Does your church intentionally minister to the wealthy?

[Dave McClung]

In January, I have been asked to speak at a gathering of pastors. The topic will be something like, "How to minister to the wealthy." In my 64 years of being in the church of the Nazarene, I am aware of only one church that intentionally set out to minister to the wealthy. Wealthy individuals came in significant numbers and a lot of people who were not wealthy came too.

My question is, has your church intentionally set out to minister to the wealthy? If so, what specific things do you do? If not, why not?

[Steve Walsh]

No our church does not. We are just about to work out how to transform our church into a Good Samaritan compassionate ministries centre to more intentionally reach the disadvantaged of our society.

However, I believe the assumption behind your question is right. We ought to be intentional about reaching ALL segments of society - including the wealthy. To refuse to do so would be to be as guilty as those who neglect the impoverished.

How did that one church minister to the wealthy? What did they do differently and effectively to reach them?

Scientology has their celebrity centres. I think this would be "crossing a line" to have a VIP section for the wealthy. Wesley certainly advocated a preferential option for the poor, as did Bresee & Widney (yet a high percentage of their initial core group were well-to-do).

Ministry to the wealthy could be especially cost-effective and effective ministry would result in additional funds for ministry to the marginalised. However, effective ministry to anyone would not see them as a means to an end.

[Dave McClung]

No our church does not. We are just about to work out how to transform our church into a Good Samaritan compassionate ministries centre to more intentionally reach the disadvantaged of our society.

However, I believe the assumption behind your question is right. We ought to be intentional about reaching ALL segments of society - including the wealthy. To refuse to do so would be to be as guilty as those who neglect the impoverished.

How did that one church minister to the wealthy? What did they do differently and effectively to reach them?

Scientology has their celebrity centres. I think this would be "crossing a line" to have a VIP section for the wealthy. Wesley certainly advocated a preferential option for the poor, as did Bresee & Widney (yet a high percentage of their initial core group were well-to-do).

Ministry to the wealthy could be especially cost-effective and effective ministry would result in additional funds for ministry to the marginalised. However, effective ministry to anyone would not see them as a means to an end.

Steve, I am going to hold off identifying the one church I have in mind until some others have responded.

It seems to me that a church that intentionally ministers to wealthy individuals could also more effectively minister to the poor. What do the wealthy need most? If I understand the Bible correctly the number one need of wealthy individuals is to learn to be generous. Wouldn't a church filled with wealthy individuals who clearly see their obligation to be generous be a more balanced approach than a church full of poor people trying to help other poor people?

Every year I get multiple requests from churches who see thier role as raising money from wealthy people outside of the church to give to poor people who are also outside the church. Wouldn't it be a more balanced ministry if churches reached out to both the wealthy and the poor as members of their congregation?

[David Showalter]

Bro. Dave,

I fear that many pastors are a bit intimidated by the wealthy and do not really know how to relate to them. (this would probably be true of many layman as well) I don't believe we think there is anything unchristian about being rich however scriptures like Jesus sharing how difficult it is for the rich to enter the Kingdom causes us to view the wealthy in an unhealthy way sometimes. I am 3rd generation Nazarene and have been pastoring for 25 years. Most of the churches I am familiar with would probably not appeal to the most wealthy of our land. Starting with the parking lot, the facilities, and then the lack of emphasis on excellence, etc. would probably cause them to journey on down the road to something that better resembles their normal life style.

I pastored a white collar church some years back. Our building was located downtown and the vast majority of our folks had moved out to the suburbs. Our parking lot was filled with extremely nice expensive cars that very few middle income folks can or should drive. We were surrounded by lower income neighborhoods. We seemed to be very ineffective reaching these lower income folks even though I believe we really tried. We were open to the poor, and lower middle income folks, but they didn't seem to be open to us. One day as I was dealing with a family in the neighborhood that I had helped on several occassions, I asked them why they didn't come some Sunday for Sunday School or Church, they looked me right in the eye and said, "Preacher these are the best clothes we have". I immediately let them know they would be more than welcome in the clothes they were wearing. They then asked, "And how many of your people will be dressed like this?" And thus I discovered that the lower income folks probably have as difficult time relating or feeling comfortable with the rich, as the rich does with them.

Eventually we had to begin patrolling our parking lots as we were constantly having the car emblems ripped off the hoods. Before I left that assignment we relocated. I guess I say all of this to simply relay that I do not know how to effectively minister to multi culture, and different eco-social levels of our society. I do not think we are, or I am or have been very effective, and I am not for sure it actually happens that often.

Dave, what do you believe are steps the average Nazarene Pastor and Church could take to reach out to the wealthy?

[Dave McClung]

Bro. Dave,

I fear that many pastors are a bit intimidated by the wealthy and do not really know how to relate to them. (this would probably be true of many layman as well) I don't believe we think there is anything unchristian about being rich however scriptures like Jesus sharing how difficult it is for the rich to enter the Kingdom causes us to view the wealthy in an unhealthy way sometimes. I am 3rd generation Nazarene and have been pastoring for 25 years. Most of the churches I am familiar with would probably not appeal to the most wealthy of our land. Starting with the parking lot, the facilities, and then the lack of emphasis on excellence, etc. would probably cause them to journey on down the road to something that better resembles their normal life style.

I pastored a white collar church some years back. Our building was located downtown and the vast majority of our folks had moved out to the suburbs. Our parking lot was filled with extremely nice expensive cars that very few middle income folks can or should drive. We were surrounded by lower income neighborhoods. We seemed to be very ineffective reaching these lower income folks even though I believe we really tried. We were open to the poor, and lower middle income folks, but they didn't seem to be open to us. One day as I was dealing with a family in the neighborhood that I had helped on several occassions, I asked them why they didn't come some Sunday for Sunday School or Church, they looked me right in the eye and said, "Preacher these are the best clothes we have". I immediately let them know they would be more than welcome in the clothes they were wearing. They then asked, "And how many of your people will be dressed like this?" And thus I discovered that the lower income folks probably have as difficult time relating or feeling comfortable with the rich, as the rich does with them.

Eventually we had to begin patrolling our parking lots as we were constantly having the car emblems ripped off the hoods. Before I left that assignment we relocated. I guess I say all of this to simply relay that I do not know how to effectively minister to multi culture, and different eco-social levels of our society. I do not think we are, or I am or have been very effective, and I am not for sure it actually happens that often.

Dave, what do you believe are steps the average Nazarene Pastor and Church could take to reach out to the wealthy?

David, Thanks for your response. It reminded me of a real life experience. A few years ago, Linda and I moved to a new area. We looked up the closest Nazarene Church and took our entire family (2 adults and 4 children). Without a doubt we could have had a positive impact on that church. Our family was about 25% of the people in attendance that night. We filled out a visitor card.

That week, the pastor came to visit us in our home. He said that he was glad that we had visited, but concluded the visit with "You won't fit in our church. I hope you find a church where you will be comfortable."

In response to your request about what I think a church should do, I am going to hold off until my outline has firmed up a bit. I do have some specific issues to discuss and will share my ideas.

[Jim Franklin]

Rev. Showalter, your discription of the fine cars in your church's parking lot reminded me that when I was in college at NNC there was in Nampa a Showalter Auto Agency.

[David Showalter]

Dave shared,

That week, the pastor came to visit us in our home. He said that he was glad that we had visited, but concluded the visit with "You won't fit in our church. I hope you find a church where you will be comfortable."

David asks,

Did you take that statement to indicate that it was not a matter of you and your family not being comfortable, but that he was indeed uncomfortable with you? If so, I realize you had absolutely no responsibility or obligation to ask him, still I wish you had invited him to explain why it was that you wouldn't fit in. Maybe he was merely convinced that you guys wouldn't stick around and so he beat you to the punch. Fear of failure/rejection/ etc?????? who knows.

[David Showalter]

Jim shares,

there was in Nampa a Showalter Auto Agency.


David replies,

no relation that I know of, not close anyway. Supposedly, only two Showalters ever entered the country, they were brothers, if that is true obviously we're all connected. Hope the folks in Nampa were kind and nice and thus upheld our "good" name. ha!

[Dave McClung]

Dave shared,

That week, the pastor came to visit us in our home. He said that he was glad that we had visited, but concluded the visit with "You won't fit in our church. I hope you find a church where you will be comfortable."

David asks,

Did you take that statement to indicate that it was not a matter of you and your family not being comfortable, but that he was indeed uncomfortable with you? If so, I realize you had absolutely no responsibility or obligation to ask him, still I wish you had invited him to explain why it was that you wouldn't fit in. Maybe he was merely convinced that you guys wouldn't stick around and so he beat you to the punch. Fear of failure/rejection/ etc?????? who knows.

The pastor did explain. Prior to making the statment, he had just said that ours was the grandest home that he had ever seen. After he said that we wouldn't "fit in" he said, "We don't have anyone in the church who has money." If he had only known, at the time, his net worth was probably more than mine.

[Greg Farra]

We could use a few wealthy people to minister to. Could someone send me their names and phone numbers? :basic05

We are situated by one of the largest churches in Ohio. People have actually come in and asked if we were the daycare center!

[Greg Gates]

We are situated by one of the largest churches in Ohio. People have actually come in and asked if we were the daycare center!

That is one of the funniest things I have ever read on Naznet. Thanks!

I can relate to being a small fish in a small pond with the big fish looking for you.

[Greg Gates]

My question is, has your church intentionally set out to minister to the wealthy? If so, what specific things do you do? If not, why not?

Thanks for an interesting question.

I have always wanted wealthy people to become members of my church and have violated James 2:3 many many times. So in a very real sense I do intentionally reach out (usually unsuccessfully) to rich people.


Since most rich people own stocks I use current business stories as illustrations in my sermons
I push foreign mission trips since many of them like unique travel experiences
I try to hook them up with the few other rich people in our congregation and try to sneak in a way of giving them the impression that they are not the wealthiest couple in the church (I only have to lie that way once per church)
I review a book I have about good manners before dining with them
I pull out cash and offer to pay for the dinner even though I've never had to pay
I try to learn everything I can about their industry so that I can ask intelligent questions
I try to use good grammar in my preaching (wife helps with that)
In my preaching I frequently bring up the fact that God wants you to be a productive person
I let them designate their giving as much as they want to (they like that)
I talk a lot about our church's accomplishments and goals with them
And I ask them for a lot of advice both personally and professionally.

