George Wallace
21st December 2007, 06:29 PM (18:29)
I have been reading the 18 December, 2007 Dennis Bratcher thread entitled Conversion of another sort. I was surprised. Surprised at many of the comments, and surprised at the parallel of Shellie Stephens Catholic conversion to what is taking place in my own life.
I’ve been a Nazarene since 1989. From 1985-1989 we attended a Free Methodist Church. So I guess you can say I’ve been a Wesleyan-Holiness Christian for about 22 years. I love the Lord!
As a SS teacher I try to be prepared. One week earlier this year the terms Calvinism or “that’s Calvinistic…” came up during some conversations unrelated to my Sunday School class, and after doing the wise thing, which is nodding in agreement and pretending I understood. I went on my merry way making a mental note to Google this Calvinism stuff. This same week I first heard R.C. Sproul’s Renewing your mind radio program. I enjoyed his teaching on Creation and looked up his Ligonier Ministries, where I found out he too was a Calvinist. So, three times during a one week period I am confronted with the fact that I ain’t got a clue about what they believe. Are they our brothers in Christ?
So I started to study what they believe, not with any desire to abandon my Nazarene convictions or out of any sense of dissatisfaction**, but because I felt like an idiot for not knowing much of anything; I studied in the vain of What Is a Nazarene? Understanding Our Place in the Religious Community ISBN 083-411-5999. I read a zillion web sites. Some sites lead a person to believe we Nazarenes (or more generically Arminians and Calvinist) are brothers in Christ with some different beliefs. Other sites affirm that they are heretics or that we are heretics. What I truly found out is, that as a rule Calvinists do a lousy job at describing what Arminians believe and Arminians are equally poor at communicating what Calvinists actually believe. No real surprise there!
Potentially parallels to Shellie’s conversion?
Well, it would take at least two Dr. Phil’s and an Oprah Primetime Special to explain all that I went through and am still going through trying to wrap my head around Calvinism and trying to compare it to what I believe as a Nazarene. Calvinists do believe in the same Gospel, they just have a different understanding of the character and sovereignty of God. They also have a different understanding of how Grace works in the mechanics of salvation. I’ve read both Why I Am Not a Calvinist ISBN 0830832491 and Why I Am Not an Arminian ISBN 0830832483 among many other books. The point is that after over seven months of study I have to be honest, for me, these Calvinists or Reformed Christians, at least those of the more conservative variety make a lot of sense.
Unlike Shellie, I believe what John MacArthur has to say. I think R. C. Sproul is probably one of the most brilliant Christian teachers you will find on Christian radio. This Reformed Faith seems correct for many reasons but probably the most influential are that their doctrine seems very sound; there is this line in the sand, here is what we believe, here is the Scripture we believe backs that up. They have the Five Solas and their Confessions of Faith (Westminster, and others) they catechize, they emphasize Family Worship. Not to be negative but is seems to me most individual Reformed believers have a much greater knowledge of Scripture and church history than the average Nazarene. They also seem to have a higher view of worship within the Lord’s Day service and appear to be much more God-Centered than Man-Centered. For these reasons and others, those of the Reformed Faith seem to be much less susceptible to false doctrine, cultural influence or change in the name relevance. Some of the things Christians (many denominations not just Nazarenes) have done in the name of being relevant are just mind boggling (1 Cor 1:18).
Those of you who use the Word Action SS curriculum know that the last half of last quarter was spent studying 2 Timothy. As one of the Pastoral Epistles 2 Timothy deals with Paul explaining to Timothy how to handle sound doctrine and how to handle those who espouse unsound doctrine. The beginning of this quarter we are studying in Matthew, chapter 11 verse 7 Jesus says “As John's disciples were leaving, Jesus began to speak to the crowd about John: ‘What did you go out into the desert to see? A reed swayed by the wind?’” One accepted understanding of the reed in the wind is that it is an illustration of something or someone easily swayed, the wishy-washy; the unsound. Obviously, that is NOT one of the characteristics of John the Baptists ministry.
