God, Jesus, prayer and healing [Archive]

Hans Deventer

2nd December 2007, 08:15 AM (08:15)

I've been wrestling with this issue. Let me explain.

When Jesus walked this earth, He seemed to be healing anyone who came to Him, even if only for healing, and if ungrateful afterwards (think of the 10 lepers). Few understood who He was, and considering many still wanted Him crucified after all those miracles, one can say that those miracles didn't work too well for Him. But still, He was moved with compassion, performed them all the same and as such, I believe in Him God's love has become flesh.

But my problem is, if He is God as I believe He is, how come the same God does not behave anymore today like He used to, if we pray for healing?

Then this morning, it dawned to me that Jesus actually didn't pray for healing at all. At least, I don't recall such an instance. (Correct me if I'm wrong, please.) Even when Lazarus was raised from the death, Jesus merely prayed "for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that You sent me" (John 11). Because He Himself "knew that You always hear me". He spoke the word in complete trust and Lazarus came forth.

Now of course Jesus said to His disciples: "As the Father has sent me, I am sending you" (John 20:21). And in fact, that does include healing (Mark 16:15-18).

It seems Peter and John followed their Master's example. When healing the crippled man, they did not call for a prayer meeting, but instead Peter simply said: "Silver or gold I do not have, but what I have I give you. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, walk." Taking him by the right hand, he helped him up, and instantly the man's feet and ankles became strong" (Acts 3:6-7)

So if Jesus did not pray to God the Father in order to heal a person (He sure did pray a lot to the Father, but apparently, not for this), and the disciples didn't feel that need either (Acts 5:12-16), though they themselves prayed a lot too (Acts 6:4), it seems to me that there is something different going on here. And I don't merely want to focus on healing. It seems that both Jesus and the apostles lived with God in such an intimate way that the healings were merely a by-product, so to speak. They seemed to proceed from both the love of God that was/had become the core of their being, and a complete and total trust in Him.

Now I also know that healing is a specific gift (1 Cor 12:27-31) and not all have that gift. Still, it made me realize that it should be that at least one among us (and probably more) should have the gift and be able to act like Jesus and the apostles in this respect.

So what's wrong with us? Or is that question wrong in itself? Any comments?

Randy Wise

2nd December 2007, 08:41 AM (08:41)

Hans, there is nothing wrong with our faith. I certainly have had the Lord pop in and out with power when testifying to the unsaved to know by experience that matches my knowledge that God is fully aware of everything going on in my life. We live by faith. Our eyes haven't seen Jesus or our heavenly Father yet we believe in them. Hebrew 11:1
What we read in the new testament is God laying the foundation of the church, (for all generations), in a world with many so called Gods. The miracles showed to that world the one true God. If you think of suffering in this day and age with our medical advantages think how great that suffering was without the medical advantages. My kidney stone hurt and I was helped with current technology. What would happen to those who had such a stone 2000 years ago? So in a way I see the increase of knowledge as a form of help from above. Now back to Israel how many miracles did they have for healing before Jesus came down to us? Not many in that regard that we know of. I accept that the way we want God to heal is not always the way God chooses to heal as the death of the body is not the death of those in Christ and sooner or later we all die in that regard.

Randy

Ian Gentles

2nd December 2007, 09:11 AM (09:11)

I see Jesus, apostles, as using a "word of power" or command. Now how this all works out, i haven't a clue. Why don't we have this power today? I wonder about this a lot. Yes, there were gifts of healing given to members of the church, I don't think we see these today, is fault ours? or simply something to be explained away? Seems to me, all over, church is seeking to gain back that healing ability, and if is for our day, and i hope it is, whats wrong with us? I still believe we have lost something important in this area. I mentioned that Yancy in his book on Prayer mentions healings in Nepal and China, Napals one's being verified by missionary doctors. Oh dont get me wrong, I believe in medicine, and accept fact we eventually die, that not all would be healed. However to just advocate for the medical side seems to be missing an issues and that is, it certainly would seem, healing power was in churches ministry, and is meant to be. I am still confused by James passage on praying for the sick, and worry we explain it away contrary to what it says.

Ryan Scott

2nd December 2007, 02:55 PM (14:55)

Ian Gentles

2nd December 2007, 03:49 PM (15:49)

I think the most difficult thing is those people who aren't healed. If we're going to believe in a God who heals people in miraculous ways, then we have to believe in a God who doesn't heal some people when God is perfectly capable of doing so.

For me it's less a problem with divine healing than the implications of such for the rest of my belief.

Here we get confused in our thinking, I find it simpler to believe God allows some to die, but dosent want everyone to suffer, and remember we may not be talking about life threatening illnesses. My mom just died at 85 that seemed so natural, but a young person with cancer may not. Also, as quite a few here know there are emotional/depressive illnesses, not life threatening, but life robbing. Interest ling enough Hendriks in his "politics of Jesus" suggests many healed by Jesus suffered from psycho somatic illnesses.
caused my stress of living in that ere Palastine.
However this dosent answer Hans questions, regaurds how Jesus ans apostles healed, and also about healing gifts given to the church. I see no reason in scripture to beleive healing gifts have ceased, my question is why arent they visible. But fall back on a point i raised, not all are healed by renewed health!

Randy Wise

2nd December 2007, 07:48 PM (19:48)

Here we get confused in our thinking, I find it simpler to believe God allows some to die, but dosent want everyone to suffer, and remember we may not be talking about life threatening illnesses. My mom just died at 85 that seemed so natural, but a young person with cancer may not. Also, as quite a few here know there are emotional/depressive illnesses, not life threatening, but life robbing. Interest ling enough Hendriks in his "politics of Jesus" suggests many healed by Jesus suffered from psycho somatic illnesses.
caused my stress of living in that ere Palastine.
However this dosent answer Hans questions, regaurds how Jesus ans apostles healed, and also about healing gifts given to the church. I see no reason in scripture to beleive healing gifts have ceased, my question is why arent they visible. But fall back on a point i raised, not all are healed by renewed health!

I don't think we are confused and I think the question's premise is misguided. I can't see a loving God allowing some to die because He found fault with our prayers. God has other reasons. It was God who made mans body mortal and we all will die and face judgment. How would any die if God healed all that got ill? As Scott brought up how will a loving God explain to His children why He ignored ones prayers and let another live by a miraculous healing? No! What I see is God's grace and loving kindness being poured out on those whom He loves even as their flesh dies and they have hope of eternal life. Can the unbelievers state that? The word of God states that one day in the future there will be no more tears, but in this day we still have our cross of mortal bodies and sufferings of seeing loved ones pass on even though we know by faith we will see them in a little while. I do believe God works for the "Good" of those who love and obey Him.

Randy

Hans Deventer

3rd December 2007, 03:21 AM (03:21)

I don't think we are confused and I think the question's premise is misguided. I can't see a loving God allowing some to die because He found fault with our prayers. God has other reasons.

Randy, it's not about dying. There is no promise or command in the Scriptures that we are to prevent the world from dying. Even the few that were raised from the grave, eventually died. The wages of sin are death, and they still are until the Lord returns. Let that at least be clear.

As to God allowing things to happen because we didn't have enough faith, that seems like an obvious thing to me. Read Matthew 17.

14 When they came to the crowd, a man approached Jesus and knelt before him. 15 "Lord, have mercy on my son," he said. "He has seizures and is suffering greatly. He often falls into the fire or into the water. 16 I brought him to your disciples, but they could not heal him."
17 "O unbelieving and perverse generation," Jesus replied, "how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring the boy here to me." 18 Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of the boy, and he was healed from that moment. 19 Then the disciples came to Jesus in private and asked, "Why couldn't we drive it out?" 20 He replied, "Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."

Here our loving God is downright angry at the disciples for not having enough faith. And indeed, nothing happened until he stepped in Himself.

Ian Gentles

3rd December 2007, 05:43 AM (05:43)

As Hans shows, lack of faith in disciples mean young man wasnt going to be healed had not Jesus been there!!
I find we dont seem to live in Bible teaching on this matter, is this a lack of faith?

Hans Deventer

3rd December 2007, 06:04 AM (06:04)

As Hans shows, lack of faith in disciples mean young man wasnt going to be healed had not Jesus been there!!
I find we dont seem to live in Bible teaching on this matter, is this a lack of faith?

Well, it seems to me that something happened to disciples that made the difference between Matthew 17 and Acts 3:1-10. Actually, and all of Acts.

Now I am aware that God is still God. I mean, He is sovereign. When we read Acts 12, I cannot but presume that the church prayed for James as much as they did for Peter. Yet James was killed and Peter was freed.

So I am careful never to create some system where God will "perform" if we only push the right buttons. That's idolarity.

Yet, there is also some sense in which our faith does play a roll, as seems obvious from Matthew 17 and other places where Jesus is disappointed with the faith of the disciples.

Ian Gentles

3rd December 2007, 06:12 AM (06:12)

My observation is, most it would seem, going to healing services, or being prayed for, receive no healing. This is other side of coin for me, I would at least expect some to receive healing.

Barbara Moulton

3rd December 2007, 07:50 AM (07:50)

Here our loving God is downright angry at the disciples for not having enough faith. And indeed, nothing happened until he stepped in Himself.

This passage of Scripture is not so clear.

On the one hand, He says the disciples didn't have enough faith. But on the other hand He says that all you need is faith the size of a mustard seed. (itty bitty bitty).

And apparently, itty bitty faith gives us the ability to move mountains.

Nobody is moving mountains that I can see....and wasn't in the days of Christ or the early church either.

I've said this many times before. When I look at the fact that so many people pray for healing but aren't healed, either healing is rarely part of God's larger purpose in the world today OR God has perversely decided to set the bar for the "faith that will heal" at some level which is pretty well impossible for anyone to find.

I find the latter option to be totally out of character for everything I know about God so I choose the first option.

Ian Gentles

3rd December 2007, 08:17 AM (08:17)

Barbara Moulton

3rd December 2007, 08:29 AM (08:29)

Mmmmmmm Barbara, dont see it as easy as that. Hans raises a good question. I mean we are told to, well called to pray for sick. OK yes agree we are blessed by modern medicine, in itself an answer to many prayers, but Hans seems, as do i, be grappling with whole question, are spiritual gifts, healing among them, still with us?