Beyond that I care for their spiritual needs and show an interest in their family members... but I do that for everyone.

But my best advice in keeping a rich person around is to keep them a secret from our denominational and university leaders. I learned that lesson the hard way!!!!!!!!!

[Dave McClung]

We could use a few wealthy people to minister to. Could someone send me their names and phone numbers? :basic05

We are situated by one of the largest churches in Ohio. People have actually come in and asked if we were the daycare center!

Greg

Many of them are the children and granchildren of your church members. One of the great ironies of the Church of the Nazarene is our early leaders put a lot of emphasis on:

Working Hard
Getting a Good Education
Pinching Pennys

Those are the things that cause people to become wealthy. Unfortunately, when Nazarenes have done what was taught, many times they are no longer welcome in Nazarene churches. I can give you a long list of my contemporaries who grew up Nazarene, went to Nazarene schools, became successful and were basically run off from their Nazarene churches.

[Dave McClung]

Thanks for an interesting question.

I have always wanted wealthy people to become members of my church and have violated James 2:3 many many times. So in a very real sense I do intentionally reach out (usually unsuccessfully) to rich people.

Since most rich people own stocks I use current business stories as illustrations in my sermons
I push foreign mission trips since many of them like unique travel experiences
I try to hook them up with the few other rich people in our congregation and try to sneak in a way of giving them the impression that they are not the wealthiest couple in the church (I only have to lie that way once per church)
I review a book I have about good manners before dining with them
I pull out cash and offer to pay for the dinner even though I've never had to pay
I try to learn everything I can about their industry so that I can ask intelligent questions
I try to use good grammar in my preaching (wife helps with that)
In my preaching I frequently bring up the fact that God wants you to be a productive person
I let them designate their giving as much as they want to (they like that)
I talk a lot about our church's accomplishments and goals with them
And I ask them for a lot of advice both personally and professionally.Beyond that I care for their spiritual needs and show an interest in their family members... but I do that for everyone.

But my best advice in keeping a rich person around is to keep them a secret from our denominational and university leaders. I learned that lesson the hard way!!!!!!!!!

Greg, thanks for the list. It deserves more of a response than I can give right now, but I will get back to you. And, I am glad I don't know any "university" leaders. I was a "college" leader.

[Billy Cox]

I am not a pastor and I am not what most people would call 'rich', so my suggestions are based on observation of various pastors' approach to people who are 'financially independent'.

-- Be responsible in interpreting Scriptures that deal with 'the rich'. We are careful to draw out (exegete) the meaning of most verses, yet we are quick to take at face value scriptures that are commonly used to beat up on people whose net worth is greater than our own (the definition of 'rich').

-- Recognize that pastors actually have more in common with financially independent people than they do with people who punch a clock.

-- Financially independent people develop the survival skill for distinguishing between a true friend and those who merely see them as an ATM machine.

-- Financially independent people did not get where they are by throwing money down rabbit holes; they value transparency and responsible fiscal management.

[Dave McClung]

Thanks for an interesting question.

I have always wanted wealthy people to become members of my church and have violated James 2:3 many many times. So in a very real sense I do intentionally reach out (usually unsuccessfully) to rich people.

Since most rich people own stocks I use current business stories as illustrations in my sermons
I push foreign mission trips since many of them like unique travel experiences
I try to hook them up with the few other rich people in our congregation and try to sneak in a way of giving them the impression that they are not the wealthiest couple in the church (I only have to lie that way once per church)
I review a book I have about good manners before dining with them
I pull out cash and offer to pay for the dinner even though I've never had to pay
I try to learn everything I can about their industry so that I can ask intelligent questions
I try to use good grammar in my preaching (wife helps with that)
In my preaching I frequently bring up the fact that God wants you to be a productive person
I let them designate their giving as much as they want to (they like that)
I talk a lot about our church's accomplishments and goals with them
And I ask them for a lot of advice both personally and professionally.Beyond that I care for their spiritual needs and show an interest in their family members... but I do that for everyone.

But my best advice in keeping a rich person around is to keep them a secret from our denominational and university leaders. I learned that lesson the hard way!!!!!!!!!

Greg, I really appreciate the thought you put into your response. I certainly believe you are on the right track. There are a few issues you didn't mention:

Time -- It has been my personal experience that Nazarene pastors don't respect the value of my time. When I am working, people pay me $500 per hour for my time. When I show up for a meeting that was announced for 6 p.m. and it doesn't start until 6:30, that is just like burning 250 $10 bills. Those who are wealthy place a higher than normal importance on meetings starting at the time they are announced and ending at the designated time.

Teach true humility -- The greatest barrier to rich people entering heaven is pride. When you violate James 2:3 by favoring the wealthy over the poor you do an injustice to both. I was once at a dinner meeting with a group of people that I considered my peers. The chairman pointed me out and introduced me as a "person of wealth and influence." I resigned from the group, because I was unwilling to participate at a different level than the rest.

Lessons of true humility are best learned during times when money won't fix what is wrong. Some of the greatest opportunities for a pastor to minister to wealthy individuals are when they are vulnerable -- illness, family difficulties, personal disappointment, etc. When a wealthy person has an out of control teen in trouble, it is easy to teach him what the scripture means when it says, "lean not on your own understanding."

Teach Generosity -- I have observed that many pastors are hesitant to ask the wealthy to be generous. A wealthy person who isn't generous won't make it to heaven. If a pastor doesn't preach about generosity, how is a wealthy person supposed to learn it?

Help with their children -- Active programs for children and youth attract wealthy adults. The very first thing a church that wants to minister to wealthy adults should do is invest in programs for children and youth.

More later.

[Hans Deventer]

The pastor did explain. Prior to making the statment, he had just said that ours was the grandest home that he had ever seen. After he said that we wouldn't "fit in" he said, "We don't have anyone in the church who has money." If he had only known, at the time, his net worth was probably more than mine.

And even if not, I think it's a strange argument. First, I'd say, let the visitors decide if they fit in. Secondly, some have a little money and are arrogant about it, others have bunches but never make it an issue. If one values people for who they are (as I've always seen you do), I don't see much of problem.

[DA Weaver]

Dave,

I'm trying to figure out a way of wording this so it doesn't sound so.... mean / hateful, but I don't know that it's possible. I know of a church that doesn't INTENTIONALLY minister to the wealthy, but what would one call it if a church was resistant to reaching out to the poor / needy / under privileged?

I.E. A church I know of recently had this happen... Christmas Parade = COLD outside with LOTS of people passing through the neighborhood to get to the parade. Instead of opening the doors and offering hot chocolate, cookies, "facilities", and some place to warm up, the Adult S.S. Director suggested offering hot chocolate OUTSIDE the church because "We don't want THEM in the church." Now, although the statement was general, and didn't include or exclude any certain financial status, because the church is located in the middle of a low income neighborhood, does that mean they're "intentionally" ministering to the wealthy? I don't think so.

[Hans Deventer]

Denise,

Help me understand. What does a post about a certain church that neglects its mission to the poor have to do with virtually no churches having a ministry towards the rich? I'm probably missing something.

[DA Weaver]

Denise,

Help me understand. What does a post about a certain church that neglects its mission to the poor have to do with virtually no churches having a ministry towards the rich? I'm probably missing something.

I didn't mean that no churches had a ministry toward the rich. I meant that because a certain church neglected its' mission to the poor didn't necessarily mean that same church was ministering to the wealthy. :o Comprende?

[Hans Deventer]

I didn't mean that no churches had a ministry toward the rich. I meant that because a certain church neglected its' mission to the poor didn't necessarily mean that same church was ministering to the wealthy. :o Comprende?

Ich verstehe.

[Michael B. Ross]

Dave, this thread is intriguing. It causes me to reflect on the wealthy I have pastored. I admit my thoughts are generalizations, but I have pastored enough wealthy people to see some patterns. The wealthy I have pastored were:
very warm, approachable and unassuming,
not particularly generous to the church,
extremely family-oriented,
very social (they loved to host parties), and
idea or project thinkers.Regarding item #5 above: The wealthy I have pastored were highly motivated when challenged to develop and support an innovative project with potentially long-term benefits. I witnessed several examples of the wealthy collaborating on a project when they were allowed to develop an idea that was "cutting-edge" and had an element of permanency.

So, if I were going to intentionally minister to the wealthy, I would visit them in their homes when welcomed, consider ways they might incorporate their families into church events and ministries, and challenge them to form and develop new ideas that might enhance the church's ministries for future generations.


In January, I have been asked to speak at a gathering of pastors. The topic will be something like, "How to minister to the wealthy." In my 64 years of being in the church of the Nazarene, I am aware of only one church that intentionally set out to minister to the wealthy. Wealthy individuals came in significant numbers and a lot of people who were not wealthy came too.

My question is, has your church intentionally set out to minister to the wealthy? If so, what specific things do you do? If not, why not?

[Ian Gentles]

A tale of two churches. Our Naz church is definatly a poor persons church, it just is that way, cant explain it. Anglican church we often attend is a rich persons church and to be honest very English middle class which makes many poorer folks uncomfortable. I find surprisingly, that the rich folks are satisfied with less deep teaching than the poorer folks, church for them is more a spiritual social center.
As a mission we obviously have rich people on board of governors, and for some reason they seem to think we are exceptionally spiritual as we do the work we do, could never understand this?
Find rich Anglican church folks do give, church just completed a new three million pound extension, but its a building that a poor person might have difficulty in entering!
Maybe my answer is the classes need to be ministered to seperatly? as this seems to be what happens anyway!


http://iangentles.livejournal.com

[Marg Webb]

Greg, I really appreciate the thought you put into your response. I certainly believe you are on the right track. There are a few issues you didn't mention:

Time -- It has been my personal experience that Nazarene pastors don't respect the value of my time. When I am working, people pay me $500 per hour for my time. When I show up for a meeting that was announced for 6 p.m. and it doesn't start until 6:30, that is just like burning 250 $10 bills. Those who are wealthy place a higher than normal importance on meetings starting at the time they are announced and ending at the designated time.

