Judgment from the future

[Mike Schutz]

Scott's thread on sanctification and the surrounding culture has raised some wonderful questions that will distract me from my legitimate work late on this snowy Wednesday night, but...

His questions got me wondering about what future generations will find at fault with us. What will future followers of Christ see as our blind spots that they will find shocking, in the same way that we look back on, for example, racism?

I wonder. Will it be our deafening silence on environmental concerns? Our lack of action to stop the slaughter of the unborn?

It is my opinion that the church's often hateful rhetoric toward homosexuals will be be viewed by future generations as the most shameful, unChristian, and irrational of our moral failures.

[Scott Daniels]

I agree with yours. I also think that our globalized great grandchildren will probably be embarrassed about the way we (particularly Americans) have been blending faith with nationalism.

[Kevin Rector]

I agree with yours. I also think that our globalized great grandchildren will probably be embarrassed about the way we (particularly Americans) have been blending faith with nationalism.

I don't know about globalized great grandchildren, but I sure am embarrassed by it!!

[Billy Cox]

If future generations are as historically myopic as we are, they won't know or care what our political positions were.

Can the average Nazarene say anything of substance about which side of the Civil Rights Movement that the Church of the Nazarene (USA) came down on? Did we favor universal suffrage or did we oppose it? Did we even have a unified, biblically informed position on issues, or did each local church simply parrot whatever the conservative regional political viewpoint happened to be?

I think that we overestimate just how much future generations will care about the stuff that we find so important today.

[Bob Evans]

My comments about future judgment reflect where I work and where I live. So if ther not far reaching enough then consider the source.

I think future generations will wonder greatly Why Christians of today spend more time defining their individuality as a group rather than working together to resolve societies problems.

I work with a number of people that I disagree with theologically. However, the one thing that holds us together is that Jesus is a good swap for addicitions. Because we recognize the common enemy we can work together in this situation where otherwise we might not have much to do with each other.

[Dale Cozby]

If future generations are as historically myopic as we are, they won't know or care what our political positions were.

Can the average Nazarene say anything of substance about which side of the Civil Rights Movement that the Church of the Nazarene (USA) came down on? Did we favor universal suffrage or did we oppose it? Did we even have a unified, biblically informed position on issues, or did each local church simply parrot whatever the conservative regional political viewpoint happened to be?

I think that we overestimate just how much future generations will care about the stuff that we find so important today.

Billy I think you took the words out of my mouth.

I think that future generations(of Christians, followers of the way, the sheep, the saints, the elect) will look back at us shake their heads in dismay, stand in awe that somehow through the ages God has miraculously managed to keep the gospel intact enough for some of them to believe and be saved, then place their faith in the saving grace of God(as revealed in the person of Jesus Christ) like every other generation has done before them and will do after them. Then hope they don't screw up other people along their way with preaching some other gospel than the one that brought them into the full assurance of their salvation.

"Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves."

The whole crowd of disciples began joyfully to praise God in loud voices for all the miracles they had seen: "Blessed is the king who comes in the name of the Lord!, Peace in heaven and glory in the highest!"
Some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to Jesus, "Teacher, rebuke your disciples!". "I tell you," he replied, "if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out."

[Mike Schutz]

If future generations are as historically myopic as we are, they won't know or care what our political positions were.

Can the average Nazarene say anything of substance about which side of the Civil Rights Movement that the Church of the Nazarene (USA) came down on? Did we favor universal suffrage or did we oppose it? Did we even have a unified, biblically informed position on issues, or did each local church simply parrot whatever the conservative regional political viewpoint happened to be?

I think that we overestimate just how much future generations will care about the stuff that we find so important today.

Even teenagers are aware of the institutional church's role in support of some of the most shameful events in history, whether they be hundreds of years ago: the Crusades, Salem witch trials, etc., or modern: mixed messages concerning slavery, acquiescence by much of the church in Germany to the Nazi regime, encouragement for a "wait" attitude among the southern pastors that led to Dr. King's "Letter from Birmingham Jail," etc.

The young people I spend time with ask, "how could followers of Jesus Christ have been so wrong on so many moral issues?"

My question was, are we doing things today that future generations will find equally indefensible?

