So...what does this mean?

[Jeff Scott]

I need help in understanding what Paul meant when he said in 1 Corinthians:

"Do not be deceived: 'Bad company corrupts good character.'" (1 Cor. 15:33 NRSV)

I think it is always dangerous to separate from the context in which it is origionally presented, so I went to the text and read all of chapter 15. It didn't really help that much. So I'll ask you...how should we understand this verse? Also, why are there quotes within the verse? There was no reference to any other portion of scripture in my Bible.

[Doug Kitchen]

I need help in understanding what Paul meant when he said in 1 Corinthians:

"Do not be deceived: 'Bad company corrupts good character.'" (1 Cor. 15:33 NRSV)

I think it is always dangerous to separate from the context in which it is origionally presented, so I went to the text and read all of chapter 15. It didn't really help that much. So I'll ask you...how should we understand this verse? Also, why are there quotes within the verse? There was no reference to any other portion of scripture in my Bible.

Jeff,
Is the quote a Greek expression of the day - like eat, drink and be merry in one of the preceding verses?

It does appear to be out of context.

Doug

[Brad Mercer]

I don't know if this helps or not, but here's what some of my "Bible Explorer 3" Bible software resources say about it:


The Corinthian believers were being deceived by those who questioned the Resurrection. They were listening to those who had plenty to say but no knowledge of God. Paul is saying that if they get the wrong information, they will act wrong. He admonishes them to stop sinning -- because there will be a resurrection.
—J. Vernon McGee's Thru The Bible

evil communications corrupt good manners -- a current saying, forming a verse in MENANDER, the comic poet, who probably took it from Euripides [SOCRATES, Ecclesiastical History, 3.16 (http://www.crossbooks.com/book.asp?Ref=1Co+3%3A16)]. "Evil communications" refer to intercourse with those who deny the resurrection. Their notion seems to have been that the resurrection is merely spiritual, that sin has its seat solely in the body, and will be left behind when the soul leaves it, if, indeed, the soul survive death at all.

good -- not only good-natured, but pliant. Intimacy with the profligate society around was apt to corrupt the principles of the Corinthians.
—Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary

Be not deceived - By such pernicious counsels as this.

Evil communications corrupt good manners - He opposes to the Epicurean saying,

a well - known verse of the poet Menander.

Evil communications - Discourse contrary to faith, hope, or love, naturally tends to destroy all holiness.
—Wesley's Commentary

Communications ( oJmili>ai ). Wrong. Lit., companionships. Rev., company.

Manners ( h]qh ). Only here in the New Testament. Originally h+qov means an accustomed seat or haunt; thence custom, usage; plural, manners, morals, character. The passage, "Evil company doth corrupt good manners," is an iambic line; either the repetition of a current proverb, or a citation of the same proverb from the poet Menander. Compare Aeschylus: "Alas for the ill-luck in mortals that brings this honest man into company with those who have less regard for religion. In every matter, indeed, nothing is worse than evil-fellowship" ( oJmili>av ) (" Seven against Thebes," 593-595).
—Vincent's Word Studies in the New Testament

Be not deceived (mê planâsthe). Do not be led astray (planaô) by such a false philosophy of life. Evil company (homiliai kakai). Evil companionships. Old word, homilia, from homilos (a crowd, gang, bunch). Only here in N.T. Good manners (êthê). Old word (kin to ethos) custom, usage, morals. Good morals here. This line of poetry (iambic) occurs in Menander. It may be a current proverb. Paul could have gotten it from either source.
—Word Pictures in the New Testament

[Joel Merrill]

I need help in understanding what Paul meant when he said in 1 Corinthians:

"Do not be deceived: 'Bad company corrupts good character.'" (1 Cor. 15:33 NRSV)

I think it is always dangerous to separate from the context in which it is originally presented, so I went to the text and read all of chapter 15. It didn't really help that much. So I'll ask you...how should we understand this verse? Also, why are there quotes within the verse? There was no reference to any other portion of scripture in my Bible.
I used to quote that verse a lot back when my daughter, LeAnne, was running wild before she got saved. I've also had to apply it to my own life sometimes. We all have non-Christian friends and even some friends who are a quite wicked. There is nothing wrong with that. But we need to be careful who we pick for our inner circle of friends. Bad attitudes, habits, language and impure thoughts can rub off if we are exposed to them too much. This is more of a problem with young people and some personality types.

