Interesting Article from Barna Research

[Billie Goodson]

Thread Title should read: "Interesting article based on Barna research"

From Article:
"As fewer Americans identify themselves with Christianity, research indicates that those who remain Christian are redefining what "Christian" means.
Younger generations are not bound by traditional parameters of the Christian faith and instead are embracing values that are not necessarily based on biblical foundations, according to a recent analysis by The Barna Group."

Rest Here (http://www.christianpost.com/article/20071204/30332_2007_Trends_Analysis%3A_Americans_Reformulat ing_Christianity.htm)

[Billy Cox]

As I read the article, I was trying to identify parts of the article that were not said about the younger generations of the 60's, 70's, 80's, and 90's.

I could republish the article as-is in 2027 and it will probably still 'feel' true to a certain segment of the Church that fears what their hellraiser children are becoming.

[Billie Goodson]

As I read the article, I was trying to identify parts of the article that were not said about the younger generations of the 60's, 70's, 80's, and 90's.

I could republish the article as-is in 2027 and it will probably still 'feel' true to a certain segment of the Church that fears what their hellraiser children are becoming.

1960's/70's/80's/90's or 1860's/70's/80's/90's -- you have identified some of my problem with the "post-modernist" movement.

[Billy Cox]

What does that have to do with postmodernism? (just curious)

[James Diggs]

Here are some quotes from the article and my initial response to some of it.

Although faith is an acceptable attribute and pursuit among most young people, their notions of faith do not align with conventional religious perspectives or behavior, the research group reported on Monday.
Young Americans have adopted values such as goodness, kindness and tolerance, but they remain skeptical of the Bible, church traditions, and rules or behaviors based upon religious teaching.

You know the thing is goodness, kindness, and tolerance actually sums up better the fruit of following Jesus than understanding the Bible, church traditions and religious rules and behaviors.

Concluding from an earlier Barna study in May, David Kinnaman, president of The Barna Group, had noted that most Americans do not have strong and clear beliefs largely because they do not possess a coherent biblical worldview. The study found that fewer Americans were embracing a traditional view of God and the Bible.

Is there really such a thing as a “biblical worldview”?

The image of the Christian faith has also taken a beating. Media criticism, "unchristian" behavior by church people, bad personal experiences with churches, ineffective Christian leadership amid social crises and the like have given rise to this "battered" image, according to the report. A September study had found that young Americans outside Christianity have more negative perceptions than positive of the Christian faith. A majority say that Christianity is judgmental, anti-homosexual, hypocritical, old-fashioned and too involved in politics.

It is amazing to me that God still is glorified in the world; when “church people” act hateful and wrong the world still know enough to call it “unchristian”. I think it is a fair question to ask where the church has been when it comes to the lack of leadership it has presented during social crisis. Instead of being a positive force we are instead known for being “judgmental, anti-homosexual, hypocritical, old-fashioned and too involved in politics.”


At the same time, 91 percent of evangelicals believe that Americans are becoming more hostile and negative toward Christianity.

This one really bothers me about evangelicals, instead of understanding that this hostility stems from the fruit (or lack of) of how we have lived out Christ in this country we instead embrace wild conspiracy theories that further entrench us in “us verses them” language and on top of that make it sound as if we are being spiritual for doing it.

These kinds of studies are often used by evangelicals to show how far off and lost the world is, I think they say a lot more about how far off and lost the church has become.

[Dave McClung]

As fewer Americans identify themselves with Christianity, research indicates that those who remain Christian are redefining what "Christian" means.
Younger generations are not bound by traditional parameters of the Christian faith and instead are embracing values that are not necessarily based on biblical foundations, according to a recent analysis by The Barna Group.

Rest Here (http://www.christianpost.com/article/20071204/30332_2007_Trends_Analysis%3A_Americans_Reformulat ing_Christianity.htm)

I have not had time to study this particular article by Barna, but in the past, when I have reviewed the data and read Barna's conclusions I have found that Barna makes large jumps in logic from the data to the conclusions. Any time you form opinons on the Barna research, take the time to read the questions that were asked before you accept the Barna conclusions.

