On Calvery, does God make Himself vulnarable?

[Ian Gentles]

Still reading, slowly, Sanders book on "The God Who Risks", a book on open theism, and i recommend it. But does God take a risk, make Himself vulnerable, in placing His faith in cross to make us respond? Was their a risk disciples would never get it, idea of a crucified Messiah? I struggle with idea God takes risk in regards to humanity, but truly can see arguments. However God making Himself vulnerable, in seeking to save me, stricks a cord! We dont think about vulnarabilty of A God of Love. Oh He is sovreign, but works with us, wants our love, quite amazing really!

[Billie Goodson]

Was their a risk disciples would never get it, idea of a crucified Messiah?

I think the answer to this question is -- yes. Judas did not get "it". I was doing a study of Judas a while ago and trying to come up with a position on Judas. The gist of my thesis was that the difference between Judas and the other disciples was that they experienced the risen Christ. This made a profound difference in their understanding. After they saw him, they were prepared for Pentecost -- but, I think the greatest experience had already occurred, when they saw Christ after the crucification.

[Charlotte Mercer]

I agree with Billie. God was very much vulnerable in going to the cross as Christ. Some of His final words were "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" That sounds awfully vulnerable to me, if God incarnate was feeling deserted by God.

But it didn't even take Him going to the cross for Him to be vulnerable, though that is a Great example and shows it more fully than other examples. Most of us here have heard or said "God is love" and "For God so loved the world" so much that those verses have nearly lost all meaning, but if you think about it, the idea that God could love anyone at all says that God makes Himself vulnerable. To love someone is to make yourself vulnerable. When you love someone, you run the risk that they won't love you back, and most of us probably remember a time in our own lives when we loved or even just liked someone who didn't love or like us back. If it hurts that much for us, and we only love very imperfectly, how much more must it hurt for Someone who loves perfectly and who's love has been rejected by billions of people throughout history?

I would go even farther than just saying that God can be vulnerable. I would say that our own ability to be vulnerable might just be a reflection of God's vulnerability, just as our love is a reflection of His perfect love.

[Hans Deventer]

I agree with Billie. God was very much vulnerable in going to the cross as Christ. Some of His final words were "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" That sounds awfully vulnerable to me, if God incarnate was feeling deserted by God.

But it didn't even take Him going to the cross for Him to be vulnerable, though that is a Great example and shows it more fully than other examples. Most of us here have heard or said "God is love" and "For God so loved the world" so much that those verses have nearly lost all meaning, but if you think about it, the idea that God could love anyone at all says that God makes Himself vulnerable. To love someone is to make yourself vulnerable. When you love someone, you run the risk that they won't love you back, and most of us probably remember a time in our own lives when we loved or even just liked someone who didn't love or like us back. If it hurts that much for us, and we only love very imperfectly, how much more must it hurt for Someone who loves perfectly and who's love has been rejected by billions of people throughout history?

I would go even farther than just saying that God can be vulnerable. I would say that our own ability to be vulnerable might just be a reflection of God's vulnerability, just as our love is a reflection of His perfect love.

A mere "thanks" is not enough. Wow! I had to approach 50 before I even started to get this stuff into my skull. And here you are, writing like this. Awesome. And I totally agree.

[Ian Gentles]

Oh yes love makes us vulnerable, and God was vurlnarable, is vulnerable, in His love for us!

[Ian Gentles]

Makes you wonder how we can love God, be vulnerable for Him. To hold Jesus in the Garden, to love Him, to let Him feel not so alone. God may i hug You and bless you tonight!

[Jamie Wayne]

Check out Jurgen Moltmann's "The Crucified God" for more, Ian.

[Billie Goodson]

Charlotte,

I read your post and it really is so true. I read where someone once said that the phrase "personal saviour" was almost a heresy. I really struggled with that and tried to get at what they meant. I think it makes sense now -- and your post really made it become a little more so. I used to think how much God rejoiced when I was saved -- now I think I am wrong. God does not rejoice the greatest when someone is saved, but, when that person steps out and begins to fulfill the great commission. It is not about me being saved, but, about me living the life that glorifies God and then when the next person comes to a relationship. I do not feel adequate to really complete this thought, and I surely cannot "save" anyone. But, I have to feel that God does not want me to stop at salvation -- he has a bigger plan for me. Kind of like McDonalds -- it is not one being served, but billions -- your post made me think of this.

[Roland Hearn]

I agree with Billie. God was very much vulnerable in going to the cross as Christ. Some of His final words were "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" That sounds awfully vulnerable to me, if God incarnate was feeling deserted by God.

But it didn't even take Him going to the cross for Him to be vulnerable, though that is a Great example and shows it more fully than other examples. Most of us here have heard or said "God is love" and "For God so loved the world" so much that those verses have nearly lost all meaning, but if you think about it, the idea that God could love anyone at all says that God makes Himself vulnerable. To love someone is to make yourself vulnerable. When you love someone, you run the risk that they won't love you back, and most of us probably remember a time in our own lives when we loved or even just liked someone who didn't love or like us back. If it hurts that much for us, and we only love very imperfectly, how much more must it hurt for Someone who loves perfectly and who's love has been rejected by billions of people throughout history?

I would go even farther than just saying that God can be vulnerable. I would say that our own ability to be vulnerable might just be a reflection of God's vulnerability, just as our love is a reflection of His perfect love.

Charlotte I am proud of you. You are indeed a product of NewStart and of your father. Like Hans said to see someone of your age understanding these things is a fabulous reflection of the truths that we have worked through. I see my own kids being able to understand things that I never could at their age and if everything else your father and I have worked through together means nothing the fact that you and they get it has made it worth the cost. Thank you for being open.

And on the other issue just to affirm these things. There is no such thing as love without vulnerability. We fool ourselves when we say we love people and we do not live lives of vulnerability before them.

[Hans Deventer]

I used to think how much God rejoiced when I was saved -- now I think I am wrong. God does not rejoice the greatest when someone is saved, but, when that person steps out and begins to fulfill the great commission. It is not about me being saved, but, about me living the life that glorifies God and then when the next person comes to a relationship.

Billie, that IS being saved! Our concept of salvation was lacking. God does rejoice when one is being saved, but that means so much more than we thought it was. You've described it perfectly.

[Ian Gentles]

I think in persons "being saved" God rejoices as He see's the gamble of the cross worked!

[James Diggs]

God made himself vulnerable when he becomes a human being at the incarnation.