[Anne and Dwayne Hood]

We are responsible for setting the example today, that will help our children and grands, know what serving Christ really is.
The article I posted that our daughter Robyn sent to me, opened my eyes a lot concerning some of the things you folk have been saying. I could not totally understand, until I read it. We had been doing the right things all along. Not that we are perfect, I appreciate that our elders had set the example before us. Now, we all need to continue doing so, for those who are watch all of our lives these days.

[Hans Deventer]

The young people I spend time with ask, "how could followers of Jesus Christ have been so wrong on so many moral issues?"

Because love wasn't the first motive.

My question was, are we doing things today that future generations will find equally indefensible?

Likely. Perhaps the division in numerous denominations?

[Dale Cozby]

*insert tongue in cheek*

It really makes me wonder how so evil and vile a people as "those so-called Christians" of past generations could have passed the gospel down to us in such a pure form so as to create such noble and pious people as we have here on Naznet that we can sit in judgement of them for allowing slavery, racism, wars, greed, poverty, and more to exist in thier "Christian Culture".

I wonder what we still condemn that they will be dismayed over. We used to condemn divorce, fornication, smoking, drinking, and more just a half of a generation ago.

If the condemnation of homosexuality as sinful by the church of today is going to be shameful, then I imagine they will likewise condemn us for our disdain of pedophilia(horrible now, but just wait), adultery, our inability to remove poverty and the inequality of all peoples, they will absolutely be ashamed of our patriotism(love of country), and our cushy upper & middle-class lifestyles , taking vacations with our money rather than giving to the poor and needy, our materialism as we buy new clothes at the mall, new TVs, new $1000+ cameras, luxury cars, all the latest gadgets instead of giving that money to the poor & needy. Yes, they will condemn us for being "cultural Christians".

Yes, there will be lots future generations can condemn this generation for and they will likewise think of themselves as more enlightened just as we do.
*remove tongue from cheek*

I think a better question would be: What do you think future generations will praise us for?

"O my God, I am too ashamed and disgraced to lift up my face to you, my God, because our sins are higher than our heads and our guilt has reached to the heavens. From the days of our forefathers until now, our guilt has been great. Because of our sins, we and our kings and our priests have been subjected to the sword and captivity, to pillage and humiliation at the hand of foreign kings, as it is today.
"But now, for a brief moment, the LORD our God has been gracious in leaving us a remnant and giving us a firm place in his sanctuary, and so our God gives light to our eyes and a little relief in our bondage." Ezra 9:6-8

"you say, 'If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets.

[Charles W Christian]

*insert tongue in cheek*

It really makes me wonder how so evil and vile a people as "those so-called Christians" of past generations could have passed the gospel down to us in such a pure form so as to create such noble and pious people as we have here on Naznet that we can sit in judgement of them for allowing slavery, racism, wars, greed, poverty, and more to exist in thier "Christian Culture".

I wonder what we still condemn that they will be dismayed over. We used to condemn divorce, fornication, smoking, drinking, and more just a half of a generation ago.

If the condemnation of homosexuality as sinful by the church of today is going to be shameful, then I imagine they will likewise condemn us for our disdain of pedophilia(horrible now, but just wait), adultery, our inability to remove poverty and the inequality of all peoples, they will absolutely be ashamed of our patriotism(love of country), and our cushy upper & middle-class lifestyles , taking vacations with our money rather than giving to the poor and needy, our materialism as we buy new clothes at the mall, new TVs, new $1000+ cameras, luxury cars, all the latest gadgets instead of giving that money to the poor & needy. Yes, they will condemn us for being "cultural Christians".

Yes, there will be lots future generations can condemn this generation for and they will likewise think of themselves as more enlightened just as we do.
*remove tongue from cheek*

I think a better question would be: What do you think future generations will praise us for?

"O my God, I am too ashamed and disgraced to lift up my face to you, my God, because our sins are higher than our heads and our guilt has reached to the heavens. From the days of our forefathers until now, our guilt has been great. Because of our sins, we and our kings and our priests have been subjected to the sword and captivity, to pillage and humiliation at the hand of foreign kings, as it is today.
"But now, for a brief moment, the LORD our God has been gracious in leaving us a remnant and giving us a firm place in his sanctuary, and so our God gives light to our eyes and a little relief in our bondage." Ezra 9:6-8

"you say, 'If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets.

