Is Joel Osteen a heretic?

[Mike Schutz]

Watched Joel Osteen on 60 Minutes last evening. It was an interesting and I thought a balanced presentation.

When Osteen was confronted with the perspective offered by a seminary professor that he was a heretic for presenting a message which consists solely of "God is nice, you are nice, let's be nicer" (professor's words), Osteen stated that his calling is not to present theological statements but to teach people God's love and how to live the Christian life.

That led me to think about Eugene Peterson's statement in the last issue of Holiness Today when he stated that pastors need to present the spiritual life "accurately," rather than to simplify it. (I think I am being true to Peterson's comments.)

So, based upon Alistair McGrath's definition of heresy, which is "an inadequate version of Christianity," do you think Osteen is a heretic? Or is he simply living out his calling, while others are responsible for presenting a fuller, more detailed account of the faith.

[Ian Gentles]

As my old college president said, "Heritics will be in Heaven after all you all hope to be there"

[David Parker]

Here is the link:

60 Minutes - Joel Osteen (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/10/11/60minutes/main3358652.shtml)

[Roland Hearn]

Mike,
I've been thinking about a similar issue in another context. I wonder if we take the burden for adequacy in our theological presentations too greatly. After all if Karl Barth can say, "Jesus loves me this I know", is the most profound theological truth he has ever heard (at least I have heard him quoted as saying that, don't tie me down I could easily be wrong) then I wonder how in depth we need to make the gospel. Here is my point: Christianity is alive today through centuries of inadequate expressions. Point of the sword conversion does seem to be a little "inadequate". While I think right thinking is important the Bible doesn't say we are saved by anything other than faith. A presentation that leads to faith is probably an adequate one. My brother in law was saved after going to watch Jesus Christ Super Star at the movies. He ultimately needed more than that but it was the place of beginning for him. So my answer is I don't think he is a heretic. Am I advocating anything goes? Probably not far from it. I don't know many people that come to faith with all of their theology worked out. So what if we see grace as an enormous funnel that captures people at a fairly broad level of understanding and moves them closer and closer to the heart of God.

It was an enormous relief to me in my own spiritual journey when I let go of having to be right at every point form my own salvation - but then there are people that think I'm a heretic too.

[Jamie Wayne]

Mike,

Alistar McGrath writes that, "For Schleiermacher, heresy is fundamentally an inadequate or inauthentic form of Christian faith. On the basis of his analysis of the theme of redemption in Christ, Schleiermacher identifies four heresies that arise from an inadequate grasp of redemption, as follows..."

He then lists: 1) Ebionitism, 2) Docetism, 3) Pelagiansism, and 4) Manichaeism.

"The four heresies described above may, according to Schleiermacher, be regarded as the four 'natural heresies' of the Christian faith, each of which arises through an inadequate interpretation of the doctrine of redemption in Christ."


I guess my thought would be that if Joel Olsteen falls into one of those four categories, then he's certainly what would be considered a "heretic" by the historical standard of orthodoxy. I read somewhere (I thought it was McGrath, but maybe it was Gonzalez or Pelikan) that only those things which were considered "heresies" in the patristic era (ending, say, with Augustine) can technically be called heresies. I think that's pretty fair, actually - more or less.

With that, leaving it at "inadequate", I guess that would be too relative a term. In other words, what constitutes "inadequate"? Refusing to preach on a literal interpretation of Genesis might be considered "inadequate" to some, while preaching a literal interpretation of Genesis might be considered "inadequate" to others. I think that, without defining what constitutes what is "inadequate", it would be hard to make any sweeping statements. If we go with Schleiermacher's four "natural heresies", then I'd suspect that, while Joel Olsteen may seem weak and inadequate to me, I wouldn't call him a heretic. Benny Hinn (for example), on the other hand, though he may not fall neatly into Schleiermacher's four "natural heresies", certainly would fall into the "false prophet" category, and that's equally (more or less) bad - even though Benny Hinn has made theologically repugnant claims (such as allegedly saying that there are 9 persons of the Trinity, claiming that each of the three persons has three persons or some such nonsense).

Am I making sense?

[Oliver Phillips]

It is shameful and arrogant of the professor to label Osteen as a heretic. Heresy is doctrine that runs counter to orthodoxy. Evangelical practice comprises manifold expressions of faith and praxis. If the professor wanted to voice a criticism of Osteen it should be that he presents an imbalanced gospel. Osteen proffers one aspect of the Christian machination that is biblical. He is simply guilty of inattention to other important virtues.

To claim that Osteen is a heretic because his gospel is imbalanced is to indict a host of preachers who are imbalanced by their negligence in teaching the social justice requirements of Deuteronomy and Leviticus. Preachers today have truncated the gospel message by ignoring the Lukan passage that speaks (Luke 4:16-19) to the real purpose for which Christ came. I would hope that those who point fingers at Osteen would take inventory of their own selections of biblical texts that address Jesus' real mission on earth.

SHALOM!

[Jamie Wayne]

The problem that I have with Schleiermacher's four "natural heresies" is that they're all Christological; I would like to include Trinitarian heresies, as well, such as adoptionism and subordinationism. He doesn't include the Arian heresy, either, which speaks both to Christology and the Trinity.

Anyway...LOL!

