Spiritual realms resistence to prayer?

[Ian Gentles]

Daniel prayed but messenger angel was resisted to getting through to him in the spiritual realm.
Jesus in healing a boy said, "This kind comes out only by fasting and prayer". Is Jesus actually saying here that He couldent have healed without fasting?
I myself try to pray through, for myself, for others, but all prayers seem to bounce of roof! Some days i feel i cry out in hopeless desperation into an empty spiritual void. So how, if we are, is our prayers resisted in spiritual realms?
Course we could say our own selfs need to be right, but this leads to too much self examination, we will always find something wrong!
I have always seen prayer as communication with God, to according to Bible a prayer answering God! So what hinders this communication?

[Wilson L. Deaton]

Daniel prayed but messenger angel was resisted to getting through to him in the spiritual realm.
Jesus in healing a boy said, "This kind comes out only by fasting and prayer".

This statement (the "fasting" part) was based on corrupted manuscripts. Modern translations leave it out accordingly.

Wilson

[Ian Gentles]

So why did Jesus manage to do what disciples couldent? Remembering they were used to heal many sick folks?
However i still wonder about prayer being resisted in the spiritual realm/battle! What gets through and what dosent, if anything?

[Barbara Moulton]

So why did Jesus manage to do what disciples couldent? Remembering they were used to heal many sick folks?
However i still wonder about prayer being resisted in the spiritual realm/battle! What gets through and what dosent, if anything?

I do not believe that some of our prayers "get through" and some don't. I can't accept that some spritual battle would interfere with God hearing the prayers of His people.

God hears all my prayers. Every burden I cast on Him, every blessing I thank HIm for, ever word of love I pray to Him in worship. He is my abba and I know He is listening.

God hears all my prayers. I trust Him to answer them in the best way.

[Ian Gentles]

I do not believe that some of our prayers "get through" and some don't. I can't accept that some spritual battle would interfere with God hearing the prayers of His people.

God hears all my prayers. Every burden I cast on Him, every blessing I thank HIm for, ever word of love I pray to Him in worship. He is my abba and I know He is listening.

We often talk of "Hindrances" to prayer. Usually we are talking about the person them selfs, things in their lives hindering. I am personally not sure about this, as most could be said to have something in their lives.
We only know prayer is real, through different ways they are answered in different lives. Reading the boards it would seem, we, and our prayer experiences differ greatly.
Maybe when we are more desperate in prayer, not sure its good, we are more easily discouraged, our emotions can become the "Hindrance".
But i wonder are, times, places, harder to pray in with any felt or experienced affect? Prayer seems easier in good times, a conference, in revival times, than at other times and locations. We seem in UK to suffer due to spiritual darkness we live and move in. So i do wonder about spiritual forces of darkness being a hindrance?

[Barbara Moulton]

We often talk of "Hindrances" to prayer. Usually we are talking about the person them selfs, things in their lives hindering. I am personally not sure about this, as most could be said to have something in their lives.
We only know prayer is real, through different ways they are answered in different lives. Reading the boards it would seem, we, and our prayer experiences differ greatly.
Maybe when we are more desperate in prayer, not sure its good, we are more easily discouraged, our emotions can become the "Hindrance".
But i wonder are, times, places, harder to pray in with any felt or experienced affect? Prayer seems easier in good times, a conference, in revival times, than at other times and locations. We seem in UK to suffer due to spiritual darkness we live and move in. So i do wonder about spiritual forces of darkness being a hindrance?

Since I haven't been to a conference or revival in years I can't speak for the idea of prayers being "easier" in those settings. My spiritual journey has become much more peaceful (and dare I say victorious) when I chose contentment with what God is doing right now.

Would I like our church to be bigger? Of course. I'd love to see hundreds of cars turning into our parking lot every Sunday.

Am I praying for our church to be bigger? Nope. I simply surrender our church to God and ask that He direct Carl, myself and the people of the church to do His will in the here and now...with the resources and abilties and people we have in the here and now. I pray that He will guide us in the future.

Like I've said before, prayer for me is simply thanksgiving, worship, release of burdens and surrender of my life. I can't think of the last time that I prayed and actually told God what I wanted him to do. Whenever I get concerned about something (remember the bill at the church) I just give it to Him without telling Him what to do with it.