I see your joke here, but the way we have made homosexuality an almost "unpardonable sin" in many segments of the Church will come back to haunt us, I think, in much the same way we made divorced people feel like outcast just a couple of generations ago....and alcoholics feel like outcasts a couple of generations before that!

In response to you and to Billy, I would agree with Mike (thereby technically disagreeing with you both) that generations today do not know the role of Christians in vital issues of previous generations! This is especially true in regard to race. We as a denomination actually were ahead of the curve a bit, at least in our "official statements" (Manual) on race, since we made strong declarations against segregation in the late 40s/early 50s. This is a good thing, I believe, since many Evangelicals were not being so forthright at that time, especially (but not ONLY) in the South. However, our actions have not always quickly followed our official statements, and people (esp. plugged in young people) are aware of this, too, even now!

I think we are making good strides to "catch up" to our good intentions of 50 years ago in regard to race. I think we as American Nazarenes are far too nationalistic, seeing Americanism as our real religion and Christianity as a vehicle through which our Americanism may flow, and that aggravates me, and I think it will be sore spot for future generations, too. (I recognize I'm generalizing a bit in my assessments here, but you know what I mean....).

Hey, maybe future generations will have such a strong grasp of the doctrine of entire sanctification that they will look back and say, "Why did we get in such an uproar about changing a few words in our Manual back then?" :basic05

One could only dream....

:basic07

Blessings,
Charles

[Billy Cox]

In response to you and to Billy, I would agree with Mike (thereby technically disagreeing with you both) that generations today do not know the role of Christians in vital issues of previous generations! This is especially true in regard to race. We as a denomination actually were ahead of the curve a bit, at least in our "official statements" (Manual) on race, since we made strong declarations against segregation in the late 40s/early 50s. This is a good thing, I believe, since many Evangelicals were not being so forthright at that time, especially (but not ONLY) in the South. However, our actions have not always quickly followed our official statements, and people (esp. plugged in young people) are aware of this, too, even now!

I don't find it so hard to believe that the denomination took progressive positions in the past. But I also acknowledge that the Nazarene Church is not a monolith. Some churches surely just shook their heads in disbelief as the denomination took the 'wrong' position on certain social issues.

There are certainly a slice of the Church who are paying attention and know the relationship of Church to society, but unless they do their own research they probably do not know where the Nazarenes fit into the last 100 years of history.

[Roland Hearn]

Here is what I believe we will stand condemned or at least challenged for by future generations: spending so much time discussing, debating and arguing over social and political issues with an activist rhetoric while failing miserably to interpret the gospel in a language that the world understands.

I think we will get there, I think we will impact the world greatly with the message of grace and when we have done that the social and political issues will be addressed as a result and the generations will look at us and wonder why we held on to language, methodology and structures decades after they had ceased to communicate.

In addition I think as Billy Cox suggested that the issues we think are important today will probably not be a century from today.

BTW while I think it is inappropriate to mix Christianity and Nationalism I think it is a fairy story to believe there will ever be a globalized community. There will be much more of a global culture but you will never take away nationalism in a 1000 years. The strongest reason is a thing called parochialism. It is one of the most powerful components of the human make up. If Yugoslavia couldn't work I doubt a United World would ever work.

[Scott Daniels]

BTW while I think it is inappropriate to mix Christianity and Nationalism I think it is a fairy story to believe there will ever be a globalized community.

Forgive me if I implied that in my remarks. I agree with your sentiments. But I do think there is a good chance our more globally-minded grandchildren will look at the way we in the US have held to a kind of myth of a Christian nation and be sorry that we were slow to move toward a more Pentecost (in the barrier-breaking sense of the word) oriented faith.

If current trends continue they may also be so post-denominational that they will see a lot of what we have done as narrowly focused tribalism.

[Glenda Harvey]

We are responsible for setting the example today, that will help our children and grands, know what serving Christ really is.
The article I posted that our daughter Robyn sent to me, opened my eyes a lot concerning some of the things you folk have been saying. I could not totally understand, until I read it. We had been doing the right things all along. Not that we are perfect, I appreciate that our elders had set the example before us. Now, we all need to continue doing so, for those who are watch all of our lives these days.

Anne,

I missed this post and would be interested in reading the article. Can you tell me what thread I can find it on?