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Mark Metcalfe
9th December 2005, 09:35 AM (09:35)
Cindi,

In regards to my comment in the Christmas Sunday note about your pastor,
first, I am sorry for the "snippy" comment. If you saw it as snippy, please
try to see that I was not trying to being snippy at you. However, I am
reflecting an inner turmoil that I am having over the direction and culture
of the Western Church. I'll attempt to explain.

The past and the future are in conflict over the present. (That's the abstract
language way of saying concretely that changes being brought to the Church
are causing the turmoil.)

Why do changes cause turmoil?


It could be simply that people don't like change.
It could be that people don't like to me moved from comfort.
It could be that people understand things in a certain way and have difficulty understanding things in a different way and valuing the difference.
It could be that "old" is being tossed out without regard simply because it is considered dated. That "new" should be valued because it is new and enlightened.


My concerns are reflected in the final bullet. I don't mind change. I
advocate moving out of comfort into service.

I am concerned that we are losing many things of value because those
things are seen simply as legalistic instead of any attempt to understand
why it once held value but may not today.

A tension exists between rules and meaning, and culture is having its impact.

A simple example: "don't run in church" (especially not in the sanctuary).
It's a parochial notion because the Church is not a building. Yet we have
not passed on the notion of reverence to our children, especially in a place
set apart for the very act of reverence. If that place is not set apart, have
we taught the next generation to revere God wherever they are? More often,
I see that we simply dismantle a "rule" without retaining any meaning.

Some changes are good, and some are not. Do we know which changes are
good and which changes are not? We don't like legalism, (rightly so).
I wonder how much we have lost under the guise of eliminating all vestiges
of legalism merely by labeling things as being legalistic.

With regards to the Christmas Sunday, I do not understand the reasoning
that cancels the gathering together of the saints on the Lord's Day. I know
that we can worship God on any day, and should do so every day. And we
can hold a service at any time slot on the calendar. To me, Sunday is like
the tithe; it is off the top, not what I have left. Hans mentioned that the
Dutch go to church on Christmas whether or not it is a Sunday. In America,
it used to be that we go to church on a Sunday, whether or not it is a
Christian holiday (holy day).

Now one might counter, but the sabbath was made for man and not man for
the sabbath. Indeed! But it was the practice of Christ to go to synagogue.

What the turmoil comes down to, I think, are two things:

1. Meaning
2. Transition

What are the things that we should carry forward into the future as treasures
and heirlooms of our faith? What has meaning?

I awoke this morning with a hymn in my mind:

Holy Spirit, Love Divine
Shine within this heart of mine
Cast down every idol throne
Reign Supreme and reign alone.

Then I sighed a deep sigh and said to my wife who was still cocooned
in our bed, "that song is lost to [most of] our church today." (This is
an ever-present topic of discussion and burden with us, which I hope
explains a bit more of my reaction -- again not at you, but at the subject.)

Lastly, let me explain what I mean about transition.

I think that there is a significant lack of understanding around the
necessity of transition from one mode to another. Every change is
a liitle death. (Shakespeare said every goodbye is a little death, I think.)
And as such, proper respect should be shown the passing of one to
better embrace the future. An example: when a church moves to a
new facility, it often will have a ceremony and perhaps a march from
one (the old) to the other (the new). This is important psycholoically
to make such transitions, because abrupt change is traumatic and leads
to frictions. I believe this is true in our transition from one music style
to another. This is why I use the phrase "carry forward our heirlooms"
to indicate that some things are important and valuable and should not
be lost. I think we need to become better at "rites of passage."

That's where meaning comes in... and the attempt to understand
why something has value to one but not another?
Does the thing have intrinsic value, or does it have contexual value?

Example: if I went to the corner store and attempted to pay for things
with British Pounds or Mexican pesos, they likely would not accept my
payment. (I certainly could find a bank to convert the currency, but my
point is that the Pounds and Pesos have no value to the store owner,
even though at the exchange rate they do hold value.)

