Hell

[Hans Deventer]

How should we interpret these two verses?

MT 5:22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, `Raca, ' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, `You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

MT 8:10 When Jesus heard this, he was astonished and said to those following him, "I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

How can there be darkness and fire at the same time?

[Dave McClung]

I have always assumed that heaven and hell are places for which there is no adequate earthly description; therefore, symbolic language is used.

Over the years, I have heard a lot of sermons on hell. They were successful in convincing me that I don't want to go there, but I don't think I know much about what it will be like.

Dave

[Doug Kitchen]

Thanks for posting these together, I had never noticed those distinctions before. Here are my interpretations:

Is it possible that the first verse refers to the contrast between human judgement (the Sanhedrin) and eternal judgement? I think raca was considered more severe of a curse at that time than simply saying 'you fool'. i.e. God has already judged us according more restrictive standards than our earthly judges. Out of His judgement mercy is obtained whereas with our earthly judges, only penalties are inflicted.

The "fires of hell" seems to be a literary device rather than a literal description. In the second verse, the darkness, weeping and gnashing of teeth is a different literary device. Heaven is described as a new temple in Revelations with lots of gold - I think that is not a literal description to show that heaven will be the purest, brightest and most perfect place imaginable. References to hell are similarily intended to indicate that it is a place of darkness, evil, suffering, ....


Doug

[Garth Lahana]

I would think that anything not in the pressence of the LORD is in darkness. Jesus is the Light, and anyone in Him is also in the light, therefore I would assume that if we are not in Him we are in darkness, including being in a flaming hell. John 8:12 is just one of the examples I found...
12When Jesus spoke again to the people, he
said, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows
me will never walk in darkness, but will
have the light of life.” (TNIV)

Garth

[Doug Kitchen]

Thanks for posting these together, I had never noticed those distinctions before. Here are my interpretations:

Is it possible that the first verse refers to the contrast between human judgement (the Sanhedrin) and eternal judgement? I think raca was considered more severe of a curse at that time than simply saying 'you fool'. i.e. God has already judged us according more restrictive standards than our earthly judges. Out of His judgement mercy is obtained whereas with our earthly judges, only penalties are inflicted.

The "fires of hell" seems to be a literary device rather than a literal description. In the second verse, the darkness, weeping and gnashing of teeth is a different literary device. Heaven is described as a new temple in Revelations with lots of gold - I think that is not a literal description to show that heaven will be the purest, brightest and most perfect place imaginable. References to hell are similarily intended to indicate that it is a place of darkness, evil, suffering, ....


Doug


I just realized the phrase I was looking for - the two verses use a mixed metaphor. It is interesting that we generally preach hell as "fire" (or fire and brimstone) but kind of ignore the "darkness" element to it. I think the darkness concept is a little more useful in encouraging believers to live in the light (a transformed life) rather trying to just avoid the fire when we die.

I think there is also the element that adults still fear fire but adults rarely are afraid of the dark. I think if we didn't have electric lights, the light/darkness metaphor would be much more powerful today.

Doug

[Dave McClung]

The truth is that most adults don't experience dark very often. When I was hiking, I reached camp just before dark on night. The two who were hiking with me didn't reach the camp until about 30 minutes after the sun went down. We were out of sight of any electric light and the heavy clouds hid the moon and stars -- it was really dark. Fortunately, each of us had a flash light. I wouldn't have wanted to be there without any light.

:cool:

[Gord Evans]

Darkness and fire, used metaphorically represent:

Darkness = sin = fun = iniquity = lost = dead

Fire = kindle = arouse = torment = pain = suffering

Perhaps, choosing from the above synonymy appropriately, LAS VEGAS, Strip or NEW ORLEANS, French Quarter or AMSTERDAM, Red Light District could be viewed as perfect juxtapositioning of 'darkness' with 'fire'.

Something like "legal" and "debauchery"

[Jeremy D. Scott]

Hey there-

Good discussion. I like what Dr. McClung and the Lahanas said. Heaven and Hell can't be explained in human terms, so metaphors are usually used. Hell is separation from God.

[Joel Merrill]

I would think that anything not in the pressence of the LORD is in darkness. Jesus is the Light, and anyone in Him is also in the light, therefore I would assume that if we are not in Him we are in darkness, including being in a flaming hell. John 8:12 is just one of the examples I found...
12When Jesus spoke again to the people, he
said, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows
me will never walk in darkness, but will
have the light of life.” (TNIV)

Garth

This is the way I take it also.

Joel

[Jim Severns]

Just some thoughts.

On Matthew 5:22, I sometimes wonder if there might be some verses that are difficult to understand or perhaps easy to misinterpret due to the translation factor. We’ve all seen how you can start out with a phrase in English, translate it to Japanese and then translate back to English and the result is far different from the original.

I wonder if what Jesus said here in Aramaic which was later written down in Greek and subsequently translated into English (or German, French, Dutch, etc) might be affected by the translation factor.

In our culture today, most people don’t take most insults too seriously. In Jesus time the culture might have been comparable to today’s middle east, where saying certain words to or about a person could result in a blood oath of vengeance.

So I wonder if Jesus was saying something like: “Your sworn oath / curse could make you answerable to the authorities, but your casually dismissive remarks about others show that your heart hasn’t really changed, which means you might just still end up in hell”.

On the fire / light thing, 2 thoughts.

First, the earth we live on was created by God under his rules for the universe. It conforms to rules about time, space, dimension, etc. Heaven and Hell may not be constructed by the same rules.

Second, fire is a very interesting subject. The flame from a match is quite different than the glow from coals. Alcohol fires can be completely invisible. Maybe the fire in hell is something we just cant understand.

[Jeremy D. Scott]

Hey there-

I almost hesitate to post this for a few reasons, only one of which is that I fear that many won't follow a link to read something, but this is a great article from www.crivoice.org that speaks to much of our discussion. If you have the time and interest, read it. It explains a lot.