[Dennis Bratcher]

Mike,
I've been thinking about a similar issue in another context. I wonder if we take the burden for adequacy in our theological presentations too greatly. After all if Karl Barth can say, "Jesus loves me this I know", is the most profound theological truth he has ever heard (at least I have heard him quoted as saying that, don't tie me down I could easily be wrong) then I wonder how in depth we need to make the gospel. Here is my point: Christianity is alive today through centuries of inadequate expressions. Point of the sword conversion does seem to be a little "inadequate". While I think right thinking is important the Bible doesn't say we are saved by anything other than faith. A presentation that leads to faith is probably an adequate one. My brother in law was saved after going to watch Jesus Christ Super Star at the movies. He ultimately needed more than that but it was the place of beginning for him. So my answer is I don't think he is a heretic. Am I advocating anything goes? Probably not far from it. I don't know many people that come to faith with all of their theology worked out. So what if we see grace as an enormous funnel that captures people at a fairly broad level of understanding and moves them closer and closer to the heart of God.

It was an enormous relief to me in my own spiritual journey when I let go of having to be right at every point form my own salvation - but then there are people that think I'm a heretic too.

Yes, it is liberating to realize that salvation is not by correct belief! It really is by grace through faith.

Here is where we need to make a distinction between becoming Christian and growing in the Faith. Evangelicals and especially revivalists have tended to make salvation hard to “get” and easy to live. It is really the other way around, that is, it is easy to get and much harder to live.

It does not take much to come to God. That is the nature of grace. However, to actually grow in the Faith, to learn how to live being Christian in the world is much more difficult. It takes time, effort, and intentionality. Maybe that is why Matthew said, not “Go and Preach” or “Go and get people saved,” but “Go and make disciples.” Mark’s Gospel reminds us that discipleship is not easy to come by and not for the fainthearted.

So, no, we are not saved by what we believe, nor do we need to get everything correct to be a good Christian. Even Wesley admitted that was most likely wrong on some things without being aware of it. But we do live based on what we believe, which makes our beliefs important for different reasons.

At the very least, that suggests some concern with faithful expressions of the Faith that do not lock people into spiritual infancy. As Barth knew all too well when he made that statement, it took 8,000 or so pages to work out the implications of that simplicity (Church Dogmatics). That is the nature of human beings; we like to think that proclaiming simple truths is enough because we also assume that simple truths are easy truths to live. The opposite is more likely the case.

Grace and Peace,

Dennis Bratcher

[Billy Cox]

I believe that the term 'heretic' is overused to the extent that it has come to mean 'that with which I vigorously disagree.'

[Billy Cox]

...Alistair McGrath's definition of heresy, which is "an inadequate version of Christianity,"

Considering that the traditional punishment for heresy was (at times) death, I find that definition to be...well, inadequate.

I don't refer to anyone as a heretic, not even myself in jest.

[Mike Schutz]

Considering that the traditional punishment for heresy was (at times) death, I find that definition to be...well, inadequate.

I don't refer to anyone as a heretic, not even myself in jest.

I certainly live on the edge.

[Gina Stevenson]

Tell you what ... having been a Christian for a long, long time, and having not heard off-base things from him when he was on here, I'd not highly analyzed what I heard from him, but just took the "hope" which he is trying to dispense. Living in what can be a negative atmosphere, anything sounding hopeful/positive seems a breath of fresh air ....

No, I wouldn't call him a heretic, because my "something's-not-right-here" feelers would've gone "Zing!" while hearing him (he's no longer on here; $$ situation ... not much from this area as support, so a pragmatic decision ... ??). Were it any decision of mine ... or were it put to a vote ... I'd vote to have him back on here.

[Bob Carabbio]

I used to teach a Bible study in the '70s with ladies from the U.C.C. Which in West Central Ohio is just about as "Bone liberal" as liberal protestant groups get.

But these folks were saved all the way to their toenails, and HUNGRY for the Word, and we had a fine 'ol time in the Word for about 5 years (and all their husbands got saved during that period which was our "prayer emphasis").

And in the discussions, I found out that no less than three of 'em traced the beginning of their spiritual journey into salvation to - "Jesus Christ Superstar"!!! I was because Jesus was presented NOT as the spookey "God walking around in a man suit pretending to be human" classical image - but as a MAN who could be affected, and threatened, and hurt - just like us. Hard to believe NOW that that was a rather "revolutionary" concept in the late '60s. IF SUPERSTAR can get 'em "kicked off" in the right direction, 'ol Joel shouldn't even be in question.

John Osteen was as "straight' a shooter as the SBC ever produced, and he "disfellowshipped himself" from 'em because of his charismatic leanings, and to avoid the inevitable "left foot of fellowship" always extended toward folks who countenanced such things. And HE was the one who requested the Joel become the NEW pastor of the Lakewood Church.

Joel's a little to syrupy smooth for my taste, and definitly no theologian - but a LONG way from being a "heretic" - although my suspicion is that the "Larry King" thing did rattle his cage pretty hard. And He's a LONG WAY from being the TOTAL ministry package at Lakewood. There are small groups and Sunday Schools, and activity groups where ministry takes place also.

My suspicion is that the GREATEST SIN that he's committed is - experiencing success. The Church tends NOT to forgive that easily.

