Biggest Naz Fear?

[Charles W Christian]

There's ongoing discussion about changes in approach and doctrinal statement. I have good friends who are involved in all parts of the "spectrum" of the discussions/debates that are going on. A question that I think seems relevant when I hear these discussions is:

What are some of your "fears" concerning the future of the Church of the Nazarene?

I'm not a pessimist, and I know that perfect love casts out fear, but it seems that people discussing these issues are very passionate about particular statements/approaches/trends, etc., and I'm wondering if some Naznetters could articulate some of the fears/concerns regarding the "preservation" and the identity of the denomination in the days ahead.

Thoughts?

Charles

[Ryan Scott]

I'm most afraid that whatever happens in the future, division will reign over Christ-likeness and community.

[Scott Sherwood]

Any change to the statement (and conviction) that "Scripture is our rule of both faith and practice." By that I mean any attempt to place tradition/community or anything else on par with Scripture in terms of authority.

I hope the discussions currently taking place on this issue in our institutions do not continue to begin with name-calling ("fundamentalist") and end with the intellectually dishonest claims that John Wesley himself considered tradition to be on par with Scripture. His own writings scream the contrary.

[Anne and Dwayne Hood]

To be honestly truthful, there seems to be less to fear concerning our zion, than some of you seem to think. As long as our aim is to be holy, and Christlike, what is there to fear? Just continue to preach it, and live it by example.

[Charles W Christian]

To be honestly truthful, there seems to be less to fear concerning our zion, than some of you seem to think. As long as our aim is to be holy, and Christlike, what is there to fear? Just continue to preach it, and live it by example.

Anne -
I think you make a valid point here. My point was just to let people express some concerns that may be "just beneath the surface" of things, so to speak. For example, when I hear debates/discussions about changing the Manual statement on entire sanctification, I hear fears from some that people are "getting rid of our essential doctrine," etc. I don't agree that this is what the attempt is, but I think those who say this have a right for their fears/concerns (concerns may be a better word) to be heard, and I know that some share those concerns/fears.

Thanks,
Charles

[Bob Evans]

Charles

My biggest fear is that the message of full consecration and holy living will get lost in our effort to get all the doctrine correct. It's what makes us special and I woudl hate to loose that.

[David Rhone]

Good question.

The reality of the decline of The Church of the Nazarene in North America should be clear to all of us. The number of churches actually declining far outnumbers those that are growing. There is some small comfort in the fact that Nazarenes are not alone in this and that the same is true with other evangelicals as well.

The problem doesn't seem to lie in the number of people being saved. That's still high. Rather, our back door is as wide open as our front door and we retain fewer than 10% of the people led to the Lord in our churches. If you are a pastor, then you already know that we have been and continue to fall short in the area of bringing newly saved people into discipleship.

I took part in a conference for Nazarene pastors in Anaheim, California, following my presentation on The Master's Plan at M7 in February. Dr. Jerry Porter was there and what we heard him say was shocking to some. Jerry stood before this group of pastors and apologized for himself, the Board of General Superintendents and the Church of the Nazarene for our failure as a denomination to make disciples. We have seen millions saved at our altars but worldwide we number fewer than two million.

The Master's Plan, known in the Pentecostal world as "G-12" builds on the principle of twelve, making disciples who make disciples. This Vision is transforming the Nazarene churches in which it is being implemented. If you would like to know more about it, I would be happy to help.

Dave Rhone
Senior Pastor
The Master's Plan Church of the Nazarene
San Bernardino, California

[Greg Farra]

Well, I'm surprised there aren't more Nazarenes. I was Lutheran for 19 years, and when we looked for a church, we joined the COTN. I think we have a lot to offer. A major problem seems to be keeping people. I have found that most people I meet seem to have no idea that we all have callings to minister. Go to church on Sunday, feed me for an hour, and I'm good 'till next week! That's not being a Christian.

From what I've heard, we've gotten away from some of the legalism, such as make up, jewelry, and other outward trappngs. Maybe these turned people away in the past.

[Anne and Dwayne Hood]

Cease your fears, and trust. I have been in the COTN over 68 years. We have always feared, or been concerned to a certain extent, about some of the things some seem to worry about. The word entire doesn't make us what we are. If someone come to Christ at a Nazarene altar, they may end up in another church--maybe the one they were raised in, or the one their grandparents went to. We may not maintain them in our statistics, but they are maintained in God's statistics.
I spent my life as a pastor's wife, many times worrying about things, that had nothing to do with getting to heaven, or getting others there. But, those things just do not seem as important now, that we are not having to report them all of the time. I also, have more time to deditate on such things--things that will stand. Maybe, you young people could start thinking in terms of souls, whether they stay at the church you pastor or not.
Whether we get praise and/or recognition is really not one of the things "that will stand." That always seemed to be Dwayne's personality, and way of thinking, while I was climbing the walls. HE would say, "Honey, you are always doing more for God, than it looks like."
If pastors were allowed time at assembly, they could tell some of the things happening in their pastorate that were really the "things that stand" in the long run.

Just today, as I was thinking about some terrible things that happen in our country. This was brought to my mind: Apparently, there are far more Christians in US than we realize, or God may have already said, "That's enough." Even if He did not come, He could allow destruction to come our way.

[Jeremy D. Scott]

Any change to the statement (and conviction) that "Scripture is our rule of both faith and practice." By that I mean any attempt to place tradition/community or anything else on par with Scripture in terms of authority.

I hope the discussions currently taking place on this issue in our institutions do not continue to begin with name-calling ("fundamentalist") and end with the intellectually dishonest claims that John Wesley himself considered tradition to be on par with Scripture. His own writings scream the contrary.

What authority gives scripture its authority?

[Scott Sherwood]

What authority gives scripture its authority?

Jesus. He called the apostles and gave them authority. The 4th century church canonized those writings it deemed to be of apostolic origin, not the writings it liked the best.

The notion that the church by recognizing the authority of Scripture is somehow exercising authority OVER Scripture is logically and historically untenable, in my opinion.

[Hans Deventer]

What are some of your "fears" concerning the future of the Church of the Nazarene?

That we may improve on the formulation of the doctrine of sanctification, but lose the experience. That doesn't mean that we don't need to do the former, but it does mean it is the latter that really matters.

[Ian Gentles]

I think the moves for change seem to be in our universities and i doubt rhe grass roots are aware of them or even care., when was there a mass sale of manuals lost ;) My fear would be quakity of person our colleges/seminary, are turning out for the ministry are they going to be spiritual of just intillectuals?

[Dennis Bratcher]

What are some of your "fears" concerning the future of the Church of the Nazarene?

That we will change nothing and become irrelevant. Or that we will change everything -- and become irrelevant.

Dennis B.

[Brad Mercer]

That whatever we change or retain, we simply will not be a transformative agent in society like we were in the days of Wesley and the American holiness movement, nor will great numbers of us be individually transformed to any remarkable degree.

Brad

[Ian Gentles]

That whatever we change or retain, we simply will not be a transformative agent in society like we were in the days of Wesley and the American holiness movement, nor will great numbers of us be individually transformed to any remarkable degree.

Brad

Guess we lost our oumph ?

[Anne and Dwayne Hood]

Why should we not be a transforming agent in the world? Don't we have access to the same power that descended on the disciples on the day of Pentecost? The things that happen for good to souls in the day and age we live in now, may be different, but it could still be transforming, so far as their soul's salvation is concerned. Now, think about it! Whose ability are we limiting? Christ, or our lack of faith. We see souls mightily transformed in the area where we live.
We had a lady stand and testify this morning about what has happened in her son's life. He is between 35-40, and has battled a drug habit for years. He was in the church when we went there in February of 1989...a teen. His dad had a sudden heart attack and died. They had began going to church in Memphis at that time, considering that they did live there. Even before his death in about 1990, his dad would have to get Kevin out of jail. Then, his older brother killed himself, and left a note that he could just not take his dad's place. His mother was so overwheomed caring for the four children she had been left with, that she did not realize that her oldest son had been trying to carry the load of taking daddy's place.
Kevin has been in and out of the Savation Army's housing for addicts for years. He has been in the Baltimore area about two years. He is staying away from drugs enough to remember to call his mother quite often now. He has gained up to 190 pounds. We just had to give the Lord a resounding clap. Others in the church are praying for such results for their loved ones, as we have prayed for Kevin for years.
Just last Sunday, the pastor had Dwayne to lead in prayer for a lady representing her alcohoic brother. I have aleady told this, but it needs to be told again. The lady called Monday or Tuesday and wanted to speak with Bro. Hood. He told me what she told him.
She reminded him that he had prayed for someone to be sent to "Butch" that would be able to help him. A man came to him, and took him to the Rose of Sharon Campground, where they have a place for alcoholics. His bed and food will be furnished, and he will only be responsible for his toilitries.
For years I have tried to tell people about this little church that is "Big" on prayer.
Next month, will be two years since Dwayne retired from nearly 23 years of ministry there. The pastor (black) wanted us to come back. He says that we are an asset.
God is no respecter of persons. What he did long ago, he can do today, if we open up the needed avenue for Him.

[Bob Evans]

Ann

I think Brad was saying his biggest fear was that if we change some things we will stop being a transforming agent. I saw it the same way you did until I read it twice.

[Roland Hearn]

My greatest fear echoes that of Bob Evans, Brad, Dennis and Hans. I add this to the mix. That we will continue on without a genuine vision and with a ever increasing willingness on the part of leadership to replace vision with programs and bureaucracy. As long as we allow building programs and budgets to stand in the place of vision we are done. The reason that we bring so many in and loose so many is that there is no grand dream anymore to match our grand theology.
The place you get a vision from, however, is not from marketing strategies it is from divine encounters and so my biggest fear is we will allow the mundane to continue to replace the sublime.

[Hans Deventer]

That we will change nothing and become irrelevant. Or that we will change everything -- and become irrelevant.

Dennis B.

Which leaves us with the question what must be changed and what must be retained!

[Gina Stevenson]

'Lot of good tho'ts to mull over here in this thread .......

[Brad Mercer]

Ann

I think Brad was saying his biggest fear was that if we change some things we will stop being a transforming agent.

