A "NEED TO" read if we want to truely know the mind of the Iraqi Arab

[Judy Hamilton]

Just take a few minutes to watch the demeanor of Saddahm Hussein, currently on trial and perhaps you will concur that this lady's remarks are well worth considering....Judy

To Demonize Is To "Durbinize"
Time Magazine is publishing a shocking interview with an Iraqi suicide
bomber. It's mind-boggling to understand, but just like in WWII when
America came to understand and accept the barbarism of its Nazi and Japan
enemies, so must Americans come to grips with our current enemy (Islamic
militants) how they view America.

To help explain this, consider Brigitte Gabriel, a native of the Arab
world, and the former news anchor of World News for Middle East
television. Now a Contributing Editor for FamilySecurityMatters.com,
Gabriel wants viewers and listeners to know the truth about what the Arab
World thinks of Senator Durbin's remarks, the alleged so-called "abuses"
at Gitmo (a joke she calls it), and the Arab ideology which views the
mettle of a man as the brutal way they treat their enemy.

As a child, Gabriel's own home was destroyed by radical Islamists because
she was a Christian. She spent 2 1/2 months in the hospital and then
lived under-ground for 7 years with no electricity and little food. THEN
she rose to become a news anchor, and later moved to the US where she's a
true American success story - own business, husband, two kids, etc.

* Here is an excellent OpEd on Brigitte's behalf.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

WHAT THE ARAB WORLD THINKS By Brigitte Gabriel

Torture is accepted and even expected in the Arab world. Yes, I know what
you're thinking-that's not politically correct in most mainstream media.
And you know some nice Arabs who have immigrated to America. But it's the
truth in the Arab world. Might makes right. Real men don't eat quiche.
They prove their manhood by the way they treat their enemy. After all
it's what Muhammad did to the unbelievers - Christians, Jews and
Zoroastrians in the Quoran - the 'holy book' allegedly mishandled in
Guantanamo prison.

Arab Muslim men gain honor by shaming, belittling, abusing and torturing
their enemy in the most horrific ways. Just look at how the Palestinians
treat so-called collaborators by disemboweling them and hanging them
upside down in Manger Square in Bethlehem. Look at the terrorist torture
chambers that the coalition forces recently uncovered in Iraq.

When people refer to the prisons of Saddam Hussein and his regime they
think he is the extreme exception. Not! The truth is his torture tactics
are quite the norm in the Arab world. If you want to see torture that is
beyond what any Westerner can ever imagine please go to
(http://www.masada2000.org/impalement.asx). Yes, you read it right,
impalement. You'll get a glimpse of what the Arabs do to their own people.

As someone who came from the Arab world and knows how they think, it
frustrates me to see self-appointed righteous minded politicians and
media pundits oblivious to Arabic culture and thinking, criticizing
America's actions at Guantanamo. These are a bunch of al Qaeda jihadists
who were captured while bent on killing us - the kaffirs or 'unbelievers.
They laugh watching our government bend over backwards, forwards and
sideways trying to appease the critics. The more we stumble over
ourselves questioning our goals and tactics, the more they think we are
weak and easy to defeat.
They smirk because they believe that Americans have demonstrated how
stupid and weak they are by caving in to stories about maltreatment of
Guantanamo detainees. They are watching our critics in this country and
counting on them to embolden the radical Islamic cause and weaken our
resolve.

Actually, Gitmo is a joke as far as the Arabs are concerned. Prison? You
call that a prison? Let me tell you what some of the prisoners call
Guantanamo, "Al muntazah al-dini lilmujaheden al Muslimin," The Religious
Resort for Islamic Militants.

They are given three halal meals a day in accordance to their religious
dictates. How many kosher prisons are there in the Arabic world? None.
Jews captured in the Arab world are butchered like those obscene pictures
taken in Ramallah during the frenzied slaughter of two Israeli reservists
who got lost. Remember the Palestinian man holding his red, Jewish blood
dripping hands, high above his head in victory? Remember Nick Berg's head
being held high also?

Most of these detainees never had three meals a day in their entire life.
They are gaining weight, and are living in what they refer to in Arabic
as "Al-Jannah," paradise. They have radio, television, soccer games,
air-conditioning, clean clothes, servants, meaning American GIs, who wait
on them hand and foot. They have Islamic chaplains and Qu'rans, the
social hate guide against Infidels, by people so concerned as not to
offend that they wear latex gloves and carry the book with two hands.

Many Muslims in the Middle East would gladly give up their poverty,
dictatorial governments, corrupt leaders and social bondage to enjoy the
relative luxuries Guantanamo offers. They have free medical care, better
than millions of uninsured Americans and our military men and women
serving on the jihadists' battlefield. Some of them who couldn't afford
to see an optometrist now have glasses and can see and read their Qu'ran.
Others who never had the opportunity to see a dentist now have a free
dental plan. It has become such a joke; we even stop interrogations to
let them take prayer breaks demanded by their religion.