It's a peaceful way to live. It really is.

[Ian Gentles]

I have heard much said in years gone bye about how spiritual forces in different areas had to be broken through, thinking of many missionary stories i have heard and read. Reminds me of a revival in an English town that a preacher went to investigate, he asked train guard when how he would know he was nearing this town, and got reply, "oh you will feel it". It certainly would seem, when God's Spirit is moving God's presence is more easily felt. Maybe it the same where darkness reigns, His Spirit is not felt, and spiritual warfare is much harder?

[Barbara Moulton]

I have heard much said in years gone bye about how spiritual forces in different areas had to be broken through, thinking of many missionary stories i have heard and read. Reminds me of a revival in an English town that a preacher went to investigate, he asked train guard when how he would know he was nearing this town, and got reply, "oh you will feel it". It certainly would seem, when God's Spirit is moving God's presence is more easily felt. Maybe it the same where darkness reigns, His Spirit is not felt, and spiritual warfare is much harder?

In almost every place we've ministered, someone has spoken to us of an evangelist who saw a "dark spiritual cloud" over the town.

In Kingston it was supposedly because of the many prisons. In other towns it was for other reasons.

I took it all with a grain of salt myself.

God reigns. Not darkness.

[Ian Gentles]

Yes God reigns, but what am I to make of those missionary stories?

[Hans Deventer]

God reigns. Not darkness.

I guess the 6 million Jews that died during WW2 had a different take. Or a different definition of "reigns".

Whatever the word means, I still see a lot of darkness in this world. I subscribe to Paul Hewson's words: "The real battle just begun, to claim the victory Jesus won". For it obviously hasn't been claimed yet.

To me, the reign of God only means that He'll have the last word. For if what has happened in this world shows the reign of God, I'm not sure that would be the kind of God I'd want to believe in. For too many, this world is hell.

It's a pity. Every time I think we're on the same page (and I really want that), you say something that I simply cannot understand.

[Ian Gentles]

I think of the Pol Pot regime horrors happened to many including christians, such darkness. We had a time in Scottish church history when church was outlawed, its called "The Killing Season" We in west probably haven't experienced spiritual darkness fully!

[Barbara Moulton]

I guess the 6 million Jews that died during WW2 had a different take. Or a different definition of "reigns".

Whatever the word means, I still see a lot of darkness in this world. I subscribe to Paul Hewson's words: "The real battle just begun, to claim the victory Jesus won". For it obviously hasn't been claimed yet.

To me, the reign of God only means that He'll have the last word. For if what has happened in this world shows the reign of God, I'm not sure that would be the kind of God I'd want to believe in. For too many, this world is hell.

It's a pity. Every time I think we're on the same page (and I really want that), you say something that I simply cannot understand.

"For though the wrong seems oft so strong
God is the ruler yet."

Surely you are not saying that sin and darkness are more powerful than God?

I don't stand up on a Sunday morning and sing Darkness Reigns. I sing that Our God Reigns.

That's a fact. That's a truth. Despite the evil I see at work in the world I do believe that ultimately, God is reigning. And...that He hears everyone of my prayers.

[Barbara Moulton]

I think of the Pol Pot regime horrors happened to many including christians, such darkness. We had a time in Scottish church history when church was outlawed, its called "The Killing Season" We in west probably haven't experienced spiritual darkness fully!

But they haven't been able to quench the light of the Church. Even in the most darkest of times. Isn't that a sign that, ultimately, God is reigning?

[Ian Gentles]

In end God wins that dosent means darkness dosent reign in places for a time!

[Barbara Moulton]

In end God wins that dosent means darkness dosent reign in places for a time!

I won't argue that darkness seems stronger in some places. But I refuse to believe that there are some places of the world where God has withdrawn His authority as ruler of all things. Or a place where His power is weaker than the powers of darkness.

Do you really believe that there are places where God doesn't rule?

[Hans Deventer]

"For though the wrong seems oft so strong God is the ruler yet."

Surely you are not saying that sin and darkness are more powerful than God?

If One has more power but does not use it yet, then for all practical purposes right now the answer is yes.