I actually think we stopped being a transforming agent decades ago.

100-250 years ago, we were a transforming agent. Proto-communist revolution was averted in England by John Wesley and the early Methodists. Timothy Smith wrote in "Revivalism and Reform" about the way Wesleyans impacted society in the US in the 1830's and '40's. He could have written a sequel on the impact of the Wesleyan Holiness movement in the 80 years after that. They led successful movements for prison reform, reform in the care of the mentally ill, the anti-slavery movement, prohibition, women's suffrage and more

People in large numbers experienced entire sanctification in amazing, extraordinary ways and testified that it gave them a degree of joy and love and freedom that stayed with them for the rest of their lives, and others who knew them well, confirmed that testimony. The Wesleyans represented a large percentage of the population of the United States.

None of those things is true anymore. We are growing barely, if at all in the United States numerically, and actually shrinking as a percentage of the population. Our efforts at social reform tend to be either ineffective or reactionary or both.

We are no longer a significant agent of transformation, either individually or socially.

If people don't say of us: "Behold how they love one another", they aren't saying anything worth tithing to. We need a real vision again, born of real, transforming encounters with God by large numbers of Nazarenes or we're just another bureaucracy that once fulfilled a grand purpose, but now deserves to die. That reflects my greatest fear, and I'm not sure it's really adequately addressed by debates about hymns vs. choruses or contemporary vs. liturgical.

Brad

[Martijn van Beveren]

My greatest fear echoes that of Bob Evans, Brad, Dennis and Hans. I add this to the mix. That we will continue on without a genuine vision and with a ever increasing willingness on the part of leadership to replace vision with programs and bureaucracy. As long as we allow building programs and budgets to stand in the place of vision we are done. The reason that we bring so many in and loose so many is that there is no grand dream anymore to match our grand theology.
The place you get a vision from, however, is not from marketing strategies it is from divine encounters and so my biggest fear is we will allow the mundane to continue to replace the sublime.

So, in order to get fueled up again, we(CotN) should be willing to dream and think big. That is to say: God's love is enough, no matter what. Let's love/tell the world!!! Is this kind of thinking in anyway present in the general board?:fun10
Are they more concerned with the numbers than with making dreams that we should be loving ALL peope?
We should hear from them a clear vision with a main theme. I hardly hear anything when it comes down to general board announcements. Just on Naznet.
A broad vision and a radical call for inner change towards the Love of God should make things more clear towards, regions, fields, districts, churches, pastors and congregation.

IF they are more busy with fighting "fearsome" tendencies, filling up office space, than stating the above, then we should fear a dead church...:eek:
:fav01
IF this is the case then there should be an emergency call given out toward the addressed party.

I wouldn't want to give up in any way on the wesleyan heritidge! I love the church and what it stands for. So, for me it is a cause worth fighting for!
:bannana

Marty

[Ian Gentles]

Yes it would be nice for grass roots to hear more often what general board is doing and saying.

[Hans Deventer]

Yes it would be nice for grass roots to hear more often what general board is doing and saying.

The General Board? I'd be more interested in the Board of General Superintendents.
Anyway, you can read their latest report to the General Board here (http://www.nazarene.org/ministries/superintendents/gbreport07/display.aspx)

To quote the last part:

A Fresh Anointing

In the busyness of life it is too easy to take our focus off the things of God. The
calendar, travel, well-intentioned activities, and problems begin ruling our lives. But as
the late E. Stanley Jones noted, “What gets your attention, gets you.”
Spiritual leaders face this reality as much as anyone, maybe more.
The Church of the Nazarene began with an anointing from God. Are we at a place
where we need a fresh anointing? “‘Not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit, says
the Lord Almighty’” (Zechariah 4:6, NIV).
What could a fresh anointing do for our church?
• Focus worship to glorify God
• Expand our horizons of opportunity
• Help us see the harvest more clearly
• Revitalize our ministries
• Add fervency to our preaching and teaching
• Ignite the holy fire of God to burn in our souls

As a Board we confess to being needy people.

We close this General Board report with each general superintendent desiring a fresh
anointing. Dr. John Bowling, president of the General Board, will lead us as our Board
gathers together.

We ask that you join with us in a time of prayer that God’s will may be done in each of
us and in the life of the Church of the Nazarene.

Respectfully submitted,

Board of General Superintendents
James H. Diehl
Paul G. Cunningham
Jerry D. Porter
Jesse C. Middendorf
Nina G. Gunter
J. K. Warrick

Prepared and presented by Nina G. Gunter

[Ian Gentles]

Sorry i meant General Superitendants.

[Hans Deventer]

Sorry I meant General Superintendents.

I knew, I was just teasing you :basic05

[Ian Gentles]

I knew, I was just teasing you :basic05

ROFLOL

[David Pettigrew]

That we will change nothing and become irrelevant. Or that we will change everything -- and become irrelevant.

Dennis B.

I could not agree more, but this is exactly what I see happening. We fail to change the things that must be changed, and change the things that don't matter.

[Billy Cox]

I actually think we stopped being a transforming agent decades ago.

100-250 years ago, we were a transforming agent. Proto-communist revolution was averted in England by John Wesley and the early Methodists. Timothy Smith wrote in "Revivalism and Reform" about the way Wesleyans impacted society in the US in the 1830's and '40's. He could have written a sequel on the impact of the Wesleyan Holiness movement in the 80 years after that. They led successful movements for prison reform, reform in the care of the mentally ill, the anti-slavery movement, prohibition, women's suffrage and more

People in large numbers experienced entire sanctification in amazing, extraordinary ways and testified that it gave them a degree of joy and love and freedom that stayed with them for the rest of their lives, and others who knew them well, confirmed that testimony. The Wesleyans represented a large percentage of the population of the United States.

None of those things is true anymore. We are growing barely, if at all in the United States numerically, and actually shrinking as a percentage of the population. Our efforts at social reform tend to be either ineffective or reactionary or both.

We are no longer a significant agent of transformation, either individually or socially.

If people don't say of us: "Behold how they love one another", they aren't saying anything worth tithing to. We need a real vision again, born of real, transforming encounters with God by large numbers of Nazarenes or we're just another bureaucracy that once fulfilled a grand purpose, but now deserves to die. That reflects my greatest fear, and I'm not sure it's really adequately addressed by debates about hymns vs. choruses or contemporary vs. liturgical.

Brad


I am somewhat puzzled by the angst I detect in this thread. One would hardly guess that we as a denomination are barely 100 years old. Perhaps the heady idealism is gone, but does that mean that we are preparing to lay down for our organizational dirt-nap?

Could it also be that the declining denominations that we fear we are becoming like are not just social clubs expending oxygen as we sometimes suspect.

I ask myself the question, where IS the Holy Spirit moving and catalyzing change beyond the walls of the local church? If it isn't in the Church of the Nazarene, where is it? Once we answer that question, do we imitate their methods, or do we join arms with them? (Or do we throw rocks at them?)

My 'Naz' fear is that we would become so pre-occupied with our rose-colored perception of our history that we fail to see the opportunities right in front of us.

Even so, I'm not expending much energy on this fear since all ministry is local...and I can actually light a candle there.

[Greg Gates]

My fear is that we will miss connecting to this generation as we missed connecting to the last generation.

You'd think with all the stats showing how irrelevant our churches have been to their community's population over the last decades, that we'd be more interested in creating something this generation could resonate with. But... no.

We'd rather continue playing the "my ways are more spiritually rewarding than your ways" game without realizing no one wants to play with us.

[David Pettigrew]

I could not agree more, but this is exactly what I see happening. We fail to change the things that must be changed, and change the things that don't matter.

Dr Bratcher's statement just keeps rolling around in my little brain.

According to the stats available from the nazarene research site, the fastest growing religious group between 1990 and 2000 in the thirteen counties that make up the Dallas district was the Roman Catholic church. They added 500,000 members, growing over 300%!!! This in the midst of all the priesthood abuse scandals.

Did they do this through the latest and greatest growth program, or by changing their worship style? I don't think so. In my opinion, they offer heritage, community, and a familiar place to land in a culture with increasingly less of these things.

Now, I can hear someone screaming that most of this growth is due to immigration. That is partly true, but even so, how many Nazarenes do we lose b/c a member moves to different part of the country, walks into the local Nazarene church, and finds it nothing like the one they left? There's something to be said for consistency.

At the same time, I have many anecdotes of growth in the RC church due to conversion from completely irrelevant protestant churches, including huge independent "cutting edge" ones. People will choose to be something rather than nothing every time.

It would behoove us to consider the impact of the changes we make on community life if we wish to fulfill the mission God has given us as a tribe.

[David Rhone]

All of the points made in this forum are valid and each of them relate to the condition of our churches. This is actually good newsbecause problems do not get solved unless they are first recognized.

The Master's Plan of making disciples is, I believe, God's gift to the Church of the Nazarene for this day and time. It is a Vision, not a program. It has nothing to do with marketing or anything else developed by human ingenuity.

The Master's Plan is directly derived from Scripture. It is built on the model of Jesus pouring His life into twelve disciples and the mulitiplication of disciples that followed His ministry. Discipleship is the key and has been the missing ingredient within our denomination.

Do you know of any Nazarene church that retains the majority of people it brings to Christ? Neither do I. Doing "church" the way that Jesus did it, by making disciples who will make disciples is the fulfillment of The Great Commission and of His instruction for you and I to produce "fruit that will last" (John 15:16).

The first International Master's Plan Conference will be held in Cali, Columbia, Nov 1-4. Dr. Jerry Porter is the primary speaker. You can find information at www.nazareno.net. Hit the key for English if you do not speak Spanish.

Hop on board, folks. This Vision of actually doing what Jesus told us to do, "make disciples" is exciting. Revival has come to my old, broken down and beaten up church. Revival! What a concept!

Dave Rhone
Senior Pastor
The Master's Plan Church of the Nazarene

[William Hunter]

This is an interesting thread, especially in the context of what I read of Bresee and his prayer life; Acts 6:4; and the things I saw and heard as a young boy growing up in the church. At 60 yrs. of age now, I look back and remember the strong emphasis on prayer that I saw in my local church and the fact that people were saved nearly every Sunday and they stayed in the church. I remember being taken to dist. missionary conv. and finding the strong focus on prayer, and the same at DA. But today, I go to DA and hear lip service pd. at best at true convert growth, pastor's reports, the few we have, extemely limited as they tell what God has done in a couple of people's lives in their church that year.

