Praying With Authority!

[Ian Gentles]

What is it to pray with authority, whether it be for the sick, or any of many other spiritual matters? We seem to pray more the "pleaders prayer" that is "Pleas God if this could be Your will" etc. I am not saying this is wrong but i dont think I have heard many prayers of authority, "In Jesus name rise up and walk" for instance. As we fight against principalities and powers of wickedness surely we do need to see a greater power, "God's" , comming against them. In ourselfs we struggle, and often fail, are discouraged, the enemy seems so powerefull. So what is it to pray with authority?


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[Hans Deventer]

Ian, you may want to check Steve's post here: http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php?p=156231#post156231

[Ian Gentles]

Hans i read Steves with interest and wish to know more about what he was commenting on. I also feel the prayer of authority must relate to spiritual issues as we fight the inner darkness in our midst. I feel like crying, "How dare Saten bind so many of God's beloved children, set them free!", but i havent that authority and my words would be just that, words! Yet, from what i gather God has given His church spiritual authority in Jesus name, I just wonder if we doubt this? How does it work? Do we have that authority today?

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[John Kennedy]

Pardon me, but I'm not sure what is meant by 'praying with authority'. At least from my perspective on prayer, when I pray I'm approaching someone with authority. I certainly don't have the authority. I make my prayer in "Jesus' name", but I'm surely not in any kind of position to tell God what to do.

That phrase is one I've heard used a lot by people whose idea of prayer is confronting God with a set of non-negotiable demands. If I have enough authority to 'pray with authority' I probably don't need to pray at all. When I hear people prefacing their prayers by saying they're going to 'bind' this, that, or the other force, I try to leave as inconspicuously as possible. That simply isn't the way I approach God.

There are a lot of things that I wish God would do or would prevent, but I seriously doubt that my 'praying with authority' is going to bring that about. God is the authority - I'm the one with the need.

I realize that this came up in the context of healing. I certainly don't want to doubt God's ability to heal. I have seen it happen. But, God is the one who does the healing according to his will. Neither I, nor anyone else, is in any position to dictate to him. I have absolutely NO desire to pray with authority. I want to pray with humility and confidence that my prayer is heard and if my petition is in line with God's will, it will be granted.

Sorry, if I've come aross too strongly on this. I've seen this attitude bring too much harm, both to the person purportedly 'praying with authority' and to the ones who accepted their claims.

[Steven Martinez]

John,
I think your motives are pure and your question fair. What I mean by praying with authority is not the emotional power of my prayer but rather using the authority that God has given us as His children. Praying with authority is praying in confidence that what we pray for will be given because our motives are pure. Look at Elijah's prayer in 1 Kings 17:19-22. He prays for the boy to be raised. When we pray we are participating in an act of faith. When Jesus tells us to pray "Give us this day our daily bread." Where is the please? Where is the "if it is ok with you?" Where is the "if it is your will?" As believers filled with the Holy Spirit, we have to trust that the authority given to us is by God and therefore act accordingly. Is it wrong if I pray "Lord, I desire for you to heal (blank) from (Blank)."? I do not think so.
I am reminded with Scripture (Psalm 34 for example) that if I walk with God, my motives become transformed into His motives and therefore I pray and act not in my own will but the will of God. I discover more and more that Praying with authority has very little with what I say to God rather than how I act according to His Spirit. For example I have been challenging some of my friends in the church to pray with authority by actually praying with people instead of just telling people "I'll pray for you."
So if someone calls me and says, I need prayer, then I pray right there.
Remember what Jesus tells His disciples in Matt. 21:22 "And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive." What is my responsibility in this prayer? It is to ask, pray and believe. God will give when He decides to give. However, I can take charge in praying and believing. Therefore I take authority over those issues and do not worry about the things that I have no control over.

[Barbara Moulton]

When Jesus tells us to pray "Give us this day our daily bread." Where is the please? Where is the "if it is ok with you?" Where is the "if it is your will?"

But my friend, the whole prayer from which that phrase is taken begins with a plea that God's will be done.

I am trying to reconcile two thoughts you seem to present.

1. God gives us the authority to pray for healing, without the idea of "if it is your will" coming in.

2. You only pray for healing for those for whom the spirit guides you.

Isn't the second just a way of saying that you only pray for those for whom it is God's will to heal?

Would your opinion be that not one of the hundreds of people who prayed for the healing of our brother Brad had the transformed motives which are necessary to pray with authority?

Have you ever prayed in this way for someone who was not healed?

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions. I really am trying to understand your testimony.

Blessings,
Barbara

[Steven Martinez]

But my friend, the whole prayer from which that phrase is taken begins with a plea that God's will be done.

I am trying to reconcile two thoughts you seem to present.

1. God gives us the authority to pray for healing, without the idea of "if it is your will" coming in.

2. You only pray for healing for those for whom the spirit guides you.

Isn't the second just a way of saying that you only pray for those for whom it is God's will to heal?

Would your opinion be that not one of the hundreds of people who prayed for the healing of our brother Brad had the transformed motives which are necessary to pray with authority?

Have you ever prayed in this way for someone who was not healed?