I believe that healing still does occur. I believe that we are to follow Scripture and pray for the sick.

But I am faced with the reality that the majority of dear, precious saints aren't healed, even though they pray and pray with great faith. So what do I do with that?

I can start down the road of introspective examination of the quality of their faith or prayers. I can start to critically explore the church of today, looking for the "missing piece" which will explain why we don't experience many miraculous healings.

I could do those things but I choose not to.

If God heals in response to our prayers, I choose to believe that, ultimately, it is for a greater and larger purpose then that somehow that person "got the prayer right".

This position gives me peace.

Hans Deventer

3rd December 2007, 08:34 AM (08:34)

I've said this many times before. When I look at the fact that so many people pray for healing but aren't healed, either healing is rarely part of God's larger purpose in the world today OR God has perversely decided to set the bar for the "faith that will heal" at some level which is pretty well impossible for anyone to find.

I find the latter option to be totally out of character for everything I know about God so I choose the first option.

But I find the first one out of character with Jesus as He walked this earth. I would have to concluded that He showed us God in a way that God actually isn't. I can't go for that option either.

Ian Gentles

3rd December 2007, 08:36 AM (08:36)

I do beleive most prayers for the sick are answered through medicine, if we think about it miracles happen in hospitals, through surgery etc. However question still is, to me, and probably others, what is the Biblical understanding of the prayer of faith for the sick? The James passage confuses me a lot, seems to say different from churches experience.

Ian Gentles

3rd December 2007, 08:39 AM (08:39)

Barbara Moulton

3rd December 2007, 08:46 AM (08:46)

But I find the first one out of character with Jesus as He walked this earth. I would have to concluded that He showed us God in a way that God actually isn't. I can't go for that option either.

Interesting. I don't conclude that at all.

It seems to me that what happened as Christ lived on this earth, reveals that God will give us the resources to accomplish what He wants us to do in the moment, in the context of the life we are living.

The very fact that God chose to walk among us as a human for a brief time in the history of His interaction with us, shows that He is a creative and innovative God. The Incarnation shows us God in human flesh. Why would we assume that all the things that happened as He interacted with this world during those 33 unique years would be His continued method of interacting with this world?

We don't ask that He come and die on the cross for us again do we? The purposes were accomplished once and for all on Calvary.

The Bible tells me that my attitude should be that of Christ. I might not be able to do or accomplish that actual things that Christ did. But that doesn't make God any less for me what He was in Jesus Christ.

Dennis M. Scott

3rd December 2007, 11:01 AM (11:01)

through a glass darkly

Ian Gentles

3rd December 2007, 11:08 AM (11:08)

Ouch, so He didnt mean it, spritual gifts and all. So are we in this day fatalistic?

Hans Deventer

3rd December 2007, 11:15 AM (11:15)

Why would we assume that all the things that happened as He interacted with this world during those 33 unique years would be His continued method of interacting with this world?

I don't. I do assume it shows His character.

We don't ask that He come and die on the cross for us again do we? The purposes were accomplished once and for all on Calvary.

The Bible tells me that my attitude should be that of Christ. I might not be able to do or accomplish that actual things that Christ did.

Why not? He Himself said we would do even greater things. (John 14:12)

But that doesn't make God any less for me what He was in Jesus Christ.

It's not about less, Barbara. It is about who He IS.

Jesus walked this earth and said, "the Father and I are one". "Who has seen Me, has seen the Father". And He was full of compassion, helping people day and night, so much that He really had to retract to quiet places at times, and even there, they followed Him.
The live of Jesus led John to the following testimony in 1 John 1:

1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2 The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. 3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.

I thought the message of the gospel was that the very eternal Life that was in Christ, has now become available to us as well. The very same Spirit. And indeed, that is what we see in Acts.

Of course our medical knowledge has increased immensely, but there are still diseases towards we are as helpless as 1st century Jews. No difference.

Hans Deventer

3rd December 2007, 11:22 AM (11:22)

through a glass darkly

Yes. It isn't easy but I can accept that. However, my concern is, don't we accept what should not be accepted? It seems what the disciples did in Matthew 17 wasn't acceptable behaviour.

Perhaps this isn't a subject for a theological discussion. Perhaps it is only a matter of personal prayer: "Lord, is there a place in my life where I am hindering what you would be willing to do through me?"

Barbara Moulton

3rd December 2007, 11:45 AM (11:45)

Why not? He Himself said we would do even greater things. (John 14:12).

Yes, greater things...not the same things.

It's not about less, Barbara. It is about who He IS. )

I think that's my point. God asks me to surrender my concerns and pray in faith that He will move, not according to my will but His will.

Jesus walked this earth and said, "the Father and I are one". "Who has seen Me, has seen the Father". And He was full of compassion, helping people day and night, so much that He really had to retract to quiet places at times, and even there, they followed Him.

And we can still be channels of Christ's compassion, even without miracles. Thing is, after Jesus went for one of His quiet times, He was invited to remain in the town where he had been. I'm sure there were more people that needed to be healed there. But He said, "I must go somewhere else." Were the people who were left behind "unhealed" when He left, somehow lacking in faith? Or was their a larger purpose at work?

I pray that nothing in me will hinder what God wants to do in and through me. I pray that constantly.

But at some point, I have to simply trust that God will take everything I have surrendered and use it to His honour and glory as He would choose, not always I would wish.

I don't know why there aren't the miracles of healing today...ones like Jesus accomplished in His lifetime and the early Church observed. But I just can't believe that so many millions of us have "got it wrong". That God will heal all those we pray for as He healed before once we get our faith just exactly right. Is it really possible that we are all missing the mark?

Hans Deventer

3rd December 2007, 12:50 PM (12:50)

Yes, greater things...not the same things.

Seems the disciples misunderstood Him, then. (Acts 5:12-17) They apparently mistakenly thought they had to do the same thing as Jesus did. Now of course, for 3 years they never got it, so perhaps, even after Pentecost, they still didn't? Hey, did they got the NT right at all?

I'm sorry, you're wiping away Scriptures that I think you can't.

I think that's my point. God asks me to surrender my concerns and pray in faith that He will move, not according to my will but His will.

Sure. And His will is clear, seeing what Jesus did and what He commands us to do (Mark 16:15-18).

And we can still be channels of Christ's compassion, even without miracles.

Yes we can. But we may wonder if it would be right to so easily dismiss the Lord's command, because it suits our experience better?

Thing is, after Jesus went for one of His quiet times, He was invited to remain in the town where he had been. I'm sure there were more people that needed to be healed there. But He said, "I must go somewhere else." Were the people who were left behind "unhealed" when He left, somehow lacking in faith? Or was their a larger purpose at work?

Well, we don't know if there were any left unhealed. And of course there was a larger purpose at work. I've been saying from the beginning of this thread that healing was a by-product of who Jesus was. It was not His primary goal.

He Himself said that was:

1 The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me,
because the LORD has anointed me
to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
to proclaim freedom for the captives
and release from darkness for the prisoners,
2 to proclaim the year of the LORD's favor

I don't know why there aren't the miracles of healing today...ones like Jesus accomplished in His lifetime and the early Church observed. But I just can't believe that so many millions of us have "got it wrong". That God will heal all those we pray for as He healed before once we get our faith just exactly right. Is it really possible that we are all missing the mark?

Yes, it really is. I actually think this kind of reasoning is dangerous. The Catholics would have said that to Martin Luther, the Anglicans to John Wesley, the Methodist bishops to the early Nazarenes. Yes, it is very well possible that we got it wrong and live below what God has intended for us. In fact, when I look around in my church, that is exactly what I see. With far too few exceptions.

We Nazarenes strive for holiness. Which is good!!!! Don't get me wrong there. Yet, we are also called to desire the gifts of the Spirit (1 Cor 12:31). Seems we're not so good at that, and I would say from reverse reasoning, that if a church like Corinth that was a mess regarding holiness, wasn't lacking in Spiritual gifts, that there apparently is no link between holiness and the gifts of the Spirit. (As is being confirmed daily by leaders in the church that clearly have gifts but mess up morally anyway). So as good as it is to strive for holiness, it's not all there is.

Barbara, I don't want to end up in a fight at all. I'm not pretending I know or understand it all, on the contrary. But I do want to stick to the idea that the Man of Nazareth is actually no different than my Lord and my God. And that the compassion He showed, is indeed God's compassion (John 3:16). That He hasn't changed. And that nobody ever before or after more clearly showed who God is.

Barbara Moulton

3rd December 2007, 01:46 PM (13:46)

Seems the disciples misunderstood Him, then. (Acts 5:12-17) They apparently mistakenly thought they had to do the same thing as Jesus did. Now of course, for 3 years they never got it, so perhaps, even after Pentecost, they still didn't? Hey, did they got the NT right at all? I'm sorry, you're wiping away Scriptures that I think you can't.

But we don't do all the things that Jesus did. We don't even come close. We don't bring back people from the dead, walk on water, change water to wine etc., etc., etc. We need to do all that God wants us to do with the attitude of Jesus Christ. Telling me that I am wiping away Scriptures bothers me Hans. We might interpret Scriptures differently

Sure. And His will is clear, seeing what Jesus did and what He commands us to do (Mark 16:15-18).

Do you really want to bring this Scripture verse up? I am not going to start handling snakes in my church.

Yes we can. But we may wonder if it would be right to so easily dismiss the Lord's command, because it suits our experience better? ).

Easily dismiss? You don't know me very well Hans if you think this is what I have done. Watching my mother dying of cancer broke my heart. Burying children breaks my heart. Visiting palliative patients breaks my heart. Prayers for healing, prayers of faith, prayers of hope. Prayers made but no healing came. So returning to Scriptures in an attempt to understand them. Arriving at a decision that brings me peace in this sorrowful world. That's the best this pilgrim seems to be able to do. I might be on a different spiritual journey than you Hans but it saddens me to hear you say that I am just dismissing the word of God. I would think you would know me better by this time.

I think perhaps I'll exit gracefully from this discussion at this point.