Sheol, Hell, and the Dead (http://www.crivoice.org/dead.html)

[Terri Knoll]

thanx Jeremy! good read!

blessings,
Terri

[Michael R. Gentry]

The interesting verse for me about hell is ...

"And death and hell were cast into
the lake of fire. This is the second
death" (Revelation 20:14, KJV).

Will death and "hell" be consumed? or not?



Just a thot!
Michael R. Gentry

[Doug Kitchen]

The interesting verse for me about hell is ...

"And death and hell were cast into
the lake of fire. This is the second
death" (Revelation 20:14, KJV).

Will death and "hell" be consumed? or not?



Just a thot!
Michael R. Gentry

Michael,
Those are questions not thoughts! What are your answers? ;)

v. 13 says that the sea gives up the dead; and death and hell delivered up their dead.

So is "hell" better translated as "grave" in this context? and is the lake of fire better understood as the "final judgement"?

chapter 21 talks about the new heaven and new earth. So does that mean that death and the grave have ended, having been thrown into the lake of fire?

hmmm...

Doug

[Michael R. Gentry]

hmmmmmmm indeed!
:)




Just a thot

[Hans Deventer]

The interesting verse for me about hell is ...

"And death and hell were cast into
the lake of fire. This is the second
death" (Revelation 20:14, KJV).

Will death and "hell" be consumed? or not?


This is the line of thought that says that eternal life is a gift and not innate in us, so everyone that won't receive eternal life, will ultimately be annihilated?

Hans

[Michael R. Gentry]

Hey wait a minute, that was going to be my next question

:)

[Hans Deventer]

Hey wait a minute, that was going to be my next question

:)

Well, what do you think about that? I read in McLaren's The Last Word And The Word After That something like, we should at least all want that universalism be true, even if we don't believe it. If God does not want anyone to perish but that everyone be saved, surely we would want that too.

Hans

[Joel Merrill]

Hey there-

I almost hesitate to post this for a few reasons, only one of which is that I fear that many won't follow a link to read something, but this is a great article from www.crivoice.org that speaks to much of our discussion. If you have the time and interest, read it. It explains a lot.

Sheol, Hell, and the Dead (http://www.crivoice.org/dead.html)


That is very interesting and it makes sense.

Thanks, Joel:)

[Michael R. Gentry]

Joel:

I did go to the website and read the article on "hell." Very interesting indeed.

Just a note: I believe what protestants as a whole and what I have heard Nazarenes teach and preach, and what I have preached as well ... we will either end up spending eternity in heaven or spending eternity in hell.

However, from the human standpoint I can certainly see how many people would like to accept the concept that at some point those who have refused to accept Christ will cease to exist. And the argument used is a great one. To state the general sentiment of annialiation theory, "How could a God who is a God of love send a soul to a place of eternal punishment forever and forever?"

And the answer "we" as protestants who believe in eternal hell give is, "God doesn't send us, we make the choice where we spend eternity." That is also true.

But I do not believe we have answered the question with a satisfactory answer, "Why would a God who loves mankind allow him to suffer such an eternal atrocity?"


Think on that a while and if there is more discussion I'll throw you another fish :)



Just thinking out loud here :)
Michael R. Gentry

[Doug Kitchen]

Hans and Michael (I'm not entirely sure which post I'm replying to),

This thread has my head spinning... but... here's some other thoughts from the revelations passage -

v.11-15 twice mentions that we are judged by our deeds (I've checked a couple of translations). Therefore, not being thrown into the lake of fire is due to being written in the book of life (because of our deeds). The rest of scripture is relatively clear about being saved by grace but this portion seems to be more works-oriented. So is this the "James" balance - faith without works is dead?

Being thrown into a lake of fire does not necessarily imply consumption - but it does strongly suggest it. It sure sounds painful, if not eternal.

So it looks like there is a judgement but "hell" as we use the term is not the judgement. I'm having trouble seeing any universalism in this section of revelations.

... waiting for another fish from Michael. ;)

[Michael R. Gentry]

My "fish" would be this ...

First off, there are a few wack-o's in the world ... but lets leave them aside. I want to talk about a "normal" person. (ok, now a lot could be said about what is normal and what is not ;)

Now, what I want to say is this ... as a normal father, I don't care how much my son or daughter may have done to try to reject me ... I will still love them. And it would not give me any personal enjoyment to throw them in a vat of oil and stand by and watch them boil ... and then say ... "Now, I didn't put throw you in there; you made your own choice when you didn't accept me. Oh, and by the way, I do love you."


Don't brand me a heretic here ... I said in an earlier post I believe in the traditional belief in eternal heaven and eternal hell; but I must admit in my finite human mind and also at times having suffered just a short fling with any pain ... it would be much more pleasant to desire being annihilated at some point than to suffer pains in a never ending existence.

I do not believe everyone will eventually get to heaven, certainly those who have been evil an/or rejected Christ as Saviour; but to think even the most wicked man/woman who ever lived would suffer eternally is more sometimes than I can comprehend.

Just for the record, I plan on making it to heaven and not have to worry about whether or not hell is never ending. I am taking the safer route into eternity :) :) :)

[Hans Deventer]

Hans and Michael (I'm not entirely sure which post I'm replying to),

Use "quote", that makes it clearer :)

This thread has my head spinning... but... here's some other thoughts from the revelations passage -

v.11-15 twice mentions that we are judged by our deeds (I've checked a couple of translations). Therefore, not being thrown into the lake of fire is due to being written in the book of life (because of our deeds). The rest of scripture is relatively clear about being saved by grace but this portion seems to be more works-oriented. So is this the "James" balance - faith without works is dead?

I would say the Lord's words in Matthew 25:31-46 are in the works area as well. He does not talk about beliefs, not even right beliefs. Unless of course, we would indeed say with James that there is no faith unless it issues into a certain kind of behaviour.