As an Arab, I can tell you that Illinois Democratic Senator Richard
Durbin is aiding and abetting the goals and strategy of Islamic jihadists
who have declared war on the United States. Where was Durbin's comparison
to the Nazis when we found the torture chambers in Iraq? Where was
Durbin's comparison to Soviet gulags when we found the hundreds of
thousands of bodies in Saddam's mass graves?

Where was Durbin's head when he compared prisoners captured on the field
of battle to the internment of Japanese American civilians during WWII?
OK, apologize to unarmed citizens, not fighters with weapons in their
hands. Where was Durbin when he compared Gitmo and Abu Ghraib to the
industry of death that murdered 6 million Jewish men, women and children
during WWII? If anything his heart and mind were in the jihadists
terrorists' camp. If you see what story is being downloaded and shared by
viewers of the al Jazeera web site you will find the story on Durbin's
comments the winner.

If I were an Islamic terrorist I would be thanking Durbin and forwarding
his views to all my fellow fanatics. His reckless comments fuel the
fanatic frenzied jihadists, motivating them to blow themselves up in the
midst of innocent civilians, savagely cut the heads of helpless hostages
and devote themselves to killing the infidel who could be your neighbor
stationed in Iraq. Just like the Quran says they should.

Dick Durbin is an unwitting champion of Islamic radical fundamentalists.
His comments should be known from this day forward as a "Durbinization"
of the facts. To demonize something grossly out of proportion to what the
enemy is doing is to Durbinize. Gitmo and Abu Ghraib have been Durbinized
and the Arab world loves it. They laugh at Durbin because he's supporting
their belief in the destruction of our country and civilization.

The shame is Durbin doesn't have a clue as to what he's done. As far as
he's concerned, he did the right thing for the Islamic radical detainees
living high on the proverbial hog in Gitmo. What he really did was made
them laugh. Laugh at us for being fools and not real men. Now it's time
to see if the voters in Illinois and his fellow members of Congress are
men and women enough to tell the Moslem world Durbin isn't our real man.


Brigitte Gabriel is the former news anchor of World News for Middle East
television, and now a Contributing Editor of FamilySecurityMatters.com
and the founder of AmericanCongressforTruth.com

Hello dear Stan

Here is your article..cleaned up. I googled Bridgett Gabriel. She seems to be for real
http://www.charityadvantage.com/sss/BRIGITTEGABRIEL.asp

She wrote a thought provoking article. I know there are those that would and do tell us to turn the other cheek. When our men and women and american and allied civilains lives are at stake, I find this a hard pill to swallow. I still contend that "Ho Chi Minh City" would this day still be SAIGON had we given the Korean Tiger Division full reighn, or were allowed to follow thier mindset toward War during in Vietnam. I also realise in the same breath that this statment will go over the heads of most persons who might read this response. Hope you are recovering well Sir . I am headed to Dallas Friday, hoping to find where the warm air disappeared!!

Judy

[Stan Hall]

Thank you for the post, Judy. This needs to be shouted from the rooftops.

Stan

[Hans Deventer]

She wrote a thought provoking article. I know there are those that would and do tell us to turn the other cheek.

Yes. I recall some Middle East man named Yeshua from Nazareth talked about that crazy stuff a while ago. But of course He was tortured and put to death on a stake like He should. Of course we humans knew and still know better than that.

Yet He was dead serious:

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

I sometimes wonder, don't people ever get it? How would God have treated us if He believed in "might makes right"? We'd all be down in hell for the rest of eternity. :basic04

Now let me clear about this. I do understand matters of war are not that cut and dried. But I refuse to believe that Jesus meant for us to behave like our enemies.

[Ian Gentles]

It all quite frightening Judy.
And yes Hans only God's Kingdom will triumph.

[Ian Gentles]

PLEASE DONT MISUNDERSTAND WHAT I SAY HERE.

Many feel greatest victory for Islam was Kosova. Since end of World War 2 muslim imigrated into Kosova which is part of Serbia in their hundreds of thousands, and were at first welcomed. But they started to swamp out the Serbian population there. Next they wanted to be free of Serbia, hence the beginning of ethnic troubles there. Now islam has Kosova!
I hesitated to post this as our own troops were involved in Kosova, but it does show how Islam works. In our own lands expanding muslim communities are now calling out for their rights.

[Hans Deventer]

Ian, may I quote AND slightly alter a text (see italics)?

"I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him. Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies? Yet not one of them is forgotten by God. Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.
I tell you, whoever acknowledges me before men, the Son of Man will also acknowledge him before the angels of God. But he who disowns me before men will be disowned before the angels of God. [...]
When you are brought before rulers and shariah courts, do not worry about how you will defend yourselves or what you will say, for the Holy Spirit will teach you at that time what you should say."

Now of course in Jesus' time, there was no islam. But if there was, would He have said anything different from the above?

Who's concern is our well being anyway? Ultimately, not ours. What if there is no Christian left on this earth (and more have been martyred in the 20th century then in all the centuries before), who's problem is that? I'd say, that would be God's problem, with all respect.

But, what is OUR concern? Perhaps, our saltiness? Because if we have lost that, indeed we are (according to our Lord) good for nothing but "to be thrown out and trampled by men."