Blessings,
Barbara

Anne and Dwayne Hood

3rd December 2007, 01:48 PM (13:48)

Maybe we are missing it on the prayer and fasting part.

Ian Gentles

3rd December 2007, 02:09 PM (14:09)

I agree with Hans, we need to look deeper not run away from Hans questionj

Hans Deventer

3rd December 2007, 02:10 PM (14:10)

But we don't do all the things that Jesus did. We don't even come close. We don't bring back people from the dead,

Peter did.

walk on water, change water to wine etc.,

Well, we're not commanded to do so, are we?

etc., etc. We need to do all that God wants us to do with the attitude of Jesus Christ. Telling me that I am wiping away Scriptures bothers me Hans. We might interpret Scriptures differently

It feels that way to me, Barbara. But the trouble if of course that it sounds very differently when you and I would talk this over, than when I write it down on NazNet. :basic04

Do you really want to bring this Scripture verse up? I am not going to start handling snakes in my church.

Do you really think that handling snakes is the core meaning of this command???? :eek:

Easily dismiss?

OK, change that into "dismiss after a lot of consideration". I still feel you dismiss them though, as with the above reaction on the verses in Mark.
Perhaps the Scriptures are such that we cannot arrive at any conclusion without dismissing some part of it. I guess we Wesleyans do that as much as Calvinists or Catholics.

You don't know me very well Hans if you think this is what I have done.

Well, exactly because thought I knew you better I couldn't image that the only thing you'd understand from Mark 16:15-18 is that you should be handling snakes! Though Paul in fact did it once (Acts 28:1-6).

Watching my mother dying of cancer broke my heart. Burying children breaks my heart. Visiting palliative patients breaks my heart. Prayers for healing, prayers of faith, prayers of hope. Prayers made but no healing came. So returning to Scriptures in an attempt to understand them. Arriving at a decision that brings me peace in this sorrowful world.

I respect that. And I guess we all have to arrive at our own conclusion. But right now, I cannot arrive at yours. I feel there's something missing, something that both Jesus and the apostles had. And even if I don't understand, I rather have to carry the ache that something in my thinking doesn't rhyme, than be at peace and silencing a voice that I believe I should not silence.

Anyway, this has been a bad subject, apparently. Badly suited for NazNet at least. I'll be thinking about it on my own from this point on. I apologize for introducing it.

Hans Deventer

3rd December 2007, 02:11 PM (14:11)

Maybe we are missing it on the prayer and fasting part.

That might also be an option, Anne. Though not as a method, but as reflective of our relationship with God.

Ian Gentles

3rd December 2007, 02:17 PM (14:17)

OK many want healing, but just seems christian church withdraws from all Hans says, as if we are scared?

Anne and Dwayne Hood

3rd December 2007, 04:13 PM (16:13)

I have heard that the scripture concerning handling snakes was not in the original text. Dr. Ralph Earle taught Greek NT for 50 years. He answered a letter that I wrote to him in 1985, telling me about how the Textus Receptus came about. I was just now checking this letter to see if he mentioned anything aobut Mark 16:18, but he did not. He told how the translation for the KJV was translated from a poor Greek text.
He said that the writers, changed words, and over 800 words used have changed their meaning, and about 200 have the exact opposite meaning now, than they did then.
He said that people will fuss about words that are omitted in the NASB and the NIV, that were not in the original inspired words of God. Dr. Earle helped with the NIV. Dr. Maude Stuneck that taught for years at Trevecca, helped translate the dead sea scrolls.
When Robyn, was small, we were atending a church in Nashville, where Dr. Stuneck
was the children's church pastor. Then, of course we taught her the love of the "Word." When she was 2 1/2 and 3, and 4, etc. instead of coloring, or looking a books, she wanted me to read the scripture to her, that I was reading for devotions. I would ask her if she understood. If not, I explained it to her repeated, trying to lower the age level, until she understood. Many years ago, Dwayne said that she had a better understanding of the Bible than he does. Look who her Children's pastor was duirng those preschool years. She has a great heritage.
She is 46 years of age now, and has had a very deep understand of the Bible for many years.
Someday, I may type Dr. Earle's letter on Naznet for people to copy.

Randy Wise

3rd December 2007, 07:57 PM (19:57)

Randy, it's not about dying. There is no promise or command in the Scriptures that we are to prevent the world from dying. Even the few that were raised from the grave, eventually died. The wages of sin are death, and they still are until the Lord returns. Let that at least be clear.

As to God allowing things to happen because we didn't have enough faith, that seems like an obvious thing to me. Read Matthew 17.

14 When they came to the crowd, a man approached Jesus and knelt before him. 15 "Lord, have mercy on my son," he said. "He has seizures and is suffering greatly. He often falls into the fire or into the water. 16 I brought him to your disciples, but they could not heal him."

17 "O unbelieving and perverse generation," Jesus replied, "how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring the boy here to me." 18 Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of the boy, and he was healed from that moment. 19 Then the disciples came to Jesus in private and asked, "Why couldn't we drive it out?" 20 He replied, "Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."
Here our loving God is downright angry at the disciples for not having enough faith. And indeed, nothing happened until he stepped in Himself.

I have a loving relationship with the Lord as many others do. I have had a firm faith in Jesus since I was a young boy. I am far from alone in this. The Lord has answered many
of my prayers. The scriptures also state if we ask according to His will He hears us. As was already pointed out I don't believe the prayers of many are falling on death ears. I believe the answers given are according to the Lords will not according to the will even of the many. I believe the Lord is giving grace to those who are ill and help in other ways. I will share one experience I had years ago. I was going through a bout of many bad colds. As I was catching another cold I cryed out to the Lord for healing as I didn't want to go through another long cold again. Shortly after that I went to a drug store for something (I don't remember what) but what I do remember was finding myself in front of the cold medicine and at that moment felt a loving touch. It wasn't what I was asking for but I did treasure the Lords love for me.

Randy

Hans Deventer

4th December 2007, 02:18 AM (02:18)

Shortly after that I went to a drug store for something (I don't remember what) but what I do remember was finding myself in front of the cold medicine and at that moment felt a loving touch. It wasn't what I was asking for but I did treasure the Lords love for me.

Thank you for your testimony, Randy. Please, don't let anyone come to the conclusion that I do not value those experiences. I totally do!
Physical healing is not God's primary goal, as I understand the gospel. He seeks our total healing, which will ultimately also be physical but usually starts out with the healing of our relationship with Him, which is of course the eternal life.

Again, thanks for sharing,

Ian Gentles

4th December 2007, 07:50 AM (07:50)

Barbara Moulton

4th December 2007, 08:31 AM (08:31)

I respect that. And I guess we all have to arrive at our own conclusion. But right now, I cannot arrive at yours. I feel there's something missing, something that both Jesus and the apostles had. And even if I don't understand, I rather have to carry the ache that something in my thinking doesn't rhyme, than be at peace and silencing a voice that I believe I should not silence.

I really wanted to answer this Hans (despite what I said about gracefully leaving the thread). I understand what you are saying and if we have those questions we do need to explore them.

But I also think that we need to recognize that everyone is on a different journey with God. I don't have an "....ache in my thinking that something doesn't rhyme." I am at peace but I honestly don't believe it is because I am silencing a voice inside that I shouldn't be silencing.

Ian says that we shouldn't "run away" from your questions. Just because someone leaves a thread, it doesn't mean they are quenching leadings.

I truly am at peace.

Blessings,
Barbara

Barbara Moulton

4th December 2007, 08:42 AM (08:42)

Please folks this is to important a thread to quite on.
Should i pray for the sick, then what should i pray for? I reminding us that we are not neccesarily talking about terminal sickness? Can debilatating illnesses be helped through prayer, even healed? Can cases that confuse medicine be cured? Can depressive illnesses be healed through prayer? Why do we pray for the sick? have healing services, what do we seek? Isnt it that we do beleive somehow that Jesus still heals today? As we carry our sick loved ones to Him in prayer is this any different from the men who lowered their friend through the roof? When i seek prayer, or pray for others, its for healing. Is it God's desire to receive our pleas for mercy and help? Again, forgive me for going on about this, why are people being healed in Nepal? I supose when we are suffering, or have loved ones suffering this subject does become larger, this is natural. If we lived in a land of famine probably God's control of the weather would be our big point as we prayed for rain. What i am saying is, has God's powere been withdrawn from us? does the same Jesus still walk amongst us?
Please keep the thread going.

Goes right back to what we believe prayer is all about. I pray with sick people all the time in the hospital but I don't pray for healing. I believe that if we nurture someone's spirit and help them pray to God, that we are helping them through their illness and often, aiding their recovery time. Helping people find meaning and purpose that transcends their illness..that's a big part of a chaplain's work.

For the record, I never pray that God will change the weather. The weather is what it is. I pray for grace to deal with the weather. If my husband has to drive through a horrific snowstorm, I don't pray that God will protect his car per se. I pray that God will minister to my husband and keep his mind alert to hazards.

It's just the way I am. I have a deep concern right now about something that could happen which would have a negative impact on my family. Everytime it comes to my mind I simply surrender it to God. I don't tell Him what to do, I just say, "God...you carry the burden and show me what I need to do to deal with this if it does come to pass or what I can do to change the circumstances so it won't come to pass."

"What am I doing wrong in my prayer life?"
"Why do people in other countries get healed and we don't?"
"Is there a piece that I am missing?"

Is this really what God is like? A God who needs to be appeased by just the right combination of actions and right prayers before He will act in the way we want Him to?

Blessings,
Barbara

Ian Gentles

4th December 2007, 08:59 AM (08:59)

Yes Barbara i do appreciate what you are saying, esp reguards your prayer for patients. I find the whole subject of the gifts of the Spirit challenging, and confusing, are they for today or not? But agree soul needs healing, mine does, more than anything.

Ian Gentles

4th December 2007, 09:45 AM (09:45)

Whether it be physical or psychological illness there is a great need for peace. Should i go to Thursdays healing service? if so what to expect?

Hans Deventer

4th December 2007, 09:53 AM (09:53)

Whether it be physical or psychological illness there is a great need for peace. Should i go to Thursdays healing service? if so what to expect?