[Bob Evans]

Roland

As an aside to the entire message of the theme Barth uttered these words at the University of Chicago in 1963. My dad was in the audience. He talked about the event on a regular basis until the day he passed away in 1994.

Bob


Mike,
I've been thinking about a similar issue in another context. I wonder if we take the burden for adequacy in our theological presentations too greatly. After all if Karl Barth can say, "Jesus loves me this I know", is the most profound theological truth he has ever heard (at least I have heard him quoted as saying that, don't tie me down I could easily be wrong) then I wonder how in depth we need to make the gospel. Here is my point: Christianity is alive today through centuries of inadequate expressions. Point of the sword conversion does seem to be a little "inadequate". While I think right thinking is important the Bible doesn't say we are saved by anything other than faith. A presentation that leads to faith is probably an adequate one. My brother in law was saved after going to watch Jesus Christ Super Star at the movies. He ultimately needed more than that but it was the place of beginning for him. So my answer is I don't think he is a heretic. Am I advocating anything goes? Probably not far from it. I don't know many people that come to faith with all of their theology worked out. So what if we see grace as an enormous funnel that captures people at a fairly broad level of understanding and moves them closer and closer to the heart of God.

It was an enormous relief to me in my own spiritual journey when I let go of having to be right at every point form my own salvation - but then there are people that think I'm a heretic too.

[Dennis M. Scott]

Osteen likely should be cast in the same heretic net with the likes of Robert Schuller and Norman Vincent Peale. All three have been shunned by some narrow theogs, and I guess I am grateful that they aren't the only preachers around. We desperately need their temperament in the whole of declaration. People get beat up and soured on what some of the rest of us preach. A little Osteen heresy won't hurt.

[Greg Farra]

I just have a hard time understanding the popularity of tv evangelism. Of course, for every person who is drawn to Christ, I wonder how many are repulsed by the gaudiness and greed of these preachers. I have known people who reject Christianity because they view these charletans as representative of the church. I probably wouldn't put Osteen in this camp yet, but the few times I've watched him all he did was smile the whole time and not say much of anything with depth.

Many of these tv evangelists live obscene lifestyles, with their ministries paying for houses and private jets. Their roots are pentecostal mixed with an unhealthy dose of prosperity and health theology. I must admit, it is easier to sit on our rears in front of a boob tube having our ears tickled rather than picking up a good book on theology. The unfortunate thing is that most of the books people read are by these same teachers.

[Dennis M. Scott]

Come on Texas naznetters. We know there are some naznetters who attend Joel's church. Isn't it time to weigh in for this thread?

[Paula Karr]

Come on Texas naznetters. We know there are some naznetters who attend Joel's church. Isn't it time to weigh in for this thread?

I haven't been to Joel's church in Texas, but I do admit to watching him every Sunday morning before leaving for our own church service. This past June, I had the opportunity to see Joel "live" in San Jose, CA. They brought along the worship team and the whole family. It was wonderful to stand in a large auditorium with thousands of others, holding up our Bibles and saying, "This is my Bible; I am what it says I am . . . " And I have a label stuck to my monitor frame which contains another quote that Joel uses often: "I am a child of the Most High God."

Joel's words of encouragement are a blessing to those of us who have suffered from low self esteem and depression. He has been a bit heavy on the predestination theme recently, but I still appreciate the positive message he speaks.

While we were in San Jose, we went to meet him at a book-signing. He respected his audience enough to start the event right on time (which impressed me), and -- much to our surprise -- he started out by going to the back of the line and shaking hands with everyone in the line before he sat down to autograph the books. When he got to me, I said, "Joel, thank you for teaching me that I am a child of the Most High God." He took my hand in both of his, gave me a trademark big grin, :basic05 then said, "a-MEN!"

I'm not a "groupie" kind of person, but I thoroughly enjoyed shaking his hand and, later that evening, attending the service. I sensed a genuineness about him. One of these days I hope to attend a service at his church in Houston. After all, he promises every week that they'll make us feel "right at home."

Paula

[Gina Stevenson]

I haven't been to Joel's church in Texas, but I do admit to watching him every Sunday morning before leaving for our own church service.

Yes, I used to do this on either Sunday or Monday evening [a different channel each evening]. Now, it's not only missing from one, but from both, so can no longer do this. Maybe someday he'll be back on ... somewhere. Glad you got to meet him to verify to those of us who have not that he's "genuine." Thanks, Paula. ;)

[Mike Schutz]

I haven't been to Joel's church in Texas, but I do admit to watching him every Sunday morning before leaving for our own church service.

Okay. Maybe this belongs to the pastor's - insecurity thread. But it is a bit unnerving. I have several folks who seek me out every Sunday morning before worship to let me know how great, how powerful, how moving (pick one or more) the sermon was that they watched on TV before leaving the house.

One Sunday I couldn't help myself. With a smile I said, "I wonder if Joel Osteen goes around before his services checking to make sure the restrooms have toilet paper."

:PTL)

[Paula Karr]

Okay. Maybe this belongs to the pastor's - insecurity thread. But it is a bit unnerving. I have several folks who seek me out every Sunday morning before worship to let me know how great, how powerful, how moving (pick one or more) the sermon was that they watched on TV before leaving the house.

One Sunday I couldn't help myself. With a smile I said, "I wonder if Joel Osteen goes around before his services checking to make sure the restrooms have toilet paper."