On the other hand, I see the extremely strong emphasis on paying budgets and most of the DA time taken up with financial concerns. We pay our budgets here and I have no problem with budgets except district budgets that are way out of balance, but I found DA this year disappointing the more I have thought about it. The majority of the time was taken up with financial pleas, financial reports, etc. The one bright spot was our dist. wold missions pres. in his report. That was just outstanding and right on our mission to reach our world, including the people across the street from where we all live. I think we have seen our focus shift over the years. We need a reconnection with God that brings passion for the cause of Christ instead of all the deadness we see in churches based on the lack of converts and new disciples. I still hear Jesus saying to us, and the principle as never changed: "ou will seek Me and find Me, WHEN you seek Me with ALL your heart." I'm not sure we as a denomination, and the individuals who make it up, remember how to do this anymore. Until we cry out to God in depths most in our church cannot even remember, and once again see the DNA of the church being prayer, I'm not sure we will be successful in America and Canada in reaching lost people or decipling them.

How long has it been since we have experienced the fullillment of Eph. 3:21. We do not seem to live in the fulfillment of Heb. 11:6: "He rewqards those who earnestly seek Him." It seems we most often seek our focus, financial gain, when that would be a result of this verse, rather than making it the focus of our existence.

Anyway, just some thoughts I have among others. I'm trying to disciple my people into powerful people of prayer. All the rest will be a result. The starting point in prayer---at least that's the point I get from the Book of Acts, watching Jesus in the Gospels, and in church history in the really powerful manisfestions of God.

[Ian Gentles]

My experiance also brother, my old denomination seem to put fists things first, and that was prayer and seeking power in soul saving.

[Rance Gould]

Greetings

To begin with. I am a Christian first, then a long time member of the Church of The Nazarene and a student of Wesleyan doctrine and thinking. I'm not really a theologen because of those words that are hard to pronounce. Anyway.

I have a question that you folks might help me with. This may apply only to smaller churches that can't afford a salary that attracts older and more experienced pastors able to preach a genuine message on sanctification. If such churches can afford only one revival a year, you may hear holiness messages for 3-4 days plus those preached at camp meeting. Not everyone is able to attend camp meeting, so both young and old simply don't hear teaching/preaching on our core doctrine very often. How can our great denomination expect people to receive second blessing holiness if it's only preached once in a while? What I fear is the gradual decline of emphasis on holiness preaching resulting in our inability to connect with spiritual needs of the saved and unsaved. God forbid! Is it too late to reverse a trend toward that?

Earlier this year, Dr. Frank Moore's book, "The Power to Be Free, Discovering Life in The Spirit of Christ" was widely studied in our churches. Dr.J.K. Warrick sounded an alarm in his forward to the book when he wrote, "My friend, Frank Moore, gently guides us to rediscover some very old truths that seem new again because of years of neglect."

I ask, why is there not a priority in our institutions of higher learning to make sure young preachers at least know how to preach sanctification, whether they are sanctified or not? Many of you are aware that Uncle Bud Robinson did just that. Your replies will be appreciated.

Thank you Brother Christian for beginning this discussion.

Blessings to all,

Rance gould

[David Rhone]

Would you like some cheese with that whine?

For the sake of the Kingdom, stop pining for the "good old days", get off your backsides and do what Jesus commanded us to do! Make disciples!

Suggestion #1---spend less time blogging and complaining and get trained to do what Jesus commanded.

[Rance Gould]

Thank you Bro. Rhone. My pastor and church board may have already heard of what you offer. I will ask them. Blessings to you

[Mike Schutz]

Would you like some cheese with that whine?

For the sake of the Kingdom, stop pining for the "good old days", get off your backsides and do what Jesus commanded us to do! Make disciples!

Suggestion #1---spend less time blogging and complaining and get trained to do what Jesus commanded.

David,
Some of these folks are very much involved in making disciples - I'm sure you are aware that it is possible to do so apart from involvement in the program you are advocating - and do not deserve to be chastised in such a manner.

For this pastor and educator, in order for me to be the least bit interested in your program, I need to see its fruit. First and foremost would be a winsome spirit from those who claim to be experts in pointing me to a better way of pointing others to Christ.

If Jerry Porter supports it I'll listen, because I know him and have seen the fruit of the Spirit in his life. I don't know you. Thus far, based upon what you've posted here, all I've read is a sales pitch intermingled with criticism and sarcasm.

Let's start over.

Tell us, in specific terms, what we will learn and what will happen if we participate.

And keep in mind, it is just possible that some of the folks who are posting here are just as intelligent and just as spiritual as you are, and deserve to be spoken to with respect.

[Ryan Scott]

I ask, why is there not a priority in our institutions of higher learning to make sure young preachers at least know how to preach sanctification, whether they are sanctified or not?

I'm pretty sure you have to be sanctified to even get a local minister's license, so at least the experience is not an issue, for the most part.

[Bob Evans]

Well said Mike. Having sat through a district assembly presided over by Dr Porter I am definately interested in the program. We are having the gentleman [I think it's Culbertson] who is adapting it to the church of the Nazarene at the fall ministers and mates in Michigan.

Dave there are a million descipleship plans out there. We use navigators at the mission.
Please tell me why in a reasonable way why this plan would work in my context. I have 22 recovering alcoholics living in an institutional setting that I am preparing to live as fully devoted followers of Christ. I only have a year. What would you suggest.

[Ryan Scott]

The Master's Plan is directly derived from Scripture. It is built on the model of Jesus pouring His life into twelve disciples and the mulitiplication of disciples that followed His ministry.


While I don't necessarily disagree with the notion that we need more emphasis on "keeping people saved" over "getting them saved," because I think that's an important element. I do have to take issue with the idea that any "plan" we come up with is directly derived from scripture. Certainly any number of scriptural principles make sense in different contexts and within different communities.

After all, even if it was "the Master's" plan, his disciples abandoned it pretty quickly in Acts when they appointed other people to ministry so they could devote their time to prayer and the scriptures.

I also wonder about the marketing plan of calling it "The Master's Plan" when Kirk Cameron and his crazy pastor have this thing with a similar name (The Way of the Master) out there that I wouldn't want to be associated with in any way. Just a thought. What was wrong with G-12? That was pretty unique.

[Billy Cox]

At the same time, I have many anecdotes of growth in the RC church due to conversion from completely irrelevant protestant churches, including huge independent "cutting edge" ones. People will choose to be something rather than nothing every time.



I suspect that cutting-edge, seeker sensitive churches' success stories are typically people who develop an appetite for evangelism, while others develop an appetite to go deeper - even deeper than the programming that is believer-oriented.

That latter group are good prospects for Roman Catholicism - especially if Catholicism's emphasis on compassionate ministry appeals to their new found relationship with God.

You can't always predict what will change in a person's life when they encounter the living Christ.

[Scott Daniels]

1. That we will lose our young (not to hipper traditions) but to secularism and to traditions that take the transformation of all creation more seriously than we currently do. (Although the Kingdom will be just fine).

2. That we will lose our best intellectuals. (Again, the Kingdom will be fine).

3. That traditionalism will win over tradition.

[Dennis Bratcher]

According to the stats available from the nazarene research site, the fastest growing religious group between 1990 and 2000 in the thirteen counties that make up the Dallas district was the Roman Catholic church. They added 500,000 members, growing over 300%!!! This in the midst of all the priesthood abuse scandals.

Did they do this through the latest and greatest growth program, or by changing their worship style? I don't think so. In my opinion, they offer heritage, community, and a familiar place to land in a culture with increasingly less of these things.

Now, I can hear someone screaming that most of this growth is due to immigration. That is partly true, but even so, how many Nazarenes do we lose b/c a member moves to different part of the country, walks into the local Nazarene church, and finds it nothing like the one they left? There's something to be said for consistency.

At the same time, I have many anecdotes of growth in the RC church due to conversion from completely irrelevant protestant churches, including huge independent "cutting edge" ones. People will choose to be something rather than nothing every time.

It would behoove us to consider the impact of the changes we make on community life if we wish to fulfill the mission God has given us as a tribe.

Having lived in San Antonio, I do think the immigration issue is a far more potent factor in RC growth than you allow. I have seen the same phenomenon in Wyoming and Utah, and in central and southern California. For example, St. Elizabeth’s in inner city Oakland is a thriving church yet is almost exclusively Hispanic and other ethnic groups.

However, having lived in several states the past three years I think your other two points are valid as well. In one context, we attended a Lutheran Church because all of the Nazarene churches in the area (and there were several) were exclusively into the rock-band stand-for-30-minutes-clapping contemporary worship (one service I was in recently went 40 minutes). On the other hand just a couple of weeks ago I attended a Nazarene Church in OKC whose service, including music and preaching (complete with the old-time “preacher voice” sermon), were straight out of the 50s and 60s. Yet, it opened with community recital of the Nicene (not Apostle’s) Creed.

The lack of any commonality will prevail as long as we take a merchandising approach to the church, and as long as we allow pop religious culture to determine our concerns and practices (as I and others have said before, I think that reflects a lack of leadership in terms of vision, instead settling for management). That is why I am increasingly convinced that among all our attempts to be relevant (which we need to do!) on some level we must begin to incorporate some form of shared liturgy into worship rather than trying to appease X or Y geners (or boomers or busters).

As far as choosing to be something, I think it relates directly to relevance. That cannot be manipulated by externals like forms of worship. However, I am convinced that forms of worship and other externals like time and (horrors) financial commitment can and often do reflect theological values. And I think most people, even younger people, are really looking for content to their lives, beyond all the trappings of pop culture. They can pick up fairly quickly whether there is depth or not.

And amid all of our emphasis on “seekers,” which we should have (how? is the open question), we dare not forget that our God-given task is also discipleship, spiritual growth, and nurture. If we merchandise the Church to too narrow a clientele, we may find that we can only attract those whom we have targeted and the rest (usually the majority) will go elsewhere. As a denomination we cannot afford to be only a birthing center for young Christians (although I see little evidence that we are highly successful at that). Our task as the Church is also to nurture people in the Faith and bring them to “maturity.” I have talked to way too many dozens of Nazarenes who had to go to another church tradition to find much avenue to grow beyond spiritual infancy.

