Would you go to church if...

[Eric Frey]

If your church planned Christmas morning worship to celebrate the incarnation, would you attend?

I have some reflections, but I will not post them yet. Let's see what you all think.

[Gary Swartzlander]

The answers should probably be; yes, but or no, but.

The answer is much more complicated than just if we would or would not attend. We head out of town early every Christmas to one of our parents homes, if we were in town with appropriate time, etc., we'd probably be there, but maybe not. I answered No.

[Bruce Griffis]

No, I would not.

But I would attend a midnight service if my kids were safe.

[Bob Evans]

In the name of honoring the sabboth I would. I don't think the every 7th day is an accident. It fits the rythem and pattern of my life. And besides next to easter I am not sure I can think of a better day to go to church.

[Gina Stevenson]

No, I would not.

But I would attend a midnight service if my kids were safe.

Speaking of "midnight services," we heard how neat this one was decades ago, so a friend & I decided to go to it. "Midnight service," right? Well, we took it literally ... who wouldn't? [perhaps those who would think ahead far enough to call to make sure of what they'd heard] So, we get there just before midnight, and it seemed that it had been going on awhile; sure enough, in a couple of minutes everyone gets up to leave! Their "midnight service" did not begin at midnight ... it ended at midnight! DUH! :rolleyes:

[Cindi Hammons]

There was no mention of SUNDAY in the survey. It said Christmas morning...this could be any day of the week.

My answer is "no, but..." It depends.

[David Pettigrew]

It's funny that this used to be the ONLY thing you did on Christmas.

I would definitely go. My wife and I attend midnight Christmas Eve worship at whatever Episcopal church we are closest to. It makes the season for me.

I'm greatly looking forward to 2011 and 2016 - the next two times that Christmas falls on a Sunday.

[Marsha Lynn]

If your church planned Christmas morning worship to celebrate the incarnation, would you attend?

Huh? Who in "my church" would plan such a thing? It would take planners who thought it was a good idea and attenders who expressed their agreement by attending. And in a small church, the planners would be generating an unavoidable sense of duty on the prospective attenders. Those who wanted to be elsewhere would be forced to either succumb to the pressure or overcome it. Many would be caught between their loyalty to the church and the expectations of extended family.

I think we're pretty united on the idea of not obligating people's time on Christmas morning other than maybe doing something in the rare year when Christmas falls on Sunday. Even our Christmas Eve service is presented as totally voluntary and involves recruiting as few "workers" as possible.

So my answer is ... IF my church had a Christmas morning service, my first concern would be trying to figure out why anyone felt compelled to plan it and how much stress it was causing. I'm not sure what explanation of a reason to have it and how it was not causing family problems would entice me to get dressed for church on Christmas morning and spend some time at church.

I'm glad I won't face that question. We will go to the Christmas eve service at 7 pm the night before. However, if we had family obligations, we wouldn't stay in town just to be there.

Marsha

[Donna Adams]

If we can't take an hour or so to go to church to celebrate the KINGS birthday, we are too busy! I would go in a heart beat, Eric.

[Hans Deventer]

If your church planned Christmas morning worship to celebrate the incarnation, would you attend?

That's a weird question! I've attended Christmas morning services as long as I can remember. In fact, I never heard of a Dutch church that did not have a service on Christmas morning.

[Barbara Moulton]

I have attended in the past. I may attend in the future.

"yes" or "no" doesn't cut it for me.

[Meghan Schoonover]

I grew up attending on Christmas Day. We had many, many more people out on Christmas Eve, but the "regulars" showed up on Christmas. I always liked it. We opened presents on Christmas Eve since that was my German grandfather's tradition, so Christmas Day I had a stocking, went to church, and came back for a feast. :)

[Eric Frey]

That's a weird question! I've attended Christmas morning services as long as I can remember. In fact, I never heard of a Dutch church that did not have a service on Christmas morning.

I never heard of an American Nazarene church that HAD one. This is why I asked.

[Edith K. Thurmond]

It's funny that this used to be the ONLY thing you did on Christmas.

I would definitely go. My wife and I attend midnight Christmas Eve worship at whatever Episcopal church we are closest to. It makes the season for me.



Same here as it does add so much to the reason for the season.

That's a weird question! I've attended Christmas morning services as long as I can remember. In fact, I never heard of a Dutch church that did not have a service on Christmas morning.

Han, it must have something to do with that American rebellion thing Ian has spoken of so frequently. :basic01

I never heard of an American Nazarene church that HAD one. This is why I asked.

Probably not but the churches that have direct connections from the Old World certainly do: Catholics, Lutherans, Anglicans, etc.