:PTL)

Mike, I don't see why it would be unnerving . . . unless those folks are telling you about "how great, how powerful, how moving (pick one or more) the sermon was" so they could finish the description with, "unlike what I hear at church." Looking at it another way, perhaps they're saying, "We're already warmed up and ready to listen to what God has laid on your heart."

We have a fantastic pastor whom I've actually only shaken hands with 3 times in the 8 years we've gone to our church. We have so many services every weekend on our two campuses that at about 1/3 of them, we see a videotape of the pastor instead of having him there "live." While I prefer the "live" pastor, I'm so accustomed to watching Joel on TV that seeing Cal on tape isn't that big of a deal.

Paula

[Billie Goodson]

Okay. Maybe this belongs to the pastor's - insecurity thread. But it is a bit unnerving. I have several folks who seek me out every Sunday morning before worship to let me know how great, how powerful, how moving (pick one or more) the sermon was that they watched on TV before leaving the house.

One Sunday I couldn't help myself. With a smile I said, "I wonder if Joel Osteen goes around before his services checking to make sure the restrooms have toilet paper."

:PTL)

But -- they did leave the house, so you were hopefully offering something they were seeking, and not just a bathroom break on the way to lunch...:fav02:preach:fun14

[Bruce Carriker]

That is the nature of human beings; we like to think that proclaiming simple truths is enough because we also assume that simple truths are easy truths to live. The opposite is more likely the case.

Grace and Peace,

Dennis Bratcher

In the Army we used to have a saying:

The most difficult tasks have simple solutions, but the simple solutions are almost never easy.

[Bruce Carriker]

Okay. Maybe this belongs to the pastor's - insecurity thread. But it is a bit unnerving. I have several folks who seek me out every Sunday morning before worship to let me know how great, how powerful, how moving (pick one or more) the sermon was that they watched on TV before leaving the house.

One Sunday I couldn't help myself. With a smile I said, "I wonder if Joel Osteen goes around before his services checking to make sure the restrooms have toilet paper."

:PTL)


In one of my homiletics classes one morning the professor said, (paraphrasing):

You live in a difficult age to be a preacher. When I began preaching I was compared to the Methodist pastor and the Baptist pastor and the Presbyterian pastor. Now, through radio and television, you will be compared to Charles Stanley, Chuck Swindoll, Ravi Zacharias, David Jeremiah and Adrian Rogers. It isn't fair, because most of us will never preach as well as they do. But that's the world we live in today.

[Dennis Bratcher]

In one of my homiletics classes one morning the professor said, (paraphrasing):

You live in a difficult age to be a preacher. When I began preaching I was compared to the Methodist pastor and the Baptist pastor and the Presbyterian pastor. Now, through radio and television, you will be compared to Charles Stanley, Chuck Swindoll, Ravi Zacharias, David Jeremiah and Adrian Rogers. It isn't fair, because most of us will never preach as well as they do. But that's the world we live in today.

Maybe we're just reaping what we have sown. We evangelicals placed so much emphasis on the sermon as the only content to worship (everything else was the “preliminaries”), that it is no wonder many ended up not even needing a church or even a person as long as they had preaching (this actually started in the late 1930s with radio ministry).

This might also serve to highlight the very significant difference between “preacher” and “pastor,” and the ecclesiology (theological understanding of the nature of the Church) that allows those differences to be so pronounced.

Grace and Peace,

Dennis Bratcher

[John Kennedy]

It's ironic that the legitimate desire to use technology for the spread of the gospel was one of the things that lenabled the encroachment of spectatorism into corporate worship.

[Mike Schutz]

It's ironic that the legitimate desire to use technology for the spread of the gospel was one of the things that lenabled the encroachment of spectatorism into corporate worship.


I would agree, but it had been around much longer than modern technology. The popularity of tent revivals was due to the entertainment value. Folks went to see the show.

[Mike McVey]

It's ironic that the legitimate desire to use technology for the spread of the gospel was one of the things that lenabled the encroachment of spectatorism into corporate worship.

There always seems to be a trade-off with technology. If there is an upside there is an equal downside.

[Jamie Wayne]

Maybe we're just reaping what we have sown. We evangelicals placed so much emphasis on the sermon as the only content to worship (everything else was the “preliminaries”), that it is no wonder many ended up not even needing a church or even a person as long as they had preaching (this actually started in the late 1930s with radio ministry).

...and the commercials that break up the program become liturgy.

[Billy Cox]

It's ironic that the legitimate desire to use technology for the spread of the gospel was one of the things that lenabled the encroachment of spectatorism into corporate worship.

You may recall that thousands of people showed up for Jesus' miracle and parable show.

[Ian Gentles]

I believe there are actually very few great preachers. Some stand out in history, but not over many. Thinkers seem to mold churches way forward not its preachers. I agree that liturgy in some form will increasingly become us, the pastor as a leader and not necessarily a great preacher!

[Barbara Moulton]

I believe there are actually very few great preachers. Some stand out in history, but not over many. Thinkers seem to mold churches way forward not its preachers. I agree that liturgy in some form will increasingly become us, the pastor as a leader and not necessarily a great preacher!