McLaren has one of his characters say: "We are saved by grace and judged by our works". I guess both would be true.


So it looks like there is a judgement but "hell" as we use the term is not the judgement. I'm having trouble seeing any universalism in this section of revelations.

... waiting for another fish from Michael. ;)

I don't believe that universalism can be true, because ultimately, people are free to choose. Exactly because God is love, He will not force "His" heaven upon those that really don't want it. Some say that hell is locked from the inside, and that saying makes sense to me.

As to the eternity of hell, I tend to think that life without God is no life at all. Perhaps hell is a devouring place after all.

Hans

[Wilson L. Deaton]

How can there be darkness and fire at the same time?

Since you asked a "physics" type question, instead of a theological one, let me answer with a physics answer: Two words: Black hole!
;)

[Jeff Scott]

My "fish" would be this ...

First off, there are a few wack-o's in the world ... but lets leave them aside. I want to talk about a "normal" person. (ok, now a lot could be said about what is normal and what is not ;)

Now, what I want to say is this ... as a normal father, I don't care how much my son or daughter may have done to try to reject me ... I will still love them. And it would not give me any personal enjoyment to throw them in a vat of oil and stand by and watch them boil ... and then say ... "Now, I didn't put throw you in there; you made your own choice when you didn't accept me. Oh, and by the way, I do love you."


Don't brand me a heretic here ... I said in an earlier post I believe in the traditional belief in eternal heaven and eternal hell; but I must admit in my finite human mind and also at times having suffered just a short fling with any pain ... it would be much more pleasant to desire being annihilated at some point than to suffer pains in a never ending existence.

I do not believe everyone will eventually get to heaven, certainly those who have been evil an/or rejected Christ as Saviour; but to think even the most wicked man/woman who ever lived would suffer eternally is more sometimes than I can comprehend.

Just for the record, I plan on making it to heaven and not have to worry about whether or not hell is never ending. I am taking the safer route into eternity :) :) :)
Michael,

I'm don't think I'm following you here. Can you explain why the vat of oil exists? Is there a purpose other than to produce pain and suffering for your children if they make the wrong choice?

[Michael R. Gentry]

Michael,

I'm don't think I'm following you here. Can you explain why the vat of oil exists? Is there a purpose other than to produce pain and suffering for your children if they make the wrong choice?


You're right, nothing more than symbolism here, I could have used "hell" just as easily, but I'm not God, I can't put them there; but I presume I could have the power to put them in a vat of hot oil :)

[Jeremy D. Scott]

I confess that I have not Hell figured out. But it's stuff like this www.scarethehelloutofyou.com (http://www.scarethehelloutofyou.com) that I just don't think have a place in the Church. I could be wrong...seriously. I mean that - I could be wrong. But at this point, it's not a mode of "evangelism" that seems to demonstrate the gracious love of God. Are we saved from something or sanctified to someone?

By the way, this is a church just one mile east of my church. They run pretty well and do a lot of good for the community (as I can tell). This is by far their biggest event every year. (They also re-create the crucifixion every Good Friday). They always put hundreds of posters around town for Hell Night and they have a large sign out front of the church to advertise (another graphic sign). I got a postcard in the mail yesterday with the horribly graphic burning skull with burning skull eyes and bony teeth wide open staring at you. The only way you would know that this wasn't just a regular haunted house in the area is that the return address says "Praise Chapel Christian Fellowship."

I imagine that they are playing to the crowd that enjoys going to haunted houses every Halloween. Kansas City is well-known for it's haunted houses in old warehouses near downtown. People pay good money to see these things.

Anyway, anyone have any thoughts on this kind of thing?

[Billy Cox]

So, if a person is in Hell and they see something that they don't recognize, do they say, "What in Hell is that?"

[Wilson L. Deaton]

I had a friend in college who used to talk about one of is favorite sermons. The title was, "What in Hell do you want?"

Wilson

[Hans Deventer]

Henri Nouwen's devotional of today is interesting in the light of this subject:

The Freedom to Refuse Love

Often hell is portrayed as a place of punishment and heaven as a place of reward. But this concept easily leads us to think about God as either a policeman, who tries to catch us when we make a mistake and send us to prison when our mistakes become too big, or a Santa Claus, who counts up all our good deeds and puts a reward in our stocking at the end of the year.

God, however, is neither a policeman nor a Santa Claus. God does not send us to heaven or hell depending on how often we obey or disobey. God is love and only love. In God there is no hatred, desire for revenge, or pleasure in seeing us punished. God wants to forgive, heal, restore, show us endless mercy, and see us come home. But just as the father of the prodigal son let his son make his own decision God gives us the freedom to move away from God's love even at the risk of destroying ourselves. Hell is not God's choice. It is ours.

[Dave McClung]

Henri Nouwen's devotional of today is interesting in the light of this subject:


God, however, is neither a policeman nor a Santa Claus.
I am not so sure about that. On Wednesday night our adult group was watching a video on the life of Abraham. Just as we got to the part about Lot's wife, the children's session let out. Our 3 year old grandson, Joshua, walked in just in time to see Lot's wife turned into a pillar of salt. It was a pretty dramatic scene. Of course, Joshie wanted a full explaination of what he saw. When I explained to Joshie that Lot's wife didn't obey God, so she was turned into a pillar of salt, he exclaimed, "I am going to obey, Jesus!!" Isn't that a clear message in the Bible? -- those whe don't obey God will be punished. Doesn't that make God a bit like a "policeman?"

[Hans Deventer]

[/INDENT]I am not so sure about that. On Wednesday night our adult group was watching a video on the life of Abraham. Just as we got to the part about Lot's wife, the children's session let out. Our 3 year old grandson, Joshua, walked in just in time to see Lot's wife turned into a pillar of salt. It was a pretty dramatic scene. Of course, Joshie wanted a full explaination of what he saw. When I explained to Joshie that Lot's wife didn't obey God, so she was turned into a pillar of salt, he exclaimed, "I am going to obey, Jesus!!" Isn't that a clear message in the Bible? -- those whe don't obey God will be punished. Doesn't that make God a bit like a "policeman?"

