Ministry in the Postmodern Matrix

[Hans Deventer]

I'm reading Brian McLaren, The Church On the Other Side (Doing Ministry In The Postmodern Matrix) and found the following quote:

When ministry is just a professional career for the clergy and the church is just another association or club, when arguments arise over petty trivialities and huge denial arises over major issues. the church hardly seems worth sacrificing for. The root of our challenge is to see the church als a life-and-death-matter for individuals and for the world - as something truly worth the suffering invested to save it and lead it and love it. (p 117)

Do I, do we, indeed see the church as a matter of life and death? Good question!

[Ian Gentles]

Yes we do! It has become just another club! Even in our churches people are suffering and we often neglect them.

[BobHunt]

Hans, I think when trivial things cause people to get in disagreement and causes friction in a church, it shows how shallow they are spiritually. How important is it that I get MY way about what color the carpet will be? Or, which side the piano will be placed?
If the Holy Spirit would fall on the place and people would be filled with the Spirit, these things would not seem as significant.
If we placed the work of the Lord higher and more important in our lives, and recognized the need of seeing more people know the Lord, these other small matters would fade.

[David van Beveren]

I'm reading Brian McLaren, The Church On the Other Side (Doing Ministry In The Postmodern Matrix) and found the following quote:When ministry is just a professional career for the clergy and the church is just another association or club, when arguments arise over petty trivialities and huge denial arises over major issues. the church hardly seems worth sacrificing for. The root of our challenge is to see the church als a life-and-death-matter for individuals and for the world - as something truly worth the suffering invested to save it and lead it and love it. (p 117) Do I, do we, indeed see the church as a matter of life and death? Good question! Yes I do see the church as a matter of life and death.
It is a living organism existing of living people with all their different stories worth loving. Whe the love factor is not a part of ministry, the minister should be quit his/her assignment.

[David van Beveren]

Hans, I think when trivial things cause people to get in disagreement and causes friction in a church, it shows how shallow they are spiritually. How important is it that I get MY way about what color the carpet will be? Or, which side the piano will be placed?
If the Holy Spirit would fall on the place and people would be filled with the Spirit, these things would not seem as significant.
If we placed the work of the Lord higher and more important in our lives, and recognized the need of seeing more people know the Lord, these other small matters would fade. Ok Bob, you and I can place the Lord higher and more important in our lives. By doing so our lives would be vibrant and people are eager to follow our example. But if we ourselves are waiting for others taking the initiative, the church would not change. It is MY responsibility to change the direction of the church, by changing my direction.

[Ian Gentles]

I always remember Yancy saying the most real fellowship he ever attended was an AA meeting. I think in some ways, everyone on NazNet is seeking for something more real in their christian experiance.
I cant talk to you folks about things I have experiances, seen, nor with any other christians. So for me church has become a sad place where I'm lonely!

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

My confession is that I don't have a clue as to what a "Postmodern Matrix" is. Can anyone give me a working definition of it?

[Kim Hersey]

Well Scott, as a postmodern pilgrim myself, I can tell ya that if you could nail it down and define it concretely and exactly, it wouldn't be so postmodern any more ;)

Seriously, Leonard Sweet is a writer w/ some great thoughts (and he manages not to be as controversial as MacLaren). Or for a slightly more "scholarly" view, check out Robert Webber's The Younger Evangelicals. (If you don't want to buy 'em, I'll ship 'em if you promise to return 'em someday!)

I, personally, like Sweet's description of a changed metaphor... that for the "modern era" the metaphor was solid, rock, stable, built to last,
and for the "post-modern era" the metaphor is water, changing position but not essence, moving, life-giving, swiftly changing, sometimes...

not that that helps, but it was a good picture for me ;)
Kim

[Marsha Lynn]

How important is it that I get MY way about what color the carpet will be? Or, which side the piano will be placed?

How often are these issues truly about the color of the carpeting or the positioning of the piano? More often, I think, they're about whether or not people care what I think. Am I a valued part of the church?

"[W]hen arguments arise over petty trivialities" I think we need to look beyond the argument at the people involved and see where they're hurting. Sometimes they may be so desperate for power and influence that they can never be a part of the good that's happening in the church. But how often could we move ahead if we simply chose to listen to people and consider their opinion before making decisions?

It takes at least two people unwilling to budge on the color of the carpeting before it can become a full-fledged argument. If you only have one person with strong feelings about the color, you can either go with their choice or appoint a couple of diplomatic people with good taste to serve on a carpet-selection committee with them and bring a recommendation to the church board. If you have two people with strong opinions, choose your best diplomats to serve with them and keep the old carpet (or bare floor) until they come up with an agreement. The more people you have involved in a decision, the less any one person is likely to expect to cast the deciding vote. If your carpet king or queen has extremely bad taste and doesn't back down in the face of democracy, there may indeed have to be a confrontation. But I wonder if we could avoid many of the ones we have if we were better at listening to people and factoring their view into the decisions we make. (No, we're not painting the foyer pink -- not even mystic rose -- but we'll find a color that will work WITH rose and work some rose highlights into the decor.)