Tastes in what constitute a great preacher change. I saw a clip of Billy Sunday on a documentary DVD that Leisha got for Christmas. I could probably have listened to him for about 5 minutes. I found him quite annoying :-)

[Dennis Bratcher]

You may recall that thousands of people showed up for Jesus' miracle and parable show.

Which is probably why Jesus gradually moved away from large public displays of miracles that characterized his early ministry (note John 6:26).

Dennis B.

[Randy Wise]

Mt thoughts:
I listened to the interview. 73 million church dollar intake (mail + collections) ; 13 million advance on Joels new book, which subject matter seems to lack Jesus and His message

Joel tells people what they want to hear. A prosperity gospel that doesn't disappoint. Joel was asked in the interview why his messages lack Jesus. Thats a good question because the God of my bible brings glory to the Son and the Father is glorified in the Son. The individual who calls Joel a heretic did so because Joels message makes religion about us and not about God. While its difficult to grasp what Joel is stating as heresy I believe what Joel is teaching is misleading to the body of Christ and isn't from above. His message is about the love of wealth and material things and all those good things God has waiting for you. Who doesn't want to hear that form of message? Well me.

Randy

[Gina Stevenson]

His message is about the love of wealth and material things and all those good things God has waiting for you. Who doesn't want to hear that form of message? Well me.

Randy


Perhaps some of us just don't hear that in it, because we're gleaning the positive strands, and not even hearing if there is something else there that would hint at "things" rather than "God" being "the main thing." As stated before, when one's amidst negativity, they -- I guess -- grasp at positive statements (even if they're not, but were bro't up that way?).

Yes, the $millions$ do sound a bit extreme ... but most likely a pragmatic figure based on previous sales. Just think of what that $$ can do when in the hands of someone caring about Kingdom advancement rather than going "down the drain" at some casino(s), eh?

[Bob Evans]

Gina

Positive is an alluring message and understanding a little about your context I could see the appeal. However, you really do have to care about what the church stands for and what they beleives otherwise faith is limited in foundation.

Our faith needs to be based on the truth of the risen Lord and not feel good type of experiences.

Bob

[Greg Farra]

If we have to get our spiritual food from TV preachers, God help us. I recommend that everyone rents the movie 'Elmer Gantry'. Some things never change.

[Billy Cox]

Joel was asked in the interview why his messages lack Jesus. Thats a good question because the God of my bible brings glory to the Son and the Father is glorified in the Son. The individual who calls Joel a heretic did so because Joels message makes religion about us and not about God. While its difficult to grasp what Joel is stating as heresy I believe what Joel is teaching is misleading to the body of Christ and isn't from above. His message is about the love of wealth and material things and all those good things God has waiting for you. Who doesn't want to hear that form of message? Well me.


What was Osteen's response? If you're going to call someone a false prophet, you have to support your claim with something more substantial than a straw-man argument.

Btw, religion IS about us. Religion is our somewhat organized response to God's revelation. If mankind ceased to exist tomorrow, there would be no religion.

[Greg Gates]

His message is about the love of wealth and material things and all those good things God has waiting for you. Who doesn't want to hear that form of message? Well me.

I go through phases where it is what I need to hear but then I go through other phases where it doesn't resonate with me at all.

If it is mostly true that a congregation won't mature past the pastor, then I think there are millions of people who could soon be looking for pastors who preach messages relevant to the brutal realities of life.

[Gina Stevenson]

Gina

Positive is an alluring message and understanding a little about your context I could see the appeal. However, you really do have to care about what the church stands for and what they beleives otherwise faith is limited in foundation.

Our faith needs to be based on the truth of the risen Lord and not feel good type of experiences.

Bob

OK, I guess I do see what you mean. Perhaps because I've got a wide, solid base, I don't worry re being swayed by something less than the entire gospel. Hadn't tho't, I guess, in the situation in which I find myself, re those who perhaps have heard nothing but Joel [tho' I still have to say he does give folks an opportunity to come to the Lord, and there are all those other ministries mentioned within the church, so it's not only limited to his sermon].

Knowing I'm most likely not going to be "corrupted" (if that's what someone would even dare call it) by hearing something "positive" [hey, John 10:10 is definitely positive! ;)] that---added to what I already know---sometimes may have helped (past tense, since he's no longer on here) me through the day/week, I still can't really knock it.

[Gina Stevenson]

If we have to get our spiritual food from TV preachers, God help us. I recommend that everyone rents the movie 'Elmer Gantry'. Some things never change.

Haven't heard anyone hear suggest that's where they get their main meal ... but, hey, if something is a decent additive to the main meal ....

You know, Greg, some of us live where any & all positive input/feedback is welcome ... lest we pick up too much of the negativity tossed our way constantly. Please don't knock it ... if you've not lived where some of us are living.

Thank you.

[Randy Wise]

What was Osteen's response? If you're going to call someone a false prophet, you have to support your claim with something more substantial than a straw-man argument.

Btw, religion IS about us. Religion is our somewhat organized response to God's revelation. If mankind ceased to exist tomorrow, there would be no religion.


If anyone wants to view the video is the link not on this sight? If anyone wants to watch Mr. Osteen and listen to his messages and his promises can they not view him on TV? I gave my reasons.
Randy

[Bob Evans]

Gina

Now that your back on the rd then perhaps there are some more positive live options for you to pursue for positive imput.:basic05

Bob

Haven't heard anyone hear suggest that's where they get their main meal ... but, hey, if something is a decent additive to the main meal ....