Dave, if God is like a policeman, I'm doomed and you are too. We all are. I would say that is pretty fundamental in our view of God.

As to what He did in the Bible where His judgement fell upon people, I would say it goes without saying that the opposite is far more prevailing, as Jesus explained.

44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

I don't now if this is coincidence, but I was reading Philip Yancey's "Disappointment With God" tonight. I only just begun but he shares at the beginning of the book how surprised he was that when God was cleary present among His people, directly blessing and punishing according to their behaviour, they did NOT believe at all! In fact, the people of Israel made a terrible mess out of those 40 years in the desert.

Now I wouldn't start about this with Joshua and surely, it is great to follow and obey Jesus. But I do hope he will learn to follow Jesus out of love and not out of fear. I don't think God looks for people who serve Him out of fear, the great commandmend is to love the Lord our God. And surely, also deeply respect Him.

[Hans Deventer]

Together with a friend I am translating a book by Brad & Roland. One part adresses this issue very clearly, I think. Here it is:

Our fundamental structure regarding our beliefs about God must undergo a substantial change. We have all heard that God is love. Everything that this book contains is in fact based upon that one significant truth. God is love, and love here is a noun. The scripture does not merely say that God is loving, a verb, it says he is love. We know that God does in fact do loving things. He does them because he can do nothing else for he is love. He is the source of love; his character defines love; our search for love is at its deepest a search for him.
While this is all true, our understanding of God has been distorted by our concept of his demand for justice. We see God’s activity in the world being shaped by his battle for right against wrong. Our decisions in life are often described as decisions for right and wrong. We are often led to understand all of spirituality in terms of a struggle for good against evil, like Star Wars. We are led to see God as a judge and ultimately his love is an expression of his justice. There is an overarching beam from which hangs our entire concept of the world, of our place in it, of God and of evil. That beam will determine our belief system. In a world of black and white, right and wrong, joy and pain that beam is usually justice. If justice is the beam, we see life pushing constantly toward a balance; we believe that ultimately if we hold true to what we believe, then when we come to the end of our lives we will see balance being restored. We will be rewarded if we are good enough and punished if we aren’t. We look for reason in the world around us and we will often describe events in the world as “twists of fate” leading ever on toward balance and justice. We will define Christ’s death in terms of balancing the scales and allowing us to escape our condemnation. Christ’s death enables God to forgive sins and keep the cosmos balanced. Such ideas lead inevitably to a deterministic view of the world; a God that is pulling the strings, making events take place so that he can achieve balance. Such ideas find their way into almost everything we say and do in terms of our faith. The problem is that it ultimately becomes untenable. We will be left with a God that denies free will and forces events if we pursue this perspective.
The whole structure must be replaced. In its place we must find all our beliefs about God suspended from the beam that boldly declares that God is love. Justice becomes an expression of God’s love and not the other way around. Christ’s death is an expression of love conquering the inevitable consequences of sin, thus providing a way love can work in our lives. God’s activity in our lives is an activity of love, or grace as the Bible calls it. He is not seeking to have us and the cosmos in balance; he is seeking to have us in relationship, and that can at times seem very unbalanced.

[Hans Deventer]

The interesting verse for me about hell is ...

"And death and hell were cast into
the lake of fire. This is the second
death" (Revelation 20:14, KJV).

Will death and "hell" be consumed? or not?


A bit late, but the KJV is about the worst translation to be used to study the concept of hell. It uses the word for very different things like Sheol, Hades, Gehenna. In this verse, the word in Greek refers to Hades, the realm of the dead. It does NOT refer to hell properly.

[Jan McClellan]

Hey there-

Good discussion. I like what Dr. McClung and the Lahanas said. Heaven and Hell can't be explained in human terms, so metaphors are usually used. Hell is separation from God.

I think Jeremy is right on here. I think sometimes we focus too much on the 'hell' or firey part of hell and forget that the real torture will be knowing that you had a life time to get to know your creator and chose not too... and for that are eternally seperated from his love. Atleast that's how I've always focused on hell, maybe b/c the fire and brimstone idea is an untangible thought, as in I can't really picture that, but I can picture the lack of God (kind of) anyway hope that makes sense. :)

[Billy Cox]

Since this thread is 'back', I'll share this timeless comic.

http://voyager.dvc.edu/~jsinsel/images/accordions%20in%20hell.jpg

[Pam Little]

Hmmm ... Some simple thoughts here as I read thru this thread. I work with teens and we have mostly outreach but something that I have found is that somewhere we got away from teaching to fear God and preaching to much about LOVE. I believe you should follow God out of love but coming to him because of fear isn't so bad either. Kids who are second and third generation unchurched are thinking that they have all the time in the world that God will forgive them at the last moment and they can choose to live anyway they want now. Hell is not a real place to them but something made up like in a movie and that God supposedly loves us all so much he wont let us go to HELL. I work with these kids every week and I can not make it real to them. The media has done our world an unjustice. Mocking God in movies and taking away this generations hope. If I can believe in a place called Heaven why is it a stretch to beleive in a place called Hell? I know where I want to spend my eternity and where I am trying to head these kids. My grandma knew God was all about love and loving those who are your enemies.. but I know she knew she didn't want to go to hell either. We have to make God real to this generation and not just LOVE but also how God will ultimately turn his back if you dont listen. He gives us free will so we are not his robots and wants us to choose to follow him and love him, and he has warned us just like a loving father warns his child as he raises them. But ultimately WE have the free will to do what we choose, Right or wrong.