Blessings,

[Ryan Scott]

If I was in town for the holidays, I would go. Although, I'd hope it wouldn't be too early in the morning. A 10:30 or 11:00am service would be a great addition to Christmas Day.

I've always wondered why we (as in evangelical America) have taken to moving our celebration of religious days to the closest Sunday. There's very few religious holidays that fall during the week. Would it kill us to show up for a special celebration on special days?

[Alisa Stoll]

When Christmas fell on a Sunday, our staff let the congregation know that the same service would be offered Christmas eve and Christmas morning so you could attend which ever fit your schedule and the staff didn't have to plan multiple services. They also did the same for New Year's eve and New Year's day.

As to whether I would attend - probably because my family situation does not require massive travel that day - at least at the moment.

Some of the answers bother me from the perspective of implying that person is less spiritual if their answer is no. The Pharisees were in synagogue every time there was a service but their heart wasn't right. So I wouldn't base someone's spiritual condition by church attendance on anyday. Some who answer no may well keep Jesus at the front of their family celebration by reading scripture and singing carols. And that may mean much more than the person who sits in the pew thinking about all the things that need to be done because they are being a good Christian and spent the time at church.

Alisa

[Roland Hearn]

Like Hans in Australia every Christian would go to church on Christmas morning and for most people it was the only day of the year they would go to church. As a pastor trying to reach a changing generation I instigated Christmas eve services because I noticed that increasingly people where heading out of town for Christmas. Our Christmas Eve services were always well attended but to answer your question, most likely I would go if my church was having a Christmas Day service because I would be the pastor.

[Cindi Hammons]

This is a loaded question where anyone who answers in the negative sense is "guilty" of not loving God enough, or not being dedicated enough, etc. Our family attends a Christmas Eve service on the 24th, and then place Baby Jesus in the creche' on Christmas morning. Are we any less Christian for attending on Christmas Eve or worshipping at home instead of in a brick and morter building on Christmas day? I understand what Marcia is saying...as someone who played the piano at church for a long time and was "guilted" into doing a ton of stuff that God never told me to do.

Anyways...the age old question...nobody really knows when His birthday is anyways. Do you think that He even cares? As Ryan says, just my 2 cent's worth.

[Anne and Dwayne Hood]

Yes, I would attend if our pastor and people wanted to have a service on Christmas morning.
But, when Christmas came on Sundays, Dwayne would be there to serve communion from 10 a.m. until noon, with carols playing in the background. I went to that.
The last time I attended a Christmas Eve service, I caught my hair on fire.

[Hans Deventer]

I never heard of an American Nazarene church that HAD one.

Really! I never knew. Gracious, I've been writing on NazNet for something like 8 years, emailing with Americans much longer, and I never knew you didn't have a church service on Christmas morning. Amazing.

[Meghan Schoonover]

I don't think people are implying that others are "less than" for not attending/not wanting to attend. I'm certainly not! But it is surprising to me that it doesn't even cross the radar for people, simply b/c of the way I was raised.

[Hal Paul]

We live a long way from family, so every Christmas is travel time for someone. Marsha Lynn pretty much summed up my feelings. My initial though about the service was about the work it would entail to put together and that most of the workers would be busy with other Christmas obligation. I understand the idea of gathering to worship, to celebrate Christ's birth, but we usually have a Christmas eve celebration to do that, so I'm not so sure that there would be many who would attend on Christmas morning.

If someone were to plan a special service on Christmas, and I was home, I might attend, if my visiting relatives wanted to go. I expect however, that with all the preparation necessary for Christmas dinner several family members would choose to stay home, in which case the rest of us would also choose to not go to church.

I remember discussing the idea of a Christmas service one time during a church board meeting. We did a quick around the table survey to see who would be out of town, and at least half the board was going to be gone. Of those that were staying, most were going to have family visiting, or had family obligations in the local area. Since we were the ones who would have been recruiting workers and planning and organizing the service, we quickly decided not to have a Christmas service.

[Mike Schutz]

It seems to me that the issues here center around tradition and culture. If you have been raised in a church tradition with a Christmas day service, than it is the most sensible thing in the world. If not, than you see the potential for transplanting other activities that are an important aspect of the celebration.

In some ways it is similar to going to church on New Year's Eve. I was raised in a tradition where this was part of everyone's celebration, and so I expected it to be a part of my adult life.

When I became a pastor, I was surprised to find that no one under 50 had ever gone to church on New Year's Eve, and couldn't understand the value of it. And those over 50 didn't want to be out late at night (after dark). We tried it for one year and gave up.