I think we are failing to be the Church if our primary function is only to serve as a spiritual nursery and then send people off to the Catholics or Presbyterians or Lutherans to grow spiritually (which in the grand scheme of things, that is in terms of the Kingdom, is perfectly OK!). It's not about the numbers. But it is about being what we are called and mandated by God to be.

Grace and Peace,

Dennis Bratcher

[David Rhone]

Here are the highlights of "The Master's Plan", currently being implemented in Nazarene churches across the country and around the world.

1. It is a Vision of growth and evangelism based on the principle of twelves as used by God in the creation of Israel and by Jesus in the birth of the Church Age. In this Vision of multiplication, the pastor invests his/her life in twelve who are trained to produce fruit that will last. These twelve are comitted to having twelves of their own and assume the role of "lay pastors" within the church, remaining accountible to the Pastor. (Some pastors will never be able to release this kind of authority to others. In those cases, this Vision has no chance of success).

2. These "lay pastors" build cell groups of up to 12 people. The primary purpose of these cell groups is evangelism. This marks the difference between these cell groups and everything else we know about small groups. Our purpose is evangelism.

3. This process is not a quick fix to anything. It takes time---a lot of time. Making disciples is hard work and making disciples who make other disciples is even harder. But, it is the calling of Jesus.

4. At the heart of this Vision is a weekend event called "Encounter Retreat". The Encounter is 8 or 9 sessions in length. What happens in an Encounter is exactly what used to happen in the two week long revivals of years ago---the kind in which I found Christ. I have been involved in 10 Encounter Retreats over the past 18 months and revival has broken out in every one of them.

There is much more to this but let me answer some of the specific questions posed by some of you.

1. This Vision was born in Bogata, Columbia in the heart of a Pentecostal pastor of a small church. Today, that church ministers to 400,000+ every Sunday. He named the Vision "G-12" which refers to a government system of 12 within the church.

2. Our Nazarene pastor in Cali, Columbia became aware of this Vision and visited Bogata. The Cali church was running a consistent 31 for several years. Pastor Adelberto began G-12 in his Naz and quickly grew to a few hundred. I was there with a group of 13 other Naz pastors in Dec 05. They had grown to 6,000. On a December Sunday, I sat in the 2nd row of an evangelistic event they had in an old sports arena. There were 13,000+ there. Dr. Louis Bussle preached in Spanish. Right at 1,000 came forward to receive Christ. Dr. Bussell suggested that if we take this Vision to the US, we call it The Master's Plan as we adapt it to our doctrines.

3. My wife was in Cali with another group in March 07. The church of 6,000 had grown to 8,000 and is currently adding 500 people each and every month.

All of these facts are easibly documented. These are true numbers.

My church is 87 years old. It's the church inwhich I grew up, where my father pastored for 17 years. Dad built this church and when he left, it was running in excess of 500, had a school of 300 kids and led the Southern California District in many categories.

When I retured to be its pastor, things had changed. The community had changed. San Bernardino had the highest rate of violent crime of any city in California and the zip code in which our church resides has the highest rate of those crimes within the city. Whores did their business in our parking lot over night, drug dealers sold their poison on the lawn in front of my office and drunks slept it off on our doorstep and competing gangs left bullet holes in our stained glass.

A group of about 75 people remained in our church. They were mostly white Anglos, going to church in a neighborhood that was 55% Hispanic and 35% African-American. They were just hanging on, waiting for the Lord to take them Home.

The Holy Spirit clearly spoke to me on the way home from Cali. I listened and did as He instructed, diving head first into the deep end of the Master's Plan pool. This was an extremely big change for us and a clear proof of His leadership was the fact that not one of our people objected to chaning the DNA of their church.

Today, 19 months into this Vision, we have new life and a promising future. We are in our second wave of leadership training that will take us to 30 cell groups as of next April. None of the people in the current leadership class even knew we exisited as a church four years ago.

Some of you got my point----Complaining about the present and pining for the past accomplishes nothing for the Kingdom. Jesus told us to "make disciples". We are not commanded to get people saved. Getting them saved is only the first step. If we leave them there, with no intentional discipleship training, we will lose them. In that case, we better hope the 5 Pointers are right!

I will be in Ohio this week doing some training for a group of interested pastors. God is richly blessing this Vision.

If you want to know more about this church-changing Vision of growth and evangelism, send me an e-mail.

[Bob Evans]

Dave

Brainstorm with me. Does the vision have any relevence in a rescue mission institutional drug rehab sense where we ask peopel to trade their addictions for Jesus. I have then for 12 to 18 months. Any thoughts about applying Masters Plan principals to my context.

bob

[David Rhone]

Bob--

Certainly the principles of building disciples applies. Given the limited time you have to work with, let's think about an adaptation of this model.

Starting with those who show evidence of being fruit that will last, I would seek to train them to be disciple makers. My goal would be to equip them to do the work that I am planted there to do, investing in them the training and authority to make disciples.

I would like to think about this more. If you have the time, feel free to call me. My cell is (909) 771-9420. I'd be happy if I could somehow be of help to you.

[Ian Gentles]

Making disciples isnt easy, been in ministry and evangelism long years with little results :(
But back to church, what are we bringing folks into, what doctrine? I do think we need to advance and clarify our concept of holiness and adjust it to 21st centuary.

[David Rhone]

Making disciples isnt easy, been in ministry and evangelism long years with little results :(
But back to church, what are we bringing folks into, what doctrine? I do think we need to advance and clarify our concept of holiness and adjust it to 21st centuary.

Paraphrasing Henry Blackabee in "Experiencing God"....

Don't try to start some new thing and ask God to bless it. Instead, find where He is working and jump on board.

God is using The Master's Plan of Evangelism to revive and grow the Church of the Nazarene.

[Greg Gates]

...we attended a Lutheran Church because all of the Nazarene churches in the area (and there were several) were exclusively into the rock-band stand-for-30-minutes-clapping contemporary worship (one service I was in recently went 40 minutes).

Why would the style of worship matter? Do the Nazarene pastors believe that this style is helping them reach their community?

Why is it more commendable for a Nazarene to go to a Lutheran church that does church one way than to partner with a Nazarene pastor who believes that another way is more effective?

[Ryan Scott]

Because people's definition of "effective" is very different.

I don't suspect Dennis is speaking strictly of musical selection. I've been in more congregations that simply copy their service from what the big congregation down the street does than take any time to critically assess how to incorporate all elements of worship into a service.

I'm no fan of the constant standing and sitting of a traditional liturgical service, but Id rather go some place where they've obviously thought through their service on a theological level than sit through a more pleasant to the ear service that seems thrown together almost at random.

It doesn't take a lot of discernment to figure out which congregations take their worship seriously and which are just perpetuating a tradition. And it has nothing to do with their style of music or the instruments they use.

[Rance Gould]

Making disciples isnt easy, been in ministry and evangelism long years with little results :(
But back to church, what are we bringing folks into, what doctrine? I do think we need to advance and clarify our concept of holiness and adjust it to 21st centuary.

That's OK, as long we are in line with God's concept of holiness. Anything less will be disasterous. God and His word hasn,t changed. Only modern man and his trying to figure out God and the little boxes they wish they could keep Him. Sin is sin in any age and there's only one solution, full salvation found only in the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit!

[Dennis Bratcher]

Why would the style of worship matter? Do the Nazarene pastors believe that this style is helping them reach their community? ?

I've written a lot on this in the past, so just a short response. I think "style" reflects a lot more than personal preferences. For me worship is about encountering God in the spoken and acted Word. It is that content that defines worship far more than "style" ever could. However, in my experience, some "styles" or forms, on both ends of the spectrum, have more style than content.

I do not know what the motives are. If the goal is reaching the community, then I'm not sure those churches are succeeding in their goal (stats say no). I do know several churches that have been quite successful in attracting people with that approach. But then I know of one Baptist Church that grew from 200 to 6,000 by maintaining a very traditional Baptist/revivalist style with only moderately updated music and no worship team. So, again, it is probably not so much about style as it is about content, and the possibility of connecting with God beyond emotion and feeling that is encouraged.

Why is it more commendable for a Nazarene to go to a Lutheran church that does church one way than to partner with a Nazarene pastor who believes that another way is more effective?

I did not suggest that it was "commendable." It was simply a statement of fact to illustrate a point (the desire for some stable and shared elements of worship between churches). Why? Because it takes two to "partner."

Grace and Peace,

Dennis Bratcher

[Ian Gentles]

Yes we need depth, anglican church we attend at times, has grown massivly. Preaching is ok but not great, they are very low church, but they grow, no known reason known?

[Dennis Bratcher]

I ask, why is there not a priority in our institutions of higher learning to make sure young preachers at least know how to preach sanctification, whether they are sanctified or not? Many of you are aware that Uncle Bud Robinson did just that. Your replies will be appreciated.

Which of the Nazarene institutions of higher learning did you attend that did not do this? (I've taught at eight of them.)

And the idea of preaching sanctification without experiencing it is a little like a non-parent single trying to give advice to a couple on how best to deal with their two-year-old!

Grace and Peace,

Dennis B.

[Ian Gentles]

Institutions cant force sanctification they can only educate?

[Greg Gates]

I do know several churches that have been quite successful in attracting people with that approach. But then I know of one Baptist Church that grew from 200 to 6,000 by maintaining a very traditional Baptist/revivalist style

I doubt you're only aware of several. I'm aware of several in my small town and I can name 10 off the top of my head that are reaching 20,000 a week "with that approach."

Maybe people with sore knees have difficulty being aware of what God is using. That's been my experience.

Your baptist example is quite impressive. It's one in a million.

Do you think music style is relevant to the quality of the discipleship?