Let's be clear, we are not just talking like secular people, defending their wealth and life styles as if that is all there is, are we?

[Ian Gentles]

I agree Hans. Here on the form we come as two people, our political selfs, and our spiritual selfs. We can destroy muslims, but in doing so will have failed to love them. But if we love them will that mean thay will walk all over us? Its a hard one, and I apreciate your imput. Politicaly we must resist, spiritualy we must love.

[Barbara Moulton]

We can destroy muslims, but in doing so will have failed to love them. But if we love them will that mean thay will walk all over us? Its a hard one, and I apreciate your imput. Politicaly we must resist, spiritualy we must love.

I haven't personally met a Muslim yet that I would wish to destroy. The young woman and her husband who I saw just last week just look like tired people waiting in a hospital foyer.

Just a reminder that it is not the Muslims...it is the Muslim terrorists and extremists.

[Ian Gentles]

I dont think any of us hates any muslim personaly. I would say however, that we fear, and are angry, very angry, at those who support and perform terrorist acts, and that friends is a lot of them!

[Stan Hall]

I agree Ian! There are several Muslims where I work and I get along fine with them. But I wonder if their demeanor may depend partly on the context in which we meet them. Those I know at work, work to make a living and must exist as a very small minority in our society. Would they act the same if they were with a large militant group? I don't know.
Some have said the Muslims are basically a peace loving people and that only a small percentage of extremeists are the real problem. Well yes, and no. To the Muslim mindset, they seek peace like the Pax Romana. When they convert everyone to Islam then there will be peace. Their fundamental guide, the Quran, tells them to convert or kill the infidel. While I do have problems with our current war in Iraq, I think that sooner or later we will have to fight them. On their soil or on ours.

Stan

[Bruce Carriker]

I agree Hans. Here on the form we come as two people, our political selfs, and our spiritual selfs. We can destroy muslims, but in doing so will have failed to love them. But if we love them will that mean thay will walk all over us? Its a hard one, and I apreciate your imput. Politicaly we must resist, spiritualy we must love.

No one has hit on the problem Western Christians deal with better than Ian has in this post. Almost 100% of our problems find their genesis in the fact that we have successfully divided our lifes into "our political selfs and our spiritual selfs." I'm not sure Jesus, any other Bible figure, any other Bible writer, or any significant theologian in the history of the Church would recognize this dichotomy as legitimate. And yet, by and large, we have few problems accepting it as valid.

Folks, we don't have a poltical self and a spiritual self. We either have a Christian self (the whole thing) or we have an un-Christian self (the whole thing). We're either fully Christian, or we're not Christian at all. So, if your "spiritual self" has a problem with something, it probably ought not be something that your "political self" can come to terms with.

Someone made the comment that only the coming of God's kingdom can change things. For some, that is an excuse to accept the way things are and look for better days ahead. For others, who believe that the Kingdom came near in Jesus Christ and didn't leave when he did, it is a challenge to live as citizens of the kingdom in the here and now.

[William Hunter]

Yes. I recall some Middle East man named Yeshua from Nazareth talked about that crazy stuff a while ago. But of course He was tortured and put to death on a stake like He should. Of course we humans knew and still know better than that.

Yet He was dead serious:

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

I sometimes wonder, don't people ever get it? How would God have treated us if He believed in "might makes right"? We'd all be down in hell for the rest of eternity. :basic04

Now let me clear about this. I do understand matters of war are not that cut and dried. But I refuse to believe that Jesus meant for us to behave like our enemies.

Hans, how would you react? The Old Testament clearly teaches us that some people groups had reached their max. level of evil and God wiped them totally from the earth. No where do we read that we are to let evil have its way, and evil most generally arrives in a human person who is doing the bidding of Satan. Islam, along with other pagan religions, was born in hell as a deception to draw human beings away from Christ. I know people try to deny it, but that religion was formed in violence and is perpetuated by violence. Yes, wherever we can we must love them in word and deed; but nowhere do I find that we should let people bent on evil have their way. God restrains evil and are we not supposed to be like Him. He condemns evil in the strongest of terms, and methods as I read the Word. I wonder what many who preach only love would do if they were tortured for their faith as Muslims to in Arab countries. We should do whatever we can to encompass their salvation, but at the same time fully resist their evil if they come bearing that. In the case of these Islamic terrorists who represent the very worst of hell on this earth, they must to strongly restarined at every turn by civilized nations. Sometimes that means taking them out.

[Hans Deventer]

William,

> Hans, how would you react? The Old Testament clearly teaches us that
> some people groups had reached their max. level of evil and God wiped
> them totally from the earth.

Yes. But He hasn't been doing that a lot lately. So what does that tell us?

> No where do we read that we are to let evil have its way, and evil most
> generally arrives in a human person who is doing the bidding of Satan.
> Islam, along with other pagan religions, was born in hell as a deception to
> draw human beings away from Christ. I know people try to deny it, but that
> religion was formed in violence and is perpetuated by violence. Yes,
> wherever we can we must love them in word and deed; but nowhere do I
> find that we should let people bent on evil have their way. God restrains
> evil and are we not supposed to be like Him.