[Jan McClellan]

Hmmm ... Some simple thoughts here as I read thru this thread. I work with teens and we have mostly outreach but something that I have found is that somewhere we got away from teaching to fear God and preaching to much about LOVE. I believe you should follow God out of love but coming to him because of fear isn't so bad either. Kids who are second and third generation unchurched are thinking that they have all the time in the world that God will forgive them at the last moment and they can choose to live anyway they want now. Hell is not a real place to them but something made up like in a movie and that God supposedly loves us all so much he wont let us go to HELL. I work with these kids every week and I can not make it real to them. The media has done our world an unjustice. Mocking God in movies and taking away this generations hope. If I can believe in a place called Heaven why is it a stretch to beleive in a place called Hell? I know where I want to spend my eternity and where I am trying to head these kids. My grandma knew God was all about love and loving those who are your enemies.. but I know she knew she didn't want to go to hell either. We have to make God real to this generation and not just LOVE but also how God will ultimately turn his back if you dont listen. He gives us free will so we are not his robots and wants us to choose to follow him and love him, and he has warned us just like a loving father warns his child as he raises them. But ultimately WE have the free will to do what we choose, Right or wrong.

See when I speak to peers (as I am only 23) the reason they have stopped going to church was because to them every sunday was about fire and brimstone and not application to living a daily life (be it these aren't friends who have ever attended church w/ me) and I think that often for my generation the idea of hell has been over simplified... and I agree with you the fear of God needs to be known, however I guess I am more afriad of there being absolutely no good in my life than fire.. does that make sense? I didn't mean to sound wishy washy and that we as christians should only focus on Love. This is my first attempt at these things so forgive! I guess you shouldn't post unless you have really thought it out lol. Thanks for the insight, what a great thing to be able to speak freely and open and be able to learn.

[Pam Little]

hmmm. that is interesting.. My kids tell me that there is not hell or heaven . Again most of them dont even attend church though although I encourage but at least they are coming to youth group. I do talk about real life things like drug and alcohol abuse, sex, depression bullying.. Anything that I can relate God's word to. Tongiht we even have a group from Christian Motorcyclists Assoc. coming to witness, I also think that this forum is a good place to gain insight and young or old we all have something to learn from each other. I use every day to learn something new about my Lord and life. We are all sinners and all fall short but the wonderful thing is that Jesus saves!! I am so happy to know my sins were washed away and that I have himt o look at to help me when I am tempted. God is good!!

[Gerald Spear]

Pam and Jan,

You have made statements that show that you do have an insight into the need of the world to be reminded that God is real and that hell is real and that judgment will be enacted. Do not let view points and opinions on this
site pace doubts in your mind.

Pam, a statement that you made "we are all sinners and all fall short"
needs to have the verb tense changed to read "we were all sinners",
(is, are, were). Once we are forgiven for our sins we are no longer sinners.
Do not place yourself in that association.

I know the boards are going to light up because of that statement, so let me answer the objections now.

Keep working with those youth, they are looking for someone to follow, from unchurched homes, you may be their only path to Jesus.

gerald

Are we talking about a sin or a mistake? A sin is "a willful transgression against the known will of God" A intentional disobedance.

We do all make mistakes, followed by corrective actions to advoid repeating.

[Pam Little]

So once you are saved you can never sin again? I meant it in the lightest possible light..I think. My understanding is that yes we can be washed and saved and can do our best to not sin but even a bit of gossip is a sin. And while I try my hardest to live the best life and follow Christ's example I know that there are times when I have fallen a little short. So if I did something before I was saved that was a sin and something similair after it is a mistake? I dont mean like outright disobediance but minor infractions like gossip that wasn't meant to be be or an unkind word spoken in anger? Maybe I am confused on what most consider sin and what it means to be saved /justified/sanctified....

[Edith K. Thurmond]

Hmmm ... Some simple thoughts here as I read thru this thread. I work with teens and we have mostly outreach but something that I have found is that somewhere we got away from teaching to fear God and preaching to much about LOVE.

Dennis Rainey is writing about a book about the fear of God. He has had this on his mind for over 25 years and thinks that people no longer have a healthy fear of God. That healthy fear, of course, must be balanced with God's love. Mercy and justice.

This discussion is interesting and I appreciate you who are working in your churches with the youth.

Blessings,

[Gerald Spear]

Sin is a WILLFUL, a choice,a plan to disobey a KNOWN will of God.

You do not just walk out the door and automatically sin, if you make a planned approach to go next door and lashout about someone, with intent, yes gossip is a sin.

If you pass along a story about John (without checking the source) and then
find out it was an untruth you need to go back to the person you told and correct your actions( a mistake, error in judgment), BUT if after finding out the story was untrue, you CONTINUE to spread the untruth it is a SIN.

NO, I no not believe in Once-in-Grace, always in grace.

Jesue will give you the needed strength to not sin.

Do not become discouraged, walk the high road.

[Pam Little]

Ok thanks for clarifying your thoughts on that. I think we are on same page I just don't always get my thoughts out the way i mean them in my head LOL.

[Hans Deventer]

Dennis Rainey is writing about a book about the fear of God. He has had this on his mind for over 25 years and thinks that people no longer have a healthy fear of God. That healthy fear, of course, must be balanced with God's love. Mercy and justice.

I actually think the problem is not the fear of God. The problem is not understanding what it means that God is love. God's love is not like Santa's love. It is not a cheap love, it costed Him the life of his Son. Nothing that costed God so much, can be cheap for is. We need to understand again what Dietrich Bonhoeffer wrote about. He wrote about cheap and precious grace, and that is a big difference. If we understand the preciousness of grace, we'll never have to fear God and we'll love Him perfectly. And as we all know:

There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. (1 John 4:18)

[Edith K. Thurmond]

I actually think the problem is not the fear of God. The problem is not understanding what it means that God is love. God's love is not like Santa's love. It is not a cheap love, it costed Him the life of his Son. Nothing that costed God so much, can be cheap for is. We need to understand again what Dietrich Bonhoeffer wrote about. He wrote about cheap and precious grace, and that is a big difference. If we understand the preciousness of grace, we'll never have to fear God and we'll love Him perfectly. And as we all know:

There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. (1 John 4:18)

You have filled in the nuances that my time to respond limited. Dennis and I have had several discussions about this topic through the years and he says the same thing you say but in a different way. He uses the words fear of God to mean in a reverential context (there's a word for it but I can't think of it right now). When we really, really know God, we have an awe (fear) of him that keeps us from doing things we might otherwise do if we did not know him. Dennis says that people in our generation have not been taught this on a wide scale. We have lost the awe of God.