[Anne and Dwayne Hood]

One of you mentioned Louie Bustle. Dwayne, Tom Cook and Michael Ross were in school with him. I have heard him and Ellen at a Missionary service in Memphis, but have not actually heard him preach.
I ask him at M3 where Ellen was. He said she was at home working to pay the morgage. Ha
It always pleased his father-in-law Bro. Coy Philips that I remembered the names and birthdays of his grandchildren. Their children have a Gody heritage. They have recently lost their Grandmother Philips.
Then, back to the discussion. We may plan the service. But we need room for the Holy Spirit to intervene whenever He pleases. His plans are always best.

[Dennis Bratcher]

I doubt you're only aware of several. I'm aware of several in my small town and I can name 10 off the top of my head that are reaching 20,000 a week "with that approach."

Maybe people with sore knees have difficulty being aware of what God is using. That's been my experience.

Your baptist example is quite impressive. It's one in a million.

Do you think music style is relevant to the quality of the discipleship?

It seems your experience is far more extensive than mine. Thanks for the comments.

Grace and Peace,

Dennis Bratcher

[David Pettigrew]

I doubt you're only aware of several. I'm aware of several in my small town and I can name 10 off the top of my head that are reaching 20,000 a week "with that approach."

Maybe people with sore knees have difficulty being aware of what God is using. That's been my experience.

Your baptist example is quite impressive. It's one in a million.

Do you think music style is relevant to the quality of the discipleship?

What does this even mean?

I pastor a traditional church. We have Sunday school every Sunday at 9:30. We have Sunday evening worship at 6:00. We have prayer meeting on Wednesday nights, with missionary meeting the second Wednesday of every month. We take up an alabaster offering twice a year. We sing hymns to the accompaniment of a piano and organ. I preach straight out of the lectionary. It just doesn't get much more traditional than us. And yet, we grew 5% across the board last year and we're on track to show 25% growth across the board this year.

If you don't think the traditional church can build the kingdom, then you're not paying attention to what's going on in the world today. The "sore knees" comment was less than gracious, and your comments to Dennis come across as less than humble. One man's opinion.

[Greg Gates]

I pastor a traditional church.

From looking at your avatar I never would have guessed. Just messing with you.

I'm sorry for being ungracious and less than humble. I'm much worse in person.

I wanted to participate in the discussion because I felt Mr. Bratcher was misrepresenting reality.

By the way, congratulations on growing your church. I read recently that only 2% of churches grow by 5% three years in a row. Keep up the pace and you'll be at the very top.

[David Pettigrew]

From looking at your avatar I never would have guessed. Just messing with you.

I'm sorry for being ungracious and less than humble. I'm much worse in person.

I wanted to participate in the discussion because I felt Mr. Bratcher was misrepresenting reality.

By the way, congratulations on growing your church. I read recently that only 2% of churches grow by 5% three years in a row. Keep up the pace and you'll be at the very top.

You can ask Hans about my avatar. It makes it much easier to disagree with me than the previous picture of my eighteen month old daughter in a bunny suit!

I often say that if you ever met me in person, you'd never put me together with my "naznet" personality.

No way did I grow my church! God has chosen to move in spite of me. We have been focusing intently on removing barriers to growth. We use a tool called the Natural Church Development survey that has helped us a lot with this.

Have a great day!
dp

[John Kennedy]

Regarding your avatar, isn't that J.O. Mcclurkan (sp/)? Any particular reason for that?

[Ryan Scott]

Regarding your avatar, isn't that J.O. Mcclurkan (sp/)? Any particular reason for that?


I recall a conversation not too long ago about that. I'm not sure the specifics, but didn't Hans supply you with that photo?

[Anne and Dwayne Hood]

It seems to me that David Pettigrew may have McClurkan as his avitar.
This really a very deep theological discussion. Isn't it?
So, what school did the majority of you attend?
Mine was Winthrop College (University and co-ed now), and was all females when I was there.

[Marsha Lynn]

Regarding your avatar, isn't that J.O. Mcclurkan (sp/)? Any particular reason for that?

David P. had a photo of his adorable little girl in a bunny outfit as his avatar. Some of us complained about finding it difficult to argue theology with someone that cute so he changed it. Now we can knock down all of his best theses without a qualm.

:p

[David Pettigrew]

Regarding your avatar, isn't that J.O. Mcclurkan (sp/)? Any particular reason for that?

No, that's actually a current photo of me. Well, except I've dyed my mustache since this photo was taken.

dp

[Joe Bell]

Greetings!
I have been reading with interest.
But Dr. Bratcher, it seems that your comments and related thoughts should be a new thread-
-A discussion of the requirement that any minister, to be licensed, profess entire sanctification
-The idea that no one can preach the doctrine without experiencing it (your comment on parenting would have many logical opponents, beginning with professors in many subject areas and the large number of single teachers and ministers)
-The whole concept of requiring possession of an act of God's grace
-The feeling of Mr. Gates that Holiness, and holiness preaching, is not taught in our schools, although as far as I know it is a requirement, in part because of the Manual requirements for pastors
- My experience of many pastors who have "it", but not the fruit of a Spirit-filled life, according to the scriptures
- My own experience asking for and "receiving" sanctification (I think Wesley had it right in not claiming anything for himself!), followed by life, trials and growth which showed me how far I was from the "second blessing"- which I now feel I have- but I am thankful God's grace doesn't rest on my feelings!
- My preaching on sanctification before my final surrender, which led to at least 15 people being sanctified-I still know 4 of these, and testify to God's work and goodness in their lives
- My answer to the original question- how do you live, preach and teach holiness without leaving behind the balance in the fullness of God's revelation to us in Christ and the Bible; or how do you allow God to work in a person's life while asking them to claim something they may not experience; or how do you "allow" some sins in the "sanctified" (such as pride, judgmental nature, anger or greed), while not allowing others not mentioned in scripture as sins (tobacco, alcohol- I am not arguing that they aren't sins, but rather that in trying to say what a Christians looks like we have allowed a double standard)
Have a nice day!

[Ian Gentles]

I am not sure Holiness is an experiance, nor do i neccesarily beleive hardship and sufferings aid it. I do think many of us have double standards teaching one thing and living another.

[Anne and Dwayne Hood]

Ian, look back on the enthusiasm you first experienced when you settled it with God to go to school to study for the ministry. Is He not the same yesterday, today, and forever? Has He moved away or changed in any way?
Dis you once know and understand the experience of (entire) sanctification? Think of these things--meaning this in a loving, prayerful way toward you.

[Thaine Sprenger]

Greatest fear?

That we do not understand the difference between religion and spirituality.

To me this means
religion is made by man, for man.
CotN is religion.
Doctrine is religion.
The way we look at scripture is religion.
God only works with them out of Grace and probably pity ("herd of cats" kind of thing).
I support religion. It's great.
But my spiritual life operates independent of it,
That’s where the life is,
and, yes, it allows the community of the church and scripture.
Being spiritual separate from religion is one aspect of Holiness, and sanctification...
if not essentially what it is.
don't you think?

I believe growing people in that way, paradoxically, will grow the church!

[Anne and Dwayne Hood]

Religion is Buddha, Islam, Judaism, Christian, etc.
The other side of the coin is salvation through the shed of blood of Jesus, His ressurection, the Trinity, Virgin birth, etc.

[Thaine Sprenger]

We are kind of saying the same thing...
A Nazarene minister once said to me that if, for some hypothetical reason, God completely stepped out of the church, it's very posible the organization/structure would just keep going on. The church would grow as families had children, and they had children. We could generate warm fuzzy feelings and calling that the witness of the Spirit. Etc. Etc. He elaborated on the idea, and it makes a certain scary sense. His point was to not let that happen!

As CotN, We need all the structure and organization. But we also need the heart.
That's all I'm trying to say.
And to me, this general issue is one core thread running through the Bible, and the life and words of Christ.
It's also the thread that for me best fits the God connection to me, us, whatever.
It has become my working definition of Holiness and sanctification.
I'm really not explaining that enough for it to make sense to anyone!
I will if you ask.
Even if I did,
I don't expect any of you to agree with me!
<laughing> that would be a lot to ask!

[Marsha Lynn]

Greatest fear?

That we do not understand the difference between religion and spirituality.

Are you describing our greatest fear or the greatest threat to our faith? Sometimes we don't always fear the things we should. Not many Nazarenes, lay or leader, fear religion as far as I can see.

Which doesn't mean that we shouldn't fear it, just that I'm not sure we do.

Marsha

PS: Welcome to NazNet. It's good to have you here.

[Thaine Sprenger]

Are you describing our greatest fear or the greatest threat to our faith? Sometimes we don't always fear the things we should. Not many Nazarenes, lay or leader, fear religion as far as I can see.

Which doesn't mean that we shouldn't fear it, just that I'm not sure we do.

Marsha

PS: Welcome to NazNet. It's good to have you here.

Thank you Marsha. IN your profile you mention mennonites living about you, I've family roots and visits from them too.
The tread started with fears for the church. And qualified something like perfect love casts out fear, so we are being wildly speculative here... :)

For me, the essence of the old and new testiment is a story about us putting things between God and us. Kings, prophets, etc. etc. You know the point I'm making? In response to this pattern in our humanity, God made that promise in Jerimiah that he would write it on our hearts. I think Christ was about that. The Holy Spirit accomplished that.
The implications of that, to me, are staggering.

We can continue the story of putting good things between God and us, and be very busy about that. Today we can easily put our scared writtings, our doctrine, the structure and organization of the church... all of these things are good, and maybe point towards God, but
if God has written his word in our heart now, already, we don't 'need' them.
On a certain level, those good things get in the way.
Don't misunderstand. I support church and believe God works with it.

Your question is perceptive.
Greatest fear for the church?
Greatest threat to our faith?

I do posit that the religious part of our organization could be looked at with some fear and trembling, now and then. And can in fact be a threat to our faith, when our faith is in that, and not the simple presence of God himself. Here. Now.

And IMNSHO that's why many leave our church. They know somehow inside themselves that the church is just one of many signposts on the path. Walk the path? Or hang on to just one post? Or the next, or the next? If we would/could clarify our post(or that we are dumb as a post! In the best sense, ie humility?), and then enjoy the organization, without taking it to seriously....
there could be more integrity.
And some people would hang around longer.
We all would grow differently with a different integrity.