I have two choices: either I don't have a clue what the meaning of "reign" or "rule" is (and then singing or saying it makes no sense), or I do and God isn't reigning or ruling yet. This world looks a lot more like the devil is ruling it. Thank God, we know he has been defeated and one day, the Lord will claim His victory. Until then, I would be blaspheming if I accused God of ruling this world with the meaning of ruling as I understand it.



I don't stand up on a Sunday morning and sing Darkness Reigns. I sing that Our God Reigns.

I never sing along with that verse. I don't see it.

That's a fact. That's a truth. Despite the evil I see at work in the world I do believe that ultimately, God is reigning. And...that He hears everyone of my prayers.

I believe He hears my prayers. But so far, the answer to my "How long, Lord, how long?" has not been given. So I align with the authors of the Psalms and pray with Jesus: "thy kingdom come, thy will be done". We're not there yet.

[Hans Deventer]

Do you really believe that there are places where God doesn't rule?

I do. He only rules in the hearts of those that allow Him to. There is the kingdom of God. It isn't anywhere else yet. We still pray for it to come and fill the earth.

[Barbara Moulton]

I am having just as hard a time understanding your position as I guess you are having understand mine. It's kind of weird. That's happened a few times lately. After all these years. Have both of us changed or just one of us? Anyway...love you brother.

Psalm 9:7
"The LORD reigns forever; he has established his throne for judgment."

[Ian Gentles]

I am with Hans, sorry, there are area's of darkness till Jesus comes!

[Barbara Moulton]

I am with Hans, sorry, there are area's of darkness till Jesus comes!

Without a doubt! I agree.

There are areas where darkness is greater. There have been periods of time when darkness seems stronger. There are people who allow darkness to rule in their hearts.

But ultimately, I believe that God is the ruler. Our God reigns!

And going back to the context of this thread, I believe that He hears my prayers. Powers of darkness can't stifle the sound of my prayers before Heaven.

[Marilyn Lawson]

Barbara

I have to agree with you - even thought there is so much darkness in the world that seems to encompass me at times.

I know that God is there and will not leave me alone.

I hold onto many different songs and the poem - Footprints

I have seen many very dark, black things and have seen no hope - I don't like it there.

So I hold onto Jesus and what he stands for and know he is there for me.

My two cents.

[Ian Gentles]

Darkness will reign till Jesus returns, and many sadly will suffer!

[Barbara Moulton]

Darkness will reign till Jesus returns, and many sadly will suffer!

Sure doesn't sound much like the Gospel of Good News to me.

[Ian Gentles]

Sure doesn't sound much like the Gospel of Good News to me.
Sadly its the truth in many ways. We want victory now, actually it isn't promised to the end, the final victory! Good news is our souls will be saved, not that we physically will be. Note Muslim converts put to death by own families, do sent darkness reign there? even though souls are saved?

[Ian Gentles]

Just to add, i saw London bombings, bits of bodies, terrible hysterical grief. Darkness reigned, but we christians were there con batting it, as you do in your work!

[Barbara Moulton]

Sadly its the truth in many ways. We want victory now, actually it isn't promised to the end, the final victory! Good news is our souls will be saved, not that we physically will be. Note Muslim converts put to death by own families, do sent darkness reign there? even though souls are saved?

I never said that God's reign means that we would be physically saved from all of life's ills or that none of us would suffer. That's not my point at all.

My point is that we do have victory in Jesus. He does provide us with an abundant life. He is supreme.

Blessings on you.

[Terri Knoll]

Since I haven't been to a conference or revival in years I can't speak for the idea of prayers being "easier" in those settings. My spiritual journey has become much more peaceful (and dare I say victorious) when I chose contentment with what God is doing right now.

Would I like our church to be bigger? Of course. I'd love to see hundreds of cars turning into our parking lot every Sunday.

Am I praying for our church to be bigger? Nope. I simply surrender our church to God and ask that He direct Carl, myself and the people of the church to do His will in the here and now...with the resources and abilties and people we have in the here and now. I pray that He will guide us in the future.

Like I've said before, prayer for me is simply thanksgiving, worship, release of burdens and surrender of my life. I can't think of the last time that I prayed and actually told God what I wanted him to do. Whenever I get concerned about something (remember the bill at the church) I just give it to Him without telling Him what to do with it.

