cart before the horse?

[Linda Schroller]

I was privy to an interesting conversation yesterday.

The proposition was made that there is a deep problem in US churches today: Whether it is charismatics and pentecostals urging people to be "spirit filled" or holiness folks urging people to be "entirely sanctified" or calvinists and dispensationalists urging people to "make Jesus Lord of their life" we tend to forget the first step is to be born again. Second blessings are just that--second. Salvation has to come first, and that step is often ignored.

I can say I agree for the area I live in. What think the rest of you?

[Richard Call]

Linda, ES is not separate from salvation. It is entering into the complete rest and growth in grace. It is cleansing from the sinful nature to enable us to grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord. You cannot be entirely sanctified until you are fully born again of the Spirit. You are right. To go any other direction is getting the cart before the horse. When you are saved by the grace of God and sanctified wholly you have the horse in the right place.

[Tami Martin]

I agree Linda.

[Anne and Dwayne Hood]

I have heard it said that some of the charismatics seem to skip the first step, and try to lead people into the second, as if that will take care of the entire situation. It seems to me, that a person, should take step one of being forgiven of their sins (plural), before going into the next step of being cleansed from the sin (singular), the carnal nature, that leads to sin, in the first place. Then we grow and mature, after that.

[Jim Monck]

At which step is a person's heart made pure?

[Roland Hearn]

I've heard it said, and I think it is true, "preach holiness and people get saved."

[Glenda Harvey]

Linda, when I was growing up the emphisis in sermons seemed to be on salvation. What I saw was a lot of people being saved but little follow through. The focus of many Churches now is for it's members to be the evangelical tools to bring people to Christ and the Churches role is to help them grow in Christ. Thus the emphisis on spiritual growth. ie: Sanctification, Spirit Filled lives, Making Jesus Lord, etc. The result is stronger more reslilient Christians and less back sliding. I think it is as it should be.

[Wilson L. Deaton]

I was privy to an interesting conversation yesterday.

The proposition was made that there is a deep problem in US churches today: Whether it is charismatics and pentecostals urging people to be "spirit filled" or holiness folks urging people to be "entirely sanctified" or calvinists and dispensationalists urging people to "make Jesus Lord of their life" we tend to forget the first step is to be born again. Second blessings are just that--second. Salvation has to come first, and that step is often ignored.

I can say I agree for the area I live in. What think the rest of you?

I agree with what several others have said regarding the ideas that holiness is part and parcel to salvation, holiness preaching gets people saved, holiness preaching nets better results, etc.

However, I also think that way too often churches are more involved in winning people to a theological system than they are in getting them into a right relationship with God. In that sense, the cart does too often come before the horse.

Wilson

[Linda Schroller]

Wilson--I agree with your last statement. We've moved around a lot, and it seems different areas we lived in were predominately one theology or another. Honestly, I cannot say I saw what Glenda has seen--but then, we haven't lived in the same areas.

When we lived in NM, the emphasis was dispensational and on salvation. People were getting saved, and I never saw a lack of follow through. As soon as folks were saved, they were connected with a group for discipling.

When we lived in ND, and "met" my grandma's group, the Nazarenes, the local preacher preached both salvation and holiness. To the unsaved he made it plain justification precedes sanctification. To the "half saved" or saved but unsanctified the challenge was to go on in holiness.

Here we seem to be just inundated with pentecostals and charismatics. They are so focused on getting life in order (think prosperous and healthy) and focused on following this scriptural principle and that one that they seem never to mention salvation.

Local Calvinists are way into the "profit driven church" movement (tongue in cheek a bit) and more concerned with church growth than with making sure people are in relationship with the Lord.

And Glenda--I so agree with preaching holiness--provided the preacher is clear that it not "step one". That is, it must be clearly preached that God saves sinners, and then is willing to cleanse the consecrated heart. That is so different than preaching that you can come to God for the blessings without repentance and faith for salvation first.

One place we lived the preaching to the lost was "come and be sanctified". It just didn't work. People were not getting either saved or sanctified.

Of course, I agree that just preaching salvation without preaching sanctification would be just as huge a mistake.

Good discussion going on.

[Gordon Greene]

Too often we get the cart, horse, and other things before what truly matters, the Cross. At the Cross we all stand on equal ground and there is no need for carts and horses.

The Cross is our beginning and the cross is our goal. Those who dwell in the shadow of the Cross share in its' joys and pain. I don't know, maybe at the Cross being right just doesn't mean so much as being right.

.....peace.....

[Linda Schroller]

Amen!!

[Billy Cox]

I was privy to an interesting conversation yesterday.