I'm not going to go into LeAnne's history but she was very wild before she became a Christian. She picked the worst kind of friends and they always drug her down. This even applies to Christians being unequally yoked in marriage.

I have a lot of friends at work. I will be friends with anyone no matter how wicked they are. I've had wonderful opportunities to witness to people who would never go to church. But I have to be careful how much I hang around them. Some people are just naturally negative and they are always complaining and bad mouthing people. If I am around them too much, I catch myself thinking negative. I know other people who are always angry about something or always talking filth. I am happy to be their friends but I limit my time with them unless the Lord leads otherwise.

I have also known people in the church who are always gossiping, complaining and bad mouthing people. I try to be positive around them but if they insist on gossiping it is time for me to move on.

Joel

[Marsha Lynn]

Good points, Joel. I've made a concerted effort to overcome the tendency to be negative about the negative people around me. It's always easiest to win that battle when I'm not spending a lot of time around those negative people.

I think one of the most difficult tasks of a Christian, one which we can accomplish only by the grace of God, is to overcome the natural law of just desserts -- you reap what you sow, you are judged as you judge. Not only does that mean people reflect back to us what we show them, but we are also ourselves strongly compelled to reflect back to people what we see in them, to "give them a taste of their own medicine". Jesus taught his followers to break that pattern. It's a huge challenge to do so. Exposing ourselves to people who are exhibiting attitudes and behaviors that we don't want reflected in our own lives requires extra grace and power.

Marsha

[Doug Kitchen]

I need help in understanding what Paul meant when he said in 1 Corinthians:

"Do not be deceived: 'Bad company corrupts good character.'" (1 Cor. 15:33 NRSV)

I think it is always dangerous to separate from the context in which it is origionally presented, so I went to the text and read all of chapter 15. It didn't really help that much. So I'll ask you...how should we understand this verse? Also, why are there quotes within the verse? There was no reference to any other portion of scripture in my Bible.

This new software is nice because it keeps the threads around longer... So now I get a second chance.

From Brad's post, I see the 'bad company...' part as a common Greek proverb. Paul used stoic expressions (eat drink and be merry) to show that some of what the Greeks taught was ok, but some was not. In this particular verse, he is using a quote that they would easily understand to refute the stoic philosophy of v.32 (and is showing his knowledge of Greek culture). I think the two verses (32 and 33) make more sense if you read them together.

He was warning the corinthians to transform their culture, not just absorb it. In some ways, the corinthian church was already worse than their culture. Part of it was that they were bad theology students and were listening to bad communication about the life, death and resurrection of Christ. Paul is commanding them to listen to him and his life's testimony and not to heretical teachers. He was not afraid to argue and even used the common language and ideas of that culture.

Joel's example is a pretty good modern day application of this verse which is consistent with the tone of the whole book - we have to be careful who we listen to, and often we need to be part of their transformation rather than allowing ourselves to be corrupted by their ideas and speech.

I've enjoyed having the time to read all the responses before the thread drops off the board.

Doug

So what about v. 29, "else what shall they do which are baptised for the dead?..."

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

I think Brad's word study is the right approach.

Paul's readers have associates who doubt the resurrection of Christ. He first responds with reason, describing the dire consequences of there being no resurrection. He then positively proclaims the fact of the resurrection.

He also appeals to Scripture, describing the absolute authority of Christ over death -- in fact, that all things are under his feet.

Paul says he believes in the resurrection to the point that he is willing to put his life in danger to proclaim this truth.

It is then that he quotes a popular saying of that day -- that "Bad company corrupts good character."

Due to the fact that his readers are allowing themselves to be influenced by associates to begin to doubt this central truth of Christianity they need to be aware that even the common culture recognizes the danger of associating oneself too much with the wrong people and their take on important matters.

How's that?

[Billy Cox]

The Greeks who lived by the 'eat drink and be merry' philosophy were the Epicureans, not the Stoics.

Stoics were more likely to sit around in despair at the miserable plight of their life.

[Wilson L. Deaton]

"Get close, but not to close."