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions. I really am trying to understand your testimony.

Blessings,
Barbara

No problem.
You are exactly right! Since we know what God's will is in regards to daily bread we can ask for it boldly without worry that God will provide. Therefore we live boldly in regards to living in the will of God. However, healing is more difficult in aproaching because we do not know God's will in regards to whom He heals and those whom He heals completly. Our friend Brad understands this better than all of us right now! Praise God. As far as the gift of healing, those are specific times and circumstances that I cannot explain because they are God's to direct.
I am not suggesting that we work outside of God's will. Praying with authority is praying when God reveals His will to us rather than praying to reveal His will. For example, a dear saint in our church lost her daughter this week to cancer. Did I pray for her? Yes. Did I pray for her healing? Not in the way of using my spiritual gift. Why? Because God choose not to lead me in that way because, I assume, He wanted to heal her completly and remove her from this world and into His Kingdom. If God had led me than I would see her, annoit her and dare I say, expect God to heal her of cancer.
Praying in authority can only happen when God reveals His will to us. Therefore I will never say that I allways pray this way because sometimes I need to pray that I am in the will of God. I am sure that there were some who prayed for Brad to pass as easily as possible and to meet his God in hope, peace, joy and love. Maybe that was God's will all along. I do not know. I do know that when my friend passed away almost two years ago that I visted his hospital bed and prayed with him and some friends for God to take His faithful servant home. We all shedded some tears and felt complete peace. Two days later he died in his sleep. God answered our prayer.
As I said before, God has never directed me to pray this way and the prayer not answered.
The point I am trying to make is this. Many of us pray with doubt, including myself. Often when I find myself praying something like "If it is you will God, please do so and so" that I am leaving an "out" for God. In reality, I am leaving an "out" for my faith... or lack there of. When I do not know God's will I pray, and Pray with boldness and authority that He will reveal His will to me.

[David Parker]

When Jesus tells us to pray "Give us this day our daily bread." Where is the please? Where is the "if it is ok with you?" Where is the "if it is your will?" As believers filled with the Holy Spirit, we have to trust that the authority given to us is by God and therefore act accordingly. Is it wrong if I pray "Lord, I desire for you to heal (blank) from (Blank)."? I do not think so.

I think all sincere believers struggle with this. I wonder how much of our reticence to "pray believing" is due to cultural trappings of deference and politeness.

Having heard many lessons on the Lord's Prayer, I rarely hear consideration of the parable He shares immediately after the suggested prayer. It's simple to dilute the power of the summary verses (Luke 11:9-13) (http://nasb.scripturetext.com/luke/11.htm) as perhaps generalizations or at the very least "He couldn't have meant what it sounds like He is saying..." If we really believed what we read, that knowledge and confidence would certainly sound like 'authority'. But in any case, what about the parable?

Then He said to them, “Suppose one of you has a friend, and goes to him at midnight and says to him, ‘Friend, lend me three loaves; for a friend of mine has come to me from a journey, and I have nothing to set before him’; and from inside he answers and says, ‘Do not bother me; the door has already been shut and my children and I are in bed; I cannot get up and give you anything.’ “I tell you, even though he will not get up and give him anything because he is his friend, yet because of his persistence he will get up and give him as much as he needs. Luke 11:5-8 (http://nasb.scripturetext.com/luke/11.htm)

This was the parable that Christ chose to demonstrate "how to pray". Check out the various renderings of Luke 11:8 (http://bible.cc/luke/11-8.htm). Note the word translated persistence in the NASB. It's shamelessness in Darby and importunity in many.

The friend that had retired for the day first responds "do not bother me..." but because of the shameless persistence of the petitioner, he relents and provides "as much as he needs". Seems clear to me how "we should pray".

What about the Canaanite women in Matthew 15:21-28 (http://nasb.scripturetext.com/matthew/15.htm)? Christ wasn't exactly polite, was He? He only dealt with her because the disciples were irritated by her yelling and complained to Him. He rejects her verbally twice yet she refused to give up and argued with Him using the "even the dogs feed on crumbs" rebuttal. At this, He healed her daughter because her "faith is great".

Would we keep banging on the door at night after getting rejected? Would we persist with Him after multiple rejections and argue our need? There are other Gospel accounts of similar persistence. Perhaps we all are much too 'polite' when we petition God.

[Ian Gentles]

That is an interesting approach to subject of prayer. It leaves me asking, why some praying is so hard? And why some praying is easy? I must confess to praying long and hard for some matters, I beleive are in God's will. but receive nothing!

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[Hans Deventer]

When I am trying to make sense of all that has been said here so far, I see the following:


The gift of healing is still there. Thank God!


It is not something one has all the time, it has to do with a special direction from God to pray in a specific circumstance. With that direction, one can pray with confidence. That seems to align with the Scriptures. I am reminded of what Brad wrote about his mother. It fits what he told us about her.


God still wants our prayers, and encourages us to pray persistently, even if we're not sure about what He's going to do. That doesn't stop Him from doing a miracle (See Acts 12, the disciples must have prayed for James, but he was killed all the same. They still kept praying for Peter but were astonished God actually freed him)

[Hans Deventer]

That is an interesting approach to subject of prayer. It leaves me asking, why some praying is so hard? And why some praying is easy? I must confess to praying long and hard for some matters, I believe are in God's will. but receive nothing!