That's not the mission of the Nazaene church. But I don't think it's in conflict with it. It could be the 'mission' of Holiness... ;)

I'm just one little voice. All the significance of a bat belch in a wind storm!
well, it feels that way sometimes!
Does anyone out there even kind of experience God in this way too?

[Anne and Dwayne Hood]

The COTN has gone in some directions that I would have preferred that they didn't, But: As long as they teach holiness and love, dwelling on the death and resurrection of Jesus, sanctification, the trinity, virgin birth, etc. what have I to fear? I still see many people living that way, so I have no reason, to leave the denomination.

[Thaine Sprenger]

Perfect love does cast out fear, and you remind us of that....
which is beautiful!

That doesn't mean I'm not concerned and in the 'watch-and-pray' mode on a lot of current event issues. People who are right with God can do very stupid things in other areas of their lives. At least I have on occasion! The church as a whole could be right with God and still fall into some dangerous traps, don't you think?
But I don't think I'd abandon the beauty of Holiness even if in my perception the church was foolish, like getting involved in politics (which is power, which corrupts!). We are just people, doing the best we can.

One of the interesting things about this kind of conversation we are having is the we can compair notes. Are you seeing there what I'm seeing here? Is it working? Pat Robertson, Bill Bright, Franklin Gramn, the Navigators guys... they determined to take the country for Christ in the realm of political power. I know, some of them sat at my kitchen table more than once laying out the plans of doing just that!
I think I know what their aim was, but I now see blatant corruption in sincere CotN Christians here locally, who have followed their guidance, for example, just in getting on our school board. Take the school board for Christ. Protect our kids. But... now our very Christian school board 3 times in a row has picked administrators based first on being christian and then their professional skills. Our county has had to buy out these last three head administrators contracts because they have been deplorable. Great christians. Terrible administrators. One spent all his time trying to reform the Catholic church! And then he went from here to another district and did the same and was fired there! I'm told we are in debt literally millons to these people. Close to 30% of our teachers have turned over (i.e. quit) every year for the last 3 years.

There is something wrong here. Maybe mixing religion and politics is working there. It sure isn't here. And I'm seeing the Christians I grew up with lying blatantly. Like the school board members, saying one thing in public and another in private. They were coached expressly to do this, by the groups of people mentioned above. And we are bearing the fruit, and our children are paying a terrible price here.

If that's not your experience, it's not. Tell us. This is what's happening here. And yes, I do 'fear' good Holiness people being used for ill. Because it's here. Now.
But I don't fear for the denomination. It's a different thing.

If you are not interested in this, tell me and I won't bring it up again....
apparently,
many of you who have been on this site for long have heard all this before, and it gets old after awhile.
There is nobody around here in the church I can even mention a wif of this to.
They are walking in lock step to who knows where.
So while it's important and all that, it's also just nice to be heard.
I don't need to harp on it. ...until I get to heaven and can 'harp' all I want!? Hummm, now that's a different image of heaven!

[Susan Unger]

"Greatest fear for the church? Greatest threat to our faith? " Since this thread has been moved into a separate folder, I was able to see it and it caught my eye.

I am not sure that I can accurately answer what the greatest fear is [though I do have an opinion]. But, I like what you said about religion and spirituality. My former Nazarene church definitely seemed more concerned with religion than spirituality. So many couldn't understand why people were leaving but it didn't seem to drive them to their knees in prayer. Finally, for my own sanity I had to leave. I then also moved out of the area and am now in a healthier Nazarene Church. But, my heart is still with those people as I pray every day for God to bring them to their knees before the official DEAD sign is put on the door.

[Richard Call]

Jeremy, are you saying, or, are you questioning whether God's word (scripture) is fully authoritative?

[Hans Deventer]

Jeremy, are you saying, or, are you questioning whether God's word (scripture) is fully authoritative?

Jeremy is asking a perfectly good question. Perhaps it is better to answer it than to suggest some kind of heresy. According to you,
what authority gives scripture its authority?

[Richard Call]

Hans, thanks for your reply. It is noble of you to come in defense of Jeremy's question. However, I am not inferring; nor questioning Jeremy concerning heresy toward the scripture. I am asking him if he has a problem with the authority of the scripture which may or may not be a deliberate heresy.

In reponse to the question Jeremy raised I reply: (1) Jesus himself quoted scripture from the OT, as did Matthew, et el. (2) Jesus said, "Heaven and earth will pass away but my words will never pass away." Matthew 24: 35, NIV. My NIV study bible foot note on this verse says, "Jesus words are more certain than the existence of the universe." Therefore, if the authority of the scriptures, including his words herein stated, are eternally and absolutely true, why then would anyone question the inerrant authority of the scriptures.

[David Pettigrew]

Hans, thanks for your reply. It is noble of you to come in defense of Jeremy's question. However, I am not inferring; nor questioning Jeremy concerning heresy toward the scripture. I am asking him if he has a problem with the authority of the scripture which may or may not be a deliberate heresy.

In reponse to the question Jeremy raised I reply: (1) Jesus himself quoted scripture from the OT, as did Matthew, et el. (2) Jesus said, "Heaven and earth will pass away but my words will never pass away." Matthew 24: 35, NIV. My NIV study bible foot note on this verse says, "Jesus words are more certain than the existence of the universe." Therefore, if the authority of the scriptures, including his words herein stated, are eternally and absolutely true, why then would anyone question the inerrant authority of the scriptures.

Let me take a crack at a response here.

As Nazarenes, we are neither Muslim nor Mormon. We don't believe that the Bible magically dropped out of the sky in its final form, or that God dictated it word for word to someone in a trance. We do not treat the Bible as a "paper pope."

We do not believe in the "inerrancy of scripture", as do the fundamentalists. We believe it was inerrantly revealed by God concerning our SALVATION. (Manual p. 31 Article IV)
We do not necessarily believe it in inerrant concerning history, for example.

We don't teach "sola sciptura" (that the Bible is our only authority), as do the Lutherans. We teach that it is the final authority in matters of FAITH and CHRISTIAN LIFESTYLE (Manual, p39, 26.2). We do not believe it is authoritative in matters of science, for instance. We also look to the Church and Holy Spirit as our authority, though we measure our interpretation of them by scripture.

Now, when I say "we", I'm talking about the official theological position of the Church of the Nazarene concerning the plenary inspiration of scripture. Can you be a Nazarene and believe the Bible is 100% historically accurate? Sure! (Although I'm not certain how you square Matthew 28:1-4 with John 20:1-9, as an example), and that the earth was created in six 24 hour days? Absolutely! Most probably do. But believing these things is not prerequisite to being Nazarene.

So, I guess my point is scriptural authority would not rate as one of my big fears concerning the Church of the Nazarene.

My answer to Jeremy's question is: Israel and the Church, through the Holy Spirit, gave scripture its authority. Scripture is the ultimate product of God's Spirit and God's people.

[Richard Call]

David, thanks for your response concerning the inerrancy of scripture. I understand where you are coming from.

So far as creation happening in 6 twenty four hours I don't necessarily subscribe to this; nor do I subscribe to the evoluntionary concepts of an ancient world. I tend to believe that God did, in fact, create the universe in His own time and gave us the story, through Moses, giving the cyclical changes within a progressive mode and it happened according to His design. How much time He took to do it is incidental to me. He is, indeed, able to create it in 6 twenty four hour days and/or a hundred million years. It was His choice. He did it. Scripture says He did. For me that is sufficient.

So far as historical accuracy is concerned, why does Luke use historical factors in his writing of his gospel if those historical issues were not accurate within his Christ story? I think you have a problem there.

[David Pettigrew]

David, thanks for your response concerning the inerrancy of scripture. I understand where you are coming from.

So far as creation happening in 6 twenty four hours I don't necessarily subscribe to this; nor do I subscribe to the evoluntionary concepts of an ancient world. I tend to believe that God did, in fact, create the universe in His own time and gave us the story, through Moses, giving the cyclical changes within a progressive mode and it happened according to His design. How much time He took to do it is incidental to me. He is, indeed, able to create it in 6 twenty four hour days and/or a hundred million years. It was His choice. He did it. Scripture says He did. For me that is sufficient.

So far as historical accuracy is concerned, why does Luke use historical factors in his writing of his gospel if those historical issues were not accurate within his Christ story? I think you have a problem there.

I really don't have a problem, because I quit trying to "circle" this "square" long ago. I believe Jesus Christ was a real person, fully God and fully man, who lived, died, and rose again in a historical setting. I'm ok if the gospel writers didn't get every detail historically accurate and in chronological order. In fact, I know they could not have. In the synoptic gospels, Jesus clears the temple at the end of His ministry. In John's gospel, He does it at the beginning. Who's correct? Doesn't matter - it's not the point of the story. I wish Christians wouldn't put so much energy into coming up with the most convoluted explanations in defending the accuracy of the Bible. I heard a church of Christ preacher recently explain how the thief on the cross really was baptized before he died, otherwise he couldn't have gone to Heaven. Not sure how they got that whole cross in the river Jordan.

It's so much more fun to be a Christian since I quit trying to defend the preposterous and just learned to love the Bible for what it really is - a beautiful story of a God who loves.

[Roy Richardson]

There's ongoing discussion about changes in approach and doctrinal statement. I have good friends who are involved in all parts of the "spectrum" of the discussions/debates that are going on. A question that I think seems relevant when I hear these discussions is:

What are some of your "fears" concerning the future of the Church of the Nazarene?

I'm not a pessimist, and I know that perfect love casts out fear, but it seems that people discussing these issues are very passionate about particular statements/approaches/trends, etc., and I'm wondering if some Naznetters could articulate some of the fears/concerns regarding the "preservation" and the identity of the denomination in the days ahead.

Thoughts?

Charles

I fear that something banning coffee, potlucks and gluttony will appear in the special rules. :eek:

[David Pettigrew]

They'd lose me on the coffee. I'd just as soon go on to Glory if I couldn't drink coffee. It's awful to need something that badly, isn't it?

[Dave McClung]

There's ongoing discussion about changes in approach and doctrinal statement. I have good friends who are involved in all parts of the "spectrum" of the discussions/debates that are going on. A question that I think seems relevant when I hear these discussions is:

What are some of your "fears" concerning the future of the Church of the Nazarene?