Teach true humility -- The greatest barrier to rich people entering heaven is pride. When you violate James 2:3 by favoring the wealthy over the poor you do an injustice to both. I was once at a dinner meeting with a group of people that I considered my peers. The chairman pointed me out and introduced me as a "person of wealth and influence." I resigned from the group, because I was unwilling to participate at a different level than the rest.

Lessons of true humility are best learned during times when money won't fix what is wrong. Some of the greatest opportunities for a pastor to minister to wealthy individuals are when they are vulnerable -- illness, family difficulties, personal disappointment, etc. When a wealthy person has an out of control teen in trouble, it is easy to teach him what the scripture means when it says, "lean not on your own understanding."

Teach Generosity -- I have observed that many pastors are hesitant to ask the wealthy to be generous. A wealthy person who isn't generous won't make it to heaven. If a pastor doesn't preach about generosity, how is a wealthy person supposed to learn it?

Help with their children -- Active programs for children and youth attract wealthy adults. The very first thing a church that wants to minister to wealthy adults should do is invest in programs for children and youth.

More later.

I did not know where to cut your letter.
I loved the whole thing.
I think the Pastor that decided you would not "fit" was very ignorant and if you followed his life I would imagine he isn't Pastoring or he is not a successful leader of a flock.
This whole subject just burns me up. Not that you mentioned it but because it must happen.
I absolutely detest this type of persons thoughts.
I was standing in line just yesterday at Krogers and I had a lot of groceries and a little Mexican man behind me had two things and I had him go in front of me.
Another women beside me nearly had a floor rolling fit. Imagine putting a Mexican in front of me. I did not notice his color I just saw that I would hold the man up because of all of my purchases.
I have written this note twice because I am so absolutely disgusted. I so hate with a vengence when I see people gushed over or shunned.
Always I do something about it if it is a shun.
Oh well this is a little of my thoughts.

[Judy Hamilton]

Interesing thread Dave..I have been wealthy and I am near poor..and I prefer wealthy(smiley face here)
when i was a pesron of means..my monies was given fluidly to those where I felt the Lord asked to be placed, or when others came to me with their palm up
Now that I need and must use some of these monies on my own needs, i admit that I do not give as quickly, however my heart is there with the needy
I recall the pastor of our church pandering to those of us who were persons of means..quite embarrassing, i might add.
and seems we were "expected" when there was a lack, to take up the slack.

It is good to allow the person of means to decide for themselves where to place their monies..and not place a guilt trip of sorts on them. We each know how and when to answer a need and how much to give without someone making this decision for us.

I looked for programs to support our children's needs and I lneeded and looked for good solid meat in the teaching from the pulpit.

we each have talents and gifts to offer on the form of working the nursery, so a weary mom can relax and soak her spirit in the service, or teaching little ones, or youth, or leading a missions team, or being a part of a missions team. Finances seem to not color some of the wealthy as willing in some of the oh hum needs a church has behind the scenes.

I surrender all..does not to me interpret, "Here is my wealth church, to use as you choose" I surrender all to me is here I am Lord use me..in both simple and complex ways. This can mean simply being a faithful servant, doing tithes the same as the person in the pew in front of me and behind me and working behind the scenes in the nursery.


I feel the person of wealth has a need to blend and enjoy friendship with no strings or dollar signs attached


Every Christian has the same Bible and admonition to follow, seek the Lord earnestly,
on our knees we are the same height and the prayers of fathers and mothers and grandparents for their chilren and families, be they poor or rich, bring all of us at some time or another to a level plane in our quiet..loud times before the Lord.

Do we each not have spiritual needs where our pastor in messages wants to minister Gods faithfulness, His grace and mercy and to strengthen the places no one sees except our own inner selves, and to be the salt in our lives and create in us a thirst for more of Him? The poor and those of wealth can stand next to each other and acknowledge this same need in each other. In this regard, money has no voice.

[Sue Pyles]

Our church just fulfills the Great Commission.:preach

[David Showalter]

Dave shared,

Those are the things that cause people to become wealthy. Unfortunately, when Nazarenes have done what was taught, many times they are no longer welcome in Nazarene churches. I can give you a long list of my contemporaries who grew up Nazarene, went to Nazarene schools, became successful and were basically run off from their Nazarene churches.

David replies,

Dave, could it be that most folks that have become successful out in the professional/financial world have had to begin thinking outside the box and not living or journeying with a narrow set of absolutes in their thinking. Are the more educated/successful among us more apt to question some of the things we have traditionally promoted? I don't think you wanted, nor is it necessary to steer this thread into our theological and traditional practices, however it seems to me that some of our successful folks have gotten a taste of the vastness of the "Kingdom", and the world in which we live,and no longer feel like they can fit within the confines of our box. I personally think their experiences along the journey to "success" leads to their eyes, hearts, and minds being open to a more flexible/non narrow view of doing and being the "church". Just some random thoughts.

[Billy Cox]

I really wish that the church preached generosity more than tithing. In my experience, there is far more joy in generosity than in tithing.

The big irony is that Abraham joyfully gave a tithe; we have codified the tithe and replaced the joy with obligation.

[Ian Gentles]

I really wish that the church preached generosity more than tithing. In my experience, there is far more joy in generosity than in tithing.

The big irony is that Abraham joyfully gave a tithe; we have codified the tithe and replaced the joy with obligation.

Agree Bill, tything seems often so legal!

[Charles W Christian]

In January, I have been asked to speak at a gathering of pastors. The topic will be something like, "How to minister to the wealthy." In my 64 years of being in the church of the Nazarene, I am aware of only one church that intentionally set out to minister to the wealthy. Wealthy individuals came in significant numbers and a lot of people who were not wealthy came too.

My question is, has your church intentionally set out to minister to the wealthy? If so, what specific things do you do? If not, why not?




Dave -
This is intriguing topic to me.

The positives of it, I believe are:
1) It's true that many times in the Church of the Nazarene, because of our roots among the poor and working classes, the wealthy have too often been made to feel unnecessarily "guilty" and even out of place at times;
2) I think the self-esteem of pastors and church members, along with fear that if we "rely" upon the wealthy too much (in terms of church budget, etc.), and there are just a few of them, and if they somehow become controlling or manipulative, then power would be in the hands of a few wealthy folks who control a large portion of the church budget! This is an unfair kind of prejudice, and there need to be practical ways to avoid this;
3) Many wealthy folks I've ministered to and with do not like to feel as if they are being "favored", yet many pastors and laypeople DO -- intentionally or not -- embarrass wealthy parishioners by giving them too much "favor" in matters. This puts undue pressure, I believe....

Some RED FLAGS I have:
1) Even in Bible days, the tendency has been to favor and cater to the wealthy in unhealthy ways. The Bible is FILLED with implicit and explicit warnings -- not just suggestions, but warnings -- about the dangers of favoring/targeting the wealthy. James explicitly warns about even the hint of this, and I think this should always be something that rich and poor alike take note of. The rich are to "take pride in their low position," while the poor/oppressed are to enjoy their "high position." This is one way that the church becomes part of keeping a proper balance between rich and poor, it seems.

2) Do we really "target" anyone? Should we? I don't like the "target" language in much of church life today (and I have a degree in marketing from a very good business school!). I get red flags when I hear let's "target families," etc. It makes me see images of Jesus Himself asking, "But what about the singles?" Words like "target the rich," makes me hear Jesus saying, "But what about the poor?" To be fair, "targeting" the blue collar folks would make me hear, "What about white collar folks?" ,etc., etc. I think what you're probably putting together is about finding ways to let wealthy folks really participate in ways that will benefit them and the church, and if this is the case, it eases my red flags a bit, but we must remember that Jesus came as a poor person precisely because it is the rich who are most often favored, and it is the poor who are most often oppressed, squelched, and misrepresented!

3) My church has a LOT of rich people, but we have a lot of poor people, too. I think the rich Christians we have for the most part respect that I work hard, that I prepare hard, and that I have a heart for the poor and help lead them and join with them in doing all we can as a church to innovatively support and give voice to the poor among us. I think the poor folks here respect that I don't "cater" to the rich, but that I try to give everyone a fair hearing on matters, and I'm not afraid to confront rich or poor about things that need to be confronted. Furthermore, I do make myself maybe even a little more accessible to underrepresented folks in our congregation, but again, the rich and the poor know this and they all seem to respect it. This flows from a theological position that says that we as people in the church don't need to be comfortable all the time; rather, we need to be discipled!

The poor often need to be discipled in the following ways:
-- They are important; their lack of wealth does not make them unimportant in the church, even though often in the world they are treated as such;
-- They often need to find a better way to manage their money, and they can learn this from (non-condescending) wealthy folks who are willing to teach;
-- They should not be enabled in their poor choices, nor should their mismanagement always cause people to "jump" at their every need and whim;

The RICH often need to be discipled in similar ways:
-- They are important, but their money does not give them the same kind of importance/prominence in the Church that it does in the world: their wealth alone does not make them important or all-knowing;
-- They often need to learn to manage their time better, and not just throw money at things, so I challenge rich folks to "show up", to "go" and minister, as well as send funds, so that their discipleship can really happen in a way that challenges their faith and stretches them;
-- They should not be enabled in any unhealthy uses of their funds (like always getting what they want regardless of what others say), and they should be often reminded of the [I]responsibility (not just opportunity) they have to give priority to the Kingdom of God in their finances and in their dealings with the poor.

4) There needs to be a consistent emphasis that we are ALL equal at the foot of the cross, and that our wealth is not who we are (another reason I don't like the 'targeting' language; it sounds too much like an essential part of their identity), it is simply what we have, and it should not "have" us!
=====
When rich or poor are challenged in these parallel ways, some don't like it! I've had poor people leave churches, because we would not enable poor choices or give them "sympathy without compassion" (Compassion takes more time and is more holistic -- but that's another sermon! :-)). I've had rich people get offended, because the power and control they were accustomed to -- that made them a "success" in the business world, for instance -- did not necessarily equate with "success" in the Kingdom of God, nor did it buy them prominence in church life! Once, after such an encounter, I had a woman say: "Are you sure you want to make __ mad? He/she may take their tithe and themselves away!" My response: "Are you sure he/she wants to make God upset by doing what they're doing? Should we not confront that just for money's sake? How much is our integrity worth, anyway?" Of course, I would like to think that not even Bill Gates could buy my integrity. I hope this is true. And if it is, there are no folks that rich even on Naznet, so maybe I won't have to worry!