In the Christmas Sunday note, some of us value going to church on that
Sunday morning. Some of us value the observance in a different way.
The idea that I do not value (or don't know how to value) the other way
does not (or should not) diminish the value of the other way -- just as
the British Pound or Mexican Peso still has value, but not in the American
corner convenience store.

This is a very long note, and I have only touched the surface of my
discomfort with the state and direction of the Church. I'll leave it
here for now.

To state once more, I was not being snippy at you. Forgive me for making
you feel as if I hold anything against you. I do not.

Mark

Glenn Newton
9th December 2005, 10:24 AM (10:24)
Mark,

I know this wasn't for me, but that was a great post, and I think you have captured much of what we struggle with in the church. I know that I'm guilty of moving forward too quickly sometimes without taking the time to take measure of "why" things were done the way they were done. I'm a push forward type of personality, and I need to reflect more, and ask more questions before moving forward thinking that this is what must be done to grow.

There is a struggle going on, and somehow we need to be able to keep our perspective and try to be patient on both sides.

In this whole discussion about Christmas Sunday, I hope I didn't offend anyone either.... I sure don't try to hold people from having their family time, I just was thinking, "why not have a service for those who wanted to be there?" Anyway..... Have a great day.

Glenn

Mark Metcalfe
9th December 2005, 10:37 AM (10:37)
I awoke this morning with a hymn in my mind:

Holy Spirit, Love Divine
Shine within this heart of mine
Cast down every idol throne
Reign Supreme and reign alone.


I mixed the verses up in my memory.
As long as I have the Nazarene Hymnal open, here is the entire text.

Holy Spirit, Light divine
Shine upon this heart of mine.
Chase the shades of night away;
Turn my darkness into day.

Holy Spirit, Pow'r divine
Cleanse this guilty heart of mine
Long hath sin without control
Held dominion o'er my soul

Holy Spirit, Joy divine
Cheer this saddened heart of mine.
Bid my many woes depart;
Heal my wounded bleeding heart.

Holy Spirit, all divine
Dwell within this heart of mine
Cast down every idol throne
Reign supreme and reign alone.

Words: Andrew Reed (1817)

Edith K. Thurmond
9th December 2005, 10:42 AM (10:42)
....I have only touched the surface of my
discomfort with the state and direction of the Church. Mark


The many Nazarenes who worship at this church also must have felt similar discomfort to yours in relation to the direction of the Western church. You might enjoy reading this site. Be sure and check out their hymnal and prayer sections. I like the way they pray specifially for other churches, pastors, denominations, neighborhoods, etc.

Dr. Greathouse is/was a spiritual advisor to the beginning group who started this church. They keep what is of value (to them) from the 'old' and implement what is of value (to them) from the 'new.'

I would probably feel very 'at home' worshipping with this group of believers. www.epworthchapelonthegreen.org (http://www.epworthchapelonthegreen.org)

Advent blessings+

Mark Metcalfe
9th December 2005, 10:49 AM (10:49)
The many Nazarenes who worship at this church also must have felt similar discomfort to yours in relation to the direction of the Western church. You might enjoy reading this site. Be sure and check out their hymnal and prayer sections. I like the way they pray specifially for other churches, pastors, denominations, neighborhoods, etc.

Dr. Greathouse is/was a spiritual advisor to the beginning group who started this church. They keep what is of value (to them) from the 'old' and implement what is of value (to them) from the 'new.'

I would probably feel very 'at home' worshipping with this group of believers. www.chapelonthegreen.org (http://www.chapelonthegreen.org/)

Advent blessings+

Thank you Edith.

A side story about Dr. Greathouse:

About 1973 or 1974, on a Sunday in Edison, NJ, the General Superintendent
Dr. William Greathouse came to our church. Of course, he was invited back
to the parsonage for dinner. My mother put on a seven course spread in the
formal dining room. Each course was served separately in keeping with the
formal occasion of having such a great man among us.