American culture also has an understanding of family that is different than other cultures. When my wife played on the worship team for the Cantonese congregation in Quincy, MA, we were invited to all of their fellowship events. They would have all day celebrations for every holiday, including Christmas and Easter. They could not imagine staying home with just your family when you could be partying with your entire church. Of course, every time we were with Rev. Sam Chung and the members of that congregation, it was a party!

[Wilson L. Deaton]

Really! I never knew. Gracious, I've been writing on NazNet for something like 8 years, emailing with Americans much longer, and I never knew you didn't have a church service on Christmas morning. Amazing.

Many American churches actually cancel service on years that Christmas falls on a Sunday!

Wilson

[Bruce Carriker]

...I never knew you didn't have a church service on Christmas morning. Amazing.

Conflicts with Santa Claus, opening presents, meals with family, football games.

On the one hand, I agree that this is a "trick question", as Cindy said. But on the other hand, I really wonder why anything else would take priority over worship on Christmas Day.

The Episcopal Church where I attend usually has two services on Christmas morning, one at 8, one at 10. Neither of them last more than an hour. For me, there is something special and essential to celebrating the Eucharist on holy days, and Christmas is the second holiest day of the Christian year.

[Anne and Dwayne Hood]

Where I was raised in SC, we had New Year's Eve services, and Sunrise services on Easter, but not Christmas Eve services or service on Christmas morning.

[Eric Frey]

Thank you all for participating. I posted the poll for a couple of reasons. First, I am a pastor and would love to have Christmas morning service. I am trying to gauge people's views outside of my community to go along with my inquesting in my parish.

Second, my question wash partially in response to a perceived concern I have. On the one hand I hear so many of us complain about the secularization and commercialization of Christmas. On the other, most I talk to balk at the idea of going to church on Christmas. It seems it is important for Christmas to be kept Christian, but often not important enough for us to keep it Christian. If it weren't bad enough that we cancel Lord's Day morning services when they fall on Christmas, now we are cancelling services on the 23rd to accomodate services on the 24th.

I have digressed, and I apologize. Thank you all for your participation. Your responses were very helpful and insightful. The final poll was 26 to 6 in favor of attending worship on Christmas, but the tone of the discussion seems a lot less lopsided.

Thanks again. May the peace of Christ be with you all.

Eric

[Sara Sheppard]

If we can't take an hour or so to go to church to celebrate the KINGS birthday, we are too busy! I would go in a heart beat, Eric.

I think "an hour or so " is an over simplification. Our Christmas mornings are very restful and relaxing and we usually don't get showered/dressed until sometime around noon or after while we enjoy some of our favorite holiday foods. We casually open gifts, eat snacks, tell stories, take pictures, and of course share the Christmas story. This is followed by a late afternoon Christmas dinner. If we are to be at church for a 10:00 service, it would require leaving the house no later than 9:30 and that would mean putting 8 people through the 2 bathrooms in our house so folks would have to be up and moving no later than 7:00 at the latest - probably 6:30 and I don't know of any service that last only 1 hour so it would likely be 11:30 before its over and another 1/2 hour back to the house. So, all total we've now gone from a relaxing/restful/family day WITH family worship time together and traded that in for 2.5 hours of stress getting people through the bathrooms and out the door, 1 hour of driving, and 1.5 hours of corporate worship. And the men in our family would be starving now b/c they would not have had any breakfast - so my sister, my mom, and I would spend the next hour hurrying around in the kitchen to get lunch on the table for the hungry men.

Don't get me wrong, I think celebrating Jesus's birthday is worth the effort. However, I personally believe that families can celebrate the Christ's birth at home in their PJ's around the tree with coffee & cinnamon rolls just as meaningfully. In fact, I think our heavenly father is probably very pleased to see families gathered together around HIS word on that day.

Now, I do love to attend a Christmas Eve service and don't find so much "rush" in that event. I find it very peaceful and worshipful and sets my spirit in tune for the celebration of birth of our Lord.

So...given the choice, my choice would be NO. :eek:

Sara

[Barbara Moulton]

Conflicts with Santa Claus, opening presents, meals with family, football games.

On the one hand, I agree that this is a "trick question", as Cindy said. But on the other hand, I really wonder why anything else would take priority over worship on Christmas Day.

The Episcopal Church where I attend usually has two services on Christmas morning, one at 8, one at 10. Neither of them last more than an hour. For me, there is something special and essential to celebrating the Eucharist on holy days, and Christmas is the second holiest day of the Christian year.

Nothing should take priority over worshiping Christ at anytime, not just Christmas Day. But I happen to think that worship can take place in many places...not just the church.