I have prayed for Brad, but I can't say I received nothing. What exactly do you expect to receive? Sometimes we can be so focussed on one thing, that we don't see what God wants to give us in another area.

[Ian Gentles]

When I am trying to make sense of all that has been said here so far, I see the following:


The gift of healing is still there. Thank God!


It is not something one has all the time, it has to do with a special direction from God to pray in a specific circumstance. With that direction, one can pray with confidence. That seems to align with the Scriptures. I am reminded of what Brad wrote about his mother. It fits what he told us about her.


God still wants our prayers, and encourages us to pray persistently, even if we're not sure about what He's going to do. That doesn't stop Him from doing a miracle (See Acts 12, the disciples must have prayed for James, but he was killed all the same. They still kept praying for Peter but were astonished God actually freed him)


Yes i beleive the gift, from God, of healing is still with us. Being the misery that i am, I just wish it happened more!

Like many christians, if we can be honest, I find prayer a bit depressing, it seems a chore, oh i do it much, that sees very few answers regaurds what we are praying for!

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[Ian Gentles]

I have prayed for Brad, but I can't say I received nothing. What exactly do you expect to receive? Sometimes we can be so focussed on one thing, that we don't see what God wants to give us in another area.

Yes Hans indeed, we all received the miracle of love in our many prayers for Brad.

However, I still think we pray much for things we never receive in answer to our prayers. Surely God instructs us to believe when we pray? Many find this hard, or confusing, in that they see little of what they petition for?

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[Hans Deventer]

However, I still think we pray much for things we never receive in answer to our prayers. Surely God instructs us to believe when we pray?

Yes. But so far, I have never in my life been able to pray with the certainty of what God would be going to do. It seems He'll have to give it to me before I can do that.

Many find this hard, or confusing, in that they see little of what they petition for?

It is hard and it is confusing. That's why our biggest challenge is to keep believing that God actually does love us.

Added: Just think of the Jews! How can one be a Jew today and believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, after 6 million of your people have been murdered in WW2? Where was God in Auschwitz? If our faith can't deal with issues like these, what is faith? It's the evidence of things not seen, right? Well, there's lots we don't see!

[Ian Gentles]

Yes agree. I just see so much encouragment to pray positivly in Scriptures, and yes very confussed that scripture and our experiance dont seem to match.

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[Hans Deventer]

Yes agree. I just see so much encouragment to pray positivly in Scriptures, and yes very confussed that scripture and our experiance dont seem to match.

Well, the people of Israel called to God for several centuries before He sent Moses. And if we read the Psalms, I see a lot of experience in the Scriptures that match mine. So at least part of the Scriptures agree. Which means we have to figure out what Jesus really meant. After all, His trust in God led Him to the cross. "He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering." I do sometimes wonder if we truly realise that if we want to follow Jesus, this is the Messiah we'll get to follow.

[Ian Gentles]

Well, the people of Israel called to God for several centuries before He sent Moses. And if we read the Psalms, I see a lot of experience in the Scriptures that match mine. So at least part of the Scriptures agree. Which means we have to figure out what Jesus really meant. After all, His trust in God led Him to the cross. "He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering." I do sometimes wonder if we truly realise that if we want to follow Jesus, this is the Messiah we'll get to follow.

Yes we really aren't a people who are in anyway suffering directly because of our faith in Christ. I actually sometimes wonder if persecution would be better for us? I can imagine an up side to it, fellowship and prayer would become far more serious!
The struggles we have in west today are in our thinking, we know there is more, but we haven't got it! I think this is seen clearly in our threads on prayer, we know something more should be happening, this isn't wishful thinking but a sure conviction!
What is God saying to us through all this? I am not totally sure, but feel He is trying to point out to us our spiritual Bareness!

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[Barbara Moulton]

Yes we really aren't a people who are in anyway suffering directly because of our faith in Christ. I actually sometimes wonder if persecution would be better for us? I can imagine an up side to it, fellowship and prayer would become far more serious!
The struggles we have in west today are in our thinking, we know there is more, but we haven't got it! I think this is seen clearly in our threads on prayer, we know something more should be happening, this isn't wishful thinking but a sure conviction!
What is God saying to us through all this? I am not totally sure, but feel He is trying to point out to us our spiritual Bareness!

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I think it is ironic. The first century Christians prayed greatly I am sure for delivery from persecution. Those prayers were not answered in their lifetime. We are living the reality of their answered prayer yet we wish to live in that world again?

Maybe all the miracles of that time had nothing to do with them having more authority in their prayers and everything to do with God's understanding that they needed the encouragement of miracles as a sign of His presence in their circumstances.

The prayers of one first century Christian (Paul) were written in the Epistles and they don't seem to reflect a desire for miracles. They are all about love, joy, insight, understanding and living up to the true hope of our calling. I've always been enraptured with Paul's prayers and maybe that's had more of an influence on me than I thought.