Seriously, most rich folks I've met, if I treat them with respect, listen to them, and try to demonstrate that our church's ministry is doing some important for the Kingdom of God without catering to them, the good ones usually respond and join in. If I go down the road of "targeting" or even catering to them, eventually one of the "little ones" that Jesus is so protective of (usually the poor/oppressed) gets overlooked and trampled on, and I think this is a theological error that ranks right up there with heresy!

I cannot attend the pastor's presentation you're going to give, Dave, due to schedule conflict. I would like to hear it/read it. I hope that the kinds of red flags I have shared are already factored into what you're going to say, though, otherwise I would not be as enthused about it, with all due respect.

What I would love to see is a presentation that is partly what you're aiming at (practical advice on not alienating the wealthy, if I'm reading you right), and partly a presentation from a person such as yourself that says, "Don't cater and cave, and if they give you trouble, give me a call, and I'll put some loving pressure on them to straighten up!" Better yet, how about a region-wide presentation (with DS's present) to everyone who makes 100,000 and up on how to behave with humility and effectiveness as part of your church family without alienating the poor or unhealthily playing church politics. Now THAT one I would pay money to see (even though I technically would not qualify to be there!)....:basic01

All the best to you, and thanks for providing a cathartic outlet like Naznet.

Blessings,
Charles

[Dave McClung]

Dave shared,

Those are the things that cause people to become wealthy. Unfortunately, when Nazarenes have done what was taught, many times they are no longer welcome in Nazarene churches. I can give you a long list of my contemporaries who grew up Nazarene, went to Nazarene schools, became successful and were basically run off from their Nazarene churches.

David replies,

Dave, could it be that most folks that have become successful out in the professional/financial world have had to begin thinking outside the box and not living or journeying with a narrow set of absolutes in their thinking. Are the more educated/successful among us more apt to question some of the things we have traditionally promoted? I don't think you wanted, nor is it necessary to steer this thread into our theological and traditional practices, however it seems to me that some of our successful folks have gotten a taste of the vastness of the "Kingdom", and the world in which we live,and no longer feel like they can fit within the confines of our box. I personally think their experiences along the journey to "success" leads to their eyes, hearts, and minds being open to a more flexible/non narrow view of doing and being the "church". Just some random thoughts.

David, I am sure that your comments are right for a few, but not for most of the ones I know. When I talk to my contemporaries who have left the Church of the Nazarene, their issues are rarely about theology or even polity. People usually leave over interpersonal issues. More times than not, it is over issues involving their children and youth.

In the past, the church's stand on alcohol may have been an issue. I rarely hear it mentioned any more. In most of the "nonchurch" places I go, there are as many people drinking mineral water as alcohol.

I do think everyone, wealthy or not, faces at least one time in their lives when God asks them to sacrifice (change their life style to help others). It is probably harder for a wealthy person to respond correctly than for one who isn't wealthy, but the nature of the challenge is the same. I believe that pastors can do a better job of helping people make the right decision when God asks them to sacrifice. Frankly, I rarely hear pastors talk about "sacrifice" any more. Could it be because many pastors have not faced the issue of sacrifice in their own lives?

When Linda and I were in Bethany last month, Pastor Busic preached a great sermon on tithing. My only criticism is that he apologized. Pastors don't need to apologize for preaching what people need to hear. Teaching a person to tithe and to be generous is providing the person with the tools of happiness.

[Kevin Rector]

I pastor a blue collar church. I minister to anyone that God puts in my path and I try to "target" them all. However, I'm much more successful with blue collar folks, and I would venture a guess that would be because we have a blue collar church.

So far the middle class people that have come to our church to visit have not been repeat visitors. Some of that may come from the less than professional music (we have me leading the music rather than someone with the gifts of worship leading). Some of it may be because we have an old run-down building (We're working on that). Some of it may be because the people don't wear particularly fashionable clothing. Some of it may be that we don't have really fancy teen programming (hard to do with only one teen in the church).

I regularly pray that God will bring along a middle class family that has a heart to serve (maybe move one to our community) that will be the first "token" middle class family in our church. They would need to be people that will look past the social/educational differences that they have with the rest of the congregation. God has to do it because my attempts to retain middle class people have so far been unsuccessful, and I've tried hard.

It's my observation from my 34 years in the COTN that it is easier to get working class folk to attend a middle class church than it is to get middle class folk to attend a working class church. But I could be wrong about that.

As far as the wealthy beyond the middle class well, I have no clue.

[Wilson L. Deaton]

My question is, has your church intentionally set out to minister to the wealthy?

No.

If not, why not?

While Jesus was open to ministering to the wealthy, and did so when opportunity presented it himself, he didn't "intentionally set out" to do so. Neither have I led my church to do so.

Luke 4:18
"The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to release the oppressed,"

Jesus intentionally set out to minister to those on the other end of the spectrum. Given his example, and the massive amount of Bible teachings on ministering to the poor, I would have to discern a specific "calling" before I would lead my church to intentionally target the wealthy.

Truth is, I'm uncomfortable with where we are now. I'd like to see us be more intentional with regards to the poor as opposed to the more middle-class focus we have. (My church is mostly people like teachers/nurses/techncians....)

Wilson

P.S. For the purposes of this thread, I'm ignorig the fact, that on a global level, most Americans are wealthy.

[Dave McClung]

....So far the middle class people that have come to our church to visit have not been repeat visitors. Some of that may come from the less than professional music (we have me leading the music rather than someone with the gifts of worship leading). Some of it may be because we have an old run-down building (We're working on that). Some of it may be because the people don't wear particularly fashionable clothing. Some of it may be that we don't have really fancy teen programming (hard to do with only one teen in the church)......



Kevin, I doubt your conclusions about why folks don't come back.

The visitors saw your church before they came to visit. If they were looking for buildings, and fancy clothes, they wouldn't visit the first time. My guess is that your congregation don't make them feel welcome.

Many times "white collar" (using your term) people have an air of confidence about them that causes others to wait on them to be friendly. When Linda and I moved to Washington, we decided to do an experiment. When we visited churches, we would stand near the exit door and look people in the eyes, but would not introduce ourselves. We went to nine different churches. In only 2 of them did anyone initiate an introduction. How much effort does it take to stick your hand out, say "Hello, my name is ______". We are glad that you are here today." Teach your people to be friendly to visitors. They will come back.

I will obeserve that white colloar people are not turned off by old buildings, but they are turned off by poor housekeeping. Are light bulbs burned out? Has trash collected in the hymnal racks? Are old coffee cups sitting on the altar? It doesn't take money to be clean.

[Anne and Dwayne Hood]

If possible, our people may over do welcomes to church. The people swarm newcomers.
They seem to take the attitude, that was developed over the years that it was a military church--that they had to learn to love each person quickly, because they would soon be shipping out. They were only considered a visitor, the first time they attended.

[Greg Gates]

Kevin, I doubt your conclusions about why folks don't come back

Dave, I think you've got enough inside of you to write a great article on the subject. Very helpful posts.

[Kevin Rector]

Kevin, I doubt your conclusions about why folks don't come back.

The visitors saw your church before they came to visit. If they were looking for buildings, and fancy clothes, they wouldn't visit the first time. My guess is that your congregation don't make them feel welcome.

Dave, I respect you immensely.

Furthermore, I have no idea why we have been unsuccessful in retaining middle class people, I was merely venturing a guess.

In fact I've always tried to follow up with every family that visited and never came back to find out why they choose to not return, they almost never return my phone calls regardless of income/education/class level and if I do get a hold of them they usually don't give substantial answers (perhaps to avoid hurting my feelings).

A few things to consider:

We have probably one of the friendliest churches I have ever been to and I have nothing to do with that; it's just the people. When a visitor comes to our church at least 5-6 different people will greet them. Our last middle class family that visited remarked to me that our congregation was incredibly friendly, but they never came back. Perhaps they noticed the lack of teens the age of their children. I took them homemade brownies from my wife. I tried to set a date to take the husband/father out to lunch. All to no avail.

To be fair, we have not had many middle class visitors that had no connection to the church, perhaps 4 families in 2 years. We've had substantially more blue collar and poor people visit. So I am far from an expert on the topic.

But I know for sure it has nothing to do with being friendly to visitors in our case or the cleanliness of our church building.

[Bob Evans]

I will go out on a personal limb. I had mixed results with people of means because of some of my own personal self esteem issues. I have joked that I could never pastor a wealthy church because I would be a k mart in the midst of Younkers or Maceys. More than anything I think that has gotten in the way of ministry to people means for me.

[Dave McClung]

No.



While Jesus was open to ministering to the wealthy, and did so when opportunity presented it himself, he didn't "intentionally set out" to do so. Neither have I led my church to do so.

Luke 4:18
"The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to release the oppressed,"

Jesus intentionally set out to minister to those on the other end of the spectrum. Given his example, and the massive amount of Bible teachings on ministering to the poor, I would have to discern a specific "calling" before I would lead my church to intentionally target the wealthy.

Truth is, I'm uncomfortable with where we are now. I'd like to see us be more intentional with regards to the poor as opposed to the more middle-class focus we have. (My church is mostly people like teachers/nurses/techncians....)

Wilson

Wilson, I beg to differ. Jesus did intentionally minister to those at the "successful" end of the economy. Matthew was a tax collecter. In today's society, that would equate to a government official or a CPA. Peter, James and John were self-employed business men before Jesus called them to leave their boats and nets to follow him. In that society one who owned a boat and nets was high up in the economic ladder. The Apostle Paul was a Roman Citizen and lawyer -- at the top of that society.

Jesus himself was probably trained as a carpenter -- a skilled craftsman. Certainly not at the bottom of the economic ladder.

When Jesus saw Zachias in the Sycamore Tree, Jesus took time away from the crowds to go to his house. Zachias was obviously a very wealthy individual.

When the "Rich Young Ruler" asked Jesus concerning salvation, the Bible specifically says that Jesus looked at him and "liked him" (CEV). Jesus took that occasion to observe how difficult it is for a wealthy person to be saved, but in context, what he said about rich people is not different from what he said to all of us in Matthew 7:13-14, "Enter ye in by the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leads to destruction, and many are they that enter in thereby. For narrow is the gate, and straitened the way, that leads unto life, and few are they that find it."