I feel the church has too many things that we need to be concerned about, to spend a lot of time looking around at our brothers and sisters and evaluating their spirituality by whether they go to church on Christmas Day. (I know that wasn't the purpose of this thread but it seems when we start discussing different practices and preference that type of evaluative mindset starts to develop.)

[Bruce Griffis]

I have to agree with Sara on this one.

I also have to wonder about getting people to help during a Christmas service. My son is the head altar server at our church, and out of 3600 people that regularly attend over a weekend (Saturday 5:30 PM, Sunday 7:00, 9:00, 10:45AM, 12:30 and 5:30PM English-speaking Masses) - he has a very hard time getting just two or three altar servers on special days like Easter vigil, Easter day, Thanksgiving, Christmas vigil, New Years vigil and New Years mass. You would think out of 3600 people, and out of over 100 trained altar servers, there would be no problem. We only need two, maybe three if there will be incense.

Not saying the Church of the Nazarene is similar - but I would wonder how many people would show up early to greet, to be ushers, to help set up and to clean up after service. I know my son has served several masses were he simply could not get anyone to commit to be there, and those that said they would - didn't show. Too much of that causes burn-out for those that do serve.

I just wonder if the number of people you expect to come, and the number of people that commit to coming would be close to the number that are actually in the pews.

That said - I would want to be there. I would mean to be there. I would have every intention of being there. But in reality, I would probably be making breakfast or Christmas dinner, or be elbows deep in dishwater.

[Bruce Griffis]

And now I have egg on my face!

The Catholic church I used to attend does have mass on Christmas day (as well as a vigil mass). Since I haven't gone to it - I'd have to say no - I wouldn't go.

[Hal Paul]

I think "an hour or so " is an over simplification. Our Christmas mornings are very restful and relaxing and we usually don't get showered/dressed until sometime around noon or after while we enjoy some of our favorite holiday foods. We casually open gifts, eat snacks, tell stories, take pictures, and of course share the Christmas story. This is followed by a late afternoon Christmas dinner. If we are to be at church for a 10:00 service, it would require leaving the house no later than 9:30 and that would mean putting 8 people through the 2 bathrooms in our house so folks would have to be up and moving no later than 7:00 at the latest - probably 6:30 and I don't know of any service that last only 1 hour so it would likely be 11:30 before its over and another 1/2 hour back to the house. So, all total we've now gone from a relaxing/restful/family day WITH family worship time together and traded that in for 2.5 hours of stress getting people through the bathrooms and out the door, 1 hour of driving, and 1.5 hours of corporate worship. And the men in our family would be starving now b/c they would not have had any breakfast - so my sister, my mom, and I would spend the next hour hurrying around in the kitchen to get lunch on the table for the hungry men.

Don't get me wrong, I think celebrating Jesus's birthday is worth the effort. However, I personally believe that families can celebrate the Christ's birth at home in their PJ's around the tree with coffee & cinnamon rolls just as meaningfully. In fact, I think our heavenly father is probably very pleased to see families gathered together around HIS word on that day.

Now, I do love to attend a Christmas Eve service and don't find so much "rush" in that event. I find it very peaceful and worshipful and sets my spirit in tune for the celebration of birth of our Lord.

So...given the choice, my choice would be NO. :eek:

Sara

Hey! You just described how my family spends Christmas. Are we related?

[Donna Adams]

I have a strong feeling that "most" families are not gathered around HIS word on Christmas day..more around the tree and gifts and food. Since I live fairly close to Eric's church and if he has the service, we just might attend his church that morning.

[Barbara Moulton]

I have a strong feeling that "most" families are not gathered around HIS word on Christmas day..more around the tree and gifts and food.

You are probably right. But I don't think there is anything wrong with that. If we have honoured Christ throught the season and indeed, throughout the year, in worship and compassionate service to others, I think God rejoices with us when we rejoice in celebration with our families and friends.

[Meghan Schoonover]

You know, Donna brings up a good point. I've often gone to other church's services when mine doesn't have one (Good Friday, Ash Wednesday services). In fact, that's how I ended up at the Episcopal Church in town this last year...I wanted to go to an Ash Wednesday service and got the time of the Lutherans' service wrong (I heard the pastor preaching so didn't go in) and thought, "Hmmm, who else would have a service? Aha! Episcopals and Catholics." Episcopals were closer so I joined them. It was wonderful and intimate and even though I was late the priest offered to commune me privately afterwards, for which I was very grateful. And they were glad to have a new face and someone who can sing LOUDLY. LOL! Wonder if they're having something tonight for the first Advent service. :D

[Anne and Dwayne Hood]

You know, I don't beleive Christ is upset with us, when we take time off to be with our families. There are very few times that we, personally, are able to have all of them together, at once. We are all Christians, and His name is magnified in our gatherings.
When we are together, even having fun, we still have Christ with us, and in our actions, one to another-even if we are just teasing, a little.
The main times that we are able for all 13 of us to get together is Thanksgiving and Christmas. It is so hard, at times, to work around work schedules, and in laws schedules, to actually have a time with all of us together.
Our granddaughter had to work second shift Thanksgiving Day, and is going to work that shift Christmas Day. She came over here Friday for me to fix her left over food, from our meal. We attend four different churches, and just as we did for Thanksgiving, Dwayne will read God's word to us and pray when we gather. So, we really are gathering in His name.