You know, Greg, some of us live where any & all positive input/feedback is welcome ... lest we pick up too much of the negativity tossed our way constantly. Please don't knock it ... if you've not lived where some of us are living.

Thank you.

[Bob Evans]

I can understand the need to get through the day. but in light of where I work gtting through the day at times is a really narrow standard.


OK, I guess I do see what you mean. Perhaps because I've got a wide, solid base, I don't worry re being swayed by something less than the entire gospel. Hadn't tho't, I guess, in the situation in which I find myself, re those who perhaps have heard nothing but Joel [tho' I still have to say he does give folks an opportunity to come to the Lord, and there are all those other ministries mentioned within the church, so it's not only limited to his sermon].

Knowing I'm most likely not going to be "corrupted" (if that's what someone would even dare call it) by hearing something "positive" [hey, John 10:10 is definitely positive! ;)] that---added to what I already know---sometimes may have helped (past tense, since he's no longer on here) me through the day/week, I still can't really knock it.

[Gina Stevenson]

I can understand the need to get through the day. but in light of where I work gtting through the day at times is a really narrow standard.

Are you saying that "getting through the day" [since I was speaking emotionally] pales in comparison with some of your client's need to just "make it through the day alive," some of them even having no roof? [or is there something else I've missed at this late hour?]

[was going to go to bed, and then ............. came here for a few minutes ... way too long ago!]

[Bob Evans]

Gina

I'm just saying there are better ways to get through the day now that your driving. The same logic of getting through the day is used by the alcoholic homeless to justify their habits and lifestyle. You have a few more options than that now with your increased mobility.

[Genevieve Boller]

"Heretic" is a very severe accusation, and I would hope people would use it much more carefully.

I don't feel comfortable with Osteen's church and success. Not because he has done anything wrong, or counter to Christ's purposes, but because he is someone who has enormous potential, and even power, to do so much for the Kingdom. It's great that he has "cross-over" appeal and that people who are uncomfortable with religion will listen to what he has to say, but I don't think he's living up to all that he could be doing with what God has given him.

Lakewood Church is huge - I mean HUGE. We have friends who went there one Sunday and they said it was like going to Disneyland or something. You have to park way out yonder and be shuttled in, and then the massive crowds are like being at a crowded airport. Somehow I can't imagine experiencing intimacy with the Lord in that kind of setting, buy maybe that's just me.

What I need to know more about is this -with so much in the way of resources, how many missions are they supporting? What compassion ministries do they have? How many people are being shepherded into real, intimate relationship with God?

It's funny - when we drive by it on the freeway, my husband reminds me of all the Ozzy Osbourne, Black Sabbath, and other heavy metal concerts he saw there. How neat that the God turned a pot-smoke-infested, lascivious, party-hard entertainment center into a house of the Lord? :laughing

[Paula Karr]

Lakewood Church is huge - I mean HUGE. Somehow I can't imagine experiencing intimacy with the Lord in that kind of setting, buy maybe that's just me.

What I need to know more about is this -with so much in the way of resources, how many missions are they supporting? What compassion ministries do they have? How many people are being shepherded into real, intimate relationship with God?



The church we attend averages 6,000 every weekend over multiple services. I have developed a closer walk with God -- intimacy -- more than I ever did in much smaller (100 max) churches over 30 years. It surprised me that this could be the case, but it sure has been for us.

In answer to your question about missions / ministries, I found this on the Lakewood Church website:

"Joel and Victoria Osteen, along with the entire Lakewood family, are focused like never before on meeting the needs of the Houston community and providing ministries and services that impact every area of life. While their commitment to the local community is strong, Lakewood's international commitment is also increasing. While supplying much needed resources, services and materials to the victims of the Tsunami and Hurricane Katrina and Rita, Lakewood is also impacting the lives of people in over 100 countries. In addition, Lakewood's television ministry takes the hope found in a personal relationship with Jesus to millions worldwide."

Joel Osteen closes every telecast by inviting watchers to pray and ask to be saved. He then says, "Get into a good Bible-believing church . . . " He doesn't say, "If you send me money, God is guaranteed to bless you." IMHO, he is cut from a different mold from many TV preachers. Does he preach deep theological sermons? No. But the Bible even speaks of those who are "newborn babes" who need "milk." And sometimes, even us experienced Christians appreciate a nice, refreshing, nutritional glass of milk.

Paula

[Mike McVey]

And sometimes, even us experienced Christians appreciate a nice, refreshing, nutritional glass of milk.

Yeah, but the kind of milk we drink comes from a cow, not a person. :) The milk infants are to drink is specifically designed for babies, not adults.

[Billy Cox]

Well, you mentioned the question asked to Osteen, but did not mention his response. Why bring it up then?

I'll take a look at the video.

[Billy Cox]

It's funny - when we drive by it on the freeway, my husband reminds me of all the Ozzy Osbourne, Black Sabbath, and other heavy metal concerts he saw there. How neat that the God turned a pot-smoke-infested, lascivious, party-hard entertainment center into a house of the Lord? :laughing

...and the Houston Rockets used to play in that building too.

[Gina Stevenson]

Gina

I'm just saying there are better ways to get through the day now that your driving.