It's a peaceful way to live. It really is.

amen sister.
sometimes people think God WILL answer all prayers yes, so they don't mention the need to anyone. How am I supposed to know Joe Blow lost his job and they are almost out of food if it isn't voiced to me? God answers prayers through His people. Like the people that paid that mortgage. I have seen it my whole life...experienced it several times. I DO believe God can move someone to act without knowing why also. In my early marriage, my husband was laid off in the winter months. (construction) We made do with canning and hunting (don't shoot me lol) and stretching the budget when times were good to make it through lean times. One year the pump went out in our well and that was a healthy chunk of our savings we paid out. That same week we received a check from my birth mothers mother (that we had almost no contact with) with a note attached saying God had laid it on her heart to send us that money! How big is God? that's just one of the several times people helped me out of the blue...and I have tried to pay it forward...that is one of the best ways God answers prayer to me...through His people. ooh I get a blessing just thinking about it!

[Ian Gentles]

so we agreed, we have to suffer?

[Barbara Moulton]

so we agreed, we have to suffer?

I never said we won't suffer.

But I serve a living Saviour. In Him I have the victory. And my God does reign.

[Randy Wise]

Daniel prayed but messenger angel was resisted to getting through to him in the spiritual realm.
Jesus in healing a boy said, "This kind comes out only by fasting and prayer". Is Jesus actually saying here that He couldent have healed without fasting?
I myself try to pray through, for myself, for others, but all prayers seem to bounce of roof! Some days i feel i cry out in hopeless desperation into an empty spiritual void. So how, if we are, is our prayers resisted in spiritual realms?
Course we could say our own selfs need to be right, but this leads to too much self examination, we will always find something wrong!
I have always seen prayer as communication with God, to according to Bible a prayer answering God! So what hinders this communication?

In regard to Daniel only the answer was delayed.. I can't see any power slowing down Gods Holy Spirit had God chosen that delivery method.
Randy

[Hans Deventer]

I am having just as hard a time understanding your position as I guess you are having understand mine. It's kind of weird. That's happened a few times lately. After all these years. Have both of us changed or just one of us?

I don't know. Maybe we just never discussed it.


Anyway...love you brother.

Oh, the love remains, no doubt about that. It's mutual, as you know.

Psalm 9:7
"The LORD reigns forever; he has established his throne for judgment."

Yes. The throne is there. The judgement hasn't been passed yet, though. As the Psalmists knew.

Psalm 82:8
Rise up, O God, judge the earth, for all the nations are your inheritance

Psalm 94:2
Rise up, O Judge of the earth; pay back to the proud what they deserve.

Psalm 96:10
Say among the nations, "The LORD reigns." The world is firmly established, it cannot be moved; he will judge the peoples with equity.

Psalm 96:13 they will sing before the LORD, for he comes,
he comes to judge the earth.
He will judge the world in righteousness
and the peoples in his truth.

Psalm 98:8 Let the rivers clap their hands,
Let the mountains sing together for joy;
9 let them sing before the LORD,
for he comes to judge the earth.
He will judge the world in righteousness
and the peoples with equity.

The reign of God is mostly related to what He will do, with a few exceptions where God has already acted. The hope of the Old Testament is that eventually, He will set things right. I agree. That is what I believe as well. But until today, He hasn't done so. The Kingdom He has established is only in those who believe.

So to speak of the reign of God is a very confusing phrase that needs so much explanation for it to make any sense, that I rather avoid it, unless it is about His reign in me.

I pray for the Kingdom (and reign) of God to come, when Rev 21 will become reality all over the new earth.

So if I sing this song, I skip the first few lines, but do sing along with the rest:

Over all the earth
You reign on high
Every mountain stream
Every sunset sky
But my one request
Lord my only aim
Is that You’d reign in me again


Lord reign in me
Reign in Your power
Over all my dreams
In my darkest hour
You are the Lord
Of all I am
So won’t You reign in me again


Over every thought
Over every word
May my life reflect
The beauty of my Lord
‘Cause you mean more to me
Than any earthly thing
So won’t You reign in me again

[Hans Deventer]

I never said that God's reign means that we would be physically saved from all of life's ills or that none of us would suffer.


Barbara, could you please define what you do mean by "reigns", especially regarding this world (not you personally)? That will help.

BTW, of course you don't have to if you don't want!