[Marsha Lynn]

Second, my question wash partially in response to a perceived concern I have. On the one hand I hear so many of us complain about the secularization and commercialization of Christmas. On the other, most I talk to balk at the idea of going to church on Christmas. It seems it is important for Christmas to be kept Christian, but often not important enough for us to keep it Christian.

Personally, I complain more about the spiritualization of the most secular and commercial season of the year. If you'd like to wade through a rather lengthy rant on the subject, you can find it here (http://marshalyn.blogspot.com/2005_11_01_archive.html).

:cs01

[Mike Wooldridge]

I don't know. I hope to be at my parents' house and I don't know what their plans are. The only time I can remember I can remember going to church on Christmas morning is when it was on Sunday.

[Laurie Florence]

I always go to church Christmas Eve. I wouldn't want to miss it. Christmas day, I spend with family and close friends. I think this still honours God. Besides, December 25 is also my husband's birthday. We have lots of celebrating to do! :)

[Mike McVey]

Reading over this discussion, my heart saddened a little bit. Part of it is that I am in a contemplative mood, so what I read comes out blaring.

The commercialization of Christmas is more than the lie of Santa Claus; it includes the lie of family time. There are so few Holy Days anymore, we treat them as time to spend with the family. The reason why we celebrate these days is because they are to be celebrated together as the body of Christ. I really believe that the church is my family, not my biological and marital relations. So yes, I would spend time with my family at the Christmas Day service.

It doesn't really take a lot of planning. Have someone read the Gospel account of Christ's birth, serve Eucharist, and pray. Fifteen to thirty minutes, tops. If you think that fifteen minutes is not worth the commute to church, sing a few songs, have people share stories impromptu, and pray longer.

We will not be doing a Christmas Day service this year... at least not completely. We will be doing a Christmas Eve service that ends on Christmas Day. I figure if I keep people up past midnight, they don't need to be up at the church the next morning. But if they want to come, they can and we will read the gospel, pray, and serve Eucharist.

[Meghan Schoonover]

The lie of family time? What do you mean by that?

[Cindi Hammons]

I am a pastor and would love to have Christmas morning service. I am trying to gauge people's views outside of my community to go along with my inquesting in my parish.

If I were you, I would have this discussion with the people who really matter related to your concern...your church board who can give you insight into the opinions of your congregation.

[Barbara Moulton]

The lie of family time? What do you mean by that?

Yes...inquiring minds would like to know.

[Mark Doble]

Probably not cause that has always been a busy time with family and we are usually away from our home town.

[Roy Richardson]

It's funny that this used to be the ONLY thing you did on Christmas.

I would definitely go. My wife and I attend midnight Christmas Eve worship at whatever Episcopal church we are closest to. It makes the season for me.

I'm greatly looking forward to 2011 and 2016 - the next two times that Christmas falls on a Sunday.

We attend a Christmas Eve service at the Lutheran church where my kids go to school. It starts at 7. Our former church insisted on starting their Christmas eve service at 10, which makes it rough on people with small kids.

[David Pettigrew]

Reading over this discussion, my heart saddened a little bit. Part of it is that I am in a contemplative mood, so what I read comes out blaring.

The commercialization of Christmas is more than the lie of Santa Claus; it includes the lie of family time. There are so few Holy Days anymore, we treat them as time to spend with the family. The reason why we celebrate these days is because they are to be celebrated together as the body of Christ. I really believe that the church is my family, not my biological and marital relations. So yes, I would spend time with my family at the Christmas Day service.

It doesn't really take a lot of planning. Have someone read the Gospel account of Christ's birth, serve Eucharist, and pray. Fifteen to thirty minutes, tops. If you think that fifteen minutes is not worth the commute to church, sing a few songs, have people share stories impromptu, and pray longer.

We will not be doing a Christmas Day service this year... at least not completely. We will be doing a Christmas Eve service that ends on Christmas Day. I figure if I keep people up past midnight, they don't need to be up at the church the next morning. But if they want to come, they can and we will read the gospel, pray, and serve Eucharist.