[Anne and Dwayne Hood]

Our children are embracing systems, that were in place, long ago, some in todays ways, and bringing them to the forefront, as a postmodernist would...ways of reaching out to a sinful dying world. I mean OUR as mine and Dwayne's children.

[Michael B. Ross]

AMEN, Dave, AMEN.

I have not had time to study this particular article by Barna, but in the past, when I have reviewed the data and read Barna's conclusions I have found that Barna makes large jumps in logic from the data to the conclusions. Any time you form opinons on the Barna research, take the time to read the questions that were asked before you accept the Barna conclusions.

[Billie Goodson]

I have not had time to study this particular article by Barna, but in the past, when I have reviewed the data and read Barna's conclusions I have found that Barna makes large jumps in logic from the data to the conclusions. Any time you form opinons on the Barna research, take the time to read the questions that were asked before you accept the Barna conclusions.


What you stated Dave is extremely important! It cannot be over emphasized. And, more importantly, when you see someone else use Barna's research, it really needs to be researched. I think much of the "evil" of Barna is more correctly attributable to others who take his research out of context. There is a glaring example of that I found when I reviewed McLaren's book "A New Kind of Christian."

[William Hunter]

The fact that Barna's business background, void of theological training, comes through in his reading of his research, if not in the very questions he forms with which to do research. I found that most evident in his book "Revolution." In it I found him almost ignorant of a Scriptural idea of the Church.

I have questioned his work in the past, but after "Revolution," I rarely bother to read his "results." I do not find him sound in many ways.





I have not had time to study this particular article by Barna, but in the past, when I have reviewed the data and read Barna's conclusions I have found that Barna makes large jumps in logic from the data to the conclusions. Any time you form opinons on the Barna research, take the time to read the questions that were asked before you accept the Barna conclusions.

[Billie Goodson]

Interesting response William. Would you say that theological training is a requirement for evaluating the scriptural idea of the church?

[William Hunter]

I'm not sure it is required, but for Barna it would prove helpful since he seems to have a lack of Scripture understanding of the Church. I think his lack of understanding here and seeing the church through the mindset of an MBA, causes him to misread too much of his research, if not scew the way he asks quesitons.




Interesting response William. Would you say that theological training is a requirement for evaluating the scriptural idea of the church?

[Billie Goodson]

I'm not sure it is required, but for Barna it would prove helpful since he seems to have a lack of Scripture understanding of the Church. I think his lack of understanding here and seeing the church through the mindset of an MBA, causes him to misread too much of his research, if not scew the way he asks quesitons.

Interesting response. I really don't follow Barna, or more accurately the Barna Group and have never read any of his works. My first exposure to his research was in researching some points for a review I worked on for McLaren's book.

I inherently distrust most surveys. I always want to see the questions before I accept the results as definitive. I was once told that statistics are just numbers to support lies -- while that is not true, what is true is that many will distort the numbers to reflect their own agenda. Much like the polls on here where we often resort to picking an approximation of the best answer due to the options presented.

However, I only present the article for discussion. I think some of it is interesting, especially how people see the church from outside of it. DA Weaver has indicated in the thread on the bible for her new Christian friend how much the perception (and realities) of the church impact our message. So, I find the Barna research to just be a good discussion started.

[James Diggs]

I'm not sure it is required, but for Barna it would prove helpful since he seems to have a lack of Scripture understanding of the Church. I think his lack of understanding here and seeing the church through the mindset of an MBA, causes him to misread too much of his research, if not scew the way he asks quesitons.

William, I have never read any of Barna’s books, can you give an example of how he lacks a scriptural understanding of the church?

Thanks

James

[Dave McClung]

As fewer Americans identify themselves with Christianity, research indicates that those who remain Christian are redefining what "Christian" means.
Younger generations are not bound by traditional parameters of the Christian faith and instead are embracing values that are not necessarily based on biblical foundations, according to a recent analysis by The Barna Group.