Incidentally, have you ever thought about who provided the Upper Room? The narrative in the scripture does not mention who owned the Upper Room, but logic tells you that it had to be a very wealthy person. In that society for a person to own a building with an upstairs room that would accomodate a group of that size, the person had to be wealthy. Some wealthy person made that room available for Jesus and his disciples. After Jesus fed the 5,000, he took a boat that was large enough to accomodate Jesus and his disciples. Who owned the boat? Throughout his ministry, Jesus included wealthy individuals in a way that allowed them to serve others.

Even the first miracle of Jesus, turning water into wine, was done to benefit a wealthy individual. A poor family wouldn't have a wedding party serving wine to the guests.

Jesus had a "balanced" ministry that included both the wealthy and the poor. When a church trys to minister to the poor, but excludes the wealthy, the minsitry of the church becomes unbalanced and never has enough resources to accomplish the goals.

I believe that those who say that the Church of the Nazarene was founded by poor people, distort our heritage. For example, when we hear about Uncle Buddy his status as a poor, uneducated person is always stressed. The fact is that when he was saved, he was poor and uneducated, but he overcame those. He became a highly educated and wealthy individual. How often do you hear that he became wealthy enough to personally provide room, board and tuition for 100 "preacher boys" at Penile College in Greenville, TX? One of my great uncles was one of the 100 "preacher boys."

[Wilson L. Deaton]

Wilson, I beg to differ.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

My experience has been that I cannot have productive conversations on this topic...

Wilson

[David Warren]

An awesome and interesting post Dave!

I have never intentionally ministered to the wealthy but have had the privilege of pastoring a few. The church I pastor now is in many ways a "white collar" church in a blue collar county. Which has it's own issues. I think, and hope, that I have ministered to all people equally. But I know different people, no matter what their financial status need to be ministered to differently. My father, who had an above average income always hated anything that pointed out his financial status. In times pasted he had pastors that posted a contribution list, not of names but amounts, and dad always said he could tell you who gave what. He never liked anything that drew attention to him!

One of the major differences in ministering to wealthy individuals you have already hit on, that being time. I try to respect their time and try to make myself available on their time schedule if at all possible. The individuals I know are sometimes easier to talk to over a breakfast or lunch verses evening and weekends. Also I try to understand their involvement in the community, as well as the church and know that if they are serving on community boards they often represent the church at these places.

Over the years I have, right or wrong, not pushed attendance at Sunday evening and Wenesday evening services and activites. Although I do stress that they be apart of a weekly celebration time and some small group where they are accountable to others. As well as have some specific ministry they are invovled in.

Another area with the wealthy is being able to challenge them. Not just financially, but having a vision for the church and community that is big enough to inspire. Often dreaming of a church moving from 50 to 75 is not enough. It can be a goal along the way but not the end.

A third area I would mention is stress. As a college student I lived in the home of a friend that owned his own construction business. I saw him late at night in a family room working on blueprints as his family watched TV. I saw him early in the morning up before everyone else concerned about who was going to work where that day. I learned owning a business was a 24/7 job a lot like pastoring not a 9 to 5 one and all this creates more stress.

Many of our churches live from week to week with very little planning which will drive those who own their own business crazy. Unfortunately I've seen districts operate this way also, which really hurts and is uninspiring to individuals who have to plan for a company of 10 or 1,000 to survive.

Anyway I could add alot more, especially in the area of being genuine as a pastor and understanding that many needs (i.e. family & health) are similar. Anyway these are a few things, I believe I've learned over the years. That I hope help me minister to an individual of wealth

[Dave McClung]

Dave, I respect you immensely.

Furthermore, I have no idea why we have been unsuccessful in retaining middle class people, I was merely venturing a guess.

In fact I've always tried to follow up with every family that visited and never came back to find out why they choose to not return, they almost never return my phone calls regardless of income/education/class level and if I do get a hold of them they usually don't give substantial answers (perhaps to avoid hurting my feelings).

A few things to consider:

We have probably one of the friendliest churches I have ever been to and I have nothing to do with that; it's just the people. When a visitor comes to our church at least 5-6 different people will greet them. Our last middle class family that visited remarked to me that our congregation was incredibly friendly, but they never came back. Perhaps they noticed the lack of teens the age of their children. I took them homemade brownies from my wife. I tried to set a date to take the husband/father out to lunch. All to no avail.

To be fair, we have not had many middle class visitors that had no connection to the church, perhaps 4 families in 2 years. We've had substantially more blue collar and poor people visit. So I am far from an expert on the topic.

But I know for sure it has nothing to do with being friendly to visitors in our case or the cleanliness of our church building.

Kevin

I was just guessing based on my own experience. I have always been an advocate that a church should minister to the people the Lord sends their way. Who knows why the Lords sends people to one church and not another?

Dave

[Dave McClung]

In my original post, I said that I have known of only one church that was intentional about ministering to wealthy individuals. It was the Puyallup, WA Church of the Nazarene while Dr. Parrott was pastor.

Puyallup is very much a "blue collar" town. In fact, it is home of one of the largest fairs in the west.

When Dr. Parrott was pastor, he did things that attracted a lot of wealthy people without running off anyone else. The church experienced rapid growth, built a new church building, and a new compassionate ministry center.

The main thing that attracted people was Dr. Parrott's sermons. They were full of meat. Many people thought that he just spoke from his heart, because he didn't have any visible notes. In truth, it spent more time in preparing sermons than anyone I know. His sermons were written out in detail, then reduced to an outline. The outline was in his pocket with lots of highlights and underlines. Speaking without notes wasn't because he was ad libbing. It was because he had practiced enough that he had it memorized.

Every worship service was well thought out. It started on time and ended on time.

He considered that most people need a break in the middle of the week, so he moved the Sunday night service to Wednesday night. On Sunday night the church had small groups. On Wednesday night there was a full service -- choir in robes, and a full sermon. Puyallup's Wednesday night service had several hundred people in attendance.

He put a lot of emphasis on quality in the children and youth programs.

He also put a high priority on Biblical Education. He added a staff member who's responsibility was to teach the entire congregation the "Narrative of the Bible" because he found that most Nazarenes have a "piece meal" education and do not have a good understanding of the chronology of the Bible and how the various stories fit together into a single narrative.

I am still working to figure out which parts of his program could be done by others and which parts were just a result of his unique talent.

[Ian Gentles]

I did not find difficulties in my past railway/police ministry dealing with the top brass, the successful, richer folks. In cultivating their friendship i made my ministry a lot easier as it was they who opened doors and made resources available to me.

http://iangentles.livejournal.com

[Dave McClung]

So far in this discussion all of the posts, including mine, have lumped "the wealthy" into one group as if they are all of the same. Obviously, wealthy people normally come in couples. One of the difficulties in ministering to wealthy couples is how different the individuals are.

In one of the big cases I tried, we hired psycologists to do a survey of potential jurors to come up with a profile that was most likely to give my client a favorable verdict. We found that our "ideal" juror was a business executive. We also found that our worst possible juror was the wife of a business executive. It was remarkable how different their opinions were.

I have observed that many pastors pay a lot of attention to the business executives and do their best to avoid their wives. I have also observed that when "successful" families leave the church, it is often the wife who is mad and her anger often relates to her children.

So my advice to pators who want to relate to wealthy families is to pay more attention to the wives and children and less to the husband.

[Greg Gates]

...when "successful" families leave the church, it is often the wife who is mad... So my advice to pators who want to relate to wealthy families is to pay more attention to the wives and children and less to the husband.

These insights are really valuable to me. I had no idea how wide my experiences have been shared by others. Thanks.

[Dave McClung]

These insights are really valuable to me. I had no idea how wide my experiences have been shared by others. Thanks.

It is not my intention to offend anyone, but it is sometimes helpful to examine "trends." When the same patter occurs in society, one can recognize it.

It is a fact that the "corporate ladder" tends to put a lot of stress on marriages. A byproduct of that stress is that many "successful" business men are on their second or later marriage. Second or later wives have a remarkably different profile. Ministering to those kinds of families is a challenge, but can be rewarding.

[Billy Cox]

[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3]So far in this discussion all of the posts, including mine, have lumped "the wealthy" into one group as if they are all of the same.

For the purposes of discussion, a certain amount of generalization is inevitable and necessary, but you are right that wealthy people come in many different 'packages'.

In this thread we have been using 'blue collar' interchangeably with 'poor', but plenty of business owners are 'blue collar' and they are not poor. A farmer might have grease stains on his overalls, but if he owns thousands of acres of fertile land, then he is not poor. A woman in her 80s may drive a 'grandma' car and wear dowdy clothes, but she may also be the richest (and possibly most generous) person in the church.

I am curious as to how a children/youth program could be instrumental in 'chasing off' a wealthy family while not having a similar effect on middle class or poor families.

[Walter Thompson]

Just an observation:
One of the problems in the local church between the have and the have-not's is in their teens.
The clothes, mp3 players, i-pods etc show up/used in the youth meetings and they are most definitely a real problem. I have seen teens on both sides of this issue convince their parents they needed to find another church. One church I know of, even now, is having such a problem with this that they are having to adopt rules prohibiting the use of these along with cell phones at church and youth activities. I think eventually this will be a reason that some teens leave the church also. Their parents also often use their influence to get rules changed to accommodate their children which also becomes a sore spot and makes life very difficult for the youth pastor. (To the extent that one youth pastor has already been fired over his insistence that the youth not be allowed to use their cells for messaging during service etc.) (Not my church.)
I have also seen where poorer kids leave because they can't dress as nice as the wealthy kids.
I know with proper teaching this can be overcome, but it has to start with the parents, then the children or else it will be a problem. The teen years are the most difficult years to minister in so many ways, but it is also the most rewarding years and fruitful years. But one needs to have some good training in order to minister to all. Something that many of us have not received from our formal education.

[Dave McClung]

I am curious as to how a children/youth program could be instrumental in 'chasing off' a wealthy family while not having a similar effect on middle class or poor families.

I can speak only from observation, but I have observed that some of the families who come to our church come for what the get. My wife teaches a children's Sunday School class. When we travel, she buys small gifts for the children in her class. The children from poor families are highly motivated by the gifts, while the children from wealthier families often leave them in the class room.