I am not a first century Christian. I am a 21st century Christian. If you could transplant one of those earlier persecuted believers into our world what would they say?

"Dude, you are living the answer to all that prayed I for. What a blessed person you are."

For the record, I don't feel spiritually barren. And the more I pray Paul's prayers, the more blessed I feel.

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

Know what, I was just thinking that after I have prayed, I'd much rather have someone say I "prayed with humility" rather than I "prayed with authority."

[Ian Gentles]

OK Barnbara really don't disagree. But stories from persecuted christians are so inspiring. Hans originaly mentioned we follow Him who was crucified I do think we have a flabby Christianity that isn't often tested!

[Barbara Moulton]

OK Barnbara really don't disagree. But stories from persecuted christians are so inspiring. Hans originaly mentioned we follow Him who was crucified I do think we have a flabby Christianity that isn't often tested!

My Christian faith got tested this morning, singing Christmas carols with people who are undergoing chemotherapy. Not the test of persecution but a test.

I just don't think we should look back on the early Christian era with longing eyes, thinking that if we could somehow transport ourselves back our faith would be stronger and our prayers would be more effective.

We can't go back. We live today. Our faith must be a faith that works in today's realities.

I must be weird. I truly am a content (but not complacent) Christian.

[Steven Martinez]

Know what, I was just thinking that after I have prayed, I'd much rather have someone say I "prayed with humility" rather than I "prayed with authority."

Why do they have to mutually exclusive? The problem seems to me that people have negative conotations with the word "authority." When one uses their given authority for the benift of others that is service which is a sign of humility is it not?

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

Why do they have to mutually exclusive? The problem seems to me that people have negative conotations with the word "authority." When one uses their given authority for the benift of others that is service which is a sign of humility is it not?

Steven, could you please point out to me where I said they were mutually exclusive?

I think you will find that I simply stated my preference concerning my public prayers.

[Steven Martinez]

Steven, could you please point out to me where I said they were mutually exclusive?

I think you will find that I simply stated my preference concerning my public prayers.

You stated your preference in a comparison of two ideas. Since you used the word "rather," one could conclude by this statement that they could not coexist. That is why I asked the question to seek your clarification. Is it possible for our prayers to be given with authority as well as humilty? Personally, I think that every aspect of authority in a Christian's life needs to be exercised with humility.
Merry Christmas

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

You stated your preference in a comparison of two ideas. Since you used the word "rather," one could conclude by this statement that they could not coexist. That is why I asked the question to seek your clarification. Is it possible for our prayers to be given with authority as well as humilty? Personally, I think that every aspect of authority in a Christian's life needs to be exercised with humility.
Merry Christmas

Let's see --
You and I go out for a hamburger together and the waiter asks, "Do you want ketchup or mustard on your burger?"
You reply, "I much rather have ketchup"
I then tell everyone: "Steven thinks a person can't have both ketchup and mustard on a hamburger"After all, you did say "much rather" so I can conclude from that statement that you think they can't coexist on the same burger. Right?

Of course not.

I make the observation that I prefer people see my prayers as humble prayers rather than authoritative and you leap to the idea that I am saying you can't have both ketchup and mustard on the burger.

It is you who brought up the mutually exclusive stuff, not me.

[Hans Deventer]

Know what, I was just thinking that after I have prayed, I'd much rather have someone say I "prayed with humility" rather than I "prayed with authority."

Scott, I have to admit I understand Steven's reaction. I much prefer hearing about the love of Christ over hearing about the cross I have to bear if I want to follow Him. But we need both. So I wonder, what did you want to communicate with the statement? For I initially read it much like Steven did.

[Ian Gentles]

What would people consider is the authority that Christians are to have? If we are without any authority in spiritual realm what have we got? Surely for instance we use authority when we lead a person to Christ and pray for them? I find the idea of children of God without any authority a strange one. Arent we adopted sons and daughters of God, in His Kingdom ? Surely if this is so some authority comes with such a position?

[Hans Deventer]

What would people consider is the authority that Christians are to have? If we are without any authority in spiritual realm what have we got? Surely for instance we use authority when we lead a person to Christ and pray for them? I find the idea of children of God without any authority a strange one. Arent we adopted sons and daughters of God, in His Kingdom ? Surely if this is so some authority comes with such a position?

I've been thinking about this, especially because of the discussions of the gift of healing. I think we'd all agree that it is God who heals, not us. So the gift would most of all be a special gift of knowledge of what God is about to do. It's probably one of Jesus' main points in the gospel of John: the unity between Him and the Father, and Him doing the work of the Father. Apparently, without a doubt (John 11:41).

So the authority derives from knowing what God is about to do.

Throughout the Scriptures, we see that people have had insight in this. Rarely continuously, mostly by way of revelation. It seems to me the gift of prophecy is strongly related to this as well.

My take is that there are two aspects here: the quality of our relationship with God on the one hand (faith), and a specific divine revelation on the other.

What do you think?

[Ian Gentles]

True, but surely in some things we already know God's will? For instance in praying for release from spiritual bondage?

[Hans Deventer]

True, but surely in some things we already know God's will? For instance in praying for release from spiritual bondage?

Yes, but do we also know WHEN He wants to do something about that? I think that's the key.

