Christendom Territorial War

[Edith K. Thurmond]

If you don't sigh or shake your head first, you will have to laugh. Seems as if this has been representative of much of Christianity for centuries. http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=071227133441.5ue4z6fy&show_article=1&image=large

Still shaking my head and trusting they find a way to work together that includes peace.

Blessings to them,

[Charlotte Mercer]

Okay, I can't help but feel like maybe they missed something. I mean really, we're fighting over who gets to help Jesus?

[Dennis Bratcher]

If you don't sigh or shake your head first, you will have to laugh. Seems as if this has been representative of much of Christianity for centuries. http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=071227133441.5ue4z6fy&show_article=1&image=large

Still shaking my head and trusting they find a way to work together that includes peace.

Blessings to them,

The Old Testament explicitly forbids imaging God, because invariably sacred objects eventually become objects of worship themselves. That is why Hezekiah outlawed relics (2 Kings 18:4). Perhaps in our Christian zeal to reject the OT as law, we never noticed that beyond “law” the torah really addresses very human issues. Even today, we ignore the wisdom of the torah at our own peril, especially since Jesus never rejected the torah, only the later interpretations of torah that functionally invalidated it, made it excessively legal, or found functional loopholes in its ethics.

We can (rightly) shake our heads at such disregard of the message of Jesus and other people for the sake of objects held dearly. But we also need to be honest and admit that evangelicals have done very similar things, from bombing abortion clinics to campaigning against professors and pastors for the sake of defending Scripture, which far too often has become a sacred object apart from its message. Idols do not have to be only ba’al images, golden serpents, or sacred shrines. It is sad how much fighting we all do in the name of the Prince of Peace over things that we think have value in themselves when in fact they should only point to Him.

Grace and Peace,

Dennis Bratcher

[Ray Brock]

The Torah is no longer used by the Jews. Humanism crept in and man changed Gods Word to the Jews and now it is known as the Talmud. When Jesus was being questioned by the Saduccees and Pharisees they used the Talmud against him but he quoted from the Torah by starting out by saying "have you not read from the fathers of old".

Christianity has been attacked for many centurys by Humanism and has been replaced by Chrystendom. Is it any wonder why their is mass confusion today?

[John Kennedy]

'Chrystendom'? Enlighten me (and possibly others), please.

[Ray Brock]

'Chrystendom'? Enlighten me (and possibly others), please.

Christendom = any religion (claiming to be Christian) that is based on tradition, human philosophy, and a potpourri blend of most anything else one could think of. Same as the Talmud taking over for the Torah.

[Ray Brock]

Where in history can it be said things started going bad? At what place in history of Christianity did the church begin to be corrupted into a mere religion? It all began in the life time of the Apostle Paul. Many pagan philosophies and practices were incorporated into the Church. The apostasy really took off when Constantine embraced the Christian religion into the Roman Empire around AD 312.

[Greg Farra]

Where in history can it be said things started going bad? At what place in history of Christianity did the church begin to be corrupted into a mere religion? It all began in the life time of the Apostle Paul. Many pagan philosophies and practices were incorporated into the Church. The apostasy really took off when Constantine embraced the Christian religion into the Roman Empire around AD 312.

Well, that's what the Mormons tell me, anyway. So what corrupt doctrines and heresies come about from all of this?

[David Parker]

Well, that's what the Mormons tell me, anyway. So what corrupt doctrines and heresies come about from all of this?

That subject is a minefield.

Many view much of the Roman Catholic tradition and practice as taking form through this era. However, the pagan practices of the time have impacted even us "by the Bible" Evangelicals in ways that many don't understand.

I highly recommend Pagan Christianity? (http://www.ptmin.org/pagan.htm) by Frank Viola and George Barna. Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Pagan-Christianity-Exploring-Church-Practices/dp/141431485X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1199139714&sr=1-1) will have it available to ship first of the year. I have his last edition linked here (http://www.amazon.com/Pagan-Christianity-Origins-Modern-Practices/dp/0966665732/ref=cm_lmf_tit_1_rsrsrs0), though it is not available through Amazon anymore. You can read a sample chapter at the first link. Fascinating and disturbing.

[Dennis Bratcher]

The Torah is no longer used by the Jews. Humanism crept in and man changed Gods Word to the Jews and now it is known as the Talmud. When Jesus was being questioned by the Saduccees and Pharisees they used the Talmud against him but he quoted from the Torah by starting out by saying "have you not read from the fathers of old".

Christianity has been attacked for many centurys by Humanism and has been replaced by Chrystendom. Is it any wonder why their is mass confusion today?