[Ian Gentles]

Course that leaves us again with the question, if God reigns why so much darkness?

[Hans Deventer]

Course that leaves us again with the question, if God reigns why so much darkness?

Because we live in the time of delay, and wait for the angel to announce that there will be no more delay (Rev 10:6-7)

[Ian Gentles]

Because we live in the time of delay, and wait for the angel to announce that there will be no more delay (Rev 10:6-7)

Well like many wish the "delay" was over. But this would suggest to us we, Hope with authority rather that pray with authority!
God also seems to reign more beneficially in certain locations and at certain times.
Regards darkness, its hard to imagine saying to a Jew in the concentration camps, "God reigns". To them it was obvious that darkness reigned!

[Hans Deventer]

Well like many wish the "delay" was over. But this would suggest to us we, Hope with authority rather that pray with authority!
God also seems to reign more beneficially in certain locations and at certain times.
Regards darkness, its hard to imagine saying to a Jew in the concentration camps, "God reigns". To them it was obvious that darkness reigned!

I agree. The Good News is John 3:16. It is not that all misery will end today. The last prayer of the Bible is for the coming of the Lord, and the grace of the Lord be with us till that day and beyond.

20 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon."
Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God's people. Amen.

[Ian Gentles]

But still, we pray because we are told to and have a desire to. We pray for people and things pertaining to God's Kingdom. I pray hopeing my prayer has some authority. But i also feel as i pray, spiritual darkness wrestles with me, almost seemingly to stop me getting through to God.

[Barbara Moulton]

Barbara, could you please define what you do mean by "reigns", especially regarding this world (not you personally)? That will help.

BTW, of course you don't have to if you don't want!


Ultimately, I believe that God, not evil is in charge. I can't fathom living in a world in which I believed that evil had the total upper hand.

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

Speaking as a pastor I think it is spiritually unhealthy to spend too much time worrying about why "my" prayers don't get through or how much current circumstances impact "my" theological view, etc.

Richard Foster writes that one summer he committed himself to spend a half hour each day reflecting on how his relationship with God had impacted his day. He thought through the events of the day and considered his actions, whether or not they reflected Christ.

He said it was helpful, but immediately added that this is not a long term approach for Christians. We are to be about the business of simply living in Christ day by day. That means that, for instance, rather than worrying about whether my prayers are being hindered by spiritual forces, that I just go on praying and living for the Lord, leaving the results in his hands.

Too much "me" stuff is not only spiritually unhealthy, it is mentally and emotionally unhealthy too. The vision the Lord gave us is to live in trust, seeking his Kingdom and not worrying about our lives.

[Genevieve Boller]

This is something that I have often struggled with. Most times, though, I am able to appease my fretting by remembering two very important things - and while they are important, they are often missed by us because they are hard for us to grasp in our (relatively) small, finite realities.

1. Time -- time is in God's hands. While we are bound by time and unable to escape it or see outside of it, God isn't. While we, down here, are trudging through the muck and can't see the light because of all the thorns, rain, and shadows, God is working in ways we can't see and on things that we can't perceive. Our minds can only understand what we see and hear and feel right now, but that doesn't mean that outside of this time God is not active--we just don't see what He's doing. An example (it's a pretty pathetic analogy, but hopefully it'll work nonetheless); I start buying Christmas goodies for my son in October. I'm planning things and collecting little treasures for him, hiding them in places he can't see. Let's say November is a horrible month--his dog dies, he breaks his arm, and he has trouble with some friends at school. The fact that he's experiencing a dark time in November doesn't change the reality that I'm hiding away good things for him to experience in the future (December), when the time is right.

2. Immutability -- God doesn't change. If we perceive darkness, that doesn't mean that God's light has disappeared. If we perceive evil, that doesn't mean that God isn't good. If we feel despair, it doesn't mean that God isn't there. He is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. Just because we experience, or feel, darkness doesn't mean that it is the complete, true reality--our experience (even if it's experienced by millions of people together at one time) is only one part of the whole. God's sovereignty and reign are unaffected by our perception of it and He sits on His throne, with all things in His hands, regardless of how it looks to us in the present time.

I struggled a great deal with the concept of suffering, and I wrestled with God constantly for a long time. What changed my life, and solidified my faith, was the above two concepts. I rest my head each night knowing that God is indeed sovereign and reigns no matter what, and that He holds all things (including time) in His hands.