God doesn't want sickness. That much is clear to me. One day, He'll do something about that, and something that will end all sickness. However, I don't have a clue about when. Not even Jesus knew. But He did know what God wanted to do the next moment.

[Ian Gentles]

Yes we do wonder the great question, Why if Gods hates suffering He allows it?
However, we must have some sort of authority? Jesus makes the prayer thing, in His instructions to us seem so easy "If two are agreed" etc. In prayer there has to be some form of authority in Jesus name? What it is I am not quite sure, but that its there I am certain. For instance, does God mean for Saten to bind His children?

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

Scott, I have to admit I understand Steven's reaction. I much prefer hearing about the love of Christ over hearing about the cross I have to bear if I want to follow Him. But we need both. So I wonder, what did you want to communicate with the statement? For I initially read it much like Steven did.

If someone says, "What authority he has in prayer!" I get the picture of a person who orders demons around and commands the sick to be well. At the extreme I see a person who quotes scriptures to the Lord telling him what the Lord must do in some situation.

If someone says, "What humbleness he has in prayer!" I get a picture of a person who comes to the foot of the cross to bow down and worship, who hungers for a more intimate relationship with the Lord. I also think of the prayer of the publican: "Lord have mercy on me, a sinner."

The second is what I long for. If, in that prayer, the Lord directs in some specific way, that's wonderful.

[Ian Gentles]

I wasn't thinking that we have any authority of our selfs but in His kingdom. Do we preach and evangelize in His authority? Cant we therefore unbind the bound?

[Hans Deventer]

If someone says, "What authority he has in prayer!" I get the picture of a person who orders demons around and commands the sick to be well. At the extreme I see a person who quotes scriptures to the Lord telling him what the Lord must do in some situation.

But that is a very negative image. I don't think that is anything of what the Lord had in mind.
Which begs the question if your statement does not originate from extreme abuse of the idea of authority in prayer rather than what the Bible tells about it.

I myself wonder if our humbleness isn't a subtle way to evade what God has in mind for us regarding prayer. Reminds me of Wesley's sermon "On Working Out Our Own Salvation":

We must beware of that mock humility which teacheth us to say, in excuse for our wilful disobedience, "O, I can do nothing!" and stops there, without once naming the grace of God. Pray, think twice. Consider what you say. I hope you wrong yourself; for if it be really true that you can do nothing, then you have no faith. And if you have not faith, you are in a wretched condition: You are not in a state of salvation. Surely it is not so. You can do something, through Christ strengthening you. Stir up the spark of grace which is now in you, and he will give you more grace.

I am NOT saying you are there, Scott!!! But I am saying there can be danger in humble prayer. That is also an extreme, but I think we're closer to that one than the other.

The Lord said that if we have faith, we can move mountains and He actually rebuked his disciples for lack of it.

There seems to be a very thin line to walk here. To have the proper authority and the proper humbleness. I'm not going to prefer the one over the other. I think God intended for us to have both.

[Ian Gentles]

Humility yes, we petition a great God, but surely also boldness as children of a great God? Dosent God give His children His Spirit, indwells them? If we Have God within us, we within reason are recipients of Almighty power! Now, not for a moment saying we can be like Jesus, but again don't think He meant us to be powerless, in His will!

[Bob Carabbio]

We routinely close our prayers with "In Jesus' Name" - which simply MEANS:

"With the authority that Jesus' name possesses".

But very few of us seem to have any concept of what that authority is, and whether or NOT we have been delegated the right to exercise it.

Thinking of the story of the Centurion and his sick servant -

When I go down to my local friendly machine rigger, I tell Him "in the name of Bailey Tool" to unload and erect the press I've just bought. It'll cost several thousand dollars (last one ran almost $18K). And I don't possess that kind of discretionary ca$h personally.

BUT - I'm the chief engineer for Bailey, and I'm a "man under authority" - and as a result I HAVE "authority" befitting my position - AS LONG AS I use that authority to do things which are "in the will" of Bailey tool.

SO when I speak, it isn't ME speaking, but the authorized representative of a $40 mil company who's authorizing the work.

And I don't have to HOPE that I have the authority - I KNOW what my authority in my position is.

And Jesus KNEW what HIS authority was - and the centurion recognized that it was similar (functionally) to HIS authority as a centurion under authority to Rome. so he says: "speak the word, Jesus, and my servant will be just fine, I know how this authority thing works".

I know what MY authority is because of my "Communion" with the "powers that be" at Bailey, and as I grow in "stature" with them, they entrust me with increasing discretionary authority.

Gut feel is that our consciousness of OUR authority in "Jesus name" is also directly related to the communion that we have with HIM, and the degree to which we REALLY place ourselves under HIS "authority", and commit to HIS purposes instead of our own.

[Ian Gentles]

I like the illustration you give about being the Cheif Engineer. I was also thinking about those in military with rank, juniors obey them in dangerous situation because they know they have been given that authority. So i have to wonder in the spiritual realm why is it we dont seem able to use that authority? I am not necessarily thinking of great miracles, but they could be included, as much as authority in normal spiritual warfare. Many Christians are living in defeat, or maybe some spiritual bondage (not talking demons here), and we dont seem to be affective in prayer in regards these matters.