Now, I am the picky eater of the family, so we were cautioned to be on
our best behavior. I cautioned my mother to simply not set a course for me
that she knew I wouldn't like so that she wouldn't be embarrassed by my
refusal to eat it, and she agreed that this was a good plan.

Dr. Greathouse sat on my right. Out came the tomato juice for everyone,
except me. I sat there quietly. Next came the fruit cup; everyone but me
got one and still I behaved myself. Third came the salad and when my
mother exempted me again, Dr. Greathouse looked down at me rather
puzzled so I offered the following explanation: "They feed me the table
scraps."

After that, mom gave me and my brothers money to walk down to a
nearby Burger King whenever we had dignitaries come for dinner.

---

Dr. Greathouse and my father are good friends, and I get to enjoy the
crumbs of that from time to time.

Mark

Edith K. Thurmond
9th December 2005, 11:11 AM (11:11)
There is a struggle going on, and somehow we need to be able to keep our perspective and try to be patient on both sides. Glenn

Glenn, the tension of which Mark speaks is not only in the church; it pervades many areas of society. I work in the area of historic preservation and that struggle can be seen in any community that has an active Historic Sites commission. Without an active group seeking diligently to preserve/restore some edifices of a community, the 'old' will inevitably be demolished or lay in ruin. It is incredible what can be accomplished when people strive to retain the best of the old and implement the best of the new. Politics gets involved in the preservation efforts much the same way it does in the church. :)

Advent blessings+

Gary Swartzlander
9th December 2005, 11:31 AM (11:31)
I would add one more to the list. Changes often cause turmoil because the reasons and benefits of change are often not communicated well. Many times sound reasoning gets lost when the thought behind it isn't shared either well enough or often enough. In addition no matter how hard something is communicated those on the other end have to be willing to have open ears and mind. None of this guarantees any level of agreement, but should preserve a level of understanding that makes for a smooth transition what ever the final decision might be.

Hans Deventer
9th December 2005, 12:44 PM (12:44)
After that, mom gave me and my brothers money to walk down to a
nearby Burger King whenever we had dignitaries come for dinner.


Seems this tradition of having a seven course dinner when there are guest didn't really catch on with you, did it, Mark? :basic03

Hans Deventer
9th December 2005, 12:47 PM (12:47)
I would add one more to the list. Changes often cause turmoil because the reasons and benefits of change are often not communicated well.

True! Right now, there is a splendid example of that. They are building a high speed railroad between Lyon in France and Turin in Italy, straight through the Alps. The French informed the inhabitants of the French valleys about the plans and the people their support it, also because of environmental issues.
The Italians didn't tell anybody in their valleys but just before they started, and their people are in turnmoil, demonstrating and protesting, because of environmental issues!!!

Marsha Lynn
9th December 2005, 04:23 PM (16:23)
I awoke this morning with a hymn in my mind:

Holy Spirit, Love Divine
Shine within this heart of mine
Cast down every idol throne
Reign Supreme and reign alone.

Then I sighed a deep sigh and said to my wife who was still cocooned in our bed, "that song is lost to [most of] our church today."

But it certainly doesn't have to be.

A few years ago we had a church brainstorming session on various issues, including music. The music suggestions were compiled and brought to the music/worship committee, of which I was a part. They included both "more new songs" and "more old songs". An indulgent chuckle went around the room as people observed that we certainly weren't going to be able to please everyone. Having heard some of the table chatter, I noted that both suggestions actually came from the same group -- the teens. They were ready to move away from our standard fare of campmeeting songs to both newer songs and the old classic hymns of the church.

There are several old hymns we're singing now that I never learned growing up in the Church of the Nazarene, such as "Be Thou My Vision," "My Faith Has Found a Resting Place," "Holy Spirit, Be My Guide," "And Can It Be?" and others that I can't remember offhand. I first heard "My Faith Has Found a Resting Place" sung by an Olivet PR group several years ago and immediately fell in love with it. What a blessing that it's in the new hymnal.