Why did millions and millions of people in the Holocaust suffer and die horrific deaths? I can't wrap my mind around it. But I believe wholeheartedly in the almighty power of Grace, and that God can be nothing other than good. In that knowledge, I trust that the terrible suffering of all those people was neither unnoticed nor without consequence. God's will was, is, and will always be done, in the great scheme of things.

[Ian Gentles]

Some would say Holocaust moved Jews back to promised land, an interesting thought

[Genevieve Boller]

But i also feel as i pray, spiritual darkness wrestles with me, almost seemingly to stop me getting through to God.

Is that not exactly what the enemy wants us to believe?

Faith like that of a child is very powerful. We don't like to think of ourselves as children so we often shrug off that idea--we want to be adults and understand how things are done and why. But God knows that we can't ever come close to comprehending His plans and purposes, so he tells us "Trust me! Trust me like a child trusts his parents."

When my daughter asks me for lunch, she asks and then runs off playing. She doesn't worry about what's in the pantry, or how I'm going to make it, or if I have time, or if something else will come up and prevent me from making it for her...she asks me for what she needs, and trusts that I will provide it for her.

What is it that prevents you from trusting God? Just hand it over to Him--not doubting or worrying or wondering if it'll make it to His ears--and let Him deal with it. Have peace, knowing that you are not responsible for anything that you've put into His hands. (And once you've put it into His hands, resist the urge to take it back!)

[Randy Wise]

I am with Hans, sorry, there are area's of darkness till Jesus comes!

That happens at sunset for half the world:) Sorry just being silly as the thread is getting "dark" and needs to lighten up.

I think Barbara is stating that God is in control not in the sense that He has put His enemies under Christs feet, but that everything exists at His will and if He so chooses can issue commands in answer to prayer in accordance to His will. You are stating you still see evil in the world so in that context God's will isn't being carried out on earth as it is in heaven. Hans has pointed out that day has been set, which is God's Will. So in that sense you state God isn't reigning and that point starts at this time (rev 11:17) It should also be noted when God pulled down rulers from their thrones the days of their reign came to a end and we know that hasn't happened to the living God. So I see both sides.

Anyway the title was "Spiritual realms resistence to prayer"

I believe God hears my prayers always instantly. Maybe before I even pray He knows? Daniels prayer was heard and a answer was sent immediately so I'm not sure what praying through means unless you keep repeating the same prayer thinking God can't hear what you are stating??

Randy

[Ian Gentles]

Oh God wins in end yes, but we fight principalities and powers of evil, in His service!

[Hans Deventer]

Ultimately, I believe that God, not evil is in charge. I can't fathom living in a world in which I believed that evil had the total upper hand.

With these qualifications, I agree.

Added: but then I read your reply on the Job quote and it seems we're on different pages after all.

I believe God is more powerful than evil. I also believe He isn't exercising that power most of the time, but eventually, will. I believe evil is and will be defeated, but isn't bound yet, only will be in the end. I believe way too much is happening on this earth that goes against the reign of God, and since He doesn't yet seem to do a lot about it, His reign today is fairly limited at best. I long for the day when there won't be anything happening on this world that is against the reign of God. That would be the only true reign, when God is "all in all". We aren't there yet.

[Barbara Moulton]

With these qualifications, I agree.

Added: but then I read your reply on the Job quote and it seems we're on different pages after all.

I believe God is more powerful than evil. I also believe He isn't exercising that power most of the time, but eventually, will. I believe evil is and will be defeated, but isn't bound yet, only will be in the end. I believe way too much is happening on this earth that goes against the reign of God, and since He doesn't yet seem to do a lot about it, His reign today is fairly limited at best. I long for the day when there won't be anything happening on this world that is against the reign of God. That would be the only true reign, when God is "all in all". We aren't there yet.

I am very uncomfortable with saying that God's reign is limited. Just because He doesn't do something about evil it does not mean that it is because He is held in check by evil or that it has power over Him.

But I think we are pretty close Hans. I think we both have many of the same ideas about how God works in the world. It's just the word "reign" that is tripping us up so we are really disagreeing on grammer, not theology.