Yessir! Actually, last Sunday I was nearly ready to go out the door [reluctantly, considering the weather] when the power went out. Figuring that more was happening out there than I'd previously realized in spite of the storm warnings, I decided that maybe I shouldn't, tho' it was the first Sunday with my "new" (to me, tho' 10 yrs old) wheels. Good timing for that storm, huh? :rolleyes:

The same logic of getting through the day is used by the alcoholic homeless to justify their habits and lifestyle. You have a few more options than that now with your increased mobility.

Awww, come on, Bob ... the alcoholic's habit is compared to listening to Joel? Goodness! Anyway, I do plan to be there tomorrow morning (well, this morning, since it is past midnight). ;)

[Mike McVey]

Mike, it seems that yet another thread has strayed.

Since I have yet to answer, here it is:

Joel is not a heretic. He is a great communicator for simple things. It remains to be seen if he can handle anything deep. He is not a good preacher. He constantly uses scripture to prove whatever he is already saying.

Michael Horton, the theologian that called Joel a heretic is a Calvinistic zealot who thinks that any group outside of Calvin, Zwingli, and Luther are basically heretics. I have read a bit of his stuff.

A heretic, according to our church fathers, is one who is purposely being divisive. Joel might not be preach the brightest sermons, but I know of several pastors who believe "rightly" (there is such a thing, right?) that do worse. Joel is not purposely divisive. Sometimes I wish he was, because it is easier to pigeon-hole him and it makes my life easier.

Joel offers the gospel not of wealth and prosperity, but a gospel that is cheap... no cost involved. That is very scary. Jesus says to count the cost before following him. A lot of preachers forget that. Some, like me, probably dwell on it too much. It is one thing to say that God suffers with us and it is a completely other thing to say that if you believe in God, you will not suffer, but prosper. This is completely contradictory to scripture.

So, no, he is not a heretic. But for me, I would rather my kids would be a lot safer watching a controversial movie than watch him.

[Garth Lahana]

One Sunday I couldn't help myself. With a smile I said, "I wonder if Joel Osteen goes around before his services checking to make sure the restrooms have toilet paper."

Right there on the edge Mike ;) :laughing

[Ian Gentles]

I could never go with prosperity gospel as it really dosent work. Many missionaries and faithful pastors have struggled to get bye, were they lacking?

[Mike Schutz]

You may recall that thousands of people showed up for Jesus' miracle and parable show.

And hundreds of thousands showed up to listen to Hitler.
I used to have a poster with a picture taken from behind Hitler giving a speech from the steps of the Reichstag. In front of him were hundreds of thousands of people, cheering and hanging on his every word.


The caption of the poster was, "Just because someone can draw a crowd..."

[Billy Cox]

If those missionaries and faithful pastors were adherents to the prosperity gospel, then this line of reasoning might be convincing.

It is circular reasoning to say that prosperity gospel didn't work for pastors/missionaries who reject as illegitimate the claims of the prosperity gospel.

[Gina Stevenson]

Gina

Now that your back on the rd then perhaps there are some more positive live options for you to pursue for positive imput.:basic05

Bob


Now that I'm on the road [and last Sunday's storm/power outage kept me in], I got further this morning than last ... but not yet there. I felt so sad when I awoke and found that I'd managed to sleep through my alarm ... have to practice getting up during the week I guess! Seriously.

Anyway, I tho't I'd come late, anyway, even if I missed the music, to hear pastor Joe. Well, by the time I got ready, got out the door, figuring I'd hear the last 20-30 minutes, I found enough ice on the thing that I turned around and came back in, figuring clearing that and getting there would use up how many of those last 20-30 minutes. :( Since I'd already had my wipers fixed, having another day turned them on too soon, and the heavy snow/ice did them in, rather than their helping clear it---sensitive, they seem---I didn't dare hurry this morning in trying to clear things off/get out of here.

Then I even asked about just using Ma's car [sitting clean & dry under the carport, while mine sits outside of it, getting dumped on everything that comes down], since I was ready, and mine was a mess, and she didn't appear to be going anywhere. Ignored, as tho' not heard, tho' she never did go anywhere today. So, guess I have to think re going out & starting it early enough to melt some, etc, etc ... also not my favorite thing to do on such a day, since it was a bit icy, too.

Dang, winter! Really feeling I do not belong here; I managed to get out & about so much better when out west. Saw another thing today, too, that reminded me of things I've just never done here in MI. There was something re Special Olympics in the newspaper's Parade ... helped with that out west, too, along with other things I've not done here.

This all leads to a question re something I heard years ago, with which I definitely agree ... that would be about some people being "destined/meant to be" living in certain climates, rather than just anywhere. Sure doesn't seem I'm to stay here and forever be a "whiny winter wimp." Seems I should be where I managed to at least have somewhat of a life, tho' not as much of one, after Danny died. Here, it seems to basically come to nearly a halt, come [what to me is the horrible] winter weather. Some hate the heat ... some, like me, can't seem to endure well at all in the cold.

[Charlotte Mercer]

Joel offers the gospel not of wealth and prosperity, but a gospel that is cheap... no cost involved. That is very scary. Jesus says to count the cost before following him. A lot of preachers forget that. Some, like me, probably dwell on it too much. It is one thing to say that God suffers with us and it is a completely other thing to say that if you believe in God, you will not suffer, but prosper. This is completely contradictory to scripture.