I'm still on a we try to do too much stuff (http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php?t=16316) kick. However, I would gladly cash in a year of often exhausting Sunday night services and spend that time with my family in exchange for a morning service at Christmas. To me, it would be trading a category 4 event for a category 1 event (http://www.naznet.com/community/showpost.php?p=149116&postcount=18), which is a no brainer to me.

[Eric Frey]

If I were you, I would have this discussion with the people who really matter related to your concern...your church board who can give you insight into the opinions of your congregation.

Hence "to go along with my inquesting at my church"

[Eric Frey]

We attend a Christmas Eve service at the Lutheran church where my kids go to school. It starts at 7. Our former church insisted on starting their Christmas eve service at 10, which makes it rough on people with small kids.

or especially formative for them.

[Eric Frey]

I'm still on a we try to do too much stuff (http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php?t=16316) kick. However, I would gladly cash in a year of often exhausting Sunday night services and spend that time with my family in exchange for a morning service at Christmas. To me, it would be trading a category 4 event for a category 1 event (http://www.naznet.com/community/showpost.php?p=149116&postcount=18), which is a no brainer to me.

Absolutely

[Barbara Moulton]

I'm still on a we try to do too much stuff (http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php?t=16316) kick. However, I would gladly cash in a year of often exhausting Sunday night services and spend that time with my family in exchange for a morning service at Christmas. To me, it would be trading a category 4 event for a category 1 event (http://www.naznet.com/community/showpost.php?p=149116&postcount=18), which is a no brainer to me.

We have no Sunday night services and no Christmas Day services.

So I don't have to do an exchange. :)

[Mike McVey]

The lie of family time? What do you mean by that?

Maybe I should of said myth of family time? As soon as I read your response, I cringed. I knew I should have been more clear. Sorry.

I believe our families are very important. I believe spending time with our families is very important. Something has changed in the past 1700 years or so where we identified the Body of Christ (both local and universal) as our family instead of biology and marriage. Around the same time that the church went from being persecuted to persecutor, family has taken up possibly the highest priority in many homes that proclaim Christ. We are so identified by secular calendars that we look at the Holy Days of the church (and really I'm only meaning Christmas and Easter, though there are plenty others that deserve some more recognition) as days to spend primarily with family, as in bio-marital. Maybe I'm the only one that struggles with this in conjunction with Jesus' words about family. If I am, just tell me to shut-up. The particular passage I'm thinking of is when Jesus' mother and brothers is trying to see him and he says that these, his disciples, are his mother and brothers. I see my family as the church. I do not say that flippantly, nor do I mean it anywhere near as harsh as it probably sounds. I hope that at least makes sense of what I said, though I dread people questioning what I am now saying. :gen03 :fun15 :love)

More on this in my response to Dave.

[Barbara Moulton]

The particular passage I'm thinking of is when Jesus' mother and brothers is trying to see him and he says that these, his disciples, are his mother and brothers.

I think of the passage of Scripture when Jesus was hanging on the cross. He seemed very much aware of the needs of one particular family member.

[Mike McVey]

I'm still on a we try to do too much stuff (http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php?t=16316) kick. However, I would gladly cash in a year of often exhausting Sunday night services and spend that time with my family in exchange for a morning service at Christmas. To me, it would be trading a category 4 event for a category 1 event (http://www.naznet.com/community/showpost.php?p=149116&postcount=18), which is a no brainer to me.

I read your two entries before starting this response. I read some of the things your church has planned in December and that's great. I don't completely agree with you as far as low resource, negative impact -- and I assume that is what you are referring to for a Christmas Day service? At least that's the context you shaped your response to me.

My major frustration to this thread is the compromise between tradition and traditionalism. You mention Sunday evening services and how you would gladly trade them. I can't speak to Denison, TX and what's going on there, but I can speak of almost every church that I have been apart of that had Sunday night services did it because we are supposed to. The same was/is true for whatever midweek services the church might have provided. Plainly, this is traditionalism. The purpose for Sunday evening services initially was that after the morning service, the people were to go around and witness the gospel and bring as many unsaved back as possible for an evangelistic service that night. For many, Sunday evening is just another opportunity for people to hear a sermon that is not nearly as well prepared as the morning one. I am not against Sunday evening services, but here it is not beneficial as it is just doing something to be doing something. I am curious what your resource/impact scale is for weekly Sunday evening services. I would love to hear someone else under 40 say that Sunday nights mean something to them.