I believe that many Nazarenes are easily swayed and don’t have or don’t use proper discernment. I know I’ll take some heat for this but… Why is the Emergent Movement or ‘Conversation’ being embraced by so many Nazarenes? Why is Brian McLaren speaking at both NNU and Point Loma this winter/spring? This man preaches, that which is antithetical to the one true gospel. In a Christianity Today article he states “I don’t think we’ve got the Gospel right yet…” In an internet radio http://www.wonderosity.com/?s=Mclaren interview McLaren calls the Cross a distraction and openly questions the existence of Hell. I firmly believe that this movement is the type Paul warned about in Galatians 1: “6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!
I do believe that this movement is dangerous and is leading people down the path of destruction. Most Emergent types also embrace so called Christian Mysticism and focus on Contemplative Spirituality (See Lighthouse Trails Research Project http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/contemplativespirituality.htm) I also believe that many in the movement advocate not just ecumenism but pluralism and Universalism.
This can be a topic for an additional post. The point is that in studying Calvinists and what they believe I had to take a hard look at what we Nazarenes believe. From recent studies right now I see our Church of the Nazarene as a huge 100 acre lake that is only about 6 inches deep, and we Nazarenes are all just little sailboats being blown in infinite directions. We have our 16 Articles of Faith. One would think that they would bind us tightly together in our beliefs, but in practice we are all over the place! Within the thread entitled Conversion of another sort we see that. It is scary to me that this nice sister Shellie, whom I don’t know, converts to the Roman Catholic Church and so many of “us” are okay with it? I happen to think a more appropriate reaction would be to say we love her, emphatically disagree with her choice and pray for her! Which is what I will do.
Please watch this brief video series.
http://reformationnation.wordpress.com/2007/11/06/a-comparison-between-john-macarthur-a-catholic-priest-joel-osteen-and-billy-graham/
Do some surfing and start here: http://www.oldtruth.com check out the videos and links.
What I am going to do is continue to study. I plan a deeper study of both the Reformed Faith and Wesleyan-Holiness. I see this study having two potential outcomes.
1. I am reaffirmed in my Nazarene convictions and I contend heavily for my faith as a Nazarene.
2. I come to realize that the Nazarene church is not the best “tent” from which to contend for my faith and I abandon over 20 years of intimate affinity with all things Nazarene.
For those of you still with me on this long post, I’d like to hear your thoughts.
And for you longtime Nazarenes I would like you to think back and remember some of the Preachers and preaching of old. In your mind compare that to what you may be hearing now. Then I challenge you to listen to some Outstanding Preaching and teaching.
http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?SpeakerOnly=true&currSection=sermonsspeaker&keyword=Andrew%5EQuigley (http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?SpeakerOnly=true&currSection=sermonsspeaker&keyword=Andrew%5EQuigley)
Start with the 12 part Malachi series on ‘Routine Religion’ begining on 08/26/07 and /or the 7 Part Camp Meeting series beginning 07/01/07. It seems obvious that Pastor Andrew is preaching the word with wisdom, knowledge, care and authority. A dozen years ago this Pastor had a congregation numbering in the teens and most members were elderly. Now, they are reaching about 100 and looking to move into a bigger facility. Not exactly the exponential growth of a U.S. Mega-Church, but pastor Andrew was able to preach that 12 part Routine Religion series in 6 weeks. Why? Because, most everybody that is there for the morning service is also there in evening. How many Nazarene Churches could do that? In this RPCS church most everyone is there for prayer before service, congregants are there for both morning and evening services and there are 9-10 options during the week to study the word together, plus two additional options to go deeper into theology. They’ve got moms and tots, visitation for shut-ins and much more. This Airdrie RPCS seem like a great model for all Christians and I am truly thankful for the preaching and the example. Check them out http://www.airdrierpcs.org/
Thanks Naznet for the opportunity. I also thank anybody still reading this long post!