[Randy Wise]

My thoughts
God is a mighty God who owes me nothing. I consider myself His servant and thus in prayer I would being asking for mercy not demanding action. Even Jesus asked with reverence and submission. I tend to follow His example.

Randy

[Ian Gentles]

My thoughts
God is a mighty God who owes me nothing. I consider myself His servant and thus in prayer I would being asking for mercy not demanding action. Even Jesus asked with reverence and submission. I tend to follow His example.

Randy

Hans did bring up, in another thread, interesting point that Jesus commanded the illness to be healed, as did the apostle with lame man, "Rise up and walk". However my thinking here hasn't been in regards to such miracles as much as everyday praying in spiritual warfare.

[Barbara Moulton]

The second is what I long for. If, in that prayer, the Lord directs in some specific way, that's wonderful.

My longing too Scott.

Blessings,
Barbara

[Hans Deventer]

My thoughts
God is a mighty God who owes me nothing. I consider myself His servant and thus in prayer I would being asking for mercy not demanding action.

You don't understand what we are trying to say. It is not about demanding action, it is about knowing God will act. A vast difference.

Even Jesus asked with reverence and submission.

No, He did not. He knew. Show me one verse where Jesus asked God to heal someone "with reverence and submission".

[Randy Wise]

You don't understand what we are trying to say. It is not about demanding action, it is about knowing God will act. A vast difference.

I guess I don't understand you, because I see different in what you are trying to do. Keep me updated when you reach your secret formula because it seems self evident to me God hasn't been performing the miracles in regard to healing as history has shown many Christians being prayed for and many christians still passing away. I don't see fault with our prayers. That leaves me with a "not in the manner you ask"




No, He did not. He knew. Show me one verse where Jesus asked God to heal someone "with reverence and submission".

Why would asking for healing require any less reverence. I wrote in regard to Jesus's style of prayer, which doesn't go into detail about what He prayed about. Hebrews 5:7 John 11:41 does suggest some previous prayer with the Father. However Jesus commanded the storm to be still. There must be something special about this man. It was also noted in that time period certain people who had been associated with Jesus also performed miracles. It seems somebody Great was really promoting His message.

Randy

[Ian Gentles]

Sorry Jesus spoke and it was done

[Randy Wise]

Sorry Jesus spoke and it was done

I'll bet Jesus can still do that. When you can let me know as there are a lot of sick people. CNN might show up and the crowds will be problem.
Randy

[Ian Gentles]

I wasn't talking neccesaraly about sick people, check my posts!

[Randy Wise]

I wasn't talking neccesaraly about sick people, check my posts!
Ok, but your first post strongly suggests healing.

Take care
Randy

[Barbara Moulton]

You don't understand what we are trying to say. It is not about demanding action, it is about knowing God will act. A vast difference".

I know that God will act. But I won't tell Him how to act.

No, He did not. He knew. Show me one verse where Jesus asked God to heal someone "with reverence and submission".

It seems to me that Jesus lived His whole life in submission to God. He healed in all sorts of ways. Sometimes just touching someone. Somtimes speaking softly. Sometimes long distance. But inherent in every act of healing He did was a submission to the Father's will and certainly His attitude was always one of reverence for God.

John 5:30

[Hans Deventer]

I know that God will act. But I won't tell Him how to act.

Nobody is. I am getting a little frustrated with how this thread is going. Let's get this one out of the way once and for all, please. Nobody, and I repeat, nobody is telling God what to do. Jesus didn't, the apostles didn't, and anyone who thinks he can is dead wrong. Ok, can we put this aside now? Praying with authority isn't about telling God what to do, it is about knowing what God will do by His own sovereign will.

It seems to me that Jesus lived His whole life in submission to God. He healed in all sorts of ways. Sometimes just touching someone. Somtimes speaking softly. Sometimes long distance. But inherent in every act of healing He did was a submission to the Father's will and certainly His attitude was always one of reverence for God.

Barbara, please! Am I so hard to understand? Let me explain again.

The issue is NOT the way Jesus lived. Of course His life was in submission to God. I don't think anyone in his/her sane mind would deny that. The issue is that when healing someone, He never asked God if God would be willing to do that. There simply is no Scripture that says He prayed like that in the case of healing someone, and that is what I am trying to say. He simply knew what God was about to do. Which meant indeed that the way He healed didn't matter, whether it was simply a word, a touch, long distance, whatever. But it was never a prayer asking God to heal! Neither did Peter and John at the beginning of Acts 3. But that is what WE are doing all the time. How come?

[Hans Deventer]

I guess I don't understand you

On that point we can agree completely.

because I see different in what you are trying to do. Keep me updated when you reach your secret formula

Come on, Randy, you know much more about the Scriptures and God than to suggest this. Secret formulas are idolarity and manipulation. God never works that way. And for the 3rd time, I don't like your sarcasm.

because it seems self evident to me God hasn't been performing the miracles in regard to healing as history has shown many Christians being prayed for and many christians still passing away. I don't see fault with our prayers. That leaves me with a "not in the manner you ask".