To be honest, I get the impression (not more than an impression, for I don't really know) that God's restrain is mostly of Himself. I personally would love Him to return and really end the evil on this earth. He can (and will), but so far, we've been going for a couple of millennia and still await the final trumpet. Still, I also believe He does work in this world, but it seems it is mostly as He told Zechariah: "Not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit".

> He condemns evil in the strongest of terms, and methods as I read the
> Word. I wonder what many who preach only love would do if they were
> tortured for their faith as Muslims to in Arab countries. We should do
> whatever we can to encompass their salvation, but at the same time fully
> resist their evil if they come bearing that. In the case of these Islamic
> terrorists who represent the very worst of hell on this earth, they must to
> strongly restarined at every turn by civilized nations. Sometimes that
> means taking them out.

I think there can be no doubt that God condemns evil "in the strongest of terms", as you wrote. But what does it tell us that His ultimate revelation was the Lamb, described so vividly in Isaiah 53? How is it that the one who wrote most of the New Testament followed these footsteps?

What anyone else dares to boast about—I am speaking as a fool—I also dare to boast about. 22Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they Abraham's descendants? So am I. 23Are they servants of Christ? (I am out of my mind to talk like this.) I am more. I have worked much harder, been in prison more frequently, been flogged more severely, and been exposed to death again and again. 24Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one. 25Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was stoned, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea, 26I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my own countrymen, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false brothers. 27I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked. 28Besides everything else, I face daily the pressure of my concern for all the churches. 29Who is weak, and I do not feel weak? Who is led into sin, and I do not inwardly burn? 30If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakness.


And as he wrote elsewhere,

But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me.

How come I read so precious little of this way? How come I read here all the time stuff that mainly talks about "an eye for an eye"?

The gospel speaks volumes about another way, the way that is foolishness in the eyes of the world. The way that does not defend like the world does. The way that indeed will include suffering and weakness, at least weakness in the eyes of the world.

31What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written:
"For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." 37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


How will we ever convince the darkened mind of the islamic people? By paying them back? I don't think so. But we will never win this war on terror, unless we win the islamic mind by showing what they are not used to at all: love. Jesus went that way. So did Paul and thankfully, many others throughout history. Even a pagan like Gandhi understood the way! Shouldn't we?

I wonder if perhaps these words of the Lord apply to people like him:

John 10:16 - I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

Now William, don't get me wrong. I'm preaching here and I know I am, but I am preaching more to myself than to you or anyone else. For this is the narrow way indeed. I would much rather just live my life here, in the Netherlands, in relative peace and quiet and wealth, enjoying the good life God has given me with the love of my life. But the Word says:

1 Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things.

That is what I am trying to do.

Blessings, brother!

[Ian Gentles]

Agreed Hans, God restrains Himself, many, including myself, have received more mercy that they deserve...we call it "Grace".

[Ian Gentles]

Ah Bruce if it only were so simple! ;)
Yes, I agree with you, we are to be one person.
But, "We render unto Ceasor"! In UK I'm a citizen of the UK, a loyal one, in a sense what happens to UK happens to me! As a citizen I fear terrorism, hate terrorism, having seen the mayhem and terrible grief it causes. So I guess I want us defended against it in a big way.
But, "We render unto God the things that are God"! This includes being loving, showing mercy, yes loving our enemies! As a citizen of Heaven, God's desires must come first whatever my worldly emotions!

I think the big problem occurs when people see serving their earthly country as being the same as serving God.

[Hans Deventer]

Ah Bruce if it only were so simple! ;)
Yes, I agree with you, we are to be one person.
But, "We render unto Ceasor"!

I like this discussion. But we should read here very carefully, because I think this verse has been misunderstood throughout history. I has created a false dichotomy. What is Jesus actually teaching here? Let's read Luke 20:20-26.

First, it is clear He himself had no such coin! Obviously not, because it had the image of the Roman emperor on it, and also the words "Pontifex Maximus", high priest. A Jew would not make images, as commanded by the Torah, and to have that title for a pagan was even more intolerable.

Second, Jesus shows his tempters to be hypocrites, for they themselves did have this coin, trespassing the 2nd Commandment!

Third, apo-dote, "render", actually means "give back". The very same word is used in 19:8, where Zacheus promises to give back to those he had plundered 4 times!

Now to the Romans, who were listening, this sounded all right. They did not distinguish too much between the emperor and a god anyway. To the Jews, however, the difference was huge!
Indeed the Jews understood what He has said, for in Luke 23:2, they accuse Him of not allowing people to pay taxes to the emperor.

We therefore most certainly should NOT give to Ceasar what belongs to God alone, especially since we are citizens of a heavenly kingdom.