I would go and as in any service, expect to meet God there. I'd try to be as open towards Him as I possibly can and give Him all the room He needs to work in me.

Ian Gentles

4th December 2007, 10:12 AM (10:12)

But, whats the point if things dont happen through anointing with oil etc?

Roland Hearn

4th December 2007, 01:14 PM (13:14)

Ian,
I believe God heals.
I believe God could heal Brad today.
I told my mother yesterday that even though God can heal he generally doesn't. Life is life. If you take away the things that create pain life is not what we have now. It is in our pain that we find the gift of grace. There is no sweeter person than the one that has discovered grace in the middle of pain. What we have to do is stop fighting the pain and allow God to work in us in the middle of it. Having said that I say again -I believe God heals.

My wife was told she couldn't have children. Two months after going forward at a healing service and one month after an exploratory procedure she was pregnant with our first child. Maybe that was coincidence but I don't think so. I have seen too many answers to prayer for healing to doubt it. So I always pray for healing and grace and let God have room to work.

Why does God not heal sometimes? Well I think the whole idea of us trying to understand God with human rationality at that point is a little arrogant on our part. I think God has revealed enough for us to understand that we can trust Him, the rest we have to do just that with. I just think we have to let go of the whole idea of being able to understand why God heals in one situation and not in another. The questions can't be answered so why do we keep asking, why not trust Him to do well.

Can prayer help depression? I think medication and counseling and prayer will beat depression more times than it won't. I have never been involved with a person in one on one counseling that has been depressed, and I mean diagnosed with depression, that that combination over time has not seen at least some healing. So yes I would say God heals depression. The latest individual I worked with was on permanent disability pension because of depression. When I last saw him I doubt he would qualify - he was happy, dealing with issues in a healthy way and relating to people well. It was a miracle but it took about two years to start to unfold.

Anne and Dwayne Hood

4th December 2007, 01:27 PM (13:27)

The Bible teaches us that as our faith is-so be it unto us. Many of us have wondered about this. We don't understand why we don't get the answer we are seeking.
I can remember some definite immediate answers to prayer, that I or someone near me have experienced. This causes us to really struggle over what seems our lack of answers to prayer.
As, I have mentioned before, maybe it is one of those-These things come about, only by prayer and fasting. But, if God does not press it upon to do this, maybe the answer is to wait.
One place, we are told that He will give us the desires of our heart. Well, if this does not happen, what is the problem? What are our desires" Are they in accordance, with what we know of things that are God's will for His people? Are we praying amiss? Do we have a selfish motive?
We may think-God, speak out loud and tell me what you want me to do. Would we do it? He may have to change the desires of our hearts.
In Ian's mind, he feels that he just wants God to give them enough income, monetary wise, to meet his basic needs, even if he is never able to buy something he wants.

But, faith, obedience, prayer, fasting--HE WILL ANSWER-even though we may not understand HOW.
Maybe, He may wants us to try, the sacrifice of faith. I admit, that it is very hard. But, try it. Praise Him for who and what He is-even if you have to say, Lord, though you slay me, yet will I serve you.

Dwayne just called and told me it is going to cost $2,000 (with tax) to get our van fixed. I remember when we would have had to borrow the money to have this done. We might would have had to put it on a charge card. We may be back to this again someday. But, along this line, We have proven him true, what He says He will do. He never has failed us yet. This is shouting ground.
I remember the only time I ever saw Mother walk around in the church and shout. I was very young, but even then, I thought how embarassed she would be, if she knew that, as her hands were lifted to the Lord, her blouse had come out in the back. But, maybe, as blessed as she was, she might not have been embarrassed.

Did not spell check. I am writing during school time, while Jordan is busy with some work.

Ian Gentles

4th December 2007, 01:58 PM (13:58)

I fast, dont help?

Roland Hearn

4th December 2007, 02:20 PM (14:20)

Ian,
There are not any simple answers to the questions you ask. No matter what any one says it just never works out clinically and easily as in a formula, if I pray this much, if I fast this much, if I get this many people on board with my prayers God will answer. All those formulas leave the people that don't get answers the way others do questioning their faith or the amount they pray or are they good enough for God. Such ideas are totally unworkable. The answers you seek are much deeper but they are there to be found.

Ian Gentles

4th December 2007, 02:55 PM (14:55)

Rowland

I pray so hard for Brad, and others before him, here and elswhare, for Hannie, yes for myself. My problem is, when is prayer answered?

Roland Hearn

4th December 2007, 03:26 PM (15:26)

Rowland

I pray so hard for Brad, and others before him, here and elswhare, for Hannie, yes for myself. My problem is, when is prayer answered?

That is a great question.

I am not satisfied with a lot of the cliche answers we come up with like "sometimes the answer is a no," or "he has answered in a way you can't understand." Those things are probably true but they don't satisfy. I think in the midst of our prayers three things need to be happening. 1. We are learning to trust the character of God and allowing Him to be God of all, 2. We are learning the nature of grace - allowing it to be consistently one thing: love and 3. We are allowing His grace to explore our hearts and transform us so that we are becoming more like Him. As those three things are happening we get to wrestle with the question of how and when God answers, perhaps never coming up with a complete answer but always growing closer to Him. I am learning to live with unanswered questions.

Ian Gentles

4th December 2007, 03:39 PM (15:39)

That is a great question.

I am not satisfied with a lot of the cliche answers we come up with like "sometimes the answer is a no," or "he has answered in a way you can't understand." Those things are probably true but they don't satisfy. I think in the midst of our prayers three things need to be happening. 1. We are learning to trust the character of God and allowing Him to be God of all, 2. We are learning the nature of grace - allowing it to be consistently one thing: love and 3. We are allowing His grace to explore our hearts and transform us so that we are becoming more like Him. As those three things are happening we get to wrestle with the question of how and when God answers, perhaps never coming up with a complete answer but always growing closer to Him. I am learning to live with unanswered questions.

I think Hans got it, is Jesus the same today? If He isnt we can move on, if He is, ok whats going on?

Paul Willis

4th December 2007, 04:14 PM (16:14)

We are all given a measure of faith. Healing is a byproduct of our faith in action. Its contingency is glorification of our Father in Heaven.

Hans Deventer

4th December 2007, 04:54 PM (16:54)

Ian,
There are not any simple answers to the questions you ask. No matter what any one says it just never works out clinically and easily as in a formula, if I pray this much, if I fast this much, if I get this many people on board with my prayers God will answer.

Thankfully not. That would be manipulating God, and that is idolarity.

All those formulas leave the people that don't get answers the way others do questioning their faith or the amount they pray or are they good enough for God. Such ideas are totally unworkable. The answers you seek are much deeper but they are there to be found.

So far I believe that God loves me. As such, I'm good enough to be loved. All the same I do believe I still have lots to learn and to grow in my faith, and I also believe that this growth would have an effect in this area of healing as well, though it would never be the primary goal. Not even the secundary.

Hans Deventer

5th December 2007, 12:47 AM (00:47)

Is this really what God is like? A God who needs to be appeased by just the right combination of actions and right prayers before He will act in the way we want Him to?

No. But He does require faith. It's not "the right combination of actions and right prayers", as if there were some formula. But it seems rather obvious to me that faith is required.

C.S. Lewis, in Letters to Malcolm, talked about degrees of faith. He said (as I remember, don't have the book here) that there are degrees of faith and some statements in the Bible are for "very advanced pupils indeed".

I think we need to distinguish between trying to manipulate God by "the right combination of actions and right prayers" on the one hand, and growing in faith which opens up doors to promises that we can't deal with at a lower level.

These are not the same. And there is such a thing as growth in faith and grace and we do get to know God better that way. And I can image that it can bring us at a point where we can say: Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. (Jhn 14:10) What else would be the meaning of

I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. (Gal 2:20)?

Ian Gentles

5th December 2007, 06:19 AM (06:19)

Ian Gentles

5th December 2007, 06:59 AM (06:59)

How much of our needs are spiritual? In James passage it certainly would seem repentance is also needed. I think many ailments cause spiritual difficulties that need to be dealt with, bitterness, fear, self pity, pride, to name but a few. We also may put all our faith in doctors, as if they become some sort of gods, idolitory!
I know with my case there comes, fear, doubt, self pity, a trusting in others rather than God (idolitory?) Of course other spiritual matters arise, feeling of unworthiness, sins to large to be forgiven (doubt) and so on. Here i beleive, in all these areas, peace with God must be acheived before anything else can happen! How easy to be a martyre, if that would make things right! Let me dip seven times in the Jordan, hey some action on my part! We also may look for the right healing service, ministry, a possible tendancy to idolitary?

Hans Deventer

5th December 2007, 07:44 AM (07:44)

A child runs weeping to father with a cut knee, father will not only comfort but treat the knee. We may be in danger of forming a God in our fearfull image, One Who seems to turn away?
A little child dosent expect a "No" or "wait" they expect, trust in father to respond straight away, after all that is what father does! We seem to complicate Father, the Father, Who showed Himself in Jesus. Jesus responded to the cries of people, turned none away. I cant imagine meeting Jesus on a Palestinian road and saying, "I beg You Lord heal me of my suffering", and He would do nothing!

I agree, Ian, but let us not forget that healing wasn't Jesus primary purpose, and those that He healed, did in fact shout "crucify him" only a little later.

It is interesting to see how things go terribly wrong when God indeed IS acting according to our expectations. Think of Exodus. None of those that left Egypt got to enter the promised land, except Joshua and Caleb. None of those that experienced His daily care, literally. So much that Moses at one point says on behalf of God: "During the forty years that I led you through the desert, your clothes did not wear out, nor did the sandals on your feet". (Deut 29:5) It didn't produce a lot of faith then, and it didn't in Jesus' day.

This is where I really agree with Barbara (well, at least I hope I understand her well enough not to misrepresent her thoughts, and my apologies if I do). God is aiming for more. And it seems one of the ways He is trying to accomplish that is by not granting our every wish. The one that did get all his wishes (Salomon), turned out bad too.