Another thing Linda does is look for opportunities for the children to be up front in the church. At least once a month, the kids say a scripture they have memorized or sign a song in the "big church." The children from wealthy families are much more motivated to perform than the children from poorer families. From that, I have concluded that certain types of programs appeal more to people with wealth than others.

Those who have run children's programs churches will testify that the fastest way to run off some families is to not give their child a speaking part in the children's musical. Mothers from poor or middle class families are less likely to be offended by such "slights" than mothers from wealthy families.

[Dave McClung]

In January, I have been asked to speak at a gathering of pastors. The topic will be something like, "How to minister to the wealthy." In my 64 years of being in the church of the Nazarene, I am aware of only one church that intentionally set out to minister to the wealthy. Wealthy individuals came in significant numbers and a lot of people who were not wealthy came too.

My question is, has your church intentionally set out to minister to the wealthy? If so, what specific things do you do? If not, why not?




Any pastor that wants to be intentional about ministering to the rich should follow the outline that Paul gave to Timothy. I encourage you to read the entire chapter, because Paul dealt with two different groups that pastors often lump into one. Don't confuse "Those who desire to be rich" and "Those who are rich." Sometimes they are the same and sometimes they are not.

Anyway, what Paul said to Timothy about ministering to the rich was, 1 Timothy 4:17-19: 17Warn the rich people of this world not to be proud or to trust in wealth that is easily lost. Tell them to have faith in God, who is rich and blesses us with everything we need to enjoy life. 18Instruct them to do as many good deeds as they can and to help everyone. Remind the rich to be generous and share what they have. 19This will lay a solid foundation for the future, so that they will know what true life is like."

Every sentence in this passage could support a sermon. I can visualize a six part series:

1. Don't be proud
2. Don't trust in wealth
3. Trust in God
4. Do Good Deeds (Behave yourself)
5. Share what you Have
6. Be generous (Have a good attitude while you are sharing.)

[Linda Schroller]

Interesting posts to read, given that we just left a church (non Naz) that was strongly blue collar working class folks until recently. Fairly new pastor has decided to target the upper middle class 20-30 something age group. Blue collar working class folks are not into dropping Bible study for "fraternities" and "sororities". Not keen on testimonies of how God provided this or that one with "7 figure housing".

I'm all for targetting everyone--young, old, in between, rich, poor, middle. But targetting just one group is not good at all.

[Dave McClung]

I'm all for targetting everyone--young, old, in between, rich, poor, middle. But targetting just one group is not good at all.

Linda, I am in complete agreement with you.

[Mike McVey]

Wilson, I beg to differ. Jesus did intentionally minister to those at the "successful" end of the economy. Matthew was a tax collecter. In today's society, that would equate to a government official or a CPA. Peter, James and John were self-employed business men before Jesus called them to leave their boats and nets to follow him. In that society one who owned a boat and nets was high up in the economic ladder. The Apostle Paul was a Roman Citizen and lawyer -- at the top of that society.

Jesus himself was probably trained as a carpenter -- a skilled craftsman. Certainly not at the bottom of the economic ladder.

When Jesus saw Zachias in the Sycamore Tree, Jesus took time away from the crowds to go to his house. Zachias was obviously a very wealthy individual.

When the "Rich Young Ruler" asked Jesus concerning salvation, the Bible specifically says that Jesus looked at him and "liked him" (CEV). Jesus took that occasion to observe how difficult it is for a wealthy person to be saved, but in context, what he said about rich people is not different from what he said to all of us in Matthew 7:13-14, "Enter ye in by the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leads to destruction, and many are they that enter in thereby. For narrow is the gate, and straitened the way, that leads unto life, and few are they that find it."

Incidentally, have you ever thought about who provided the Upper Room? The narrative in the scripture does not mention who owned the Upper Room, but logic tells you that it had to be a very wealthy person. In that society for a person to own a building with an upstairs room that would accomodate a group of that size, the person had to be wealthy. Some wealthy person made that room available for Jesus and his disciples. After Jesus fed the 5,000, he took a boat that was large enough to accomodate Jesus and his disciples. Who owned the boat? Throughout his ministry, Jesus included wealthy individuals in a way that allowed them to serve others.

Even the first miracle of Jesus, turning water into wine, was done to benefit a wealthy individual. A poor family wouldn't have a wedding party serving wine to the guests.

Jesus had a "balanced" ministry that included both the wealthy and the poor. When a church trys to minister to the poor, but excludes the wealthy, the minsitry of the church becomes unbalanced and never has enough resources to accomplish the goals.

I believe that those who say that the Church of the Nazarene was founded by poor people, distort our heritage. For example, when we hear about Uncle Buddy his status as a poor, uneducated person is always stressed. The fact is that when he was saved, he was poor and uneducated, but he overcame those. He became a highly educated and wealthy individual.

How often do you hear that he became wealthy enough to personally provide room, board and tuition for 100 "preacher boys" at Penile College in Greenville, TX? One of my great uncles was one of the 100 "preacher boys."

I want to dissect the whole of this response, but it would take too much time. What I would say is that you asked a specific question to which Wilson answered honestly and then you unloaded on him for reasons that do not emphasize your original question.

Did Jesus minister to the wealthy? Yes. Did Jesus intentionally minister to the wealthy? Depends. Jesus intentionally ministered to the outcasts of his society. Some were wealthy, some were not. The only group of people that Jesus intentionally ministered to that were wealthy were the Pharisees. I would be careful of comparing fishermen of Jesus' day with everyday entrepreneurs. That is taking a lot of jump. Fishermen were considered unclean and did not regularly attend synagogue. Tax collectors were seen as those who slept with the enemy. And I don't remember Paul ever being a lawyer. Also Jesus being trained as a carpenter (more likely stone-cutter) was not a respectable job in 1st Century Palestine. The rich young ruler example was someone coming to him, not someone who Jesus was intentionally seeking to minister to. As far as the Upper Room, most likely it was, as most of Jesus' ministry, funded by wives of rich men. Early Christianity made its way financially by ministering to women who were married to money. Oh yeah, women were considered outcasts as well.

I don't think Jesus had a balanced ministry. He ministered to everyone around him despite circumstances.

As far as the founding of the CotN, I have never heard anyone say that the founders were poor. But they were all committed to ministering to the poor. Bresee was most likely a very rich man. Thank you for sharing Uncle Bud's story. I never put two and two together with him, though it now makes since.

I would disagree with Wilson in that Jesus did not seek out poor people, but he definitely did not seek out the wealthy either. But he always sought out the outcasts, or to rebuke those who did not take care of the outcasts.

[Mike McVey]

So far in this discussion all of the posts, including mine, have lumped "the wealthy" into one group as if they are all of the same.

Also, the posts have indirectly lumped "the poor" into one group as well, as if they are all the same. There are definitely different kinds of poor.

I have also enjoyed this thread and value the wisdom in it.

[Bob Evans]

In my mind the real question is the defination of poverty. Who is richer a wealthy man who doesn't know God or a low income man who knows God.
I am not sure Jesus defined need by bank account. But I am sure he came to seek and to save all who were in spiritual poverty no matter where they lived or what they drove.

[Jim Franklin]

Due to the fact that I did not get to stay at BNC and have a continuing career in higher education there have been times that I felt somewhat shunted off because I was not one of the middle income or higher socio-economic status. We could not afford the name brand jeans for our sons, theirs came from the Salvation Army thrift store. I was specifically told "You don't have to go to this church," meaning that I might find more acceptance at another one because I was clerking at a retail store rather than at my prepared professional level in order to keep bread and beans on the table. So since I had been invited to leave I and my family did. When I go back to that church to attend a funeral or other event I have a feeling of "I never could have fit in here."

Heard a story from some friends today who attend a Lutheran church nearby. They told of a family of considerable means who had recently started attending there after being long time prominent members in a nearby Presbyterian church. The reason for the switch was that the parent of one of the adults had died and was announced and not one note or visit or sign of recognition came from any member of the ministerial staff or any member of the Presbyterian church whatsoever. Lord, save our churches from such ignorance. As a student of culture and economics I am fully aware that the expectations of a wealthy family are different than mine but the question is about targeting the wealthy group. Since the Bible says "whosoever will may come" then I would have to think that in our pluralistic society that the wealthy families have to recognize that in a leveling community of a church setting just as in many other public settings that they will not always get to "sit in the prominent place" while I sit on the floor or in the foyer. As a PK I have witnessed situations where those of means expect the pastoral staff to bow to their wishes and designs for the congregation even if the leadership feels God's leadership to follow a different pattern because since they have invested the most money in the ongoing needs of the church then they have a sense of ownership.

I just saw on the TV program "House" which I do not normally watch because it comes on on Wednesday night when I am generally at church rather than home sick, an episode where the main character was to be sacked because the board member with the "100 million dollars" did not like the way "House" was conducting his professional care of his patients and was going to leave the governing board if he did not get his way. I trust that God will check the spirit of anyone who would feel that they have the right to expect a special deference in the church (body of Christ) setting.

Just trying to respond to the question of the thread from my own viewpoint and experience.

[Dave McClung]

. ...We could not afford the name brand jeans for our sons, theirs came from the Salvation Army thrift store. ..I

It is funny that you would mention this. I still remember when I was a kid my mother, a Nazarene pastor's wife, bought me a new pair of blue jeans. I kid you not, the brand name was "Tough Nut Jeans." Some of my friends wore Levi's. I got busy and mowed lawns to earn money so I could buy some Levi's.

By the time my son, Denny, got to college, we could afford to buy him Levi's . Where did he buy his jeans? Salvation Army and Goodwill.

PS: I just checked on Ebay. I was surprised to learn that you can still buy "Tuff-Nut" jeans.

[Mike Schutz]

Greg

Many of them are the children and granchildren of your church members. One of the great ironies of the Church of the Nazarene is our early leaders put a lot of emphasis on:

Working Hard
Getting a Good Education
Pinching Pennys

Those are the things that cause people to become wealthy. Unfortunately, when Nazarenes have done what was taught, many times they are no longer welcome in Nazarene churches. I can give you a long list of my contemporaries who grew up Nazarene, went to Nazarene schools, became successful and were basically run off from their Nazarene churches.





