An alternative aproach to the Lords return

[Martijn van Beveren]

Seems world and church has now waited a long time for the Lords return. Course a thousand years to the Lord are but a day. Is there any time scale we can think of that helps in this question?

No. (sorry Ian)
There are more than enough books in the evangelical circle who can help you in that direction.

I would like to aproach this another way....

I wonder is there also a different aproach to view the Lords return? I mean, we all seem to await a sort of ending of the time ribbon when the curtain falls and everything becomes new.
But I'm curious, maybe even thinking on the edge....
Is the return maybe read in a certain point of view? could there be a different idea behind it? more in the way of human determination? please read on after having read this:

http://www.crivoice.org/secondcoming.html

I first read this article because I'm not the kinda guy who figures things out by himself. Though I have creativity :)
Please bear with me for a sec...
Is it possible, that: through becoming Christlike resemblance, such as being kind gentle, humble, fighting injustice, seeking truth, love understanding, caring for our neigbour; can be a way of Christ returing in us? As soon as we can say, Lord I have followed my own foolishness, guide me, fill me, lead me, I long fo your understanding!
And as the world starts to learn of these fruits and gain knowledge in these things and starts showing them, we start to make way where Christ has returned to the world? Are we the ones to evolve(grow) in Christ? And that this will be the new heaven and earth?

Call it bold, call it heresy, but is it a possibility? I would like to say that this is just a walk... On a road that hasn't been walked on much which may lead to a new understanding.

Waiting on your gentle reply,:basic03
Marty

Romans 8:19-21:
For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the children of God; for the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and will obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

[Roland Hearn]

Martijn, it is an interesting speculation and one I have played around with in my own mind. The problem is always going to be the extent to which the Bible indicates, one - the ending of time as we know it and two the general and complete revelation of Christ at his return. It is a total revelation that is definitely climactic. There are also the Biblical illusions to the complete annihilation of the current order. Having said that I am not closed at all to understandings of Christ's return that don't seem to work against what is clearly the progression of culture and history. I have an open mind on the subject.

[Jeremy D. Scott]

I don't know, Martin, wouldn't it be easier for us if Jesus just came and made all things right? Why should we do anything?

Aren't we just supposed to sit tight and not do anything?

:basic04

[Jeremy D. Scott]

Just to be clear...my post was not for real because I definitely believe that we , as the Body of Christ, are to today usher in the presence of Christ in the world.

[Wilson L. Deaton]

Just to be clear...my post was not for real because I definitely believe that we , as the Body of Christ, are to today usher in the presence of Christ in the world.

Just so you know, Jeremy, I understood!

Wilson

[Gina Stevenson]

Just to be clear...my post was not for real because I definitely believe that we , as the Body of Christ, are to today usher in the presence of Christ in the world.

Glad to see you bothered to "splain," Jeremy; otherwise, some of us might've been tempted to mark your previous post "smart-alecky/TIC post alert!" :basic05

[Martijn van Beveren]

Martijn, it is an interesting speculation and one I have played around with in my own mind. The problem is always going to be the extent to which the Bible indicates, one - the ending of time as we know it and two the general and complete revelation of Christ at his return. It is a total revelation that is definitely climactic.

So, the return of Christ in this world would be the end of the time as we know it. I can agree to that :rolleyes:. I was wondering in what way the Lord will return. Not that I hold strong focus to this because it won´t matter how much we talk about it (non essential). Someday it will be there. One just starts to imagine sometimes.
So, in my speculations we can go 3 ways.
1. the spiritual comeback (when all will be filled by God with Christ and the HS)
2. the physical comeback (in bodily form returning to earth)
3. the 3rd alternative I haven´t worked out or thought of:basic02


There are also the Biblical illusions to the complete annihilation of the current order. Having said that I am not closed at all to understandings of Christ's return that don't seem to work against what is clearly the progression of culture and history. I have an open mind on the subject.

I also like to see the world in progression even though then news that confronts me will like to tell me otherwise. I think we still have a looooooooong way to go, but it is up to us to change our ways.
One of our governmental organisations had a slogan a while ago (don´t know if they stil use it), it goes like this: A better environment starts with yourself!

Martijn

[Martijn van Beveren]

Just to be clear...my post was not for real because I definitely believe that we , as the Body of Christ, are to today usher in the presence of Christ in the world.

I had to read twice, lol:basic03

M

[Ian Gentles]

"World in progression" it all going downhill!! I cant honestly see this planet, with humans in control, lasting much longer!

[Martijn van Beveren]

"World in progression" it all going downhill!! I cant honestly see this planet, with humans in control, lasting much longer!

Your doom scenario strikes me just as odd. I think you´re looking in the wrong direction.
God has given over us authority, and we are the ones to live out the kingdom.
If you don´t I can see why you can´t see :)

Marty

[Ian Gentles]

"Us" are ok rest of humanity is raping planet and playing with big bombs!