Source: the late prof. Pinchas Lapide, He Taught In Their Synagoges (But I don't think it is translated into English, I have the Dutch translation of a book originally published in German)
Pinchas Lapide was a Jew, but believed in the resurrection of Jesus. He has written The Resurrection of Jesus: A Jewish Perspective and together with Juergen Moltmann, Jewish Monotheism and Christian Trinitarian Doctrine

[Judy McDonald]

Stan said: "To the Muslim mindset, they seek peace like the Pax Romana. When they convert everyone to Islam then there will be peace. Their fundamental guide, the Quran, tells them to convert or kill the infidel. While I do have problems with our current war in Iraq, I think that sooner or later we will have to fight them. On their soil or on ours." I agree. Everything I've read tells me as long as Muslims are in the minority they "lay low." When they gain enough clout, they begin pushing their weight around. The love of Jesus can penetrate the hardest heart, but God usually works through people, and that takes a long time to plant the seed, water and cultivate.

What would Hans have us do? Declare our love for Jesus, then stand defiantly before our enemy and let him hack us to pieces? Will our enemy see our fearless faith as something to be admired and emulated, or as weakness worthy of contempt and destruction? I dare say one or two, here and there, would see it as the former, but the vast majority would see the latter.

[William Hunter]

William,

> Hans, how would you react? The Old Testament clearly teaches us that
> some people groups had reached their max. level of evil and God wiped
> them totally from the earth.

Yes. But He hasn't been doing that a lot lately. So what does that tell us?

> No where do we read that we are to let evil have its way, and evil most
> generally arrives in a human person who is doing the bidding of Satan.
> Islam, along with other pagan religions, was born in hell as a deception to
> draw human beings away from Christ. I know people try to deny it, but that
> religion was formed in violence and is perpetuated by violence. Yes,
> wherever we can we must love them in word and deed; but nowhere do I
> find that we should let people bent on evil have their way. God restrains
> evil and are we not supposed to be like Him.

To be honest, I get the impression (not more than an impression, for I don't really know) that God's restrain is mostly of Himself. I personally would love Him to return and really end the evil on this earth. He can (and will), but so far, we've been going for a couple of millennia and still await the final trumpet. Still, I also believe He does work in this world, but it seems it is mostly as He told Zechariah: "Not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit".

> He condemns evil in the strongest of terms, and methods as I read the
> Word. I wonder what many who preach only love would do if they were
> tortured for their faith as Muslims to in Arab countries. We should do
> whatever we can to encompass their salvation, but at the same time fully
> resist their evil if they come bearing that. In the case of these Islamic
> terrorists who represent the very worst of hell on this earth, they must to
> strongly restarined at every turn by civilized nations. Sometimes that
> means taking them out.

I think there can be no doubt that God condemns evil "in the strongest of terms", as you wrote. But what does it tell us that His ultimate revelation was the Lamb, described so vividly in Isaiah 53? How is it that the one who wrote most of the New Testament followed these footsteps?

What anyone else dares to boast about—I am speaking as a fool—I also dare to boast about. 22Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they Abraham's descendants? So am I. 23Are they servants of Christ? (I am out of my mind to talk like this.) I am more. I have worked much harder, been in prison more frequently, been flogged more severely, and been exposed to death again and again. 24Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one. 25Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was stoned, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea, 26I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my own countrymen, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false brothers. 27I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked. 28Besides everything else, I face daily the pressure of my concern for all the churches. 29Who is weak, and I do not feel weak? Who is led into sin, and I do not inwardly burn? 30If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakness.


And as he wrote elsewhere,

But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me.

How come I read so precious little of this way? How come I read here all the time stuff that mainly talks about "an eye for an eye"?

The gospel speaks volumes about another way, the way that is foolishness in the eyes of the world. The way that does not defend like the world does. The way that indeed will include suffering and weakness, at least weakness in the eyes of the world.

31What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written:
"For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." 37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


How will we ever convince the darkened mind of the islamic people? By paying them back? I don't think so. But we will never win this war on terror, unless we win the islamic mind by showing what they are not used to at all: love. Jesus went that way. So did Paul and thankfully, many others throughout history. Even a pagan like Gandhi understood the way! Shouldn't we?

I wonder if perhaps these words of the Lord apply to people like him:

John 10:16 - I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

Now William, don't get me wrong. I'm preaching here and I know I am, but I am preaching more to myself than to you or anyone else. For this is the narrow way indeed. I would much rather just live my life here, in the Netherlands, in relative peace and quiet and wealth, enjoying the good life God has given me with the love of my life. But the Word says:

1 Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things.

That is what I am trying to do.

Blessings, brother!

Hans,

Taking a few verses out of their larger context trying to proof text an arguement is not very convincing when you look at the Bible as a whole. No where in what I posted can you get "and eye for an eye" thought. You particularly took that way out of context. Anyway, it would appear on this one we will forever disagree. I feel you are taking parts of the Bible to try and make a point. To make a proper arguement one needs to take the bible as a whole. Not one part stands alone and the full message of God. It takes the view of the whole.