Also, I think this is a relevant time to talk about any celebrations the church has in holiday perspective. Many churches pick one of the military days be it the 4th, Memorial Day, Veterans Day, or another, and has a big day of celebration singing patriot American songs. There is much planning and expense put forth. Maybe I'm wrong, but I kinda think those days are better to spend with family. Why can't we do something simple on Christmas Day? I'm not saying cantatas. I'm saying Gospel, prayer, and Eucharist. If I were to err on doing something to be doing something, this seems to be about the most legitimate way of doing something. Besides there are so many other things that can be scaled back in the church. I don't believe this should be one of them. If people don't come to the event, I understand. But I also understand if no one showed up to church at any event or service. That doesn't change the fact that the service or event would still be offered.

Christmas Day is one of the most selfish days in the US. Whether the selfishness is gifts or family, it is still selfishness. We celebrate the Christmas season for specific reasons as Christians. The US or other parts of the world might give the day off because of family, but that is not why we celebrate Christmas. A lot of people have talked about doing a Christmas Eve service, and I assume most are talking about a night time service. If people don't want to wake up early, then why not have a Christmas night service? To me the time of day is of little importance.

[Mike McVey]

I think of the passage of Scripture when Jesus was hanging on the cross. He seemed very much aware of the needs of one particular family member.

Jesus was always aware of the needs of many particular people, family or not. But even to use your example, she came to the Good Friday service - hence her family was found in the context of the community of disciples.

[David Pettigrew]

I read your two entries before starting this response. I read some of the things your church has planned in December and that's great. I don't completely agree with you as far as low resource, negative impact -- and I assume that is what you are referring to for a Christmas Day service? At least that's the context you shaped your response to me.



No, I would think of a Christmas day service much like the one you described, which would be low resource, positive impact. It wouldn't take a lot of planning, time, money, or even talent. Just a few folks getting together to worship. I can't imagine that NOT having a positive impact.

So, where do we disagree? Would love to hear your thoughts.

[Mike McVey]

No, I would think of a Christmas day service much like the one you described, which would be low resource, positive impact. It wouldn't take a lot of planning, time, money, or even talent. Just a few folks getting together to worship. I can't imagine that NOT having a positive impact.

So, where do we disagree? Would love to hear your thoughts.

Apparently we don't. My psychic powers must be losing their touch :) My mind is just somewhere else, so I read your post as a threat instead of a confirmation. My bad.

[Pete Vecchi]

I'm the pastor--I'd have to go! :M)

Seriously, when Christmas was on a Sunday a couple of years ago, we had a morning service. I thought it was great.

Unfortunately, with a church that had our highest attendance month in about a year on Sunday mornings this month (we averaged 30 per Sunday morning worship service), I honestly don't think we'd have very many show up for Christmas morning.

What I think we're going to try (I'm still working on it) is have the church open for 3-4 hours on Monday evening for prayer and offer to serve communion to families as they come in.

[Eric Frey]

Pete,

I would humbly suggest you reconsider. I think Eucharist is important, but it is always a body thing, not an individual thing. It is always in the context of corporate worship, not in private devotion. It is always along side of the Word, and never stands alone.

I understand that "drop in" communion is sometimes very popular, but I think we teach our people a less than helpful idea of communion (and even faith) when we remove it from the corporate worship of the church. Take one hour and have a simple word and table service. I think you will find it much more meaningful.

[Pete Vecchi]

Pete,

I would humbly suggest you reconsider. I think Eucharist is important, but it is always a body thing, not an individual thing. It is always in the context of corporate worship, not in private devotion. It is always along side of the Word, and never stands alone.

I understand that "drop in" communion is sometimes very popular, but I think we teach our people a less than helpful idea of communion (and even faith) when we remove it from the corporate worship of the church. Take one hour and have a simple word and table service. I think you will find it much more meaningful.

I agree wholehertedly with the idea of corporate communion. The word communion itself implies community. But I have never done it this way before, and I think that the idea of a lone person "dropping in" is less likely to happen than a family coming in together. That would show the community of family, which is also important.

The other thought I had about this was that even if a person came in alone, it's not really all that different than serving communion to a person who is homebound and can't get to church. I guess I don't see the need to "reconsider" because I plan on doing this as a one-time thing. If I would make it a regular practice everytime we had communion services, then it would be a different story.

IMHO.