As a disclaimer, I have not actually watched Joel's preaching, but from what i have read on this thread, I have to kind of agree with Mike on this one. Jesus very clearly told us that we will suffer for the sake of the gospel. There is more to the bible than warm fuzzies.

But the fact remains that for centuries, we have called the gospel "Good News," and when we look at the bible (though it's sometimes easier to see or understand in the New Testament), the main message seems to be one of love and compassion and hope. One verse that quickly comes to mind is 1 Corinthians 13:13 - "And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love." While suffering is a part of the Christian walk, and persecutions do happen, the core message seems to be one of love. Even when we deal with suffering, the challenge seems to be to continue to focus on the peace and hope and love that come from a relationship with God, and it sounds to me like, while Joel Osteen may not discuss Christian suffering much, he does at least an adequate job of discussing the character of God and the benefits that come from a life that focuses on Him.

[Ian Gentles]

There is a price to pay in seeking to follow Jesus. We do sometimes run away from the truth that we are called to bear our cross. We don't want the cross really, we all prefer the blessings instead. Today we have many preaching blessings only, this is false teaching, or at least incomplete teaching!

[Randy Wise]

There is a price to pay in seeking to follow Jesus. We do sometimes run away from the truth that we are called to bear our cross. We don't want the cross really, we all prefer the blessings instead. Today we have many preaching blessings only, this is false teaching, or at least incomplete teaching!

Claims in the name of God that are certainly a far cry from "give us this day our daily bread" A message claiming job promotions etc. that God has for us is appealing and thats why Joel is so popular.

Following Jesus doesn't make one poor but rich. If the price to pay is not diving into a life of sin that doesn't seem so hard to me. Maybe in the future near the time of the end christain lives may be on the line for the truth of the Gospel message. Rev 17:6 Rev 13:10 Getting a job isn't a sin and some excel more than others in earning income, but God isn't my wishing well to worldly wealth. In regard to worldly wealth there is a parable about one who lays their foundation on sand and one who lays their foundation on the rock. When the storm comes...

Randy

[Wilson L. Deaton]

"... the important thing is that in every way, ...., Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice."

(Do you suppose Joel Osteen is sitting around with his friends discussing whether or not Wilson Deaton is a heretic? :basic03 )

Wilson

[Ian Gentles]

"... the important thing is that in every way, ...., Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice."

(Do you suppose Joel Osteen is sitting around with his friends discussing whether or not Wilson Deaton is a heretic? :basic03 )

Wilson

Gosh i guess we are all heretics if truth be known lol

[Randy Wise]

"... the important thing is that in every way, ...., Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice."

(Do you suppose Joel Osteen is sitting around with his friends discussing whether or not Wilson Deaton is a heretic? :basic03 )

Wilson

Does Christs name come up with Joel?? I don't like the term "heretic" but this is in the title of this thread
Randy

[Wilson L. Deaton]

Does Christs name come up with Joel??

Yes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfwYU2pmWYQ&mode=related&search=

This short clip (a Larry King interview) includes:

"I believe you have to know Christ..."

Wilson

[Randy Wise]

Yes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfwYU2pmWYQ&mode=related&search=

This short clip (a Larry King interview) includes:

"I believe you have to know Christ..."

Wilson

God created us to have plenty to pay are bills? I think these promises are misleading as I stated before but you stated what Paul stated. So maybe some good will come from it.

Randy

[Randy Wise]

Heres a link to the 60min interview:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zv8FwssTGCg&feature=related

[Wilson L. Deaton]

God created us to have plenty to pay are bills? I think these promises are misleading as I stated before but you stated what Paul stated. So maybe some good will come from it.

Randy

Randy, for the record, I am far, far away from agreeing with all that Osteen says. I'm just trying to remind myself that he is not the enemy....

Wilson

[Billy Cox]

Wilson who??

[Gina Stevenson]

"... the important thing is that in every way, ...., Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice."

(Do you suppose Joel Osteen is sitting around with his friends discussing whether or not Wilson Deaton is a heretic? :basic03 )

Wilson

Oh, of that I'm quite sure, Wilson! :basic05 Or, if not yet, perhaps once you get that weekly Sunday morning contract with NBC, "they," including Joel, will certainly be considering this a possibility! :rolleyes:

Randy, for the record, I am far, far away from agreeing with all that Osteen says. I'm just trying to remind myself that he is not the enemy....

Wilson

Good reminder, Wilson, as he is not "the enemy."

Wilson who??

RIGHT! [but see the above re Wilson's "tentative" --- imaginary, actually --- contract.] :basic05

[David Pettigrew]

In answer to your question about missions / ministries, I found this on the Lakewood Church website:

"Joel and Victoria Osteen, along with the entire Lakewood family, are focused like never before on meeting the needs of the Houston community..."


Paula

I guess this is the root of my problem with Bro. Joel and many other celebrity church personalities. I can't imagine a statement on my church's website or literature like "Dave and Tracie Pettigrew, along with the entire Denison Nazarene family, are focused like never before on blah blah blah..." There is a problem when the preacher becomes the focus of the church.

Will I see Joel in heaven? I have no reason to believe I won't. But I don't know that I can call him a pastor. If he's helping some folks, then good for him.