He has worked all his adult life in helping people know God, grow great marriages, and have good parenting skills. During all that time, he has seen many people commit adultery, etc. because they did not fear God in the right way. They did not have a good grasp of who and what he is and know his character. The awe just wasn't there.

Knowing what he has discussed about the topic in the past, I am looking forward to his book when it is finished. It has been in his head for too many years. :)

Bonhoeffer knew!

Blessings,

[Hans Deventer]

We have lost the awe of God.

I agree. We might sing it (Our God Is An Awsome God) but to experience it is a different story.
I don't even like the song "What A Friend We Have In Jesus" all that much. We didn't play with marbles together. He is love incarnated, and that is truly, deeply and totally awsome.

[BobHunt]

I suppose the closest I have experienced real darkness was when we were in NY State and went to a place called Howe's Caverns. They took us down an elevator 200ft and turned off the lights. It was true, your hand could be centimeters from your face and you could not see it.
I wonder about those who have openly defied God, those who have said there is no God, and even live as if there is no God. I would think at sometime during their life or even during death, there would be a great darkness in their life. I would hate to be there.

[Gina Stevenson]

I don't even like the song "What A Friend We Have In Jesus" all that much. We didn't play with marbles together. He is love incarnated, and that is truly, deeply and totally awsome.

Yet Abraham was called, "friend of God" ... perhaps our understanding of the word "friend" has somewhat changed since that was written, too ... perhaps we don't even esteem some of those around whom we call "friend" in the manner in which a "friend" deserves esteem, huh?

Something to think about, I guess ................... ;)

[Andrea Larabee]

NO, I no not believe in Once-in-Grace, always in grace.


...or once saved always saved.

I have a question and it may be off the subject of what this thread is actually about...

I have been a member of both, a Calvinism church and a Wesleyan church.
I can see clearly where we cannot lose our salvation unless we as Christians make a willfull decision to deny Christ. I understand God's covenant with us. From a Biblical or Wesleyan point of view, how else can we lose our salvation??... If we've been backslidden for too long or hardened our hearts for so many years??

I've asked a few Nazarenes this question before and no one wants to get into deep conversation to explain it or says it's too complicated to explain.

[Andrea Larabee]

...or once saved always saved.

I have a question and it may be off the subject of what this thread is actually about...

I have been a member of both, a Calvinism church and a Wesleyan church.
I can see clearly where we cannot lose our salvation unless we as Christians make a willfull decision to deny Christ. I understand God's covenant with us. From a Biblical or Wesleyan point of view, how else can we lose our salvation??... If we've been backslidden for too long or hardened our hearts for so many years??

I've asked a few Nazarenes this question before and no one wants to get into deep conversation to explain it or says it's too complicated to explain.

My question was about falling from grace-or losing our salvation as you see above. I'd really like to narrow it down a bit. I know this subject has been beat to a pulp... sorry.

1) If a Christian commits a sin/sinful thought just before they die and have a chance to repent, will they still go to heaven? YES.

2)One question is; were they ever truly saved in the first place? Whether their life changed after that moment of salvation? Only God knows His sheep and is the judge of that.

3)As Christians we are eternally secure in Christ. Our goal is to remain in Christ and be made holy like Him. But if we deny Christ, we deny heaven, and lose our salvation.

4) One point is that God is victorious-no sin is too great for Him to forgive.

When the Wesleyan doctorine says "you can fall from grace", what exactly are they implying?

[Hans Deventer]

When the Wesleyan doctorine says "you can fall from grace", what exactly are they implying?

They are implying that you won't be saved without yourself, and that the truth is that salvation has two sides:

Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed [...] continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

If you want Wesley's explanation, check out http://wesley.nnu.edu/john_wesley/sermons/085.htm

[Gerald Spear]

Hans,
Thanks for the Wesley web site.

I like the way Wesley goes to length to explain complex questions.

gerald

[Hans Deventer]

Hans,
Thanks for the Wesley web site.

You're welcome! They got lots of good stuff there!

[Hans Deventer]

Today, I preached on hell. As the day approached, and becoming aware of more and more difficult situations among people, some heartbreaking ones, the subject became even more heavvy on my mind. I think I managed to still bring the gospel despite the subject. It was a comfort to me to know that the One who talks about it most in the Scriptures, is the One who came to seek the lost and laid down His very life for them. So I guess even hell must be understood within the realm of God's saving grace.

[Hans Deventer]

Two years later, I'm reading a book on hell. Found an interesting quote:

Jesus never talks about the danger of hell to people other than His listeners - His teaching always warns "you", whether disciple, Pharisee or scribe. There is no dwelling on torture, no stirring up of nationalist feelings against the Romans, no mentioning of foreigners being consigned to hell. (Edward William Fudge, The Fire That Consumes, p 210-211)

[Scott Hilton]

Hans,

The more I have studied on this topic, the more I tend to lean towards conditional immortality. I at the very least, don't see proof in scripture of how one can be dogmatic about what truly describes hell. I believe it to be a very real place, however what that place looks like and how long it exists is very sketchy to me.

After all, hell does get thrown into a lake of fire.

blessings

[Hans Deventer]

The more I have studied on this topic, the more I tend to lean towards conditional immortality. I at the very least, don't see proof in scripture of how one can be dogmatic about what truly describes hell. I believe it to be a very real place, however what that place looks like and how long it exists is very sketchy to me.

