I willing to be "myself," and nothing more - no friends, no father, no brother, no self-interest - simply ready for death? That is the condition of sanctification. No wonder Jesus said: "I came not to send peace, but a sword." This is where the battle comes, and where so many of us faint. We refuse to be identified with the death of Jesus on this point. "But it is so stern," we say; "He cannot wish me to do that." Our Lord is stern; and He does wish us to do that.

Am I willing to reduce myself simply to "me," determinedly to strip myself of all my friends think of me, of all I think of myself, and to hand that simple naked self over to God? Immediately I am, He will sanctify me wholly, and my life will be free from earnestness in connection with every thing but God.

When I pray - "Lord, show me what sanctification means for me," He will show me. It means being made one with Jesus. Sanctification is not something Jesus Christ puts into me: it is Himself in me. (1 Cor. 1:30.)

[David Pettigrew]

My advise - if you love the Church of the Nazarene, just be honest with your board of ministry when questioned, be open to God's leading in your life, and keep going in the process until the door is shut.