I don't know if you ever read Chaim Potok's The Chosen. It is a story about two Jewish boys growing up in early 20th century New York. One is a Reform Jew, the other an orthodox one, part of the Chassidim. The father of the latter one, a rabi, a tsaddik only speaks to his son when studying the Torah and the Talmud. The contact is never personal. And the boy suffers. At the end of the book, however, the father explains that he had seen this brilliant mind of his son that was without compassion. It was brilliant but cold as ice. So he made him suffer, in order to help him understand the sufferings others go through.

I'm not saying this is exactly what our relation to God is like. But it did help me see that there is more than being relieved of suffering, as much as I long for it.

I'm in between two facts: I see Jesus and the apostles act with more confidence in God than I have. And I understand that their healings were signs that were more often than not misunderstood.
So on the one hand, I take it I'm not living at the level of faith and confidence in God as they did, and on the other, I do try to focus on what really seems to matter to God most.

Barbara Moulton

5th December 2007, 08:02 AM (08:02)

Ian Gentles

5th December 2007, 08:05 AM (08:05)

Yes follow what you are saying, in that pain teaches us, as Nouwen says, Feel you pain dont analyse it for only in feeling it will it be healed. Course he is talking about emotional pain. But then i think of the other father shown in Jesus Who didnt ignore the suffering, and gave power to His church to heal. James does deal with need for a full repentance of sins, he dosent show us an easy way to healing, but assures the church healings will follow! I guess this is why many healing services follow communion and a confession of sins? We are such mysterious creatures, body mind and soul, all need healing. But when we go for healing, are we any different from folks of Jesus day? Oh many lost out as they didn't have the healing of the soul, we accept this, and a tragedy it was, to be healed physically and lost spiritualy. What worries me, not condemning anyone, is we seem to try to explain away the healing reality, and possibly spiritual gifts. I simply ask myself, is healing meant for today? Seeing nothing contrary in scripture, I am then left with question, ok where are they?

Barbara Moulton

5th December 2007, 08:27 AM (08:27)

i beleive, in all these areas, peace with God must be acheived before anything else can happen

I find it odd that you use the phrase "peace with God must be achieved". To me peace isn't something we achieve, it is something we receive.

Peace came for me when I surrendered everything (even my need to have all the answers) to God.

We also may look for the right healing service, ministry, a possible tendancy to idolitary?

I think you are right. My concern is that we could become so focused on getting our prayers "just right"...or finding just the "right kind" of healing service, that we lose sight of what should be our true focus. And that could be considered a type of idolatry.

Like I have said before. If God does choose to perform a miracle of healing in my life, I don't think it will because I finally cracked some elusive code. It will because, in God's infinite understanding, He would know that the miracle is the best thing He could do in my life.

Ian Gentles

5th December 2007, 08:57 AM (08:57)

I do find many do need to seek peace with God first, to be right with Him as fully as we can. Our sins kinda fowl up the works of prayer!
I dont think there is an elusive code, more a something staring us in the face that we dont see. Maybe scripture is to simple, Jesus heals?

Anne and Dwayne Hood

6th December 2007, 01:06 AM (01:06)

We will never find a method of a certain way to pray, that will appease God, and He will answer everything we pray about in the way we want it to be answered. We have to leave it in His hands and trust Him for the outcome.
I just felt certain that God would heal baby Kent, and the doctors and nurses would be amazed, and His name would be glorified. But, Kent has been with Jesus 34 years this month.
Dwayne and I, and MANY others thought I would die in the summer of 2000, and We discussed it in the hospital, and accepted the fact. But, I am still here.

In some things, we may be able to Have the mind of Christ, but healing does not seem to be one of them. There have been times, that I lay prostrate on the floor praying for someone to be healed, but they died. I felt certain that they would be healed.

God, had to bring it to my mind strongly, that He did heal Kent, that He gave him the complete healing. Occasionally, even after 34 years, I have times, that that answer is not enought, but I don't live like that most of the time.
He was born on Christmas Day--looked just like a tiny Dwayne--eight pounds four ounces, strong heart and lungs, but another problem that entailed two surgeries, and he was not old enough to take all of this.
Mother passed away the day after Christmas 2004. We were there all night, Christmas Eve (in Nashville), and until 2 p.m. Christmas Day, before we left to head back toward Memphis. But, Kent and Mother's old bodies will rise again, and and be glorified. We will see them and our risen Savior someday.
Now we see through a glass darkly.

Ian Gentles

6th December 2007, 05:34 AM (05:34)

Again I wonder about healing in regards to various ailments. I know, for instance, that the suffering rate amoung christians, and others, for emotional/depressive/mental diseas is high, and wonder, does Jesus really mean folks to suffer, have their lives robbed, due to these? This would be in a class of none life threatening, but life robbing, diseas. Many lives get completely robbed/ruined through theses.

Hans Deventer

6th December 2007, 05:47 AM (05:47)

Ian Gentles

6th December 2007, 05:50 AM (05:50)

Ian, first, define what in God's view is a ruined life and what in God's view is a life worth living. Then start again with the question.

In this case, maybe a life thats robbed of any joy or contentment? My mind is working on the idea of some ailments that are just zapping the life out of folks.

Ian Gentles

6th December 2007, 06:06 AM (06:06)

I really do have trouble explaining my thinking on this whole subject. Isnt it the case that the Lord wants us to have life, in Him, in its fullness? Often with illness, there is a cure along the way, surgery perhaps. I have prayed for many who in end had that possibility, and though they were ill for a time in end healed. Also some, diabetis for instance, have medication and a regime that gives them a normal life. But some ailments just rob a person of peace, any joy, and the ability to live what we might call normal lives. So i wonder, dosent Jesus want to heal these persons? I fear the explaning away of healing in our modern age as i see this, not an attack on anyone.

Hans Deventer

6th December 2007, 06:14 AM (06:14)

In this case, maybe a life thats robbed of any joy or contentment? My mind is working on the idea of some ailments that are just zapping the life out of folks.

I think you need to work from the more general to the specific. In general, I would say many lives that seem care free may in God's eyes be speeding downhill, while lives that are oppressed (from whatever source) may be viewed quite differently. See for instance Psalm 73. Apparently, the psalmist had his share of daily problems:

13 Surely in vain have I kept my heart pure;
in vain have I washed my hands in innocence.
14 All day long I have been plagued;
I have been punished every morning.

In fact, Paul had his share as well (2 Cor 11) and yet, came to the conclusion of Romans 8:35-39.

I think our primary question shouldn't be how to chance our circumstances (not that one cannot pray for that!), but how to reach that same conclusion despite the circumstance.

I think we may end up quite surprised to find out how God looks at our circumstances.

Ian Gentles

6th December 2007, 06:23 AM (06:23)

I go back simply to your original posts concerning does Jesus heal today? do we have the spiritual gifts? I see a lot of, "look more at how God works through this?" type of thing. I do believe God works in infirmities my question is a simple nagging one, do we see Jesus healing today? Maybe our faith is conditioned to see less happen than we would like to admit? Why do churches still have healing services, whats their grounds for these and hopes through them? I see us going through agonies on such subjects in that scripture seems to say one thing and reality another, which is right?

Hans Deventer

6th December 2007, 06:37 AM (06:37)

I go back simply to your original posts concerning does Jesus heal today?

I feel caught between a rock and a hard place. Seems I disagree with both Barbara and you. I believe God meant us to live with Him in such a way that miracles can and will happen, but not as His primary goal. With C.S. Lewis, I think most of us don't have that kind of faith. James concludes his famous saying about healing with: "Elijah was a man just like us. He prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the land for three and a half years. Again he prayed, and the heavens gave rain, and the earth produced its crops." (James 5:17-18)

On the other hand, I don't think God is as obsessed with healing as our culture is. I think He looks at different things primarily.

Ian Gentles

6th December 2007, 06:56 AM (06:56)

Oh i agree that healing isn't God's primary purpose, its to save and change lives, to make us more socially responsible, for true justice to be carried out in our midst. I also believe quite clearly that God does use medicine mostly today. I also believe many wont recover from illness, and yes die! If the Lord dosent come, I expect to die sometime, something will cause my physical life to end, of that I have no doubt.
I also feel God helps many in their infirmities, strengthens them to go on, the famous Joni would be an example of this. I even believe God helps His people to die.
But, to me, thats still leaves me asking scripture, and myself, what does Jesus intend for this, or any other age? I wont go to extreme of God intends all to be healed, to me that defies any sort of logic, scriptural or otherwise. However, as many suffer is God's will truely being fulfilled in this? Sure Jesus healed folks who would eventually die, but His healing did allow them some more years of hopefully profitable life and service! It is this healing i think about, not that I or others, escape from lifes reality.
Also there is whole subject of peace with God, often the miracle is that people have peace to go on, to endure.

Ian Gentles

6th December 2007, 07:07 AM (07:07)

Let me consider briefly the depression thing. Folks often seek healing from it, not as a case of their lives being saved, but as a case of their lives once again being made whole. I have found often that these folks dont worry so much about physical wholeness as psychological and spiritual wholeness. They want peace from the trauma of their beings, of the trauma in their very souls! They seek for a wholeness and strenth to go on in a normal way.

Ian Gentles

7th December 2007, 07:54 AM (07:54)

I think in case of depressive illnesses that maybe what the person is seeking is more peace instead of using the world healing! Course such persons attend to medical treatments, but what i think they yearn for is peace, peace from mental anguish, from turmoil of the soul, from the emptyness that engulfs them.

Dennis Bratcher

7th December 2007, 11:55 AM (11:55)

FWIW, a few biblical observations.

Luke 4:25 But the truth is, there were many widows in Israel in the time of Elijah, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, and there was a severe famine over all the land; 4:26 yet Elijah was sent to none of them except to a widow at Zarephath in Sidon. 4:27 There were also many lepers in Israel in the time of the prophet Elisha, and none of them was cleansed except Naaman the Syrian.The problem in this narrative is that the people of Nazareth want Jesus to “Do here also in your hometown the things that we have heard you did at Capernaum.” Jesus responded by saying in effect that it was not about miracles or healing, but about the purposes of God in the world. Evidently from the narrative, the Nazarenes did not receive healing. Logically, if Jesus reveals the Father, and since Jesus noted that God had not healed everyone but only a select few for His own larger purposes, we cannot then assume that Jesus’ purpose was to heal everyone. Perhaps we not only need to allow Jesus to define God from the OT, but also allow God from the OT to define Jesus; at least Jesus was comfortable with that.