After all, hell does get thrown into a lake of fire.

I agree, Scott. I'm turning into a conditionalist as well.

[Genevieve Boller]

"conditionalist" - what do you guys mean by that? I suspect I'm in that category, but I'm not sure without more info on what exactly you mean by that..

[Hans Deventer]

"conditionalist" - what do you guys mean by that? I suspect I'm in that category, but I'm not sure without more info on what exactly you mean by that..

Conditional means that eternal life is a gift from God, on the condition of faith. It isn't innate in humans. Since people who will be sent to hell clearly don't receive eternal life, they won't exist there eternally either. The Bible usually says that though they will be called from the grave for the final judgement, they will eventually "perish".

[Scott Hilton]

"conditionalist" - what do you guys mean by that? I suspect I'm in that category, but I'm not sure without more info on what exactly you mean by that..

Genevieve,

Here is a link that does a pretty good job of explaining it. I warn you ahead of time, its kinda lengthy and the writer is also reformed in theology. I found it to be an excellent article though.

blessings

http://www.geocities.com/athens/oracle/5862/hell2.html

[Genevieve Boller]

Well, bust my buttons...

I swear I thought I was the only one on earth who entertained that idea-- Wow!

And here I've been living in fear (well, not really :basic05 )... I mean, between that and the other crazy things I believe (like evolution doesn't contradict Genesis)... I could get my card revoked! :cool:

[Scott Hilton]

Well, bust my buttons...

I swear I thought I was the only one on earth who entertained that idea-- Wow!

And here I've been living in fear (well, not really :basic05 )... I mean, between that and the other crazy things I believe (like evolution doesn't contradict Genesis)... I could get my card revoked! :cool:
Maybe its something in the Houston water? :basic03

[Hans Deventer]

Maybe its something in the Houston water? :basic03

Could be! I've had a lay over at Houston when travelling to San Antonio in 1997. Now I finally know where it comes from! :rolleyes:

[Crystal Lutton]

How should we interpret these two verses?

MT 5:22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, `Raca, ' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, `You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

MT 8:10 When Jesus heard this, he was astonished and said to those following him, "I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

How can there be darkness and fire at the same time?

I'm not sure why we assume these two verses are talking about the same thing/place. The idea that those who *get* Messiah will be embraced in the light while those who *miss* Messiah will live in darkness. I don't read reference to final judgment here.

In the Matt 5 passage Jesus is expanding on the rabbinical teaching on the murder concept of Scripture and "fulfilling" (or properly interpreting) it when he explains that it's not just about your actions--but about your heart that may or may not eventually motivate the action. That hating without cause, saying raca and even calling someone a fool (which means they have rejected Torah thus it's a judgment) are all equivalent in God's eyes to murder. The Torah was never meant to be a list of rules--it's an expression of the standard God has for our hearts and lives.

[Hans Deventer]

I'm not sure why we assume these two verses are talking about the same thing/place. The idea that those who *get* Messiah will be embraced in the light while those who *miss* Messiah will live in darkness. I don't read reference to final judgment here.

? It's the first reference of Jesus to the Gehenna. And that does not refer to final judgement? What is the concept of Gehenna in Jesus' teaching according to you?

What I read about it says that this had become a technical term in Jewish literature of those days for the fiery pit in which the godless will meet their final doom. (E.W. Fudge, The Fire That Consumes, p 159; Beacon Bible Commentary, Matthew - Luke, p 75)

Wesley wrote in his Explanatory Notes On The New Testament

In the valley of Hinnom (whence the word in the original is taken) the children were used to be burnt alive to Moloch. It was afterward made a receptacle for the filth of the city, where continual fires were kept to consume it. And it is probable, if any criminals were burnt alive, it was in this accursed and horrible place. Therefore both as to its former and latter state, it was a fit emblem of hell. It must here signify a degree of future punishment, as much more dreadful than those incurred in the two former cases, as burning alive is more dreadful than either strangling or stoning.

I've got some Dutch commentaries that say the same, but I won't quote them here.

Seems you have some explaining to do.

[Crystal Lutton]

Yes, Gehenna refers to hell. And what Jesus was saying is that murder includes hate--both earn you hell. But that doesn't mean the second passage about a totally different thing is referring to Gehenna/hell. The "darkness" could very well be the reality of living outside the light as was mentioned by a pp.

[Ray Brock]

I just realized the phrase I was looking for - the two verses use a mixed metaphor. It is interesting that we generally preach hell as "fire" (or fire and brimstone) but kind of ignore the "darkness" element to it. I think the darkness concept is a little more useful in encouraging believers to live in the light (a transformed life) rather trying to just avoid the fire when we die.

I think there is also the element that adults still fear fire but adults rarely are afraid of the dark. I think if we didn't have electric lights, the light/darkness metaphor would be much more powerful today.

Doug



Very simple solution to this problem of whether there is fire or not in Hell. Strike a match and look through the fire. You cannot see through it. Total darkness. Hell is a place of fire - therefore total darkness

[Scott Hilton]

Very simple solution to this problem of whether there is fire or not in Hell. Strike a match and look through the fire. You cannot see through it. Total darkness. Hell is a place of fire - therefore total darkness
If you walk in a cave, that is darkness. Light a match in the cave and you will see the light burn through the darkness. I can't see through a brick wall either, that doesn't make it darkness? I don't get your description.

blessings

[Wilson L. Deaton]

If you walk in a cave, that is darkness. Light a match in the cave and you will see the light burn through the darkness. I can't see through a brick wall either, that doesn't make it darkness? I don't get your description.

When struggling with theology, Scott, just look to science...

Concerning darkness: Are not black holes burning, yet dark?

Science always has the answer!

Concerning not being consumed: All that is required is that those thrown into the fire be made of something with a higher burn threshhold than the temperature of the fire. We are familiar with this concept as we watch metal logs in gas fireplaces.