If you see no difference in the way Jesus and the apostles healed, and the way we pray, I have nothing else to say.



I wrote in regard to Jesus's style of prayer, which doesn't go into detail about what He prayed about. Hebrews 5:7 John 11:41 does suggest some previous prayer with the Father.

Some? SOME? If anything, it must have been a relation with the Father that was continuous prayer. That at least.

However Jesus commanded the storm to be still. There must be something special about this man. It was also noted in that time period certain people who had been associated with Jesus also performed miracles. It seems somebody Great was really promoting His message.

"People associated with Jesus" still perform miracles. Or better of course, God does them.


I guess my main objection is to what I perceive as an attempt to match our theology with our personal experience, suggesting nothing could be lacking in our prayers. I'm not so quick to jump to that conclusion and let my personal experience determine my theology.

[Hans Deventer]

I'll bet Jesus can still do that. When you can let me know as there are a lot of sick people. CNN might show up and the crowds will be problem.
Randy

I read in my Bible that Jesus even then did not like that kind of attention. And I again don't appreciate your sarcasm.

[Bob Carabbio]

A look into the life of George Mueller would be interesting - he DID pray with authority, and one RULE he had was ONLY to "ask God" - period. If George needed something, then he didn't let everybody know in the hope that they'd take pity on him and give him what he desired.

He went to God alone, and laid it before HIM. And the provisions came year after year.

Paul used military language a LOT in his epistles and the ramification of that is that a man in the military DOES NOT do what HE wants to do, but does what his duty is as a committed good soldier.

[Ian Gentles]

There does seem to be a presumption, unwittingly i know, that God doesent want to answer prayer in the short term. Also, and we don't mean this i know, we seem to make excuses for God's not answering of prayer in the now! It seems, certainly does for me, we struggle with whole concept of prayer, what it is, and what it achieves! My church has a prayer hot line, why? We have prayer teams to pray for the sick, why? This can be duplicated all over in many churches, but why? When in need what is it that motivates us to ask for prayer? Seems to me we have a great yearning in our Christian souls for answered prayer, a belief, a hope, that prayer actually works! What is it that drives us to prayer if prayer is to be very seldom answered?

[Hans Deventer]

What is it that drives us to prayer if prayer is to be very seldom answered?

It's not what, it's Who.

[Ian Gentles]

It's not what, it's Who.

But why should He create in us such a great desire? I sit here praying, I yearn for answered prayer, not just for things! But we seem to see very little when this Holy Spirit inspired yearning is put into practice. I feel like a child at times saying, "Father this isn't the way its meant to be". I mean this prayer sincerely I was taught prayer works, I read that prayer works, but in reality, hearing most folks, it seldom happens in the now!

[Hans Deventer]

But why should He create in us such a great desire?

I think I can answer that one with some certainty. God has created us to live in relation with Him.

[Ian Gentles]

I think I can answer that one with some certainty. God has created us to live in relation with Him.

good, now surely a relationship is a two way thing? Its not a , us asking and being ignored, that is not a relationship!

[Hans Deventer]

good, now surely a relationship is a two way thing? Its not a , us asking and being ignored, that is not a relationship!

Well, then follow the advice of Job's wife. Or read on and understand that though a relationship, it isn't an equal one.

[Ian Gentles]

Well, then follow the advice of Job's wife. Or read on and understand that though a relationship, it isn't an equal one.

No it isnt an equal relationship, its us and God! Yet a relationship is still a two way thing. I used the humane picture a relationship isnt being ignored most of the time, as i couldent think of another. In Job's case circumstances were desperate and i am sure his wife was in great pain of soul when she advised. God, in our relationship with Him seems to major on prayer as the means of communication. In doing so He invites us to talk to Him, not just for things, but for felt joy of that relationship. So, if i am communicating with God, then when does He say, "OK"? To me this communication in relationship must allow for God to answer, and most certainly not always with a "no"
Also, if as i child of God, I pray, surely My Father has given me some authority in access to Himself?

[Hans Deventer]

No it isnt an equal relationship, its us and God! Yet a relationship is still a two way thing. I used the humane picture a relationship isnt being ignored most of the time, as i couldent think of another. In Job's case circumstances were desperate and i am sure his wife was in great pain of soul when she advised. God, in our relationship with Him seems to major on prayer as the means of communication. In doing so He invites us to talk to Him, not just for things, but for felt joy of that relationship. So, if i am communicating with God, then when does He say, "OK"?

We don't know. No one in the Bible did, apart from a special revelation of God.

To me this communication in relationship must allow for God to answer, and most certainly not always with a "no"
Also, if as i child of God, I pray, surely My Father has given me some authority in access to Himself?

Sure. We believe He does hear us. But we don't know when or how He will answer. And the Bible is also full of the silence of God.
Asaph in Psalm 73 didn't get much of an answer, and still managed to keep resting his faith on God.

For me, I ultimately have no security but in the fact that God loves me as John 3:16 says. That's really all there is that I can be sure of, the rest is bonus.

So the real question is, if I don't see anything of God in all my years on this earth, will God's love as shown in Jesus Christ be enough?