And now, to bring this back to Hans' topic, when we're deciding what in the church is worth dying for, I hope we're not distracted by those arguing about the color of the carpeting or the paint in the foyer, because that's not it! What's worth dying for is building bridges for those caught up in the fray (and everyone else connected to the church) to find their needs met in Jesus Christ rather than trying futilely to meet those needs by power-brokering in the church.

So many times we have a choice. We can focus on what's wrong in the church or we can move forward with building bridges for people to reach God. I still have a long ways to go to learn the trade and am too easily distracted from my schooling, but my goal is to be a bridge-builder.

Marsha
(They did indeed paint the foyer pink. I attend anyway with the knowledge that people who care about paint like to change it frequently. I can outlast the current decor. :-) )

[Hans Deventer]

My confession is that I don't have a clue as to what a "Postmodern Matrix" is. Can anyone give me a working definition of it?

Scott, though from a Dutch source, I liked this article http://www.thejourney.nl/artpm.asp?ID=9

I found it here http://www.faithmaps.org/pomophilarticles.htm#Introduction%20to%20Postmoder nism and there seems to be lots more that would be interesting to read.

[Hans Deventer]

My confession is that I don't have a clue as to what a "Postmodern Matrix" is. Can anyone give me a working definition of it?

Matrix - a place or environment within which something orginates, emerges, takes form or develops. (p 8)

Postmodernism has been defined as defying definition :basic03 That doesn't help a lot of course. McLaren mentions 5 core values (p 162-165):


Postmodernism is skeptical towards certainty
Postmodernism is sensitive to context
Postmodernism leans towards the humorous (we shouldn't take ourselves or anyone else too seriously)
Postmodernism highly values subjective experience
For postmoderns, togetherness is a rare, precious and elusive experience

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

Thanks Hans -- that helps. Come to find out I have been a postmodern person all my life!

Who would have thought it!



Matrix - a place or environment within which something orginates, emerges, takes form or develops. (p 8)

Postmodernism has been defined as defying definition :basic03 That doesn't help a lot of course. McLaren mentions 5 core values (p 162-165):

Postmodernism is skeptical towards certainty
Postmodernism is sensitive to context
Postmodernism leans towards the humorous (we shouldn't take ourselves or anyone else too seriously)
Postmodernism highly values subjective experience
For postmoderns, togetherness is a rare, precious and elusive experience

[Hans Deventer]

Scott,

McLaren shares a story that might be helpful as well. I'll write it here as I found it on page 169

One day, not long ago, a woman who was a fairly new Christian came to see me in my office. She had developed into one of the best Sunday school teachers in our church; the children relished her energy, enthousiasm, love and creativity. She said, "Brian, I think we have a problem. I think I believe something different from the other teachers. I don't want to cause trouble, so I thought I should talk to you about it."
I thanked her for this uncommon courtesy and asked her what the problem was. She replied, "I think most of the teachers here believe that Jesus is the only way. I have a real problem with that."
Her problem was a classic postmodern dilemma. Resisting the temptation to address the issue of pluralism versus the uniqueness of Christ, I asked another question: "Why is this a problem for you?"
Her answer illustrates one of the delightful paradoxes of postmodernism: "My two best friends are not Christians. There is nothing I want more in my life than for them to discover what I've discovered these last few years. But if I tell them that I believe they are going to hell because they don't believe in Jesus, they will never listen to another word I have to say."

Do you see the irony? More important, do you feel her dilemma, and mine as her pastor? If you do, you are well on your way to understanding what it means to be a Christian in a postmodern world.

[David van Beveren]

..."I think most of the teachers here believe that Jesus is the only way. I have a real problem with that." I do understand this as if she is saying, "I do not believe Jesus is the only way.
And then she saidBut if I tell them that I believe they are going to hell because they don't believe in Jesus, they will never listen to another word I have to say." Here I understand, that she is still believing Jesus is the only way, but have a problem with the implication "believe in Jesus or go to hell"

Maybe it is my lack of English, or your lack of quoting, Hans, but what is the actual dilemma?
That she has lost her believe as a result of postmodern thinking
or that she cannot use the old language anymore

[Hans Deventer]

Maybe it is my lack of English, or your lack of quoting, Hans, but what is the actual dilemma?
That she has lost her believe as a result of postmodern thinking
or that she cannot use the old language anymore

Well, I wrote down the entire story, so it can't be my lack of quoting. That leaves us with one other option :basic05

No seriously, you are right about the language thing. From the entire story I understand her to be dedicated and believing. But, she simply can't use the same words that are used in Sunday school when talking to her friends. But still, she believes Jesus is the only way.

But to dig a little deeper into the problem, elsewhere McLaren wrote that we often interpret this as if Jesus is IN our way to get to the Father. Like you'd almost say, "yeah, it would be great to talk to God, but you have to get passed Jesus first, and He's tough". Almost like a bodyguard or some stern secretary.

Isn't it much more so that His way is the only way to get to the Father? Contrary to what the Pharisees thought in their legalistic mindset? And in line with the Lord's judgement in Matthew 25? And with His teaching in the Sermon on the Mount?

BTW, narrative theology is also very much a post modern thing, like we are discussing a story here :basic03