I'm not a pessimist, and I know that perfect love casts out fear, but it seems that people discussing these issues are very passionate about particular statements/approaches/trends, etc., and I'm wondering if some Naznetters could articulate some of the fears/concerns regarding the "preservation" and the identity of the denomination in the days ahead.

Thoughts?

Charles

I notice that most of the clergy who have responded to this question have responded about fears related to theology.

There is an old saying (I couldn't track down the source on Google, but confirmed that it is an old saying.") that goes something like this, "To a hammer, the whole world is a nail." People tend to have fears in the area of their expertise.

With my background in financial matters, my greatest fears for the Church of the Nazarene is that our current organizational model is unsustainable financially.

1. Clergy Compensation -- I have watched the trend of Clergy Compensation for a long period of time. The average pastor has fallen farther and farther behind, so that our denomination is becoming a denomination of bivocational pastors. If one removes the top 10% of pastors from the statistics, then the average of the remaining 90% of pastors is near the poverty level.

2. Over Supply of Universities -- We have more Universities (and College) than we have Nazarene students to support them. The result is that our schools have to charge higher and higher tuition rates and depend heavily on educational allocations and several of the schools are still on the brink of financial crisis. If the trend continues, one or more of the schools will bankrupt within 5 years.

3. Much of the numerical growth of the denomination is taking place in areas of the world that require financial assistance. I worry about the ability of the U.S. Nazarenes to provide the needed assistance. I observe that many of our larger, healthier churches prefer to adopt a particular project or missionary to support as opposed to sending money to Kansas City for redistribution. I anticipate that this trend will continue, placing more and more stress on the World Evangelism Fund.

4. I observe more financial stress on local congregations than I have seen in the past. Any time I am with a group of pastors, the topic always seems to be the need for more money and the resentment for how much they are having to send for district and general interests. I used to think they were whining, but am coming to believe that the financial stress is a major issue in many local congregations.

In my opinion, it is much more likely that the Church of the Nazarene will face a financial crisis before it faces a theological crisis.

[Thaine Sprenger]

[QUOTE=Dave McClung[/QUOTE]


Perhaps it's out of date.... but ... let's see... it would be in the mid 80's...
a Naz minister left the church, switching to preaching in another denomination. We were good friends, and I understood him to say one of the very real reasons he left us was that it was 'dictated' from the general supertendents that the last sermon of all revivals include, if not totally be focused on, ...tithing!
Perhaps this soon-to-be-ex-naz minister had other axes to grind and overemphasized this? I sure don't know, but I observed for some time after that, that all the revivals I went to did build up to a final sermon on tithing!
So then, I kinda stopped going to them after awhile(tho it was for other reasons). And it may have changed by now...

But in a way I don't blame the leaders of the church. It must be hard... if the finances don't float... the particular message of the Nazarenes ...will have to change?? ....or be lost??? I don't know the ans. This is just the story of one little person in the mix of the larger picture. But I appreciate, Dave, your more well thought out and balanced presentation of your concern.

[Roy Richardson]

They'd lose me on the coffee. I'd just as soon go on to Glory if I couldn't drink coffee. It's awful to need something that badly, isn't it?

I hear you brother. I'm not a potluck fan, but they seem to be more essential than communion in most churches. I am a fan of banning percolators though. They just ruin good coffee.

[Billy Cox]

There is an old saying (I couldn't track down the source on Google, but confirmed that it is an old saying.") that goes something like this, "To a hammer, the whole world is a nail." People tend to have fears in the area of their expertise.

The saying I am most familiar with is:
"To a child with a hammer, all the world is a nail."


1. Clergy Compensation -- I have watched the trend of Clergy Compensation for a long period of time. The average pastor has fallen farther and farther behind, so that our denomination is becoming a denomination of bivocational pastors. If one removes the top 10% of pastors from the statistics, then the average of the remaining 90% of pastors is near the poverty level.

Does a church turnaround result in better clergy compensation or does better clergy compensation ignite a church turnaround? I have to confess that I can't imagine that 90% of Nazarene pastors are living in poverty when their entire salary/benefits is taken into consideration. I acknowledge that I have lived in the KC area nearly all of my adult life and I may have a rarefied view of pastoral compensation.


2. Over Supply of Universities -- We have more Universities (and College) than we have Nazarene students to support them. The result is that our schools have to charge higher and higher tuition rates and depend heavily on educational allocations and several of the schools are still on the brink of financial crisis. If the trend continues, one or more of the schools will bankrupt within 5 years.

I have to disagree on this one. I suppose it takes some audacity for me to do so since I am essentially a nobody when it comes to Nazarene higher education. Nevertheless, I foresee the Nazarene schools becoming less dependent on the denomination and less dependent on Nazarene students. One by one each school will realize that the denominational umbilical cord is drying up but that non-Nazarene money is just as good as Nazarene money, but with fewer strings attached.



3. Much of the numerical growth of the denomination is taking place in areas of the world that require financial assistance. I worry about the ability of the U.S. Nazarenes to provide the needed assistance. I observe that many of our larger, healthier churches prefer to adopt a particular project or missionary to support as opposed to sending money to Kansas City for redistribution. I anticipate that this trend will continue, placing more and more stress on the World Evangelism Fund.


This could very well give us the sense of urgency needed to drive a turnaround. I'm not entirely sure that the mission would dry-up without the USA's money, but it would certainly require a higher degree of creativity.



4. I observe more financial stress on local congregations than I have seen in the past. Any time I am with a group of pastors, the topic always seems to be the need for more money and the resentment for how much they are having to send for district and general interests. I used to think they were whining, but am coming to believe that the financial stress is a major issue in many local congregations.

What is the cause of the financial stress? Revenue in the toilet? Overhead out of control? It seems that it has to be one or both. It seems disingenuous to blame your most aggressive bill collector for your financial woes.


In my opinion, it is much more likely that the Church of the Nazarene will face a financial crisis before it faces a theological crisis.

Perhaps any impending theological crisis will be hastened by a financial one.

[Dave McClung]

What is the cause of the financial stress? Revenue in the toilet? Overhead out of control? It seems that it has to be one or both. It seems disingenuous to blame your most aggressive bill collector for your financial woes.


The reason local churches are in financial stress is because church members are in financial stress. A large percentage of U.S. Nazarenes live above their means and are so heavily in debt that they don't think they can tithe.

[Billy Cox]

The reason local churches are in financial stress is because church members are in financial stress. A large percentage of U.S. Nazarenes live above their means and are so heavily in debt that they don't think they can tithe.


Keeping the hammer/nail analogy in mind, is this a spritual problem or is it a lack of basic financial knowledge and skills?

[Hans Deventer]

Hans, thanks for your reply. It is noble of you to come in defense of Jeremy's question. However, I am not inferring; nor questioning Jeremy concerning heresy toward the scripture. I am asking him if he has a problem with the authority of the scripture which may or may not be a deliberate heresy.

But why would you do so? Is it illegal or heresy to even ask the question he posed? I read nothing in the question that would even remotely suggest he has a problem with the authority of the Scriptures, so I wonder where your question comes from.

In reponse to the question Jeremy raised I reply: (1) Jesus himself quoted scripture from the OT, as did Matthew, et el. (2) Jesus said, "Heaven and earth will pass away but my words will never pass away." Matthew 24: 35, NIV. My NIV study bible foot note on this verse says, "Jesus words are more certain than the existence of the universe." Therefore, if the authority of the scriptures, including his words herein stated, are eternally and absolutely true, why then would anyone question the inerrant authority of the scriptures.

So, the answer is Jesus? He gives the Scriptures authority? I'm trying to understand what you are saying here. Is this your answer?

[Anne and Dwayne Hood]

If the COTN is God's will for this world, I believe it will stand. I fear the liberal turn many are taking, but if we hold true to God's word, and the "rules" of His word, we as a church will stand--in my humble opinion--unless HE has something better.

[Anne and Dwayne Hood]

If one GS actually said that the last sermon of a revival should be on tithing, his one voice did not have any significance to it, that made that a rule of the COTN. One GS, or even six GS's do not make the rules of the COTN.

I would dare to guess that we had at least 50-60 revival campaigns while my husband was a pastor and no one ever told my husband what he should preach, or even suggested it.

Many times, as I was growing up, people held out to the last night of the campaign, before they would go down for praying for salvation. I really learned to look forward to the great service, we would have on that night I don't believe a sermon on tithing, would have brought it about.

Now realize, that you were just relating what someone told you, or that you heard.

[Kevin Rector]

The reason local churches are in financial stress is because church members are in financial stress. A large percentage of U.S. Nazarenes live above their means and are so heavily in debt that they don't think they can tithe.

It seems to me that living above your means is a sin. I've started a new thread to discuss it here:

http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php?p=179181

[Mike Schutz]

It seems to me that living above your means is a sin. I've started a new thread to discuss it here:

http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php?p=179181

Kevin - now you're into meddling.

[Billy Cox]

If the COTN is God's will for this world, I believe it will stand. I fear the liberal turn many are taking, but if we hold true to God's word, and the "rules" of His word, we as a church will stand--in my humble opinion--unless HE has something better.

'Liberal' is such a nebulous and subjective concept. Churches started in the past 20 years will look different than those started in the 1950's because recent conditions are so radically different. I don't think that they love God any less or have any lower regard for the Bible or the Holy Spirit.

If I had to choose between a church that is a little too permissive on divorce versus a church that excommunicates a family whose daughter turns up pregnant at age 15, I'll take the permissive church every time.

[Dave McClung]

Keeping the hammer/nail analogy in mind, is this a spritual problem or is it a lack of basic financial knowledge and skills?

It could be both, but it is primarily a problem with discipline.

There are enough illustrations in the Bible to make it clear that debt/credit was an issue even in Bible times, but it has never been more of an issue than it is today.

I would observe that some of the most spiritual people I know are heavily in debt.

I would also observe that most of the "financial advisors" I know are also heavily in debt.

It is a bit like asking whether being overweight is a spiritual problem or a knowledge problem.

[Dave McClung]

I hope that I am not coming across as being judgmental on this issue of consumer debt, because I am not. I certainly realize that Linda and I have been blessed with an exceptional level of income. It is a lot easier to live within one's means when the "means" are above average.

