Mixed Message

[Wilson Deaton]

I recently visit another church on a Sunday morning. The sermon included talk of Jesus returning some day and ruling the new Kingdom on the new earth, etc. A different person got up to lead the final song and asked, "When he comes will you be ready to go?"

I REALLY wanted to stand up and say, "No, but like the preacher talked about, I'm ready to stay!" For the record, I was a good boy and kept quiet.

When (we) leaders send out Biblical/Theological mixed messages we needn't wonder why the "followers" are sometimes confused about things...

Wilson

[Billie Goodson]

I have heard/read NT Wright and I thought he basically gave the same outline as the message and song -- a going and a coming. I still have to read "Surprised By Hope" so maybe I haven't fully grasped what he was talking about. As bipolar as it may seem, could it be possible that the message sent was correct in spite of it actually trying to be contradictory? And depending on if you are a pre/post tribulation Premillennialist or some another variety....then it really gets murky.

I do agree with you though Wilson -- we need to develop more consistency in what is said, this area being one example. Kind of like when we start off with a prayer to the Father and then talk about his crucifixion. Gets really odd and heretical at points.

[Todd Erickson]

Wright says in "Surprised by Hope" that there won't be a going. God will remake all of creation as new (it's not clear if there will be a dramatic destruction first, contrary to revelations, merely that "all old things will pass away, all things will become new) and that's where the heavenly city will come down to rest for all eternity.

We aren't going to heaven. We're going to the regenerated earth.

Heaven isn't a place, so much as the place where God things are as God wills them to be. Which is why this is not Heaven. (the kingdom of)

[Wilson Deaton]

I have heard/read NT Wright and I thought he basically gave the same outline as the message and song -- a going and a coming...

Context, context, context:

If you want to use "you may die tonight" as your closing threat, then you can ask: "Will you be ready to go (to heaven for now) and then come back with Jesus later at the second coming?"
If you want to use "Jesus may return tonight" as your closing threat, then you must ask: "Will you be ready to stay?"

:smilies0041:
Wilson

[Billie Goodson]

Context, context, context:

If you want to use "you may die tonight" as your closing threat, then you can ask: "Will you be ready to go (to heaven for now) and then come back with Jesus later at the second coming?"
If you want to use "Jesus may return tonight" as your closing threat, then you must ask: "Will you be ready to stay?"

:smilies0041:
Wilson

Thankfully, I don't have to be as concerned about the "threats" parts and how to fit them in (or out).

(As a layman, I don't get involved much in this particular part. --- And a big Praise God for that!!)

[Mike Schutz]

We have experienced a surprising change - and it should not have been surprising - in the manner in which the content of the various messages we send on Sunday morning are now more coherent and consistent. It happened when several members of our congregation, including our minister of music, started taking classes in our district ministerial studies programs. As I teach the three course theology sequence "Systematic Theology, I, II and Holiness," it was convenient for them to take the classes.

As the minister of music - with no previous theological training - starting thinking theologically about our music, and not just about key and rhythm, she began to "get" what I was trying to do, and we are working together more effectively.

[James Johnson]

Wright says in "Surprised by Hope" that there won't be a going. God will remake all of creation as new (it's not clear if there will be a dramatic destruction first, contrary to revelations, merely that "all old things will pass away, all things will become new) and that's where the heavenly city will come down to rest for all eternity.

We aren't going to heaven. We're going to the regenerated earth.

Heaven isn't a place, so much as the place where God things are as God wills them to be. Which is why this is not Heaven. (the kingdom of)


Can you please provide me the scripture that is being used to back this claim up. Thanks!

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

Can you please provide me the scripture that is being used to back this claim up. Thanks!

I think the New Jerusalem is coming down to a renewed Earth and that God's dwelling will be with his people forever. Revelation 21:


1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.
2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.
3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.
4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."
5 He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."
Do you read this passage differently?

[Billie Goodson]

Can you please provide me the scripture that is being used to back this claim up. Thanks!

This is a sermon (http://www.ntwrightpage.com/sermons/Road_New_Creation.htm)Wright gave that speaks upon the theme. Revelation 21 deals with some of this idea. (As Scott pointed out just seconds ago!)

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

A different person got up to lead the final song and asked, "When he comes will you be ready to go?"

Probably not a well chosen song, but I think the idea of rising up to meet the Lord in the air is quite Biblical. I know you do too.


1 Thessalonians 4:17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
So, yes, I want to be ready to "go" and then ready to "stay" too!

[James Johnson]

Thanks Scott, I was just questioning in my mind the "Heaven isn't a place, so much as the place where God things are as God wills them to be. Which is why this is not Heaven." statement.