The idea is that we have to associate with the world to win the world. However, the "but" comes in because this passage is true. Bad company corrupts good character.

The key is understanding the strength of you character.

If you are stable, etc. and will have more influence on your friends then they on you, try to win them. If you struggling and tend to follow and your friends are likely to have more influence on you than you on them, walk away.

In other words, get close enough to influence but not so close as to be influenced!

Wilson

[Jeff Scott]

This helps. One of the things I like about NN is that people will do some research for me!

I found all of your input helpful, though I was unaware that Han Solo was part of NN!

At this point in my life, I am particularly sensitive to avoiding the world just because it is sinful. I think that often verses such as the one we have been discussing here are understood by people attending holiness churches like ours to mean don't hang out with sinners at all! However, we cannot leave out the historical context of what Paul was addressing. To do so can result in an incorrect understanding of how Christians are supposed to act.

Let me ask a question. Do you think that new Christians should withdraw from some of their "old" friends for a period of time so that they can learn how to live a Christian life, re-immersing themself with sinners once they have developed strong, Christian habits? Responding to Christ is one thing, walking with him is quite another. Perhaps it is not until a Christian has developed a healthy lifestyle based on scripture that they can re-immerse themselves into the secular world as Jesus did.

[Doug Kitchen]

Thanks for the correction - I should have put more question marks in - this whole thread is dredging up 25-30 year old memories of teen quizzing and Biblical history and literature (or maybe it was great philosophical and religious ideas) at ENC. I got pretty good grades on this stuff back then but now all the details are fading pretty fast....

Doug

[Wilson L. Deaton]

Let me ask a question. Do you think that new Christians should withdraw from some of their "old" friends for a period of time so that they can learn how to live a Christian life, re-immersing themself with sinners once they have developed strong, Christian habits? Responding to Christ is one thing, walking with him is quite another. Perhaps it is not until a Christian has developed a healthy lifestyle based on scripture that they can re-immerse themselves into the secular world as Jesus did.

The word "withdraw" migtht be too strong but in principle I think you are correct. Be very careful of the environment! For example, go to the ball game with them but not to the bar. If they are going to a movie, make sure it's not a detrimental movie before you agree to go. Try adding one or more new Christian friends to your old group! Once again, I say, the key is knowing who is influencing whom?

Wilson

[Jeff Scott]

Wilson,

Are you sure about the bar? Can't a Christian be a Christian in the bar? If the bar includes a strip club, then I am in agreement. Some people feel more comfortable in a bar and it may be an environment more conducive for meaningful talk. Some Christians might be able to use those circumstances. I would say, however, that if the "guys" are heading out for a planned night of debauchery, it is probably a good idea to give them a warm goodbye. Good judgement may be the most important part of deciding whether to go or not. Particularly if the Christian is an alcoholic.

[Jeremy D. Scott]

I agree. I've not graced them with my presence too much in my life thus far, but bars are a great place for conversation. Our abstention from alcohol need not translate into an abstention from everything alcohol-related. Otherwise, we all need to throw out our televisions, magazines, and shop at non-alcohol selling establishments only. I realize that some actually do this.

Rather, this is yet another "in the, but not of the" situation/discussion.

Jeff's point about knowing oneself and one's own limits is very important. An alcoholic should not try to minister in a bar. So I guess to answer one of your questions, Jeff, yes, spiritual maturity should have a lot to do with it.

And comparing a bar to the ball game...MAN, I'd feel safer taking my son to the nearest bar than the bleachers at Fenway Park! (or Wrigley, or NY Stadium, etc.)

[Dave McClung]

Jeremy said, " Our abstention from alcohol need not translate into an abstention from everything alcohol-related. "

When I was in the military, I was popular because I was always the "designated driver." I have spent many, many hours with people who are drinking. I have observed that when I hang around with people who are drinking, it causes me to have a negative attitude about them. Alcohol turns bright, intelligent people into absolute bores. I do not enjoy the company of people who are drinking. I have found it best to simply excuse myself when my associates start drinking.

Yes, I know, hypothetically, that a person can have a drink or two without getting drunk. I can tell you from personal oberservation that very few drinkers stop drinking when they should. Yes, people get drunk on wine, too!!