Blessings,
Barbara

[Ian Gentles]

Gosh this thread makes you think!
Darkness reigned during the holocaust, yet God reigned...so why the holocaust? Its ok not expecting an answer, doubt anyone could answer. In end God is good!

[Hans Deventer]

I am very uncomfortable with saying that God's reign is limited. Just because He doesn't do something about evil it does not mean that it is because He is held in check by evil or that it has power over Him.

Well, if His reign isn't limited, I'd have to hold Him responsible for doing nothing about the evil in this world, like a good monarch would. And that is what I would be very uncomfortable with. He seems to have a reason for that, and thus, limit His reign till the Last Day.
For if this world shows the reign of God, I'm not so sure I'm looking forward to the day He will be all in all. I have to believe that in many, many things, the reign of God isn't visible, and actually, way too many things happen that are in total disagreement with God's reign. They are more like the devil reigning.
Hence we do not "struggle is against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.


Apparently, they rule. Until the day that there will be no more delay (Rev 10:6), we're a guerilla movement more than anything else.

There's a Bruce Cockburn (a fellow Canadian) song that depicts it well

Don't the hours grow shorter as the days go by
You never get to stop and open your eyes
One day you're waiting for the sky to fall
The next you're dazzled by the beauty of it all
When you're lovers in a dangerous time
Lovers in a dangerous time

These fragile bodies of touch and taste
This vibrant skin -- this hair like lace
Spirits open to the thrust of grace
Never a breath you can afford to waste
When you're lovers in a dangerous time
Lovers in a dangerous time

When you're lovers in a dangerous time
Sometimes you're made to feel as if your love's a crime --
But nothing worth having comes without some kind of fight --
Got to kick at the darkness 'til it bleeds daylight
When you're lovers in a dangerous time
Lovers in a dangerous time
And we're lovers in a dangerous time
Lovers in a dangerous time


But I think we are pretty close Hans. I think we both have many of the same ideas about how God works in the world. It's just the word "reign" that is tripping us up so we are really disagreeing on grammer, not theology.

I guess so. That's why I asked for a definition.

[Ian Gentles]

I must confess it does often seem like darkness reigns. I am not giving to much to darkness, just acknowledging its there and working in this world. Grace often seems to hold it back from its full potential, but its still there. So many broken hearts, so many oppressed and depressed, so much war, crime! Its is against such that we pray, we cry, we yearn for God's power to come. Saten would crush the church completely, destroy us, but it seems God does hold him back. One way we resist is in and through prayer. How it works i am not sure!

[Randy Wise]

I must confess it does often seem like darkness reigns. I am not giving to much to darkness, just acknowledging its there and working in this world. Grace often seems to hold it back from its full potential, but its still there.

I would rather state God reigns but many refuse to follow His ways and God has set a day when He will stand up to testify to the world and put His "enemies" under His feet. Where do all those weeds come? Jesus stated "an enemy of mine did this"

The Parable of the Weeds

24Jesus told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared. 27"The owner's servants came to him and said, 'Sir, didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?'
28" 'An enemy did this,' he replied.
"The servants asked him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?'
29" 'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.' "

[Barbara Moulton]

Satan would crush the church completely, destroy us, but it seems God does hold him back. !

Exactly. We look at the world and think how much evil is active but we have nothing to compare it to. Do you really want to imagine a world in which evil totally reigned?

If God wasn't ultimately reigning, I believe that evil would have destroyed the world (and of course the church) by now.

One way we resist is in and through prayer. How it works i am not sure!

I feel that one way resistance begins is by not giving the powers of evil a foothold. Which is one reason why I will always choose to focus on the power of God to deliver us and keep us. I don't want to spend too much time examining the powers of evil. I've stated that before...why should I give them so much attention. (Which is one reason why I disliked the Peretti books personally. They seemed to create an unhealthy interest and speculation in how Satan and demons work.

I would rather be in an offensive than defensive mode. The defensive mode spends a great deal of time looking at the power of evil and satan and thinking of ways to withstand attacks. Important yes. But in my own life, I find that simply moving out each day of my life in the power of Jesus Christ is the better way to overcome evil. I am not cowering in a bunker defending myself. I am moving forward with the sword of the spirit.