[Martijn van Beveren]

"Us" are ok rest of humanity is raping planet and playing with big bombs!

Well, I didn´t say we have arrived... It wil take a loooooooooooooooong time.

Martijn

[Ian Gentles]

LOL it sure will!

[Brenda Jackson]

Hi Marty

Is it possible, that: through becoming Christlike resemblance, such as being kind gentle, humble, fighting injustice, seeking truth, love understanding, caring for our neigbour; can be a way of Christ returing in us? As soon as we can say, Lord I have followed my own foolishness, guide me, fill me, lead me, I long fo your understanding!

This is my belief Marty. When Christ does come again to us, He changes us so much that there is a new heaven and a new earth, or it seems to be so, as the change in us is so profound we look at everything in a totally different way, and it is bodily as He is able to live within our bodies once the sin question has been dealt with in entire sanctification. The disciples talked about it being in the lifetime of the hearers because it had already happened to them

[Roland Hearn]

"World in progression" it all going downhill!! I cant honestly see this planet, with humans in control, lasting much longer!

Ian to be fair that probably says more about the way you are experiencing the world yourself rather than an objective analysis of the fate of the world. We've had this discussion before but by any criteria the world is a better place today then it was even fifty years ago. Certainly a better place then it was 500 years ago.

[Ian Gentles]

Ian to be fair that probably says more about the way you are experiencing the world yourself rather than an objective analysis of the fate of the world. We've had this discussion before but by any criteria the world is a better place today then it was even fifty years ago. Certainly a better place then it was 500 years ago.

Again i was thinking mainly of ecological damage being done, and global existence as a result of this.
Must admit i was brought up in the old, look for the signs of the times, Nazarene church, and its kinda hard to shakes. ;)

[Wilson L. Deaton]

Again i was thinking mainly of ecological damage being done, and global existence as a result of this.

Ian, you are making me curious... Whenever we discuss this in the context of a global warming thread you seem to focus on it not being proven, being a lot of hype, etc. But now, in the context of the Lord's return (or end of the world), you seem very concerned about what we are doing to the environment. Am I perceiving you wrong or does this tension exist in your thinking?

Wilson

[Ian Gentles]

Ian, you are making me curious... Whenever we discuss this in the context of a global warming thread you seem to focus on it not being proven, being a lot of hype, etc. But now, in the context of the Lord's return (or end of the world), you seem very concerned about what we are doing to the environment. Am I perceiving you wrong or does this tension exist in your thinking?

Wilson

I don't believe global warming has yet been proved, however do notice rain forests vanishing and that is damaging!

[Martijn van Beveren]

Hi Marty



This is my belief Marty. When Christ does come again to us, He changes us so much that there is a new heaven and a new earth, or it seems to be so, as the change in us is so profound we look at everything in a totally different way, and it is bodily as He is able to live within our bodies once the sin question has been dealt with in entire sanctification.

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but are you suggesting that when we are changed inside that we see a new heaven and a new earth? is this in conversion, entire sanctification or future? Could you elaborate on this?


The disciples talked about it being in the lifetime of the hearers because it had already happened to them

Hmmm... so the new heaven and earth are already here? I'm not sure if this is the way the disciples looked at it, and which part of scripture are you referring to?:fav03

greetz,
Martijn:basic03

[Brenda Jackson]

Martijn

are you suggesting that when we are changed inside that we see a new heaven and a new earth? is this in conversion, entire sanctification or future?

Yes, it is the new perception of everything which takes place at entire sanctification, or at least this has been my experience of it, so therefore my understanding of scripture and from what i have read of some writers. It is the change from having the old nature, even the old nature that has been given to trying to be obedient, to having the new that is to say, the new heart that has been cleansed entirely, and the renewed mind of Christ. It is when there is complete healing of the soul and freedom from the former things that constricted our Christian walk.

Sea is the symbol of trouble and strife in the scriptures so when it says there will be no more sea in Revelation 21:1, in the new heaven and earth, I understand that meaning to be, not that there will be no bad things happen to us again, but that they will not touch our peace and joy which we have as a new creation. In verse 5 it says that He makes all things new and this is exactly what my experience has been, and as far as I can see, the experience of others like the apostles who have been given the clean heart, for as the scripture says, it is out of our heart that comes our problems or how we react to things or the way we see them because it is from the heart whence comes our desires or the things we love. So instead of looking at something with human eyes, something that one would usually be dismayed about, like the loss of money or health or a loved one, one can see it through the eyes of Christ and be able to praise Him for it, knowing that He will bring good out of it for all, Himself included, and by then all we care about is pleasing His heart. and being in His perfect will.

so the new heaven and earth are already here? I'm not sure if this is the way the disciples looked at it, and which part of scripture are you referring to?