George Wallace
Proverbs 3: 5&6
I’ve been a Nazarene since 1989. From 1985-1989 we attended a Free Methodist Church. So I guess you can say I’ve been a Wesleyan-Holiness Christian for about 22 years. I love the Lord!
As a SS teacher I try to be prepared. One week earlier this year the terms Calvinism or “that’s Calvinistic…” came up during some conversations unrelated to my Sunday School class, and after doing the wise thing, which is nodding in agreement and pretending I understood. I went on my merry way making a mental note to Google this Calvinism stuff. This same week I first heard R.C. Sproul’s Renewing your mind radio program. I enjoyed his teaching on Creation and looked up his Ligonier Ministries, where I found out he too was a Calvinist. So, three times during a one week period I am confronted with the fact that I ain’t got a clue about what they believe. Are they our brothers in Christ?
So I started to study what they believe, not with any desire to abandon my Nazarene convictions or out of any sense of dissatisfaction**, but because I felt like an idiot for not knowing much of anything; I studied in the vain of What Is a Nazarene? Understanding Our Place in the Religious Community ISBN 083-411-5999. I read a zillion web sites. Some sites lead a person to believe we Nazarenes (or more generically Arminians and Calvinist) are brothers in Christ with some different beliefs. Other sites affirm that they are heretics or that we are heretics. What I truly found out is, that as a rule Calvinists do a lousy job at describing what Arminians believe and Arminians are equally poor at communicating what Calvinists actually believe. No real surprise there!
Potentially parallels to Shellie’s conversion?
Well, it would take at least two Dr. Phil’s and an Oprah Primetime Special to explain all that I went through and am still going through trying to wrap my head around Calvinism and trying to compare it to what I believe as a Nazarene. Calvinists do believe in the same Gospel, they just have a different understanding of the character and sovereignty of God. They also have a different understanding of how Grace works in the mechanics of salvation. I’ve read both Why I Am Not a Calvinist ISBN 0830832491 and Why I Am Not an Arminian ISBN 0830832483 among many other books. The point is that after over seven months of study I have to be honest, for me, these Calvinists or Reformed Christians, at least those of the more conservative variety make a lot of sense.
Unlike Shellie, I believe what John MacArthur has to say. I think R. C. Sproul is probably one of the most brilliant Christian teachers you will find on Christian radio. This Reformed Faith seems correct for many reasons but probably the most influential are that their doctrine seems very sound; there is this line in the sand, here is what we believe, here is the Scripture we believe backs that up. They have the Five Solas and their Confessions of Faith (Westminster, and others) they catechize, they emphasize Family Worship. Not to be negative but is seems to me most individual Reformed believers have a much greater knowledge of Scripture and church history than the average Nazarene. They also seem to have a higher view of worship within the Lord’s Day service and appear to be much more God-Centered than Man-Centered. For these reasons and others, those of the Reformed Faith seem to be much less susceptible to false doctrine, cultural influence or change in the name relevance. Some of the things Christians (many denominations not just Nazarenes) have done in the name of being relevant are just mind boggling (1 Cor 1:18).
Those of you who use the Word Action SS curriculum know that the last half of last quarter was spent studying 2 Timothy. As one of the Pastoral Epistles 2 Timothy deals with Paul explaining to Timothy how to handle sound doctrine and how to handle those who espouse unsound doctrine. The beginning of this quarter we are studying in Matthew, chapter 11 verse 7 Jesus says “As John's disciples were leaving, Jesus began to speak to the crowd about John: ‘What did you go out into the desert to see? A reed swayed by the wind?’” One accepted understanding of the reed in the wind is that it is an illustration of something or someone easily swayed, the wishy-washy; the unsound. Obviously, that is NOT one of the characteristics of John the Baptists ministry.