[Hans Deventer]

Hans,

Taking a few verses out of their larger context trying to proof text an arguement is not very convincing when you look at the Bible as a whole. No where in what I posted can you get "and eye for an eye" thought. You particularly took that way out of context. Anyway, it would appear on this one we will forever disagree. I feel you are taking parts of the Bible to try and make a point. To make a proper arguement one needs to take the bible as a whole. Not one part stands alone and the full message of God. It takes the view of the whole.

William,

Of course I am taking parts of the Scriptures. It is hardly helpful to quote all 66 books in their entirety. However, I do think those quoted are the heart of the entire New Testament regarding how God wants us to live. Thanks to Dallas Willard, I now understand that a lot better even.

I also think the revelation of Jesus surpasses any that came before. If you don't agree with that point of view, than we will indeed never see eye to eye on this one.

To me, Jesus is God's ultimate revelation. No prophet, no bibical writer, can come close to Him, for He is God Himself. So if I think the OT doesn't align with the NT, I'll always follow the NT.
Example:

Matt 5:38 "You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

Indeed the Torah said so. (Exodus 21:24; Lev. 24:20; Deut. 19:21) But the Author of the Torah has the right to change the rules. So the old rule is now null and void, by authority of God Himself. If you think that is wrong, I then I plead guilty with all my heart.

As to "eye for an eye", I didn't say YOU said that, I said, that's what I mostly read here (there are exceptions).

[Ian Gentles]

Glad God didnt want, "An eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth", or i would be in big trouble. We must also realise that God loves muslims as much as He loves western christians. The state has its demands on us which we must loyaly render, or we shouldent live in free nations. Our nations have been attacked, will be attacked. Its a hard one, but we must resist terrorism with all our might, yet love them with all our hearts!

[William Hunter]

William,

Of course I am taking parts of the Scriptures. It is hardly helpful to quote all 66 books in their entirety. However, I do think those quoted are the heart of the entire New Testament regarding how God wants us to live. Thanks to Dallas Willard, I now understand that a lot better even.

I also think the revelation of Jesus surpasses any that came before. If you don't agree with that point of view, than we will indeed never see eye to eye on this one.

To me, Jesus is God's ultimate revelation. No prophet, no bibical writer, can come close to Him, for He is God Himself. So if I think the OT doesn't align with the NT, I'll always follow the NT.
Example:

Matt 5:38 "You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

Indeed the Torah said so. (Exodus 21:24; Lev. 24:20; Deut. 19:21) But the Author of the Torah has the right to change the rules. So the old rule is now null and void, by authority of God Himself. If you think that is wrong, I then I plead guilty with all my heart.

As to "eye for an eye", I didn't say YOU said that, I said, that's what I mostly read here (there are exceptions).

Hans, listen to what you are saying. If you really believe what you just wrote then you should not read the Psalms or anyother part of the Old Testament again for you just wrote that it is of no consequence. But the fact is that any fairly good student of the Word will know that Jesus never did say He did away with the Old Testament. Yes, He changed the sacrifice issue and some of the eating issues in the New Testament. But no where did He say He was doing away with the teachings of the Old Testament. And since God is the same yesterday, today and forever, He still is really hard on sin and evil, He still uses humans to supress is, etc. When Jesue corrected the Pharisees He corrected their interpretation of the Law, He did not do away with the Law. It is still very much in effect if we refuse to come under that saving grace of Christ.

This converstation needs to stop here I think. I feel you do not have a good grip on Biblical herminutics and this discussion just will not go anywhere. I hope that all the terrorists you want to love without trying to feach for Christ and change their behavior come to your country and no mine. I am glad for a Pres. and a military that holds them accountable for their evil. That would not have happened if Kerry was elected. God will hold them accountable for their evil; and no where in the New Testament does Jesus do away with the fact of accountabilty or His use of human tools to supress and destroy evil.

[Ian Gentles]

William, Hans like us all, is a thinking christian person, I dont always agree with him, but he has a good grip of scripture. I agree that its Sola Scriptura in all its depth and width, and wouldent dare relagate the OT in any way. I think what Hans is trying to say is, in Jesus, God shows His great love and mercy to all creation. My problem comes when we western christian, occasionaly, think of ourselfs as more deserving of His mercy than others. In UK we have seen IRA and Protestant terrorists become christians, and I wish this for muslim terrorists. OK, If I could kill a terrorist before they kill innocent folks I would, but I can also love those caught up in islamic terrorism.

[Hans Deventer]

This converstation needs to stop here I think. I feel you do not have a good grip on Biblical herminutics

Perhaps you should advise me to read better books then. But indeed. If you consider me to be so dumb, conversation has no use.

[Ian Gentles]

Hans ya aint dumb, and I'm sure William didnt mean it that way. Promise ya Hans, I dont debate with dumb people ;)

[Hans Deventer]

Hans ya aint dumb, and I'm sure William didnt mean it that way. Promise ya Hans, I dont debate with dumb people ;)

Thank you, brother. You are appreciated.

[Judy McDonald]

This is JudyM (not C) In my earlier post I asked, "What would Hans have us do? Declare our love for Jesus, then stand defiantly before our enemy and let him hack us to pieces? Will our enemy see our fearless faith as something to be admired and emulated, or as weakness worthy of contempt and destruction?"