It is already here for those to whom Jesus has returned personally and is fulfilling His promises, and Paul spoke as though he was already experiencing this sort of life in the Spirit of joy and peace, so he talked about looking to the the return of Jesus for others in the sense that it is to be expected in this life. It was not that he was expecting a physical return which of course did not happen. An Apostle who was so close to Jesus would know that no man knows when, so he would not have sounded so definite about it and would only have mentioned for us always to be ready when in fact he was talking as though it was a fact that He would come. Besides it made no sense that Jesus would return so quickly, when the world had not been evangelized, nor did it look possible especially when Paul himself only stayed around the Mediterranean area.

blessings
Brenda

[James Diggs]

Just this past Advent season I posted a reflection on my blog (http://indigenousstranger.blogspot.com/2007/11/expecting-unexpected.htm) about this very topic. I’ll just cut and past my thoughts from that post bellow. I am interested and seeing what you guys think.

Expecting the Unexpected (http://indigenousstranger.blogspot.com/2007/11/expecting-unexpected.htm)

I have very much enjoyed this Advent season as Christmas approaches; as it encourages us to live in a contestant state of expectation for the Kingdom of God. All the readings in the lectionary for Advent encouraged this but the first weeks reading seems to have really stuck with me. The first Sunday of Advent’s reading for Sunday December 2nd includes Matthew 24:36-44. In this passage Jesus tells his disciples the following:

"But about that day and hour no one knows, neither the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. For as the days of Noah were, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark, and they knew nothing until the flood came and swept them all away, so too will be the coming of the Son of Man.

Then two will be in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. Two women will be grinding meal together; one will be taken and one will be left. Keep awake therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.

But understand this: if the owner of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an unexpected hour.”

Advent is not just about looking back at the coming of Christmas, it is about looking forward. In fact even when we look back at the coming of the incarnation through the birth of Christ we are reflecting on how the ancient world looked forward in expectation to the arrival of the messiah, the coming of the Kingdom, and the good news that God would truly be with them. We are reminded in this passage that as followers of Jesus, Immanuel, God incarnate who is with us, that we should still be earnestly anticipating the coming of the Kingdom of God.

I am especially struck by this passage because the words in the narrative come from Jesus himself. Jesus is the embodiment of the Kingdom of God, and he had come to the world. Jesus was literally “God with” the disciples and yet he taught them to pray that the Kingdom would come and God’s will be done on earth as it is in heaven. This is truly a unique prayer request coming from Jesus especially when you consider that Jesus was the embodiment of God’s will on earth and he was standing among them.

There is this great and wonderful tension between the already and not yet in this passage. When asked by the disciples when the day will come where the Kingdom of God will have the final word, Jesus answers in a way that best keeps that wonderful tension and by this keeps them in the right frame of mind to actually lean into the Kingdom of God in their current day. The incarnate God tells them to expect the Kingdom of God to come again in an incarnational context. You have to watch for it, because God will show up on the scene in the unexpected places of every day life; working in the field with a coworker, or perhaps while preparing a meal in the kitchen with friend. You have to watch for it because you could easily miss it. Jesus’ story tells us that two could be sharing the same experience and yet one could be raptured up in it as the Kingdom of God and the other one could miss it all together.

Speaking of being raptured into the Kingdom; typically this passage is used to teach about “the rapture” and used as a warning not to be “left behind”, but oddly enough I think many of those who are obsessed with “end times” are already left behind because they may be tragically missing the point. When and where will we see the Kingdom of God come? If we are careful to watch, we will see it come in the every day places and everyday things of each day; yet we are instructed to still keep watching for more. We will begin to see it when we become enraptured with the idea of the Kingdom of God coming to us in the here in now.

Jesus said ironically that the days will be as wicked as the days of Noah when the Kingdom comes as people do their own thing without the awareness to recognize that is God there. Yet God is there, and because they were not looking, they were taken by surprised, and missed it. Yes, the days of Noah were bad days, and Jesus talks about suffering and hardship to come as well, and yet it is also in these things in our lives that if we watch we will see the kingdom of God coming in. How unexpected. How more unexpected is it that God would come and be present among a world full of sin and injustice, and yet he did so in Christ. As his followers we should be looking for him to continue to come in this way as we lean into him together as the body of Christ bearing the sins and injustices of the world; and in the midst of this unexpected place look for the Kingdom of God to break in.

I think the point of this passage is to watch, and embrace our every day lives in a way that carries on the incarnation of God through us as the continued work of the body of Christ in the everyday world. I think the point is to watch and see what God will do as we keep praying and looking for the Kingdom of God to break through. I think there is a big difference between looking for the coming of the Kingdom and looking for the “end times”. Many religious people today look for the “end times” as a way to write off and escape the world, but looking for the Kingdom of God is about looking and expecting the Kingdom to break into this world. Which way are you leaning? If you not leaning into the Kingdom of God and watching as it is breaking into this world, even in the context of your everyday life, then you very well may miss it.

Yes, I believe Jesus is coming again and I am looking for him everyday in unexpected places.