When all goes well, this question doesn't press itself upon us. But it times of trouble, it most certainly does! And what will be our answer?

[Ian Gentles]

Seems to me Hans we do have faith as we hold on to God's loving us through many years and trials.
But we are also His servants, His children, with His purposes to be fullfilled, His work to be done. I need His authority in my ministry I can do it without this. Also, I was made for fellowship with God, this seems only reason for my creation. I know He takes pleasure in our faith, in our believing, and that should make us glad.
Our Father also directs us to scripture in regards all, and in regards to prayer and there we read teaching that would seem to conflict with experience. Prayer in teachings seems full of exciting possibilities and promises. Yet, we seem to have given up, in west, in believing, or at least experiencing it all! It would seem, the more simpler believers are, taking the Bible at it word, the more they experience. Are we too complicated? West seems high on praise and teaching while low on experience.

[Randy Wise]

I know that God will act. But I won't tell Him how to act.
John 5:30

Barbara this is stated well. Even Hans stated someplace sometimes we are focused on what we want God to do we miss the other things God is doing. When I am in need God has been there with me with comfort but that doesn't mean I get what I want. My prayers will still be "Holy Father please have mercy on.... "

Randy

[Hans Deventer]

It would seem, the more simpler believers are, taking the Bible at it word, the more they experience. Are we too complicated? West seems high on praise and teaching while low on experience.

I agree.

[Ian Gentles]

Seems to me simpler Christians in other parts of world, just take Bible at its word and therefore experience greater things than we do. Or is it a case of God's judgment on western Christians for not living in faith as He calls us too? Must admit we are into our "Things", our possessions etc. We fill, or try to fill, our souls with learning. Did i ever really needs these hundreds of books? Has any of them really helped my spiritual life? I do feel soul examination is healthy to an extent. Seems often we can cry for "Mercy" and at same time wonder what "Mercy" really is. Where simpler Christians just cry for it not theologising the matter! But here i, maybe we, have problems, oh we have faith in God's love, but seemingly not over much that He wishes to bless us, in our souls, with answers to pray, not all prayer, but if we are truely living in His will, many!

[Randy Wise]

Jesus no doubt had the authority to give life. Why then did He pray in the manner written below? What did He have to ask for? What is does state is that He was heard because of His reverent submission. So God does hear us. I just can't conceive of a Loving God allowing anyone to suffer because I prayed with submission instead of "authority" and I still maintain if God wanted to act in that manner God would.

Randy

7During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.

[Marilyn Lawson]

I have seen people pray with authority over 2 of my children and have seen them both recover from an illness - with a ultimate healing in the end for one. Just not the way most of my family or friends expected and that I accepted as expected.

I have prayed for guidence and strength durring what could have been the worst moment of my life - to come out of the situation praising God. Knowing he was never away from me and that he was taking care of the situation.

I have moments where I feel absolutly totaly alone and have no idea what to do.

Durring those moments I pray and talk with people I trust and listen/read alot of Naznet. I work on power points praying as I do them - and realise I am not alone.
I so value the knowledge that is shared on this board, sometimes I feel it is over picked at (but having gone through higher education allows you the right to).

BUT Prayer, answers and comfort come in different forms to different people.
It always brings me back to believing in God as a child.

Hope this sounds right.

[Ian Gentles]

Seems we all agree that prayer, answered as we wish or not, is a relational thing, part of fellowship with the Divine Being. As we consider the prayer matter we are also thinking about the fellowship with God matter. What is this fellowship to be like, what comes from it? Oh i am not meaning things, or necessarily healings, more an all round prayer been a matter that counts! We have a prayer and praise board and i note we ask for prayer a lot, so folks believe prayer does count, in that they are answered. We don't share for sake of it, but because we believe God does answer prayer. But maybe its the case we are hoping others can pray with more faith than we can?

[Barbara Moulton]

I've been thinking about this thread and realized that I believe I live my life in both submission and authority.

It is because I daily submit my life to God that I have been able to have authority over things that once were debilitating to me. I remember when I was younger reading the verse,

Romans 8:15
For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father."

I wanted to live without fear but I had much fear. I sure didn't have authority over it. But, as years have progressed, as I have submitted I have realized the key to living without fear.

I am a child of God and so I do have authority (e.g. many of you have seen my relevant posts on this matter when we have discussed demon activity in the world). But as a child of God so I submit to my father.

As I look back on my life, I realize that it is my prayers of surrender and submission on a daily basis which have given me authority over things that once brought me down.

I can live my live with authority because I have prayed with submission.

Does that make sense?

[Hans Deventer]

I can live my live with authority because I have prayed with submission.

Does that make sense?

Absolutely.

[Ian Gentles]

Absolutely.

I think if we are honest Barbara "Fear" is a big thing for all of so found your testemony helpful and nearer to what i was thinking in this thread. I guess i fear much, maybe I fear most, silly me, that God will let me down in some way. Some may fear there is more and they are missing it, others may fear their ministry and life isn't counting for much. Some fear illness, others may fear death, and so on! "Fear" does seem to cripple Christian spirituality more than anything. Maybe the thing to fear most is "Fear" itself?