By, "run off," are you suggesting a conscious effort on the part of Nazarene clergy and laity, a subtle "you don't fit in" (possibly due to insecurity), or an opinion on the part of those leaving that "the church no longer meets my needs?"
I have seen the same with some who have gone on for higher education, especially if they do not live around colleges or universities.

[Mike Schutz]

[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3] Could it be because many pastors have not faced the issue of sacrifice in their own lives?

Dave, you're kidding, right?

No, I guess you are not. But the statement did make me laugh. Most pastors feel like sacrifice is all they ever do. That some resent it, as I occasionally do, is illustrative that we have not "dealt with the issue of sacrifice" in our own lives.

Those who are wealthy are not in that situation just because they have worked hard and pinched pennies. They are also skilled and possibly even gifted in areas necessary to achieve financial success. Gifted, highly skilled and talented people tend to have a high degree of self confidence, and not everyone with those skills also has the ability to help others feel at ease. They can be intimidating, elitist, and even condescending. (I'm not talking just about those who are wealthy. Those who are highly educated can be the same way.)

Many of the Nazarene pastors I have known in my life - hundreds, many of them pastoring small churches, are insecure and feel like failures a good deal of the time. Even if their churches are not small, they are often in financial situations where they are always watching every dime. In today's church environment, where a pastor is expected to be a CEO with minimal financial training, many feel terribly inadequate. (And many are themselves thousands of dollars in personal debt.)

This combination of interpersonal issues: an insecure pastor who on many days feels like a failure - and a secure, self confident person whom the world has labeled a success - in an environment where quite possibly the wealthy person could solve some of the real or perceived problems of the pastor, could lead to a mutually uncomfortable relationship.

(Perhaps I'm projecting my personal issues onto this. I have more than one 18 year old in my church who, after graduating from tech school, makes twice my salary. But I also have spent too many nights at the kitchen table of pastors listening to their frustrations to think that I am the only one.)

It is not a coincidence that the pastor you offer as a success in ministering to the wealthy was Dr. Parrott. He was not lacking in self confidence, and I think we all agree that he could have been a success in business. He certainly was a success as an administrator of a multi-million dollar university.

[Dave McClung]

Dave, you're kidding, right?

No, I guess you are not. But the statement did make me laugh. Most pastors feel like sacrifice is all they ever do. That some resent it, as I occasionally do, is illustrative that we have not "dealt with the issue of sacrifice" in our own lives.

Those who are wealthy are not in that situation just because they have worked hard and pinched pennies. They are also skilled and possibly even gifted in areas necessary to achieve financial success. Gifted, highly skilled and talented people tend to have a high degree of self confidence, and not everyone with those skills also has the ability to help others feel at ease. They can be intimidating, elitist, and even condescending. (I'm not talking just about those who are wealthy. Those who are highly educated can be the same way.)

Many of the Nazarene pastors I have known in my life - hundreds, many of them pastoring small churches, are insecure and feel like failures a good deal of the time. Even if their churches are not small, they are often in financial situations where they are always watching every dime. In today's church environment, where a pastor is expected to be a CEO with minimal financial training, many feel terribly inadequate. (And many are themselves thousands of dollars in personal debt.)

This combination of interpersonal issues: an insecure pastor who on many days feels like a failure - and a secure, self confident person whom the world has labeled a success - in an environment where quite possibly the wealthy person could solve some of the real or perceived problems of the pastor, could lead to a mutually uncomfortable relationship.

(Perhaps I'm projecting my personal issues onto this. I have more than one 18 year old in my church who, after graduating from tech school, makes twice my salary. But I also have spent too many nights at the kitchen table of pastors listening to their frustrations to think that I am the only one.)

It is not a coincidence that the pastor you offer as a success in ministering to the wealthy was Dr. Parrott. He was not lacking in self confidence, and I think we all agree that he could have been a success in business. He certainly was a success as an administrator of a multi-million dollar university.

Mike, I was not kidding, but I certainly could have been more tactful.

I grew up in the home of a Nazarene pastor. I remember how difficult it was. We certainly lived at a lower economic level than we would have if my father had chosen another occupation. I have never resented the sacrifice.

I have observed that some pastors seem to feel that if they ask members of their congregation to sacrifice, they have to lead the way with a significal gift of their own. If they are unable to lead the way, they won't challenge the members of the congregation.

One thing about Dr. Parrott was that he had no hesitancy to approach church members with a request that they provide money for a particular need even if he wasn't prepared to give himself. He never felt the necessity to make the first donation. I know from experience that when he approched me for money he did it in a way that I felt complimented and never pressured. He would say someting like, "Dave, the Youth Department is in need of (he would describe the need). When I heard of the need, you came to my mind. Can you support this program with a donation of $500?)" I don't recall ever turning him down.

Mike, at least one statement in your post deserves a thread of its own. I will start the thread and hope you will post more on the topic -- pastors who feel insecure.

[Barb Bouldrey]

I finally took time to read this thread. How to minister to the wealthy?

Wealthy people need:
1. A pastor who preaches the truth of the Word
2. A pastor who challenges them with his/her preaching.
3. Someone to show them love and acceptance.
4. Someone who recognizes their gifts and helps them find a place to serve in the church.
5. A pastor who is there when they are hurting, troubled, ill, grieving.
6. A pastor that makes them feel a part of the church family IN SPITE of their wealth.

Also, I believe a pastor should not:
1. Depend on the leadership of the wealthy only..giving them authority in the church because of their money.
2. Accept elaborate gifts from the wealthy(or anyone else) so that a pastor then feels obligated to them.
3. Believe that the wealthy are more important to the business and spiritual areas of the church than the faithful widow on the fixed income.

We have not had wealthy people in any of our congregations, but in each congregations it was always known who the "money" people were...those with the largest incomes. They were not always, and not usually the biggest givers.

Barb

[Dave McClung]

In January, I have been asked to speak at a gathering of pastors. The topic will be something like, "How to minister to the wealthy." In my 64 years of being in the church of the Nazarene, I am aware of only one church that intentionally set out to minister to the wealthy. Wealthy individuals came in significant numbers and a lot of people who were not wealthy came too.

My question is, has your church intentionally set out to minister to the wealthy? If so, what specific things do you do? If not, why not?




I find it interesting that so far every person who has responded as if my question was about the pastor. It wasn't. It was about the church. If a church decided that its ministry was going to include ministry to some wealthy individuals the plan should start with what kind of pastor to call.

[DA Weaver]

I find it interesting that so far every person who has responded as if my question was about the pastor. It wasn't. It was about the church. If a church decided that its ministry was going to include ministry to some wealthy individuals the plan should start with what kind of pastor to call.



Dave, I'm sorry but I disagree with your statement that a church should start with what kind of a pastor to call. I tend to think the church should start with a self-exam and make sure they are willing to see the ministry through. Too often I hear great ideas, but the churches aren't willing to make the sacrifices needed for the ministry to be a success.

Just because a church makes a decision to reach a certain group of people doesn't necessarily mean a new pastor needs to be called does it? Or, were you referring to a church that was w/o a minister? I guess I was thinking a minister was already in place and that the pastor and church were trying to figure out how to minister to the wealthy.

Not only that, but I think it's important that the core of the church is on board with the decision.

Unfortunately it seems sometimes certain key individuals, leaders within the church, are not on board with the idea and aren't willing to do anything to support it. They speak negatively about the idea, and beat their drums loudly in hopes that others will hear and get in line, or there's the little hissy fits... "If the church / board does this, I'll take my tithe and leave."

It seems to me that if a church decides to begin a new ministry the church needs to be in unison on the matter. Not that that's always the case, but it seems that when there's unity there's less hindering of the H.S.'s work, and the Lord seems to really move and the ministry succeeds because everyone's united.

Just my two cents; not that they mean a whole lot...:o

[Anne and Dwayne Hood]

First, let me say-like your new picture.
Second-we have never had any experience with working with wealthy people.
Third-we know what it is like to sacrifice and set the example in giving. But, God has multiplied his blessings in material and spiritual things for us. Talmadge Johnson told me years ago, that Dwayne was the most sacrificial person he knew. But, God has richly repaid us. Our children and granchildren are Christians.

[Charles W Christian]

I can speak only from observation, but I have observed that some of the families who come to our church come for what the get. My wife teaches a children's Sunday School class. When we travel, she buys small gifts for the children in her class. The children from poor families are highly motivated by the gifts, while the children from wealthier families often leave them in the class room.

Another thing Linda does is look for opportunities for the children to be up front in the church. At least once a month, the kids say a scripture they have memorized or sign a song in the "big church." The children from wealthy families are much more motivated to perform than the children from poorer families. From that, I have concluded that certain types of programs appeal more to people with wealth than others.

Those who have run children's programs churches will testify that the fastest way to run off some families is to not give their child a speaking part in the children's musical. Mothers from poor or middle class families are less likely to be offended by such "slights" than mothers from wealthy families.




I like everything you say here, except the last paragraph.

If my children's minister came to me and said: "I'm giving the speaking part to Bobby, because his parents are rich and will likely get offended and leave, and I'm not giving it to Jimmy, because his parents are poor and feel and obligation to be here so they won't leave," I would have to pray hard about whether to fire the children's minister and then go to Bobby's parents myself and ask them to leave! Maybe I need more sanctifying grace than that, and I probably would at least pray awhile before I fired the children's minister and asked the family to consider leaving...I don't know:eek:.... No disrespect intended here....It's late, and I'm probably just grumpy. Maybe they would go with the rich family and start a new church plant, so maybe I'd be doing the kingdom a favor by multiplying ministry! .....
Just a thought....

But I'd want to do what I suggested, even if I didn't do it exactly that way....Just my $.02....

CWC

[Barb Bouldrey]

When it comes to parts in a children's program, it does not matter the wealth or poverty of the family. If someone gets offended because their darling did not get the part they wanted, that is self-centeredness. And I have seen it happen.

We have had extremely talented children who were not chosen because we just could not depend on them being there enough to practice and be ready. And parents just do not "get it."

I have seen the opposite happen....a child get a part who comes from one of the leadership families or wealthier families and then some say, "sure, they got the part. The director showed favoritism to that child because of who the parents are."

Now, I do agree that if a wealthy family or any family begins attending my church the best way to try to keep them is to get the children and teens involved in the youth programs of the church. And, of course, get mom into womeb's activities and dad into men's activities. All new people need to be made to feel as if they are a welcomed part of the family.