I will say that we learned to live within our budget the hard way. In 1966, I was stationed in Pilot Training in the USAF in Laredo, TX. One weekend, we drove to SanAntonio, TX in my old car. It wouldn't make it back to Laredo, so we "had" to buy another car. The one we picked out was a 1966 Bonneville Convertable!!! We loved the car, but it took all of our cash. We had no money to live on for the next three years.

[Richard Call]

Hans, I refer you back to the question that was asked. It is not illegal to ask the question; nor does it mean heresy to pose it. However, I do have a concern that such questions open the door for further questioning of the authority of scripture. Jesus, when He was tempted in the wilderness, rebuked Satan on the authority of the Scripture...."it is written." His quotes from Scripture, as you already know, were taken from Deuteronomy (written by Moses prior to Jesus first advent.) Therefore, it is fair to say that scripture had absolute authority before the time of Jesus on earth. (Case in point: the Mosaic law.) Israel was judged amd disciplined by her faithfulness to the law.
So it fair to say that the authority rested in Scripture before the time of Jesus and was given by the Holy Spirit to the OT authors and under His inspiration the Scriptures were written. It is true that Jesus enhanced the Scripture by His on dictums. Eg. the Sabbath and His authority over it. Furthermore, Jesus quoted from the Psalm on the cross to witness to the Jewish world as to who He was.

My answer to your final inquiry is this: The Bible is the dynamic written word of God. Jesus is the living word of God. They are inseparable in authority and one speaks of the authority of the other in absolute truth.

God bless....I know Hans, you already know all of this but I am doing my best to give reason for my answer to the intial question. I shall state my proposition: Do we have the right to question the final authority of Scripture? Note: Luke 24: 25-27. NIV, "25He said to them, "How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26Did not the Christ[a] have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?" 27And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself"

[Anne and Dwayne Hood]

Billy I guess I have been privileged to not face many of the things some of you mention such as a family being turned out, because their daughter got pregnant.

Mother always took people, as they were and worked with them, according to their needs, to help see that they were met, and in a kind loving way endeavored to lead them to the Lord. Mother was strict on us, but easy on others.

But I did know a Nazarene pastor that refused to dedicate an illigitimate baby. Dwayne would have never done that. We have to meet people at their point of need, and go slowly as we mentor them and pray for them. We were both raised much alike.

We still don't don't know which GS reads what you and I write on Naznet, and why--do we? ha

[Billy Cox]

Billy I guess I have been privileged to not face many of the things some of you mention such as a family being turned out, because their daughter got pregnant.

Mother always took people, as they were and worked with them, according to their needs, to help see that they were met, and in a kind loving way endeavored to lead them to the Lord. Mother was strict on us, but easy on others.

But I did know a Nazarene pastor that refused to dedicate an illigitimate baby. Dwayne would have never done that. We have to meet people at their point of need, and go slowly as we mentor them and pray for them. We were both raised much alike.

We still don't don't know which GS reads what you and I write on Naznet, and why--do we? ha

I'm guessing that for every horror story there are ten untold stories in which a Nazarene pastor or church applied grace instead of judgment.

[Hans Deventer]

Hans, I refer you back to the question that was asked. It is not illegal to ask the question; nor does it mean heresy to pose it. However, I do have a concern that such questions open the door for further questioning of the authority of scripture.

And that is what surprises me, Richard. If we believe "The Bible is the dynamic written word of God and Jesus is the living word of God" and I 100% agree with you there, what is wrong with the question? If we don't pose it, the world will. And we need to answer it.

I think I know Jeremy and his thinking a little. I don't have the least of doubt about his good intentions with asking the question.

What's wrong with our faith if it can't stand certain questions anyway, or if they are considered dangerous?

You know, that is my concern. That really worries me. It's as if we live in a bubble that by all means needs to be protected. But it seems to me that the trials we'll have to face in live are meant to refine our faith (1 Peter 1:7). God did not put us in a bubble, on the contrary. "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." If my faith can be shaken by questions, it's not much of a faith in the first place.

By the way, the answer to the question as I would give it is the Holy Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit who testifies to the truth of the Scriptures. He who inspired the men of old, helped the Jews and the church to recognize the truth of these 66 books, and still bears witness to their uniqueness and value as the written word of God. But I really like how you say that Jesus is the Living Word. For the Scriptures were given in order that we might believe in Him, they point towards Him.

And isn't this a good and important question to ask and to answer? One we should ask and answer in Sunday School, in church, and where ever we are faced with the questions (1 Peter 3:15) ?

[Billy Cox]

If my faith can be shaken by questions, it's not much of a faith in the first place.


I sort of agree with this, but in another sense I wonder whether a faith that cannot be shaken by questions is worth having either.

If by 'shaken' we mean that a question leads us to consider abandoning the faith, then I agree with you. If 'unshakeable' means we are so bought into our spiritual categories that a question from the mouth of God himself could not dissuade us, then I disagree. That would be idolatry.

[Hans Deventer]

I sort of agree with this, but in another sense I wonder whether a faith that cannot be shaken by questions is worth having either.

If by 'shaken' we mean that a question leads us to consider abandoning the faith, then I agree with you. If 'unshakeable' means we are so bought into our spiritual categories that a question from the mouth of God himself could not dissuade us, then I disagree. That would be idolatry.

Billy, I presume you know me well enough by now to put me in the right category.

[Billy Cox]

Billy, I presume you know me well enough by now to put me in the right category.

Yes, of course. I'm just living out the marketing slogan of Electronic Arts (video game company); 'Question Everything'. I'm sure that Voltaire would be proud.

[David Showalter]

Dave shared the following,

"In my opinion, it is much more likely that the Church of the Nazarene will face a financial crisis before it faces a theological crisis."

I grew up in a rural farming community that is now in major decline. I have a heart and concern for our rural communities that are literally struggling to stay alive. As I have watched the churches in these communities struggle as well, I have come to the conclusion that the ultimate financial crisis they are beginning to experience may be the very thing that causes them/us to get creative and proactive in figuring out how to maintain healthy ministry. Most small Nazarene churches will continue to try and maintain their budget payments far after they have gone to bi-vocational pastoral care, (or even no residential pastoral care at all, merely pulpit supply.) On the one hand I am thankful for their commitment and dedication to others, however they often do this as their very facilities are falling down around them, and they are being lead by a drop-by preacher. I maybe a little biased toward the legitimacy and need of the office of "pastor/shepherd", so you'll have to forgive me as I happen to be one.

[David Pettigrew]

You know, I've been with this thread since the beginning, but I suddenly just today remembered what my biggest Naz fear was.

When I was nine years old, I was a member of Alvin Church of the Nazarene, where Scott currently pastors.

We had an evangelist who told us that the communists were coming, and they were going to take coat hangers and poke out all of the Christian children's eardrums so they couldn't hear the gospel being preached.

I didn't sleep for two weeks.

That was my biggest naz fear ever!

I won't tell you the evangelist's name, but I'll just say it fit his facial expression for the entire campaign.

[Susan Unger]

We had an evangelist who told us that the communists were coming, and they were going to take coat hangers and poke out all of the Christian children's eardrums so they couldn't hear the gospel being preached.

I didn't sleep for two weeks.

That was my biggest naz fear ever!

That is just hysterical! :laughing For some reason, practically every post I've read today [especially the 'think about it' lady] has cracked me up. Maybe God knew I needed some good laughs today and so he provided them for me. :p

[Susan Unger]

Speaking of bizarre sermons from the pulpit ~ We had an evangelist at my church when I was young who described a woman who didn't get sanctified until she brought in her laundry tub, put it on the altar, and got in it ~ then the fire fell! Sermons like that made me fearful that I was never gonna get sanctified. Since I didn't own washtub and no flame of fire had ever landed on my head so I knew I wouldn't be entirely sanctified. I heard once that all pastors had to be entirely sanctified...so I envisioned hundreds of pastors having their washtub experience...didn't quite work. I knew then that NO ONE could ever be a pastor cuz there just weren't that many washtubs to go around!

[Bob Evans]

Speaking of bizarre sermons from the pulpit ~ We had an evangelist at my church when I was young who described a woman who didn't get sanctified until she brought in her laundry tub, put it on the altar, and got in it ~ then the fire fell! Sermons like that made me fearful that I was never gonna get sanctified. Since I didn't own washtub and no flame of fire had ever landed on my head so I knew I wouldn't be entirely sanctified. I heard once that all pastors had to be entirely sanctified...so I envisioned hundreds of pastors having their washtub experience...didn't quite work. I knew then that NO ONE could ever be a pastor cuz there just weren't that many washtubs to go around!

I think I heard the exact same sermon. But what you left our was an immediate praise the Lord when you close line broke and the clothing fell in the mud. If praise the Lord did not come you were not sanctified. We need to make sure we have proper orthodoxy in our false doctrines.:basic05

I also wondered if you had to do laundry to be sanctified.

[Linda Bechtold]

You know, I've been with this thread since the beginning, but I suddenly just today remembered what my biggest Naz fear was.

When I was nine years old, I was a member of Alvin Church of the Nazarene, where Scott currently pastors.

We had an evangelist who told us that the communists were coming, and they were going to take coat hangers and poke out all of the Christian children's eardrums so they couldn't hear the gospel being preached.

I didn't sleep for two weeks.

That was my biggest naz fear ever!

I won't tell you the evangelist's name, but I'll just say it fit his facial expression for the entire campaign.

I had a similar experience at my home church in Wichita Falls. I was around 9or 10 and they showed the movie "Thief in the Night" and several others by the same people... it had a scene in it where there was a guillotine and it was used if you didn't take the "mark". To this day I still sleep with a pillow over my head (I don't want it chopped off in the night)!

[Susan Unger]

I had a similar experience at my home church in Wichita Falls. I was around 9or 10 and they showed the movie "Thief in the Night" and several others by the same people... it had a scene in it where there was a guillotine and it was used if you didn't take the "mark". To this day I still sleep with a pillow over my head (I don't want it chopped off in the night)!

My friend Beth had a similar reaction to movies like that. Except I think her reactions were to reading them rather then watching them. She said that it has only been recently that she has go