The best practice is simply to avoid circumstances where people are drinking if you can.

[Hans Deventer]

Dave, I agree about the army. Most of what I saw there is people drinking in order to get drunk, which is not a pretty sight. Never forget how in the middle of one night, I had to go and look for a broom and a bucket etc in order to clean up for a room mate who had thrown up after too many "Jaegermeister's".

But the army is/was notorious for this kind of behaviour. As is the case with youth many times.

But later on in my life, I have also seen that most of the time, it is a choice. And many indeed stick to a few glasses of wine or beer and are good company when you're out in some hotel for a seminar or a course and having dinner. If not, I leave for my room right away.

[Jeremy D. Scott]

I have spent many, many hours with people who are drinking. I have observed that when I hang around with people who are drinking, it causes me to have a negative attitude about them.
What causes you to have the negative attitude towards them? Is it because they're mean to you? Or is it because you grew up with the teaching that "alcohol is bad" (as I did)?

I do not enjoy the company of people who are drinking. I have found it best to simply excuse myself when my associates start drinking.
I have often done this as well. Like I said, I haven't been in too many bars (especially lately). However, I too have been in countless situations (like you seem to be describing) where people are drinking for the sake of drinking. Like Jeff said, these are situations of "a planned night of debauchery" - probably situations from which to abstain.

But the bar is one of today's equivolents with the "front porch" of yesterday or the "town meeting hall" or "town common" or the "tax collector's house" or any other place in the past where people go to talk or to know that they will "fit it." The Cheers theme song that sings "...where everybody knows your name" paints a good picture. A bar is not just a place where people go to get drunk. That occurrence certainly happens and often, but it's a whole lot more than that. We could learn a lot about society by learning the culture of a bar and how, as followers of Christ, we should respond.

[Jeff Scott]

Anybody heard Toby Keith's song, I Love This Bar? I have often thought that some of the lyrics would be good for a church knee-deep in people that need the Lord. Obviously there are a couple of lines that wouldn't fit, but shouldn't people feel as good about their church as the song-writer does about this bar?

Here are the lyrics:

"I Love This Bar"

We got winners, we got losers
Chain smokers and boozers
And we got yuppies, we got bikers
We got thirsty hitchhikers
And the girls next door dress up like movie stars

Hmm, hmm, hmm I love this bar

We got cowboys, we got truckers
Broken-hearted fools and suckers
And we got hustlers, we got fighters
Early birds and all-nighters
And the veterans talk about their battle scars

Hmm, hmm, hmm I love this bar

[Chorus:]
I love this bar
It's my kind of place
Just walkin' through the front door
Puts a big smile on my face
It ain't too far, come as you are
Hmm, hmm, hmm I love this bar

I've seen short skirts, we got high-techs
Blue-collar boys and rednecks
And we got lovers, lots of lookers
And I've even seen dancing girls and hookers
And we like to drink our beer from a mason jar

Hmm, hmm, hmm I love this bar
Yes I do

I like my truck (I like my truck)
I like my girlfriend (I like my girlfriend)
I like to take her out to dinner
I like a movie now and then

But I love this bar
It's my kind of place
Just trollin' around the dance floor
Puts a big smile on my face
No cover charge, come as you are
Hmm, hmm, hmm I love this bar
Hmm, hmm, hmm I love this bar

We got divorcees and a big bouncer man
An old jukebox and a real bad band
We got waitresses and we got barflies
A dumb-:eek: and a wise-guy
If you get too drunk just sleep out in your car

Reason number 672 why

Hmm, hmm, hmm I love this bar
Play it on out boys
Beer-thirty's over
Got to take it on home

Hmm, hmm, hmm I love this bar
I just love it

[Wilson L. Deaton]

Wilson,

Are you sure about the bar? Can't a Christian be a Christian in the bar?

I was thinking in terms of a new Christian who was accustomed to regularly drinking with their friends. The temptation might be too great.

Of course, in other circumstances a Christian can certainly go to a bar. I have never drank in my life and it stopped being a temptation years ago. (Still tempted in other areas but not drinking.) Going to a bar wouldn't bother me in the least.

Wilson

[Jeff Scott]

In that case Wilson, Cheers is only a couple of doors down from my office! See you there at 11PM!:p