Mark 6:56 And wherever he went, into villages or cities or farms, they laid the sick in the marketplaces, and begged him that they might touch even the fringe of his cloak; and all who touched it were healed. (=Matt 14:36)
Interesting that it says specifically that those who touched his garment were healed. Were there others who did not touch his garment that were not healed (because of lack of faith?)?

Luke 6:19 And all in the crowd were trying to touch him, for power came out from him and healed all of them.
In this version, people did not have to touch the garment but everyone was healed simply by the power radiating from Jesus (in 5:17 power from God, in Luke connected with the Spirit).

Luke 9:1 Then Jesus called the twelve together and gave them power and authority over all demons and to cure diseases, 9:2 and he sent them out to proclaim the kingdom of God and to heal.
In Luke, the twelve were given power to heal, but in the service of the mission of proclaiming the Kingdom of God. Luke 9:11 also connects healing with the proclamation of the Kingdom of God (in Matthew’s version, they are forbidden to go into Gentile or Samaritan territory, so the mission is only for Jews). This is dealt with in John’s Gospel by the metaphor of “signs,” those things that Jesus said and did that were to reveal who he was. Acts 3 recounts a healing by Peter, which becomes the occasion for a sermon on the nature of Jesus as Messiah.

Matthew 8:16 That evening they brought to him many who were possessed with demons; and he cast out the spirits with a word, and cured all who were sick.

Mark 1:34 And he cured many who were sick with various diseases, and cast out many demons; and he would not permit the demons to speak, because they knew him.
It is interesting that Matthew’s Gospel almost always reports that Jesus healed everyone or all who were sick, while Mark consistently (and Luke sometimes, 7:21) says that Jesus healed “many.” That suggests that were are dealing with Synoptic issues in which the accounts are reported in terms of the larger purposes for which the individual Gospels are being written. That means that we cannot make too much out of “all” or “everyone.”

Mark 6:5 And he could do no deed of power there [Nazareth], except that he laid his hands on a few sick people and cured them.Evidently there were people that Jesus did not heal, and in at least one context only healed a few. How did he decide who?

Luke 5:15 But now more than ever the word about Jesus spread abroad; many crowds would gather to hear him and to be cured of their diseases. 5:16 But he would withdraw to deserted places and pray.
Evidently, there were occasions when Jesus healed no one in the crowds.

Just some information for reflection.

Grace and Peace,

Dennis Bratcher

Barbara Moulton

7th December 2007, 01:42 PM (13:42)

Ian Gentles

7th December 2007, 01:56 PM (13:56)

Talking recently to an Law Enforcement friend, his question, where do we folks find peace and healing? Mental trauma is a weird thing! I cant figure it out!

Hans Deventer

7th December 2007, 01:56 PM (13:56)

Hans...and we come right back to that phrase..."that kind of faith".

This is my continuing concern in this dialogue. I have seen some incredible faith exhibited in my lifetime. Deep and profound faith that healing was going to come. Faith that certainly seemed to be the same, if not greater, as the faith expressed by those who came to Christ for healing.

Yet God hasn't healed.

So what am I to do with that?

If the reason that we don't see healings today as there were in the Scriptures is that because we just haven't been able to find "that kind of faith" then I am left with a picture of God which is distressing.

He would seem to be a God who has set criteria for healing faith which seems impossible for the vast majorty of Christians to find.

Well, first of all, He requires very little faith in order to receive healing. That much is clear. He does seem to require a lot more faith from the agents of healing, so to speak. Also, healing is a specific spiritual gift that not all of us have (1 Corinthians 12:30).
I also understand it is a gift we may strive towards. But it is obvious that even in NT times, not everyone had the gift.

If there is anything distressing about this, it seems to me that I hear very few who actively desire those gifts that God for all I understand, is still willing to give.

Also, reading Paul's words about the Lord's Supper (1 Cor 11), he seems to conclude that this mess in Corinth (and I would say it especially has to do with a lack of love) is causing diseases (and apparently, a lack of healing).

Ian Gentles

7th December 2007, 01:58 PM (13:58)

I would hope folk have a gift of healing mental trauma, but got my doubts!

Barbara Moulton

7th December 2007, 03:04 PM (15:04)

Well, first of all, He requires very little faith in order to receive healing. That much is clear. He does seem to require a lot more faith from the agents of healing, so to speak. Also, healing is a specific spiritual gift that not all of us have (1 Corinthians 12:30).
I also understand it is a gift we may strive towards. But it is obvious that even in NT times, not everyone had the gift.

If there is anything distressing about this, it seems to me that I hear very few who actively desire those gifts that God for all I understand, is still willing to give.

Also, reading Paul's words about the Lord's Supper (1 Cor 11), he seems to conclude that this mess in Corinth (and I would say it especially has to do with a lack of love) is causing diseases (and apparently, a lack of healing).

I know what spiritual gifts God has given me and I take great joy in using them. If He wants to give me the gift of healing then I am open to that. But I don't desire that gift over any other. I don't believe that God wants me to pick a gift that I want to have and then "strive" for it.

Hans Deventer

7th December 2007, 03:50 PM (15:50)

I know what spiritual gifts God has given me and I take great joy in using them. If He wants to give me the gift of healing then I am open to that. But I don't desire that gift over any other. I don't believe that God wants me to pick a gift that I want to have and then "strive" for it.

Well, Paul says so twice, both in 1 Cor 12:31 as in 1 Cor 14:1. He clearly puts love above everything, also says that prophesying is to be sought for especially, but still, ζηλοῦτε means exactly that: strive. I checked Bauer's Greek-English lexicon but it indeed is the first meaning of the verb. It's probably the word where the English "zealous" derives from?

Anyway, Barbara, if you're happy with how you feel about this issue, who am I to try and disturb that? Surely you're not bothered by the fact that you haven't convinced me. Our views on this issue won't match completely. Well, the world still turns.

Ian Gentles

7th December 2007, 04:01 PM (16:01)

I feel we lost meaning, and lost the reality

Barbara Moulton

7th December 2007, 05:35 PM (17:35)

Well, Paul says so twice, both in 1 Cor 12:31 as in 1 Cor 14:1. He clearly puts love above everything, also says that prophesying is to be sought for especially, but still, ζηλοῦτε means exactly that: strive. I checked Bauer's Greek-English lexicon but it indeed is the first meaning of the verb. It's probably the word where the English "zealous" derives from?

Anyway, Barbara, if you're happy with how you feel about this issue, who am I to try and disturb that? Surely you're not bothered by the fact that you haven't convinced me. Our views on this issue won't match completely. Well, the world still turns.

Yes but 1 Corinthians 12:11
All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

What has kept me going throughout this whole thread is the continuing disbelief that you and I could feel so differently about it. I keep thinking that if we talk more we will find out that we really do agree.

NazNet...always full of surprises. :)

Blessings,
Barbara

Blessings,
Barbara

Hans Deventer

8th December 2007, 03:51 AM (03:51)

Yes but 1 Corinthians 12:11
All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

Sure! But that is no contradiction. We can never manipulate our Father, ever. But I do believe, like a real father, I can ask Him for things and it may be, He gives them. James says that we don't get things (or some things) because we don't ask. God wants to be asked, that's what I've always understood.
Also, of course Phil 2:12-13 is a similar example of the balance between what God determines and does, and our responsibility.

Perhaps a story from my youth explains some. In those days (early 60's) kids weren't stuffed with toys and presents like they are now. I had some Meccano (http://www.marktplaats.nl/index.php?url=http%3A//verzamelen.marktplaats.nl/speelgoed-en-puzzels/127292062-t-k-a-kist-met-meccano.html%3Freturn%3DeJwljFsKgzAQRfci6GdMKoE2Iq I7CUlKQh4OTqSlpXvviD9zzz0MVyuhvkHxEZWQUjXo9G786GsF 1fdxA1dY1nuskLSuyErqrxcGHuZ3mkRncapbOyyiHdZEZ7k%25 2FJKENhKeqlJ8AhPi0eEk4JSfI5JdyZLcHQzW%252BqGZnjC40 uW54jtw6gGPizfj7A%252BuYNi0%253D%26df%3D1%26fta%3D eNpN0ttu4yAQBuB34aLXc%252BA4KK%252BwrxBZsdu11kms4L TRVnn3Aq6Jbyzr0zDww3Ti5Tvlj7rfpuNnNyUVkzgj6jEd8K1P h%252BUqGCcUH0zsR4nTIv%252FHOab3PkmcF4F4nuVyPw%252 B38RT%252Ffcl5OJ26yzVe0yj0Ns%252F3A5SWWtTcfQwqjrld EhY19nmvThjke8xdkgRRyGxcQO23utW0Y6epGL3MBnS6GO%252 FMcYBiemfW%252BGpmM%252FI%252BAJlitpkL3kDdw22GbA15 W8y3OjKgoVp4GaMNtR%252FCCyEwc0XcocvFFVsUQkM5c0V%25 2B7Y2IZu3ZwiCSNcZVbGnABw24bmR3yPDbs%252BUBBq1h7dkC ARrPLlQML9TB%252BrqcWiIAcMgrbokoGG%252FdeiSiHZKxK% 252FIemeo5STdk72m9djIN0QVD9c1oS0S5zHtcK7dE5Eywdn1x 8g21Cc7WRBQaUiCwefkz5VsWtVznrk%252FHabh8LH9LaYmJIO p0v92O46UfHpvm9efucSzjmye2rzNIorovFf%252F8%252Fn6W Sc6D%252FHz%252BAHRp0%252Bw%253D%26fta_ind%3D30%26 fs%3D1%23photo), I don't know if you remember this construction system but it was great for boys. Now one Saturday, walking with my dad through town, we came past a shop where they sold it. The system was such that you started out with a basic kit, and then you bought additional kits that allowed you to build ever more complex stuff. So there was this one additional kit that I had wanted for a long time, but it wasn't my birthday yet, nor Saint Nicolas' Eve (which are only 6 days apart anyway). So I asked my dad and to my surprise, he actually went into the shop and bought it for me!! I can still tell you this story, Barbara, though it's probably 45 years ago, I must have been 5 years old.
Anyway, if I hadn't asked, I would not have gotten it. Asking it gave no guarantee that I would get it, but not asking certainly did guarantee I wouldn't.