[Marsha Lynn]

When I first saw this question, my response was something along the lines of "Arghh!! Another obligatory commitment during the Christmas season?" It wasn't difficult for me to trace that reaction back to the years when my longstanding negative attitude toward Christmas first developed. We were torn between family expectations, unable to be two places at the same time (three after the kids came along and 'home for Christmas' entered as an option) and unable to shake off the guilt of disappointing our parents by not showing up for Christmas. (There is more baggage behind the negative attitude than that, but that's definitely part of it.) Adding a church service to that tug-of-war would have been just one more voice telling me what I 'oughtta' do on Christmas Day. Forget about my own thoughts on the subject. Everything came down to which pressure could manage to overcome all of the others. And those exerting family pressure would not have been at all pleased if we had (once again) chosen church involvement over our long-distance family. It would have primarily been simply another source of guilt.

However, as this thread has developed and the Christmas season has come on, I realize that spending an hour with my church family on Christmas day at this stage in my life actually sounds quite appealing. I like those people. I spent practically the entire day with them yesterday - 9:00 am to 8:00 pm with only about 1 1/2 hours at home in the late afternoon and am looking forward to seeing some of them again tonight at the town Christmas parade.

Since those old days of being ripped apart by the Christmas tug-of-war, things have changed a lot around here. One set of grandparents built a house right behind the church, eliminating one pull to do Christmas road-trips. The kids grew up and now come home for Christmas and are disinclined to do more traveling once they get here. The church typically fills every weekend in December with commitments so we gave up years ago traveling the 260 miles (each way) required to see my mother and brothers during the Christmas season. And life has go on anyway.

Yes, a Christmas service actually sounds appealing now. I had to think about it a bit, but I can now easily imagine it being part of our Christmas tradition. But I know that my pastor and wife will travel to be with their children and grandchildren at "Grandma's house" that day, and I'm glad they're able to do that. Working on weekends makes it hard for them do family get-togethers, and I think we need to give them Christmas day off if they would like to take it. However, the Christmas Eve service has been their idea from the beginning, and it is always a blessing.

In other words, I'm finally ready to cast a vote in the poll and it will be "yes". If someone planned a get-together for my church family on Christmas Day and didn't offend me by making it a guilt-inducing obligation, I would be there 'with bells on'.

Marsha

[David Pettigrew]

In other words, I'm finally ready to cast a vote in the poll and it will be "yes". If someone planned a get-together for my church family on Christmas Day and didn't offend me by making it a guilt-inducing obligation, I would be there 'with bells on'.

Marsha

Now, would the bells be on your hat or your shoes, or (hopefully) both, because I think that would be an attendance incentive for Christmas day worship.

[Marsha Lynn]

Now, would the bells be on your hat or your shoes, or (hopefully) both, because I think that would be an attendance incentive for Christmas day worship.

I wonder where the expression about being someplace "with bells on" came from. Maybe the bells were on the horse's harness?

Having no horse, I guess if we ever have a Christmas service I'll have to do a horseless version of the lady of nursery rhyme fame "upon a white horse, with rings on her fingers and bells on her toes". I do enjoy her happy state of having "music wherever she goes."

I wonder if toe-bells are available online.

:basic03

Marsha

[Alisa Stoll]

I wonder where the expression about being someplace "with bells on" came from. Maybe the bells were on the horse's harness?

Having no horse, I guess if we ever have a Christmas service I'll have to do a horseless version of the lady of nursery rhyme fame "upon a white horse, with rings on her fingers and bells on her toes". I do enjoy with her happy state of having "music wherever she goes."

I wonder if toe-bells are available online?

:basic03

Marsha


I do have a lovely old bracelet that has bells that I could lend you.

Alisa

[Hal Paul]

I wonder where the expression about being someplace "with bells on" came from. Maybe the bells were on the horse's harness?

Having no horse, I guess if we ever have a Christmas service I'll have to do a horseless version of the lady of nursery rhyme fame "upon a white horse, with rings on her fingers and bells on her toes". I do enjoy her happy state of having "music wherever she goes."

I wonder if toe-bells are available online.

:basic03

Marsha

According to this site (http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/19/messages/411.html), you are spot on regarding the origin of the phrase "with bells on." Of course if you wanted to get literal about it, you could wear a pair of these

http://chucksconnection.com/christmaschucks/images/plaidhi02.jpg

[Cindi Hammons]

A little girl at church Sunday had bells on her shoes. Her Mom was working the nursery and had to walk all the way up front to return an unhappy child to his parents. Unfortunately, she was carrying her bell-clad child who jingled with every step forward and back to the nursery! What was her Mamma thinking? :)

[Alisa Stoll]

I knew a fellow whose father was blind at the time of his birth. His parents attatched bells to all of his shoes so his father could keep track of him. Course it didn't take him long to learn that being motionless kept him away from Dad unless Mom was around.

Alisa

[David Pettigrew]

Just as long as they aren't the bells of hell. (http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php?t=14352&highlight=bells+hell)