[Ian Gentles]

When we folks actually open up to each other in mission its actually amazing how many are having a hard time, struggling in some way. I also note many dont last many years in our ministry, it takes its toll. Sadly we dont seem to see many victories, only set backs! :(

[Charlotte Mercer]

Sadly we dont seem to see many victories, only set backs! :(

"Seek and you will find."

I agree that a lot of times things don't go the way we'd like, but if we're going to be representatives of Christ, we have to trust that God is still God. The disciples certainly didn't get what they wanted when Jesus went to the cross. I imagine they saw that as a pretty huge setback until He rose again.

[Barbara Moulton]

"Seek and you will find."

I agree that a lot of times things don't go the way we'd like, but if we're going to be representatives of Christ, we have to trust that God is still God. The disciples certainly didn't get what they wanted when Jesus went to the cross. I imagine they saw that as a pretty huge setback until He rose again.

Blessings on you Charlotte. What a joy it is to see you posting.

Amen. God is still God.

[Gina Stevenson]

I am very uncomfortable with saying that God's reign is limited. Just because He doesn't do something about evil it does not mean that it is because He is held in check by evil or that it has power over Him.

But I think we are pretty close Hans. I think we both have many of the same ideas about how God works in the world. It's just the word "reign" that is tripping us up so we are really disagreeing on grammer, not theology.

Blessings,
Barbara

That would be so [uncomfortable], were it limited by anyone/anything other than Himself. We surely don't understand why some horrific things happen because He's letting "free will" run its course until He says, "No more!" yet, this does not reduce His power ... other than that reduction He imposes upon Himself until ................

[Ian Gentles]

"Seek and you will find."

I agree that a lot of times things don't go the way we'd like, but if we're going to be representatives of Christ, we have to trust that God is still God. The disciples certainly didn't get what they wanted when Jesus went to the cross. I imagine they saw that as a pretty huge setback until He rose again.

Oh i agree, our expectations of ministry are often our own and not God's reality/plan! Hence we can feel defeated, just because own dream isn't fulfilled!

[Barbara Moulton]

Oh i agree, our expectations of ministry are often our own and not God's reality/plan! Hence we can feel defeated, just because own dream isn't fulfilled!

Exactly. If you had asked Carl and me, when we were first starting out in ministry, where we thought we would find ourselves by the time we reached this stage of lives, we would not have described what we have now.

But a few years ago I looked around at my life, what we have as a "combined package" in our ministry in the church, community and hospital and said, "Hey...this is pretty good!"

I still have faith that God has something extraordinary planned for this church. Because He has brought us through a crisis and supplied for our financial needs in ways that I can't explain. I feel like His hand is upon us and so I am not defeated, even though we are still a very small church.

[Anne and Dwayne Hood]

Everyone does not live a life of setbacks. We may have some heartaches, an occasional set back, etc. but what happens in our life is either allowed or orchestrated by God. Our lack of faith could work against us, also.

Dwayne and I know we are two of God's pets. Dwayne's mother sits in a wheel chair, or lays on a bed in the nursing home, with only one leg, and feels that she is God's pet.
She has had heart surgery, diabetis, and will be 92 years old in March, and married 73 years in April, and has lost her oldest and youngest child. But, she thinks she is God's pet, and says so.
She called when she was ninety, from the nursing home, and told Dwayne, that she had discovered her calling-to witness to the people there.

As your faith is, so be it unto you--but it may not be exactly what we ask for. He says He will give us the desires of our hearts, but, He may change what our desires are.

Dwayne's dad will be 90 in May, and his mother is all excited about a party being planned for his 90th birthday. Before their 70th wedding anniversary, she just felt that if God would permit them to make it to that celebration, He could do whatever He wanted to with her.

She has a sister that turned 100 this month, and accepts change and loves life. Maybe their old feet washing father and grandfather taught that attitude to them, by example.
She has been a COTN minister's wife most of her life, and three sons and one son in law are ordained. One son is a lay speaker. Their atitudes were learned and inherited from their parents and their Godliness and teachings.

One of our sons was born on Christmas day, and died. But, that does not make us not a God's pet. His son died, also. We may end up grieving, at times, but He helps us rise again, and, in the valley, He strenghthens and restores our souls.

Our children have a great heritage.
Reach out and touch Him, Ian, and look up in Faith, believing. HE IS ABLE!