I'm not saying that goes with everything God does. "He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous." Still, I do believe there are things He won't give unless we ask. And if Paul talks about striving towards gifts, that may very well be one of those issues.

What has kept me going throughout this whole thread is the continuing disbelief that you and I could feel so differently about it. I keep thinking that if we talk more we will find out that we really do agree.

There is a lot we agree on, on this subject also. But there really are differences as well.

Ian Gentles

8th December 2007, 07:13 AM (07:13)

If one asks, how does one know that they have received such a gift, and how do they use it?

Ian Gentles

8th December 2007, 07:24 AM (07:24)

It would also seem that when Holy Spirit is in a location in power more occurs in answer to prayer, as in revival times. Also it would seem some people are so filled by the Spirit that things happen through them. I dont understand these things but they do seem to happen.

Ian Gentles

8th December 2007, 08:25 AM (08:25)

In Genesis God holds, controls, the powers of chaos to create order. Illness in a sense is chaos in the humane body and mind/soul, a chaos God allows, His reasons for doing so are hidden in mystery, a mystery we cannot fathom. God creates with His Word of power and all is order in creations perfection. It would seem something similar happens in healing Jesus speaks and the illness is gone, the dead arise. So did apostles as empowered by Jesus through His Spirit, the unseen God/Jesus with us. This same Spirit, we are told, abides with Christians in every age, we cant diminish the Holy Spirit or change Him as He is God. Since God, unchanging, is with us, that same power that formed creation by word of command must also be with us. Illness is chaos in body and mind, its abnormal in sense it is contrary to creations perfection. At fall chaos, it would seem, took a grip again on perfection, bodies and minds created by a perfect God. So it would seem, a word of God's power will combat that chaos. As we still have God with us, as we say, and are told, them possibilities of physical and mental restoration must also be with us. I can only state the obvious that God's power isn't often released in power today, as in other times, locations. But, if God the creator healer is with us, and we hold that He is, then surely healing's are still available to church today?

Barbara Moulton

8th December 2007, 09:48 AM (09:48)

Disclaimer:
As you read my response Hans, keep in mind that I've probably been responding to what is an amalgam of Ian's and your thoughts, not just your thoughts alone.

I feel like I keep hearing:

He really does want to give us this gift, we just haven't been asking right. Or there is some little piece that we are missing in our spiritual experience that keeps Him from giving us that gift.

I don't want to misrepresent you though. :)

Still, I do believe there are things He won't give unless we ask. And if Paul talks about striving towards gifts, that may very well be one of those issues.

Ahhh...but I have asked. Begged and pleaded with my heavenly Father.

To me "strive " means that we are to desire and ask for all the gifts...all the good things that God has for us...it doesn't mean that we should focus in on one gift that we really want and start analyzing why we don't have it.

I believe the whole teaching of Scripture is that we should earnestly desire the very best gifts that God has for us and yes...ask for them. We won't get them if we don't ask. But what do we do once we have asked and have not received?

The reality is that at some point in my life, I've asked for all of them. When I take the "strive for" verses and read them in the context of all the other verses on spiritual gifts, I arrive at the opinion that we are to desire and ask for all the gifts and then open them up as they are given.

I love watching little children at Christmas. I have video of my girls opening their stockings and treasuring every little item that they took out. Across the room were other presents, things I knew they had asked for. I looked forward to when they would open those gifts as well. But the joy of Christmas gift giving is found in the wonder of the moment..in the treasuring of each gift given...large or small, asked for or not.

Their joy would not have been as full on Christmas Day (IMHO) if they had simply run to the tree to find the gift that they had asked for. All the blessings of all the gifts would have been lost because their focus was somewhere else.

I think that is where I am at in my life. My whole life is like Christmas morning and I trust God that the very best gifts He has for me will be mine to open. In living this way, I believe I am living Romans 12.

Romans 12:6-8
We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith. If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully.

I feel that at some point we can come to the point of saying, "I"m still open to all you have for me Father but I am content with what you have given me right now."

But that moves into another area. The spiritual angst that so many people seem to live with that is absent from my life. I love my Heavenly Father and I rejoice in how He uses me in my ministry.

When there is something in my life that needs to be dealt with, He shows it to me and we work on it together.

I let Him set the agenda.

I'll end with another disclaimer. These thoughts are simply me trying to express where I am at in my spiritual life. They are, in no way, meant to imply that anyone who feels differently is not exactly where God wants them to be.

Ian Gentles

8th December 2007, 10:06 AM (10:06)

Jesus emphasis on "asking" is important. We really need to get to a point where we admit much is asked and little received. Does a Father ignore His children most of the time? We are seeing very little receiving in many areas not just in healing. Does my Father mean for me to be as I am? Surely not, surely He, as Jesus tells us, only gives His children good things! Again the words of Jesus haunt me in a way, in many areas they say different from what many experience.

Hans Deventer

8th December 2007, 10:23 AM (10:23)

Ahhh...but I have asked. Begged and pleaded with my heavenly Father.

You did? For the spiritual gift of healing? I have to admit I've prayed a lot for people to be healed by God, but precious little for receiving the gift.

To me "strive " means that we are to desire and ask for all the gifts...all the good things that God has for us...it doesn't mean that we should focus in on one gift that we really want and start analyzing why we don't have it.

I do indeed wonder why we (meaning, all christians) indeed rarely have it.

I believe the whole teaching of Scripture is that we should earnestly desire the very best gifts that God has for us and yes...ask for them. We won't get them if we don't ask. But what do we do once we have asked and have not received?

2 Corinthians 12:9

The reality is that at some point in my life, I've asked for all of them. When I take the "strive for" verses and read them in the context of all the other verses on spiritual gifts, I arrive at the opinion that we are to desire and ask for all the gifts and then open them up as they are given.

Agreed.

I feel that at some point we can come to the point of saying, "I"m still open to all you have for me Father but I am content with what you have given me right now."

I can agree that living with the expectation as you describe is, probably comes close what Paul had in mind with the word "strive"

But that moves into another area. The spiritual angst that so many people seem to live with that is absent from my life. I love my Heavenly Father and I rejoice in how He uses me in my ministry.

I have no spiritual "angst" (tricky word, it is a word in Dutch as well and means "fear", I hope it means the same the way you use it). But exactly because I want to remain open to what God is willing to give, I'm reluctant to accept the status quo as all there is. Also, comparing my life to the life of the apostles, I think I'm not yet as completely open to what God wants to give me as they were. But I'm not afraid or scared or uneasy towards God about this situation.

When there is something in my life that needs to be dealt with, He shows it to me and we work on it together.

I let Him set the agenda.

I can't tell where it came from, whether it's God putting the issue on the agenda, or me. I can tell that usually spiritual growth occurs when something (usually, some circumstance) starts to make me think. It may very well be that I'm not so open to what He wants to give as I thought I was. I do believe there is such a thing as a "holy uneasiness". Again, not based on fear!

Barbara Moulton

8th December 2007, 10:26 AM (10:26)

You did? For the spiritual gift of healing? I have to admit I've prayed a lot for people to be healed by God, but precious little for receiving the gift.

yes...I did. For a period of months in one of our churches where I truly believed it was something God wanted for me.

I can't tell where it came from, whether it's God putting the issue on the agenda, or me. I can tell that usually spiritual growth occurs when something (usually, some circumstance) starts to make me think. It may very well be that I'm not so open to what He wants to give as I thought I was. I do believe there is such a thing as a "holy uneasiness". Again, not based on fear!

That describes how God puts things on the agenda for me. :-)

Blessings on you Hans.

Barbara

Ian Gentles

8th December 2007, 10:43 AM (10:43)

I don't think for a minuet everyone will receive the gift of healing, we can ask but thats it. But that it is a gift, among others given to the church i have no doubts, according to scriptures i read. We seem to have become a community of faith with very few answers and a lot of desperation. We are desperate for a dynamic relationship with God, something inside of us telling us there is far more!

Ian Gentles

9th December 2007, 07:20 AM (07:20)

In Luke 14:1-6 Jesus heals on the Sabbath, then says to those watching, which one of them who's son or ox fell into a well wouldn't immediately pull him out on the Sabbath? Course they would, and not only on the Sabbath but on any day. In using this illustration in regards to a healing Jesus seems to be saying the ill man needed healing on day his situation became known to Jesus.

Ian Gentles

12th December 2007, 09:58 AM (09:58)

So, we believe God heals some? OK i can go with that, but to what degree does He heal some? I do like hearing of God healing in answer to prayer, but do we hear many such testimonies? I think not! My problem is this middle ground, that God heals some, according to His Divine will! Where are the some? is what I am asking? We are to pray for the sick among us, OK i go with that, but when we see so many not healed, or put it another way, when we really don't expect healing, where does this leave us? Surely for us to be able to affectively pray for the sick, we need to see some results? This dosent seem right, we are to pray, but also to see little if anything happen! I therefore come to the conclusion, and I may well be wrong, that more should be seen, or is God playing with us? I doubt this very much! So I ask myself yet again, why are our commanded prayers for the sick seeing so little fruit, if any at all?

Hans Deventer

12th December 2007, 10:23 AM (10:23)

Ian,

Lately a lady in our area, from another church, had been in a wheel chair and in much pain daily for 17 years, was completely cured by God.
Here is the link to an article in English http://franciscan-sfo.org/bc/bc248.htm

Ian Gentles

12th December 2007, 10:35 AM (10:35)

This a most uplifting testimony, for which we give God the praise. I just wonder why we dont see more happening? As i keep stating I dont expect for one moment for all prayers to be answered, but many more than we do!

Anne and Dwayne Hood

12th December 2007, 03:21 PM (15:21)

God healed my brother in law of diabetis this year. He had been on medication for Alzheimer's a few years. Now he is driving again. God answered my sister's prayers.