I wanted to hasten to say, I didn't mean I'd deny Jesus to save my life.

In a relatively "safe" place like America, however, the "terrorists" don't usually take your life; they take your credibility. They don't shoot you, they just ignore, ridicule or marginalize you. They make you of no account.

The only reason America is still "relatively safe" is God's grace.

[Hans Deventer]

This is JudyM (not C) In my earlier post I asked, "What would Hans have us do? Declare our love for Jesus, then stand defiantly before our enemy and let him hack us to pieces? Will our enemy see our fearless faith as something to be admired and emulated, or as weakness worthy of contempt and destruction?"


I'm sorry for not responding to you, Judy. That was not intentional.

Let me try to answer.

First, it is crucial to understand that in any reaction, we need to trust the words of God.
"I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.

Second, as we should not gather treasures on earth, should we defend them? If we do, our message is simple and clear: it's all about money and the power to defend it. Somehow, that does not align too well with the gospel.

Third, we need to recognize the real enemy: the religous extremists who think that their version of islam needs to rule the whole earth. This is a battle of ideologies more than anything else. Especially Europe likes to think that all religions can live together peacefully. Well, if you keep your beliefs to yourself that is. It turns religion into personal preference, like I prefer bananas over apples. However, these guys take their faith a lot more seriously and are willing to die and kill for it. How can we change their minds? By powerplay? Not really. At least, that's not the way God Himself came down to earth.

Fourth, it is also clear that the gospel respects authorities (Rom 13), who don't carry the sword to punish evildoers in vain. There can be times when even war is an option, though all Christians will agree it is the last option.
But still, the real issue is in this specific war is not to conquer land, it is to "conquer" the mind, the Arab mind.

I simply wish that would be the focus.

[Bruce Carriker]

Hmmmm....

First, Hans...I'm sorry that there are those here who would challenge your hermeneutics without being willng to reconsider their own.

Second, as Christians, the New Testament IS DETERMINATIVE in how we read and understand the Old Testament. Did Jesus' not come to show us a better way? While he did not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill it, did things not change as a result of the incarnation, life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ? Or maybe I'm all wrong here. Maybe the only thing that changed was temple sacrifice.

Third, given the tenor of this conversation, at least from the "majority" view, I suppose that Jesus' was only kidding when he taught, "Blessed are you when you are reviled and persecuted..." I think what he really meant was, "Blessed are you when you demand an eye for an eye and slay your enemies for my name's sake."

[Ian Gentles]

LOL I do not think Jesus wants us looking for an "eye for an eye".
He did say we must "Love our enemies", now I think that is the hard one we need to work on.

1) Our enemies seek to destroy as, so we must protect our society.

2) We are to love those who seek to destroy our society.

I think the last point causes us problems, but then that means the problem is within ourselfs!

[Bruce Carriker]

LOL I do not think Jesus wants us looking for an "eye for an eye".
He did say we must "Love our enemies", now I think that is the hard one we need to work on.

1) Our enemies seek to destroy as, so we must protect our society.

2) We are to love those who seek to destroy our society.

I think the last point causes us problems, but then that means the problem is within ourselfs!

"In this sermon (The General Spread of the Gospel), Wesley supposed that the renewal of Christianity, launched in England some half century before, must spread throughout Christendom and that the effect of this renewal would be the return to the practice of a pentecostal community of goods and redistribution of wealth, which would prove an irresistible argument for the truth of the gospel to the adherents of other faiths. This would then lead to an end to the dispute among nations, leading to the universal reign not only of justice but also of peace. Such was the scope of Wesley's vision of the inevitable transformation of the social and world order by the grace of God through the instrumentality of the movement of Methodists."

Theodore Jennings, commenting on Wesley's sermon, "The General Spread of the Gospel"

[Stan Hall]

When Jesus said "Blessed are you when you are reviled and persecuted..." was He saying that it's a good thing to be persecuted? Does the Lord want us to be reviled? Or is He saying we are blessed for standing strong in the face of persecution, for maintaining our faith?
I think it's a mistake to equate our fight against Islamic terrorists with the phrase "eye for an eye." That phrase refers to revenge. And that's not what this battle is about. It's about protecting our culture, our country, our families and our way of life. These people have clearly stated their goal is to convert everyone they can and kill everyone else. They won't stop until they achieve that goal unless someone stops them by force. That's our choice:
1. Fight them and win.
2. a. Appease them and convert to Islam.
2. b. Sit and wait to be killed.

Which do we choose?

[Bruce Carriker]

When Jesus said "Blessed are you when you are reviled and persecuted..." was He saying that it's a good thing to be persecuted? Does the Lord want us to be reviled? Or is He saying we are blessed for standing strong in the face of persecution, for maintaining our faith?
I think it's a mistake to equate our fight against Islamic terrorists with the phrase "eye for an eye." That phrase refers to revenge. And that's not what this battle is about. It's about protecting our culture, our country, our families and our way of life. These people have clearly stated their goal is to convert everyone they can and kill everyone else. They won't stop until they achieve that goal unless someone stops them by force. That's our choice:
1. Fight them and win.
2. a. Appease them and convert to Islam.
2. b. Sit and wait to be killed.