I believe that many Nazarenes are easily swayed and don’t have or don’t use proper discernment. I know I’ll take some heat for this but… Why is the Emergent Movement or ‘Conversation’ being embraced by so many Nazarenes? Why is Brian McLaren speaking at both NNU and Point Loma this winter/spring? This man preaches, that which is antithetical to the one true gospel. In a Christianity Today article he states “I don’t think we’ve got the Gospel right yet…” In an internet radio http://www.wonderosity.com/?s=Mclaren interview McLaren calls the Cross a distraction and openly questions the existence of Hell. I firmly believe that this movement is the type Paul warned about in Galatians 1: “6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!
I do believe that this movement is dangerous and is leading people down the path of destruction. Most Emergent types also embrace so called Christian Mysticism and focus on Contemplative Spirituality (See Lighthouse Trails Research Project http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/contemplativespirituality.htm) I also believe that many in the movement advocate not just ecumenism but pluralism and Universalism.
This can be a topic for an additional post. The point is that in studying Calvinists and what they believe I had to take a hard look at what we Nazarenes believe. From recent studies right now I see our Church of the Nazarene as a huge 100 acre lake that is only about 6 inches deep, and we Nazarenes are all just little sailboats being blown in infinite directions. We have our 16 Articles of Faith. One would think that they would bind us tightly together in our beliefs, but in practice we are all over the place! Within the thread entitled Conversion of another sort we see that. It is scary to me that this nice sister Shellie, whom I don’t know, converts to the Roman Catholic Church and so many of “us” are okay with it? I happen to think a more appropriate reaction would be to say we love her, emphatically disagree with her choice and pray for her! Which is what I will do.
Please watch this brief video series.
http://reformationnation.wordpress.com/2007/11/06/a-comparison-between-john-macarthur-a-catholic-priest-joel-osteen-and-billy-graham/
Do some surfing and start here: http://www.oldtruth.com check out the videos and links.
What I am going to do is continue to study. I plan a deeper study of both the Reformed Faith and Wesleyan-Holiness. I see this study having two potential outcomes.
1. I am reaffirmed in my Nazarene convictions and I contend heavily for my faith as a Nazarene.
2. I come to realize that the Nazarene church is not the best “tent” from which to contend for my faith and I abandon over 20 years of intimate affinity with all things Nazarene.
For those of you still with me on this long post, I’d like to hear your thoughts.
And for you longtime Nazarenes I would like you to think back and remember some of the Preachers and preaching of old. In your mind compare that to what you may be hearing now. Then I challenge you to listen to some Outstanding Preaching and teaching.
http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?SpeakerOnly=true&currSection=sermonsspeaker&keyword=Andrew%5EQuigley (http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?SpeakerOnly=true&currSection=sermonsspeaker&keyword=Andrew%5EQuigley)
Start with the 12 part Malachi series on ‘Routine Religion’ begining on 08/26/07 and /or the 7 Part Camp Meeting series beginning 07/01/07. It seems obvious that Pastor Andrew is preaching the word with wisdom, knowledge, care and authority. A dozen years ago this Pastor had a congregation numbering in the teens and most members were elderly. Now, they are reaching about 100 and looking to move into a bigger facility. Not exactly the exponential growth of a U.S. Mega-Church, but pastor Andrew was able to preach that 12 part Routine Religion series in 6 weeks. Why? Because, most everybody that is there for the morning service is also there in evening. How many Nazarene Churches could do that? In this RPCS church most everyone is there for prayer before service, congregants are there for both morning and evening services and there are 9-10 options during the week to study the word together, plus two additional options to go deeper into theology. They’ve got moms and tots, visitation for shut-ins and much more. This Airdrie RPCS seem like a great model for all Christians and I am truly thankful for the preaching and the example. Check them out http://www.airdrierpcs.org/
Thanks Naznet for the opportunity. I also thank anybody still reading this long post!
George Wallace
Proverbs 3: 5&6