Barb

[John Rivas]

Hi Dave - I just read the post and went through the responses trying to judge whether or not to respond. Because you're reading this, I suppose you know which side of the coin I fell on.

We are members and minister in one of the wealthest congregations in The United Methodist Church. I live in one of the wealthest counties in the United States. That said, our church must deal with wealth in very intentional ways. Here are a few:

1) Our congregation expects excellence in everything that is promoted by the church. From the vatious worship services, to the various ministries that flow from the congregation, which at last count number over 1,500 different kinds of opportunities in and out of the church walls.

2) Our pastor meets with a very small group every Wednesday early morning for accountability, bible study and support. Those who are members are some of the most influential (and wealthy) male members of the congregation. It is amazing what has come from this small group and the way God has used them to transform lives and change hearts, including their own.

3) We have a foundation, which I sit as a trustee, as a ministry to everyone in the congregation, but targets those with assets who would want to create a legacy. We also provide seminars, long- and short-term workshops on everything from living wills and estates, debt redution and managing money/budgeting, and learning what it means to invest in a socially responsible manner.

4) We are in the midst of creating a way in which to minister to those whose values are being lost from their generation to the next and the one that follows. Statistics say that about 60% of the wealth in the US will be spent by the second generation and 90% will be lost by the grandkids. We are addressing this need for conserving values, not just valuables.

There are plenty of excellent resources (attorneys, CPA's, finanacial planners, financial advisors) for people of wealth to assist them in maintianing wealth, avoid taxes, and transfer as much as possible to their heirs. The issue that is being confronted by this new ministry is the lack of values that are not being transferred from one generation to the next. I'll let you know how it turns out, if you're interested.

There are some others but my wife is wanting me to get to the mall to spend our money :o!

John

[Dave McClung]

Dave, I'm sorry but I disagree with your statement that a church should start with what kind of a pastor to call. I tend to think the church should start with a self-exam and make sure they are willing to see the ministry through. Too often I hear great ideas, but the churches aren't willing to make the sacrifices needed for the ministry to be a success.

Just because a church makes a decision to reach a certain group of people doesn't necessarily mean a new pastor needs to be called does it? Or, were you referring to a church that was w/o a minister? I guess I was thinking a minister was already in place and that the pastor and church were trying to figure out how to minister to the wealthy.

Not only that, but I think it's important that the core of the church is on board with the decision.

Unfortunately it seems sometimes certain key individuals, leaders within the church, are not on board with the idea and aren't willing to do anything to support it. They speak negatively about the idea, and beat their drums loudly in hopes that others will hear and get in line, or there's the little hissy fits... "If the church / board does this, I'll take my tithe and leave."

It seems to me that if a church decides to begin a new ministry the church needs to be in unison on the matter. Not that that's always the case, but it seems that when there's unity there's less hindering of the H.S.'s work, and the Lord seems to really move and the ministry succeeds because everyone's united.

Just my two cents; not that they mean a whole lot...:o

I don't disagree. When I said that a church has to decide on a goal, I assumed that the congregation, or at least the board, is together on it. The point of my post was that this thread was not meant to be a critique of the performance of pastors. It was intended to be about churches.

[Dave McClung]

Talmadge Johnson told me years ago, that Dwayne was the most sacrificial person he knew.

If Dwayne is the most sacrificial person Talmadge knows, that places him in rare territory. Talmadge knows more people than anyone I know.

[Dave McClung]

..The issue that is being confronted by this new ministry is the lack of values that are not being transferred from one generation to the next. I'll let you know how it turns out, if you're interested.

There are some others but my wife is wanting me to get to the mall to spend our money :o!

John

Wonderful. Thanks for your comments. The paragraph I quoted above answers the question of what a church can do for the wealthy. There is no higher priority to the wealthy than passing on their values to their children and grandchildren. It takes more than a family .. it can't be done without a church community.

I am excited to hear that your church is being intentional about addressing this need. Please keep all of us informed.

[Paula Karr]

Our congregation expects excellence in everything that is promoted by the church. From the vatious worship services, to the various ministries that flow from the congregation, which at last count number over 1,500 different kinds of opportunities in and out of the church walls.


I, too, attend a large non-Nazarene church. It's obvious from the vehicles in the parking lots that there are a fair share of wealthy people in our church. We are not wealthy (at least not by our definition), but we do alright.

One of the reasons we love Central so much is its dedication to excellence. When we give our tithes and offerings, we know that the money is being spent on ministries, programs, and a physical plant that are valued by those who run them and serve in them. In all honesty, I can't count the number of times a soloist got up in various Nazarene churches we attended over the years and introduced their song with, "I haven't had time to practice this as much as I needed to, so please pray that God will . . . " (you can probably all finish the sentence).

At Central three years ago, it was determined about 10 days before Christmas that the scheduled special program was not going to be ready for viewing by the upcoming performance dates (I seem to recall that there were three performances scheduled). Rather than invite people in (friends and strangers alike) to see something that would not reflect our best efforts, the board and staff decided to completely cancel the programs. Signs were placed all over the campus and on the website, and announcements were made in all the services. Included in the announcements was -- kindly and unapologetically -- our church's belief that anything done in the name of the Lord needed to be done well. The programs could not be done well, so they were not done. (Parenthetically, I think a lot of soloists, musicians, and children's parents were probably disappointed -- but the program wasn't about them; it was about the Lord.) And the church continues to grow.

Our ministries are done with the same dedication to excellence. Some are local, some are international. Please feel free to check out our website at www.cccev.com. And if you're ever in the neighborhood of Mesa or Gilbert, Arizona, come on over!

[Edith K. Thurmond]

I find it interesting that so far every person who has responded as if my question was about the pastor. It wasn't. It was about the church. If a church decided that its ministry was going to include ministry to some wealthy individuals the plan should start with what kind of pastor to call.



The pastor and church should be on the same "wave length" about ministry - period. If they aren't, not much of real ministry as a church will be done that has lasting value.

Could you not include in your initial question, also, how would a church minister to those who are high-profile persons -- usually wealthy (at least "well-off") and with positions of great influence?

[John Rivas]

Paula - I will be in your neck of the woods later on next spring. I would enjoy the opportunuty of stopping by and taking a peek at your church.

John

[Paula Karr]

Paula - I will be in your neck of the woods later on next spring. I would enjoy the opportunuty of stopping by and taking a peek at your church.

John

Let me know when you know the dates; it would be our pleasure to have you visit with us!

Paula

[Wilson L. Deaton]

I find it interesting that so far every person who has responded as if my question was about the pastor. It wasn't. It was about the church. If a church decided that its ministry was going to include ministry to some wealthy individuals the plan should start with what kind of pastor to call.



My answer was about the church and not the pastor.

I repeated your question, "Does your church...?" and I answered, "No."

To the question of why not, I explained it was because I had not led the church to do so. While this heavily weights the pastor's influence, it is still a church-based answer.

(I think I am justified in saying the church is following my influence on this issue because this is a young congregation that I planted from scratch. Given that circumstance, things are still largely done "my way.")

Wilson

[Billy Cox]

He was not lacking in self confidence, and I think we all agree that he could have been a success in business.

This will sound like a rhetorical question, but that is not my intention...

Is there a pastor who most agree has taken the role of 'pastor' by storm who would *not* also have a strong chance of being successful in business?

From my point of view, leadership skills are the same whether someone is preaching salvation or selling widgets, by I am willing to listen to an alternative point of view.

[Mike Schutz]

This will sound like a rhetorical question, but that is not my intention...

Is there a pastor who most agree has taken the role of 'pastor' by storm who would *not* also have a strong chance of being successful in business?

From my point of view, leadership skills are the same whether someone is preaching salvation or selling widgets, by I am willing to listen to an alternative point of view.

Good question, and I'm not sure I have a good answer.
However, I do think that spiritual gifts are different than talents and abilities, and are given for specific use within the church.

So perhaps it is true that I will never be a great pastor for the very same reasons that I would never make a good business leader. But I am an adequate preacher and teacher - and I know that I would not be an adequate speaker for goals that were not kingdom priorities.

[Andrew Henck]

I have been thinking for a few days on the original question posted, as I've seen this discussion start and progress with new posts. I'm not completely able to articulate a clear opinion on this, however a few things have come to mind.

I'm not sure that I would feel comfortable if I was a part of a church that had a "plan/strategy/intention," either implicit or explicit, to target a specific constituency, in this case based on income. I think the role of the church is more appropriately found in the work of meeting people's needs rather than the markings of the societal "identifiers" (i.e. socioeconomic status, education, ethnicity, etc.)

Based on this thread thus far to date, I think the argument that says the "wealthy" have the opportunity and ability to "be a part of ministry" implies that they simply can drop the large tithe check in the offering plate and help their local church run each week, thus "doing their part" because of their income level. While I think tithing is an important and necessary spiritual discipline, it is not the only one that we should be participating in.

It saddens me to see churches who are centered and focused and located in predominately lower income areas, struggle financially or run on next to nothing as they seek to meet the needs of the addicted, the homeless, and the poor. The comments that were shared earlier in the thread about "churches need to minister to those that come to them" (or something like that), in my mind, support a continued and increasing gap between the "rich" and the "poor" as we know it in our communities. As we are blessed, shouldn't we be sharing our blessings throughout our lives through time, talent and treasure? I see this as an obligation that goes beyond what our income level is or what check we wrote last week, but rather something that the Church must do as it serves the holistic needs of its people.

It is my hope and prayer that the Church and its people will continue to serve the needs of people not based on what we've labeled them as members of society; but instead of how we could love them more as children of God.

"As you have done it unto the least of these my brethren, you have done it unto me." (Matthew 25:40)

[Anne and Dwayne Hood]

Being there, and showing love, for any level of income person, seems to be the best thing to do. A person might be wealthy, and still uneducated. So , why do we have to plan what type of minister we call.
Even now, with Dwayne retired, one of the counters, told me that Dwayne gives more to the church than anyone else does. She should not have told me that. We are no where near wealthy. But, on the other hanad, when Dwayne retired, the church was very stable financially.
In the early years, that we were there working with mostly young miltary people, there always seem to be a struggle, financially. Some of the people leaned more toward the leadership of a naval commander, than they did Dwayne. Once his wife and daugher, were out of town, and w