Which do we choose?

Your list of options is not exhaustive, Stan. Here are some other choices we might consider:

"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also." Matthew 5: 38-39

"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you..." Matthew 5:43-44

"...live in harmony with one another; be sympathetic, love as brothers, be compassionate and humble. Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult, but with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing." I Peter 3:8-9

[Hans Deventer]

When Jesus said "Blessed are you when you are reviled and persecuted..." was He saying that it's a good thing to be persecuted?

No, I don't think so. Getsemane shows (if anything) that He was scared to death (litterally) about the trial that was awaiting Him. One can hardly say He looked forward to crucifixion.

Does the Lord want us to be reviled?

Depends, because of what?

11 "Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

As Peter explains in 1 Peter 4:

12 Dear friends, do not be surprised at the painful trial you are suffering, as though something strange were happening to you. 13 But rejoice that you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed. 14 If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. 15 If you suffer, it should not be as a murderer or thief or any other kind of criminal, or even as a meddler. 16 However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name. 17 For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 And,
"If it is hard for the righteous to be saved,
what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?"
19 So then, those who suffer according to God's will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good.



Or is He saying we are blessed for standing strong in the face of persecution, for maintaining our faith?

Yes indeed, most certainly we should maintain our faith.

I think it's a mistake to equate our fight against Islamic terrorists with the phrase "eye for an eye." That phrase refers to revenge. And that's not what this battle is about.

Stan, that's what I have been trying to say all the time! Exactly!

It's about protecting our culture, our country, our families and our way of life.

Now you lost me! I thought we were in a spiritual battle?

For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

I don't read about protecting culture, country, family or way of life. On the contrary. Paul had a few words to say about his culture, country and way of life in Phil 3.

5 circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee; 6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless. 7 But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8 More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ,

As often, The Message has it even stronger:

8 Yes, all the things I once thought were so important are gone from my life. Compared to the high privilege of knowing Christ Jesus as my Master, firsthand, everything I once thought I had going for me is insignificant--dog dung. I've dumped it all in the trash so that I could embrace Christ

These people have clearly stated their goal is to convert everyone they can and kill everyone else. They won't stop until they achieve that goal unless someone stops them by force. That's our choice:
1. Fight them and win.
2. a. Appease them and convert to Islam.
2. b. Sit and wait to be killed.

Which do we choose?

Fight them. As Jesus taught us to. Which might include #2b. So, as Paul said,

13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. 18 And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.

[Flora Brown]

Folks, we don't have a poltical self and a spiritual self. We either have a Christian self (the whole thing) or we have an un-Christian self (the whole thing). We're either fully Christian, or we're not Christian at all. So, if your "spiritual self" has a problem with something, it probably ought not be something that your "political self" can come to terms with.

So, as a full Christian - what is one to do when faced with 'convert or die'; I will not lie like a lamb, but if I must (and I will), I will die fighting. I am a Christian by choice - not because I had a gun to my head, but because I am allowed in this country to accept, or not accept Jesus Christ as my savior.. and I chose to accept.

I had a similar conversation with a JHW acquaintance of mine (acquaintance because she had come to my home to witness, and instead of shutting the door - I agreed to at least come to bible study at their Hall).

I held my position, to their (there was one other JHW who joined our two person bible study soon after I started) dismay and disapproval, that Christians not only have an right, but an obligation to defend their faith - not lie down like a passive mutt waiting for the slaughter.

This is the essence of the freedom of will to choose my Lord and Savior that I will not take for granted.

[Judy McDonald]

Christians look for a kingdom whose builder and maker is God, but in the meantime, we live here on earth, in our respective nations, and must deal with grocery bills, taxation, traffic laws, the possibility of military service and other responsibilities of citizenship. Throughout history some individuals have sought to withdraw from this world and others have obeyed the command to "Occupy till I come." William Wilberforce was one of the latter. He didn't sit and wait for slavery to go away. He didn't wait for God to step in. He didn't take up arms against it, but he did what he could, and eventually God turned the heart of Britain. In the face of Islamic radicals (the ones who take their book seriously) how each of us Christians "occupies" may differ, but I agree with one of the earlier posts. Unless we die of cancer first or God is merciful and stops this monster (through divine or human intervention), we will be left with the choices noted above: convert or die.

[Anne and Dwayne Hood]

Judy, Our family has one individual Sunni Muslim, that we can pray for, including my niece, great niece and his family that live in Jerusalem. My sister and I feel that he will eventually find Jesus as his
Saviour, and that my niece will get back to the Lord. Maya will be three months old on the 11th of February, and she is to be raised in Islam.
They live in London whee my niece teaches at a Boys's school--accept she is taking a long maternity break. Her mother flew over there to see the baby and meet Omar. She and I both feel, as I have stated earlier, that God is going to get through to him with the gospel of christianity. Don't know how, when or where, but we feel an excitement about it.