I need no other argument
I need no other creed
It is enough that Jesus died
And that he died for me.

Last week, I was listening to a contemporary Christian musician's (Bryan Duncan) Christmas album and liked the way he combined "What Wondrous Love Is This?" with "What Child Is This?". I thought maybe we (my husband the organist and me the pianist) could do something similar for Sunday's prelude. However, in all the many sources I found for "What Child Is This?" (or Greensleeves), it was always in the key of D min and "What Wondrous Love Is This?" is in E min (or some similar close mismatch) in the hymnal. So I checked our older hymnals knowing that there were several key changes in "Sing to the Lord". It wasn't there at all! My husband confessed that he didn't know it. So we played the CD.

In other words, many of the best of the old songs are being resurrected as new songs. I hope this trend spreads your way if it hasn't.

Marsha

Mark Metcalfe
9th December 2005, 09:45 PM (21:45)
Thanks, Marsha. It is a good tangent.

I just want to be clear that my base note has less to do with music
in the church than it does meaning (of anything in the church) to
the church. Certainly I find a lot of meaning in some of the hymns,
and the ones you indicated are precious.

Mark

Gina Stevenson
9th December 2005, 11:21 PM (23:21)
... Bryan Duncan. 'Heard one song from his Christmas album the other day/night, and it was really bluesy/jazzy-styled. Is his whole Christmas album sort of like that, or rather conventional, like a lot are found to be?? If his entire Christmas album were done in the style of the one I heard the other night, think I'd not mind having it! ;)

thanks for the info, Marsha.

Marsha Lynn
10th December 2005, 10:24 AM (10:24)
I just want to be clear that my base note has less to do with music in the church than it does meaning (of anything in the church) to
the church.

Well, just change my final statement then to read:

In other words, many of the best of the old traditions are being resurrected as new traditions. I hope this trend spreads your way if it hasn't.

In multiple settings, my kids keep digging thru my discards and picking out stuff I'm ready to toss and polishing it up as heirlooms. I think if we allow the next generation a voice in the future of the church, they will not toss nearly so much as we fear they will. They might come up with something we could call "ancient-future" worship and teach their own children much more about reverence and the mystic otherness of God than we taught them.

I like what you wrote about 'rites of passage'. I will think on that further.

Thanks.

Marsha

Mark Metcalfe
10th December 2005, 12:03 PM (12:03)
I think that there is a significant lack of understanding around the
necessity of transition from one mode to another. ...proper respect should be shown the passing of one to better embrace the future. ...[it] is important psycholoically to make such transitions, because abrupt change is traumatic and leads to frictions. ...I think we need to become better at "rites of passage."


A ritual becomes legalistic when it is performed without communicating the
meaning (often because the meaning is thought the so well-know that it
does not bear repeating). This is how gift-giving at Christmas time has
become derided for its commercialism, for example; it has become a
perfunctory act for some, sucking the joy from the blessing of giving.

Rites of passage are related to rituals but instead refer to change rather
than perpetuation.

I am a bit embarrased that my source for this thought came from Joseph
Campbell who talked about the need for rituals. He spoke of the transition
from boy to man in tribes of Africa, in Judaism (bar mitzva), and in other
cultures as well. The correlating criticism, especially of American culture,
but perhaps in most modern cultures is the lack of passages. Boy and
girls don't know when to "grow up" except by the examples of adults.
So in hedonistic environs, being an adult might be losing ones virginity.
By contrast of cultures, the Jewish Bar Mitzvah signifies the beginning
of religious responsibility. Becoming a "man" is identified through cultural
reference. Losing ones virginity and becoming religiously responsible
are light years apart, and yet a person may assume the identity - if
not the behaviors - of being an adult. What this means is that the context
and culture we create (or accept) is critically important to the development
and perpetuation of the faith and values.

Mark