Many years ago, I was going through a hard time of trusting and believing. My same brother in law, his wife and us, were visiting Mother in SC. Horace got one of those terrible migraine headaches. My sister said they usually had to take him for a shot at the hospital. My aunt and uncle were in from California, also. One of them suggested that we pray for him. I pleaded with God, and told Him how badly, I needed to witness something like this. They got through praying. His headache was gone, and he said he wanted some coffee.
One night, I got up to go to the restroom. As I did, I met our oldest daughter, Robyn, in the hall. She said she was sick. I put my hand on her feverish brow and prayed for her. The fever and sickness immediately went away, and she went back to bed. It was Saturday night, and she badly hated to miss the Sunday morning Revival service. She told me that she wanted me to pray for her, but wanted me to come to her, and offer to pray. But, this does not happen every time. We do not know why.

If we live in constant doubt, of what God will do, that is basically what we get--many times.

Ian Gentles

14th December 2007, 07:00 AM (07:00)

as healing was such a part of ministry of Jesus and the apostles, and the gift of healing is mentioned as having been given to the church, in which ways do we bring it into ministry of church? Do we recognise certain persons as being set apart for this ministry? Do we set times aside for this ministry? I would imagine that counselling would also be part of this ministry, a deliberate support structure for those who are ill! I find that unless you say, "I feel awfull and need prayer and support" then that support and prayer wont be offered! Also i find people embarrased if you ask them to pray with you. Again i find that people really dont have much confidence in such ministry hense its absence. Its hard to turn to the church and find it laking in this area. Arent we the people of God, a people of power?

Ian Gentles

16th December 2007, 11:47 AM (11:47)

I note that in Mtt 15 Jesus heals a Canaanite womans daughter, against His at first intended will, as she wrestles with Him, refusing to take no for an answer, He heals the girl. In Mark 6 we are told Jesus couldent perform many miracles in Nazareth due to their lack of faith, a fact that amazed Him! Which are we like, the Canaanite woman, or the people of Nazareth? I think we need to honestly answer this question as answer may explain a lot!

Randy Wise

16th December 2007, 06:08 PM (18:08)

Hans Deventer

17th December 2007, 01:39 AM (01:39)

We believe He is the Son of God

Randy, you lost me here. What do you mean with that statement in relation to what Ian wrote? Sure we believe He is the Son of God, but I can't see the connection.

Randy Wise

17th December 2007, 06:37 AM (06:37)

Randy, you lost me here. What do you mean with that statement in relation to what Ian wrote? Sure we believe He is the Son of God, but I can't see the connection.

In regard to the lack of faith:
In Nazareth they were saying ,"isn't this Josephs Son" They didn't believe in Him at least at that time. We do believe in Him.

Randy

Ian Gentles

17th December 2007, 06:54 AM (06:54)

I am discussing different attitudes that Jesus responded to, one wouldent take "no" for an answer, the other amazed Him as they lacked faith. What do the stories tell us about ourselfs? Jesus was amazed at their lack of faith, which caused that few healings were performed.

Randy Wise

17th December 2007, 06:09 PM (18:09)

Ian Gentles

21st December 2007, 10:06 AM (10:06)

Hans Deventer

21st December 2007, 11:07 AM (11:07)

Anne and Dwayne Hood

22nd December 2007, 12:42 AM (00:42)

You may get tired of hearing this, but if you feel that you don't have a landmark of healing to look back at---remember that I, Anne Hood, am still here, over seven years later. Many were praying for me, as they did for Brad, and others. Why did He choose me to still be here, but let our son and others die? I don't know.

Randy Wise

22nd December 2007, 10:47 AM (10:47)

Yes, I know God has, and does, great things, but dosent He do them in response to faith? Do i believe for miracles, to be honest i doubt it! Maybe if i saw more happening in answer to prayer my faith would be strengthened to believe in regards to them? I think there is no simple answer. Do we want to see healings, miracles? I expect we do as we pray for them!

http://iangentles.livejournal.com

The kingdom of God is within. Every time God makes something known to you by His Holy Spirit wouldn't that be a miracle? Isn't our very relationship with God a miracle? The world doesn't see these things, but those born of the Spirit do see. It maybe me, but I see complaints in your posts towards God in this issue. Jesus is a High Priest in His "Fathers House". From Jesus to the least in the kingdom we work for the Fathers will. If God wanted to perform miraculous signs HE would perform them. His silence has spoken to me a firm "not my will in the manner you ask" We do believe God works for the "Good" of those that love Him. My own father died at 53. We have all suffered loss of loved ones. Perhaps we can feel strengthened in the fact that we are not alone in our sufferings as we sometimes ask "why me".
Randy

Ian Gentles

22nd December 2007, 11:08 AM (11:08)

"Complaints" how so? I am always searching for most God has for us, and settle for nothing less. Not saying my dear brother that you or anyone else does!

Barbara Moulton

22nd December 2007, 11:24 AM (11:24)

"Complaints" how so? I am always searching for most God has for us, and settle for nothing less. Not saying my dear brother that you or anyone else does!

Complaints isn't the word that I would use but I would comment that our spiritual journeys seem to be on remarkably different paths.

And it could be that I am right off the mark. But rather than searching and questioning if God wants more for me, I try to simply keep surrendering, believing that as long as I am surrendered in THIS moment, God will give me what He wants in the next moment.

I don't feel like I have settled for less. I feel like I have chosen contentment in what God is doing for me right now, trusting that when I am ready, He'll give me more.

It is to the stewards who simply went and used the resources that they had at present that the Master gave more. All that I need I have right now. I need to be faithful to Him with all that He has entrusted me with.

Maybe I am just too simplistic but it honestly works for me. I have peace. And peace is something that I value greatly, having experienced stress, despair and debilitating depression in the past.

Blessings,
Barbara

Ian Gentles

22nd December 2007, 12:09 PM (12:09)

Complaints isn't the word that I would use but I would comment that our spiritual journeys seem to be on remarkably different paths.

And it could be that I am right off the mark. But rather than searching and questioning if God wants more for me, I try to simply keep surrendering, believing that as long as I am surrendered in THIS moment, God will give me what He wants in the next moment.

I don't feel like I have settled for less. I feel like I have chosen contentment in what God is doing for me right now, trusting that when I am ready, He'll give me more.

It is to the stewards who simply went and used the resources that they had at present that the Master gave more. All that I need I have right now. I need to be faithful to Him with all that He has entrusted me with.

Maybe I am just too simplistic but it honestly works for me. I have peace. And peace is something that I value greatly, having experienced stress, despair and debilitating depression in the past.

Blessings,
Barbara

I most certainly do not think you are "off the mark", i feel we each in God's willing have different paths to to walk!

Hans Deventer

22nd December 2007, 12:32 PM (12:32)

My own father died at 53.

I'm sorry to hear, Randy. That is way too young.

Randy Wise

22nd December 2007, 07:35 PM (19:35)

"Complaints" how so? I am always searching for most God has for us, and settle for nothing less. Not saying my dear brother that you or anyone else does!

I hope you mean you are seeking God's Will, which is all He has to offer.:)

Randy

Steven Martinez

23rd December 2007, 03:03 AM (03:03)

I hate to jump in late but here is my observation. First of all Hans asked about the Spiritual gift of healing. I have this Spiritual gift. I discovered it when I had assesment for Youth in Mission. This assesment was baised on the evidence of others and not my own. I think it is a rare gift for I have not met anyone else who has claimed to have had it. I think it is in the camp of tounges and interpretation in regards to rarity in the Church.
God has used me to heal many people in my short life. When I was in Tonga for two months, God used me to heal at least three people of serious illness or ailments. One of these was life threatening as a child was battling a severe fever were he was sweating, convulsing and was burning to the touch. After laying hands and praying the boy ceased all symptoms and went to sleep. (I am writing this to give an example of how God has used this gift and not to brag or bring glory to myself)

Here are my observations about this gift:
1. It is a difficult gift to have. It causes a lot of stress in my life. When I pray for healing it consumes me until it happens. I lose sleep and find myself physically and spiritually worn down.
2. It is truly a Spiritual gift in that the Spirit has guided me to pray for healing in the specific case. Each time I feel lead to pray for someone in this manner the person has always been healed. Cannot explain why nor do I care to try. For example, my 6 year neice was never to be born alive. The doctors discovered a tumor on her lungs while in the womb at the first ultra sound. She essentially had no lungs. The doctors recomended an abortion since she was never going to make it. My entire family was devistated... except for me. As soon as I was called with the horrible news, I heard a voice inside me that said, "I will heal her, just believe." I told my mother that second while on the phone that God revealed that to me. Every ultra sound the tumor shrank until she was born and had a minor surgery to remove the growth which took the doctors an hour to find since it was so small.
3. I believe that many believer lack faith. After my niece was born I was flooded by people in our church telling me that they could not believe that she made it. Many people expected her to be still born. It is easy to say we believe but it is difficult to actually show faith. I think of my sister who showed faith by not aborting her daughter when every doctor told her to do so.
4. Many Christians do not know how to pray for healing. Many Christians pray to ask that God may heal. Jesus taught His disciples to heal by using His name. Hans is right in that Jesus did not ask God to heal but healed with the authority given Him by God. Many believers are afraid that God might not heal and hold back. If we allow fear to paralyse us then we are not living in faith. When I use this gift it consumes me spirtually and physically. I refer to it as getting whupped by God.
5. This gift is a gift of authority. What I mean is that it is similar to gifts of apostleship or leadership in that the person with the gift has to take charge. Often that means I find myself alone or a odds with others because many do not want to disrupt the status quo. If I feel the Spirit guide me to heal I stop everything and do it. At the same time, since it is a gift of authority we can guide people to follow where we are going. In the church that I am an associate at, we have seen many healings in my time here. I believe we are at a point were people come expecting to be healed. Many have, so far I have not heard of any complaints.

Those are my own opinons and observations on the gift of healing. Please do not see this post as a prideful pat on the back for me. Hans, you have been saying that we should strive for the greater gifts, I agree whole heartedly but you might want to think twice about healing since it really puts you through the ringer. At least in my experience but the joy in seeing people healed and miracles happen make it worth it.