The proposition was made that there is a deep problem in US churches today: Whether it is charismatics and pentecostals urging people to be "spirit filled" or holiness folks urging people to be "entirely sanctified" or calvinists and dispensationalists urging people to "make Jesus Lord of their life" we tend to forget the first step is to be born again. Second blessings are just that--second. Salvation has to come first, and that step is often ignored.

I can say I agree for the area I live in. What think the rest of you?

I just cannot imagine God ignoring a prayer of faith because the person praying gets their works of grace out of sequence. Our theological systems can be helpful, but God is certainly not bound to them.

[Anne and Dwayne Hood]

Linda, I totally agree with you. And Jim Monck, you know the answer to your question, up one side, and down the other.
And, as I have said, many people, I believe, are sanctified, that has never known about our doctrine. They grew in the Lord, and surrendered their all to Him, and their hearts were purified by love-And, God is love.

[Wilson L. Deaton]

I just cannot imagine God ignoring a prayer of faith because the person praying gets their works of grace out of sequence. Our theological systems can be helpful, but God is certainly not bound to them.

If you keep saying things like this you are going to let God out of the box.

Wilson

[Roland Hearn]

If you keep saying things like this you are going to let God out of the box.

Wilson

I am firmly of the opinion that God is much bigger than our boxes. Our boxes are about us and what we find comfortable. I think that sometimes God is amused by our boxes. Yet I am also willing to concede that our boxes are helpful. Praise the God that is bigger than boxes but still willing to fit in them.

I am very much aware today of how much I do not want to force God into my constructs but how willing He is to express His love in constructs that make sense to me.

[Billy Cox]

It feels right to say stuff like this, but it's also good way attract the hatred of the other participants in a Bible study group.

[Linda Schroller]

Billy--I would agree with you EXCEPT the prayers these folks (in my area) are being urged to pray run paraphrased something like this:

You may not have given your heart to Jesus or repented of your sins but your money is a mess. Just have faith and turn your finances over to Him and you will be monetarily blessed.

Or: WITHOUT preaching the necessity of repentance and faith leading to rebirth folks are being asked to surrender to Jesus to clean up their morals.

Or the very strange "Baptist" (I am sure most Baptists would reject this man) preacher who told a young man who had come to the altar seeking salvation to just rare back and speak in tongues and worry about salvation another time.

Or the holiness (not Naz) guy who kept hammering on sanctification ONLY so hard at one man the man finally told him "look, I am not a believer in Jesus so who cares about sanctification, whatever that is."

I am not suggesting that we put God in our theological box and try to hold Him there. I am saying I agree with the one party in the conversation who expressed the opinion we get the cart before the horse: trying to clean up lives, or get sinners to stop sinning, or whatever our particular vision of the "holy life" is WITHOUT THEM FIRST EXPERIENCING CONVERSION.

I definitely agree God will meet with the sincere seeking soul wherever they are, and use that to bring them to repentance and faith in Christ.

It does concern me that we are more likely to speak to them about finding prosperity or saving their marriage or breaking an addiction or fixing any other behavioral issue than we are about salvation.

Why do I feel this way? Simple--if we faithfully witness and teach and bring them to Jesus and they are saved and then teach them about sanctification (however you call it your system) both the here and the hereafter can be better. If we JUST concern ourselves with seeing them strive for improved lives without the indwelling Holy Spirit, the hereafter is still fiery and the here and now is not likely to improve long term. Even if it does, they are just a nicer lost soul.

One leader told me recently churches should not use terms like saved, lost, sin, sanctified, saint, sinner, etc because if we do the lost will not join the church anymore.
She went on to tell me that folks today find it threatening if you imply they need forgiveness and rebirth. She said folks are not interested in heaven and hell anymore, but in how to get through next Tuesday. If we focus on discipling them to improved moral lives and they feel better about their lives they will continue in the church.

When I asked at what point we teach them about the need for conversion she was appalled. (This lady is a leader in a strongly "evangelical" church.) The idea is that people today will accept Jesus as "a" way to God, but not "the" way to God. Preach the necessity of salvation and folks will leave the church.

To which I responded--so?? No wonder the church (in our area) is so weak and ineffective. Jesus said we cannot bear much fruit except we abide. Today we want to spruce up the vineyard, harvest the grapes, etc, but without branches connected to the vine.

Ah well--enough rambling. Billy Cox--your Bible study sounds lively and interesting.

[Billy Cox]

I agree that neglecting conversion is just a dumb thing to do.

I think that the best preaching is like a good cartoon. There is something for the neophytes, but also something for the more experienced people in the audience.

To put it another way, anointed preaching will lead the unconverted to seek conversion while also leading the unsanctified to seek sanctification. Different Christian traditions will have different terminology, but the realities are pretty much the same.