This is totally false and very prejudiced. The Torah is the centerpiece of Judaism. The Talmud is only a collection of commentaries and interpretations on the Torah. It is used as a guide for interpretation but is not at all authoritative, especially since the Talmud presents various and often conflicting perspectives on biblical passages.

This also misunderstands both the history and the nature of humanism. While there were some strands of humanism in Greek philosophy, humanism arose in conjunction with the Renaissance in the early fifteenth century, a millennium and a half after the development of the Talmud. While part of the intellectual movement that would culminate in the eighteenth century Enlightenment, in many ways humanism was a reaction to the excesses of the medieval Church. However, there were also notable early Christian humanists, such as Erasmus of Rotterdam in the early sixteenth century.

And humanism is not the bogeyman that many would like to paint it. Certainly there is secular humanism that rejects any transcendent truth or any authority beyond human beings. But there is also a humanism that is simply concerned with what is of value to human beings, with an emphasis on human history and culture, and a confidence in the ability of human beings to understand themselves and the world around them by reason. This is the strand that tracks into the Enlightenment and laid the groundwork for later philosophers like Frances Bacon to develop scientific methods of investigation. There is also a similar strand even within Scripture in what is collectively called the Wisdom Literature (see Humanism in Scripture and Culture (http://www.crivoice.org/humanism.html)).

Grace and Peace,

Dennis Bratcher

[Dennis Bratcher]

Where in history can it be said things started going bad?

Hmmm . . . In the Garden of Eden?

DB

[Ray Brock]

That subject is a minefield.

Many view much of the Roman Catholic tradition and practice as taking form through this era. However, the pagan practices of the time have impacted even us "by the Bible" Evangelicals in ways that many don't understand.

I highly recommend Pagan Christianity? (http://www.ptmin.org/pagan.htm) by Frank Viola and George Barna. Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Pagan-Christianity-Exploring-Church-Practices/dp/141431485X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1199139714&sr=1-1) will have it available to ship first of the year. I have his last edition linked here (http://www.amazon.com/Pagan-Christianity-Origins-Modern-Practices/dp/0966665732/ref=cm_lmf_tit_1_rsrsrs0), though it is not available through Amazon anymore. You can read a sample chapter at the first link. Fascinating and disturbing.

Right on - most people refuse to believe the truth - Another good book is Fox's Book of the Martyrs - that should open peoples eyes as what pagan religion is about. If you check all the so called religious holidays see where they all come from.

[Ray Brock]

This is totally false and very prejudiced. The Torah is the centerpiece of Judaism. The Talmud is only a collection of commentaries and interpretations on the Torah. It is used as a guide for interpretation but is not at all authoritative, especially since the Talmud presents various and often conflicting perspectives on biblical passages.

This also misunderstands both the history and the nature of humanism. While there were some strands of humanism in Greek philosophy, humanism arose in conjunction with the Renaissance in the early fifteenth century, a millennium and a half after the development of the Talmud. While part of the intellectual movement that would culminate in the eighteenth century Enlightenment, in many ways humanism was a reaction to the excesses of the medieval Church. However, there were also notable early Christian humanists, such as Erasmus of Rotterdam in the early sixteenth century.

And humanism is not the bogeyman that many would like to paint it. Certainly there is secular humanism that rejects any transcendent truth or any authority beyond human beings. But there is also a humanism that is simply concerned with what is of value to human beings, with an emphasis on human history and culture, and a confidence in the ability of human beings to understand themselves and the world around them by reason. This is the strand that tracks into the Enlightenment and laid the groundwork for later philosophers like Frances Bacon to develop scientific methods of investigation. There is also a similar strand even within Scripture in what is collectively called the Wisdom Literature (see Humanism in Scripture and Culture (http://www.crivoice.org/humanism.html)).

Grace and Peace,

Dennis Bratcher

Sorry to have to totally disagree with you. IF the centerpiece of the Jewish religion is the Torah then why in Gods name did they reject Jesus Christ as their Messiah. All they would have to do was go to the Torah and they would know who he was by the scriptures that foretold his coming as their Messiah. They used the Talmud which is like all the translations of the Bible that claim to be the Word of God. Common sense tells you something is wrong here. If you search long enough you will find what will agree with your belief. But I bet its not the word of God. I wonder who is behind all these translations and the Talmud - must be the god of this world.

I believe we are talking about the humanism that has raised its ugly head towards Christianity - not human welfare.

[Ray Brock]

Hmmm . . . In the Garden of Eden?

DB



Talking about when did things start to go bad during the current Church Age, not the fall of mankind.

[Dennis Bratcher]

Sorry to have to totally disagree with you..

You are welcome to disagree all you want. It just doesn't change the facts.