Rest Here (http://www.christianpost.com/article/20071204/30332_2007_Trends_Analysis%3A_Americans_Reformulat ing_Christianity.htm)

Billie, while I don't really have strong opinions about the opinions expressed, I take exception to the term "research indicates." I went back and read the article you referenced. It wasn't research. It claimed to be an "analysis" of research, but was really just an editorial. In several places in the editorial, it commented on what some research had found, but it really didn't provide any way to check the conclusions. In my opnion that isn't "research."

Research starts with data and ends with conclusions. More often than not, editorials start with conclusions. Often those who write such articles try to make them appear to be research by referencing research which tends to support the author's opinion. In my opinion such articles have value only because they make us think. They have no value in establishing facts.

I found nothing to support the conclusion that "Christians who remain Christians are redefining what "Christian" means." To say that "research indicates" may be true, but nothing in the article allowed us to check that research.

[Billie Goodson]

Billie, while I don't really have strong opinions about the opinions expressed, I take exception to the term "research indicates." I went back and read the article you referenced. It wasn't research. It claimed to be an "analysis" of research, but was really just an editorial. In several places in the editorial, it commented on what some research had found, but it really didn't provide any way to check the conclusions. In my opnion that isn't "research."

Research starts with data and ends with conclusions. More often than not, editorials start with conclusions. Often those who write such articles try to make them appear to be research by referencing research which tends to support the author's opinion. In my opinion such articles have value only because they make us think. They have no value in establishing facts.

I found nothing to support the conclusion that "Christians who remain Christians are redefining what "Christian" means." To say that "research indicates" may be true, but nothing in the article allowed us to check that research.

Dave,

I added some text at the beginning of the first post to attempt to clarify the post. You are correct that it is an op/ed piece that is based on some Barna Research. It should only be taken for what it is, and my earlier statement regarding research of items based on Barna group research being important is applicable.

I believe the original Barna work is here (http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=Resource&ResourceID=288).

Hope this helps in clearing this up.

[Roland Hearn]

I have enjoyed some of Barna's books and I think he does have some insights but increasingly as time has gone it seems to me he writes and researches with an agenda. I have found myself asking exactly the same questions as Dave and others have posed here. His research may be good - I'm sure it is but the trends and conclusions he comes up with always seem to filter the research. I've stopped listening to him.

As I said in another post, I think our kids have some stuff to work through - welcome to the real world. I think they will work through it. I think they are a part of a pendulum swing but the good things about pendulum swings are they usually come back. I think some of this particular swing is about coming to the middle anyway. Our kids will be ok, unless Christ returns the world will go on, they will become adults, they will be presidents and kings and businessmen and scientists and taxi drivers and parents and pastors and street dwellers. They will change the world a little and some of it will be good. By the time they are in their 50's many of them will be wringing their hands about the fate of the world when their kids take over. It is the way of it but actually it's called growing up.

[Charles W Christian]

For me, Barna has some outstanding books from about 15 years ago or so; however, those good books were taken to extremes where folks tried to "mass produce" models that sort of "fit" into the Barna agenda. This led to some catostrophic experiments and twisting of the definition of "church" that became more consumer-oriented rather than Scripture based (in my opinion).

I think Barna's recent work demonstrates his frustration with the "church"; however, his main frustrations, ironically, have been focused upon some of the very churches he helped create! It's like Dr. Frankenstein created the monster, and then attacking the monster and saying that all science is bad!

Meanwhile, the "best" of what the church is and can be is ignored because it was never really factored into Barna's defintion of a "sucessful church" to start with!!

Anyway, that's my strange analogy for the day....

Blessings,
Charles

[John Kennedy]

Your 'strange analogy' makes a lot of sense. My wariness with Barna is based on several things: the 'leap in logic' referred to by others, and the 'agenda' orientation from which he appears to proceed - he's become almost a fixture in what I think of as the 'church repair industry'. I was a part of a congregation which underwent some of that repair. IMO that particular group never recovered.