[Billie Goodson]

Probably not a well chosen song, but I think the idea of rising up to meet the Lord in the air is quite Biblical. I know you do too.


1 Thessalonians 4:17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
So, yes, I want to be ready to "go" and then ready to "stay" too!

Forgive me please..

Here is my comedy version of this discussion. It occurs between a pastor and a parishioner.

Parishioner: What happens when we die?

Pastor: We get to be with God.

Parishioner: So we go to heaven?

Pastor: Not really.

Parishioner: So we stay here?

Pastor: Not really.

Parishioner: What happens?

Pastor: We get to be with God.

Parishioner: Where? Here?

Pastor: Where He is.

Parishioner: Will we stay there?

Pastor: No.

Parishioner: Where will we go then?

Pastor: With Him.

Parishioner: Can we go over the new funding formula again Pastor...

[Billie Goodson]

Thanks Scott, I was just questioning in my mind the "Heaven isn't a place, so much as the place where God things are as God wills them to be. Which is why this is not Heaven." statement.

Does the Lord's Prayer carry that sentiment to some degree?

"Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven".

[Hans Deventer]

I understand the parousia is compared to a king arriving in a city. What happened then was that the people of the city went out to meet him halfway, and accompany him to their city. I understand that is the image Paul is talking about in 1 Thess 4.

[Kevin Rector]

Here's what I know: Jesus is coming back and we should be ready to meet him.

Everything else is window dressing.

[Ryan Scott]

Thanks Scott, I was just questioning in my mind the "Heaven isn't a place, so much as the place where God things are as God wills them to be. Which is why this is not Heaven." statement.

Some of that comes from the metaphysical discussion about how it's hard for something to be a "place" when there's no physical dimension. I believe NT Wright does talk about heaven, but more as an intermediate state - where God is now and where people go when they die and are separated from their bodies. Scripture is pretty clear on a bodily resurrection and that combined with the imagery in Revelation, along with the idea in Paul that creation is yearning for renewal leads theologians to conclude that the final place will be a new Earth in which God puts everything right and people are physically resurrected with a perfected body. As for what that means in specifics - your guess is as good as mine.

[James Johnson]

Here's what I know: Jesus is coming back and we should be ready to meet him.

Everything else is window dressing.

Now this I understand! lol

[Billie Goodson]

Some of that comes from the metaphysical discussion about how it's hard for something to be a "place" when there's no physical dimension. I believe NT Wright does talk about heaven, but more as an intermediate state - where God is now and where people go when they die and are separated from their bodies. Scripture is pretty clear on a bodily resurrection and that combined with the imagery in Revelation, along with the idea in Paul that creation is yearning for renewal leads theologians to conclude that the final place will be a new Earth in which God puts everything right and people are physically resurrected with a perfected body. As for what that means in specifics - your guess is as good as mine.

Just to take it back a little to the actual discussion point given by Wilson at the beginning -- when we say that God is in heaven, what does that mean? We aren't trying to limit God to only heaven, right? I sometimes think that we talk about God as if He isn't here and that really seems at odds with other statements we make about God. That is some of the difficulty I have with discussion on Hell (as a place) where people say that God isn't there. Hell to me would be eternal separation from the love of God, even if He was standing right next to me. In fact, His physical proximity would only heighten my despair of that condition.

[Billie Goodson]

Now this I understand! lol

I'm going to carry it a step further -- I am ambivalent about His return. I see salvation not as from something, but to something. That is one reason that Wrights writing has really resonated with me -- his discussion about Life after death (I have been crucified with Christ -- indicating a death in some respects to self and sin). I am commanded now and today to the kingdom of God which is in the present. At some point, I will get to the Life after Life after Death -- but, I frankly don't have time to worry about it now. "Know this day whom we will serve" and love Him with all of our mind, body, and soul. Then the "window dressing" is the best viewpoint and Jesus' return -- it is the time when creation will cease to groan.

[Ryan Scott]

That is some of the difficulty I have with discussion on Hell (as a place) where people say that God isn't there. Hell to me would be eternal separation from the love of God, even if He was standing right next to me. In fact, His physical proximity would only heighten my despair of that condition.

Careful, you're starting to sound like that heretic, Brian McLaren.

[Billie Goodson]

Careful, you're starting to sound like that heretic, Brian McLaren.

Sometimes we find strange bedfellows in our beliefs. This might be proof that even the blind squirrel sometimes finds the nut. I imagine that many will see different viewpoints on which of us is the blind squirrel.