Concerning location: I've not yet solved this one. We all know that Hell is "down," but black holes are all "up." (And from above, we know that because of the darkness issue, Hell must be a black hole.) When I figure this one out, I'll probably be ready to publish. Perhaps I'll shoot for inclusion in the popular series and title my work, "Hell for Dummies."

:basic03

My actual point: In any discussion of topics concerning God, eternity, resurrection, eternal life, walking on water, etc., it is silly to resort to physics as if that is a determining factor. A God who can create the entire universe from nothing, if he chooses to do so, could certainly create a place where it is both dark and burning. Physics isn't the issue.

The real issue is what the Bible teaches about God and the future: Does the Bible actually teach us about a God who would create a place where he can extreme-torture people for all eternity? Or, does the Bible teach that the lost perish and the saved are given eternal life? The answers to those questions do not depend on whether or not the physics makes sense.

Wilson

[Hans Deventer]

The real issue is what the Bible teaches about God and the future: Does the Bible actually teach us about a God who would create a place where he can extreme-torture people for all eternity? Or, does the Bible teach that the lost perish and the saved are given eternal life? The answers to those questions do not depend on whether or not the physics makes sense.

You are right, Wilson. My initial question wasn't a good one. Again it shows that to get a good answer, you need to ask a good question first.

[Scott Hilton]

When struggling with theology, Scott, just look to science...

Concerning darkness: Are not black holes burning, yet dark?

Science always has the answer!

Concerning not being consumed: All that is required is that those thrown into the fire be made of something with a higher burn threshhold than the temperature of the fire. We are familiar with this concept as we watch metal logs in gas fireplaces.

Concerning location: I've not yet solved this one. We all know that Hell is "down," but black holes are all "up." (And from above, we know that because of the darkness issue, Hell must be a black hole.) When I figure this one out, I'll probably be ready to publish. Perhaps I'll shoot for inclusion in the popular series and title my work, "Hell for Dummies."

:basic03

My actual point: In any discussion of topics concerning God, eternity, resurrection, eternal life, walking on water, etc., it is silly to resort to physics as if that is a determining factor. A God who can create the entire universe from nothing, if he chooses to do so, could certainly create a place where it is both dark and burning. Physics isn't the issue.

The real issue is what the Bible teaches about God and the future: Does the Bible actually teach us about a God who would create a place where he can extreme-torture people for all eternity? Or, does the Bible teach that the lost perish and the saved are given eternal life? The answers to those questions do not depend on whether or not the physics makes sense.

Wilson
But Wilson, you are describing electromagnetic radiation, something that is not always seen to begin with. I know, I am going through radiation treatments as we speak and I can assure you, I don't see it. (even if my stomach feels like microwaved popcorn). :basic02

The descriptions used in scripture are of fire, something that can be seen. This fire is even used to describe angels in Thessalonians 1:7. Does that mean that the angels are not able to be seen or can they be?

Thats the problem with being dogmatic about symbolism, there always seems to be a case in scripture where the symbolic description is used in a way that would be rather contradictory of the dogma. You rightly point out that it is silly to think God can't create something that would fit this description. I don't think that is what I was discussing though. If we use scripture as our basis of determining this and allow scripture to interpret scripture, I just don't come up with the traditional view of hell. I think it is just as silly to be dogmatic about what hell looks like and how long both it and it's inhabitants will be there. T

I understand your point about the science of consumed, however scripture says the wicked will be consumed. I haven't seen one that says they will be consumed, but not really consumed. The only example off the top of my head would be the story of Daniel.....in that one, the good were fine in the fire, while the wicked were made to ash.

As for the location, Hell gets thrown into the Lake of fire. I find it interesting that in Revelation 20:15, the ones not in the book of life, don't get thrown into hell, but into the lake of fire, where hell was also thrown into. The location is crystal clear to me, lol. :basic05

I think a better question is, Why would a God who shows purpose in everything He does and a God who I believe does everything He can to woo His creation to Him, desire to perpetually toast those who are lost? Why would He leave a remnat of that which He detests, sin, alive?

blessings
I

[Wilson L. Deaton]

My initial question wasn't a good one.

I was actually responding to the discussion around matches in caves as proof... When you referenced your "initial question," I went back and read it again. I noted that it was first posted in October of 2005. I have a hard time believing how much my own views have shifted since then!!!

(I referenced Black Holes back then but at the time, in the back of my mind, I didn't consider it quite so ridiculous...)

Wilson

[Wilson L. Deaton]

Scott, just to clarify, while I responded to your post in the thread and referenced your name, I perceived that I was supporting your view, not debating you...

I interpreted your post to be poking holes in the dark cave analogy and I was just poking some more holes...

Wilson

[Scott Hilton]

Scott, just to clarify, while I responded to your post in the thread and referenced your name, I perceived that I was supporting your view, not debating you...

I interpreted your post to be poking holes in the dark cave analogy and I was just poking some more holes...

Wilson

Wilson,

I didn't take it as debating, I was just having some fun with what you said on top of it. I apologize, my humor and tact has not been very good lately. I think the treatments are taking more of a toll on me than I probably want to admit.

Many apologies if I came off badly.

On a side note of the black hole. I noticed that black holes do not allow light to escape from the black hole. Does that necissitate that you can't see light, within the black hole? just pondering.....

blessings and I apologize again.
Scott

[Wilson L. Deaton]

No need to apologize! I was just trying to make sure you didn't think I was debating with you.... So I apologize for making you think you needed to apologize. :rolleyes:

This line has the potential of becoming a recursive, infinite loop... :basic05

Wilson

[Scott Hilton]

No need to apologize! I was just trying to make sure you didn't think I was debating with you.... So I apologize for making you think you needed to apologize. :rolleyes:

This line has the potential of becoming a recursive, infinite loop... :basic05

Wilson
Thanks for making me laugh, heh. :q)

blessings