I wonder who is behind all these translations and the Talmud - must be the god of this world.

And once again, I point out that unless you read the Bible in its original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, you really have nothing to say about translations.

I believe we are talking about the humanism that has raised its ugly head towards Christianity - not human welfare.

As I pointed out, humanism is not inherantly opposed to Christianity any more than conservatism inherantly supports it.

Grace and Peace,

Dennis B.

[Hans Deventer]

Sorry to have to totally disagree with you. IF the centerpiece of the Jewish religion is the Torah then why in Gods name did they reject Jesus Christ as their Messiah.

Because we would not recognize Him if He walked into the door today either. Because if we recognize who Jesus is, "this was not revealed to us by man, but by my Father in heaven."
Because "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day."

So, "17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either."

[Hans Deventer]

Talking about when did things start to go bad during the current Church Age, not the fall of mankind.

When Paul and Barnabas started to argue? When Corinth turned out to be a mess? When the Galatians didn't get it? When the apostles failed to take care of the Greek widows and had to be confronted to do something about it? When Peter became a hypocrite to side with the Jews and to pretend he didn't eat with the Gentiles?

I guess it's the Garden of Eden after all.

[Randy Wise]

Sorry to have to totally disagree with you. IF the centerpiece of the Jewish religion is the Torah then why in Gods name did they reject Jesus Christ as their Messiah. All they would have to do was go to the Torah and they would know who he was by the scriptures that foretold his coming as their Messiah.

Who are "they" ? In regard to this day and age children tend to believe their parents and follow their religious teachings whether that be Judaism,Islam etc.. If you mean Jews in Jesus's time I do like to point out many did believe in Jesus, Acts 6:7 , and if their descendants remained in the faith they would be known as Christians in this day and age as Jesus is called Christ. In that regard Christ Jesus would be their Torah.

Randy

[Ray Brock]

Who are "they" ? In regard to this day and age children tend to believe their parents and follow their religious teachings whether that be Judaism,Islam etc.. If you mean Jews in Jesus's time I do like to point out many did believe in Jesus, Acts 6:7 , and if their descendants remained in the faith they would be known as Christians in this day and age as Jesus is called Christ. In that regard Christ Jesus would be their Torah.

Randy

Acts 6:7 was after the cross not during Christs earthly ministry. Read Acts Chapter 7 about who and why the killed Stephen, who was the last chance God gave to the Jews before they were put on the back burner and then ushered in the Church Age through the Apostle Paul. At the end of the Church Age the book of Revelation comes in to play as Gods judgement on Israel.

You do not become a member of the Body of Christ because your parents are or because you are a member of some local church or are Baptized, Catechized or Homogenized.

[Randy Wise]

Acts 6:7 was after the cross not during Christs earthly ministry. Read Acts Chapter 7 about who and why the killed Stephen, who was the last chance God gave to the Jews before they were put on the back burner and then ushered in the Church Age through the Apostle Paul. At the end of the Church Age the book of Revelation comes in to play as Gods judgement on Israel.

You do not become a member of the Body of Christ because your parents are or because you are a member of some local church or are Baptized, Catechized or Homogenized.

That would be true , but your question was "IF the centerpiece of the Jewish religion is the Torah then why in Gods name did they reject Jesus Christ as their Messiah?"

I was simply stating not all rejected. The Apostles themselves weren't fully with the program until Jesus appeared to them.

Nicodemus seems to suggest they did believe Jesus was from God and the story I read in Acts shows a jealousy motive towards the apostles from the jewish leadership. acts 5:17 acts 13:45 , but I read from a long time removed.

Go and use the Torah as you state to show Jesus is the Christ to those in modern Judaism and you will have the answer to your question from their response about what you suggest clear cut from torah. Nevertheless I believe the Lord would agree with you as it has been my experience He rejects their excuses and considers the testimony given sufficient

Randy

[Terri Knoll]

the comments are a riot...thanx for the link

[Genevieve Boller]

The Torah is no longer used by the Jews. Humanism crept in and man changed Gods Word to the Jews and now it is known as the Talmud. When Jesus was being questioned by the Saduccees and Pharisees they used the Talmud against him but he quoted from the Torah by starting out by saying "have you not read from the fathers of old".


That's incorrect. The Torah is still upheld as The Law (primary importance) and the Talmud is absolutely secondary to it. Of course, this only applies to religious Jews and not those who are just jews by birth (many in my family call themselves jewish but have very varied beliefs about God-if they believe He exists at all--and none of them go to temple or read the Torah OR the Talmud). For those who are not religious, though, there is still RESPECT for the Torah, and I think every Jew has one in his/her home.