What is worse, Hell or standing before God?

[Ian Gentles]

Modernism teaches a literal place of eternal torment. McLaren suggests standing before God with a life of failure can be Hell in itself! What do you think?

http://iangentles.livejournal.com

[Randy Wise]

Modernism teaches a literal place of eternal torment. McLaren suggests standing before God with a life of failure can be Hell in itself! What do you think?

http://iangentles.livejournal.com

What is worse, Hell or standing before God with a life of failure?

What is considered failure?

I would state Hell as my answer. By the way why is hell considered modernism?

Randy

[Ian Gentles]

What is worse, Hell or standing before God with a life of failure?

What is considered failure?

I would state Hell as my answer. By the way why is hell considered modernism?

Randy

I am talking about what McLaren says regards modernism.

[Ian Gentles]

McLaren argues the case of the holocaust, does God send to a further hell those who perished their without Jesus? He makes a strong argument, but my mind on subject is still open, I dont buy every argument i hear or read!

[Randy Wise]

McLaren argues the case of the holocaust, does God send to a further hell those who perished their without Jesus? He makes a strong argument, but my mind on subject is still open, I dont buy every argument i hear or read!

What do you mean by further hell?
Randy

[Randy Wise]

Well Ian you didn't answer my question. I don't know Mclaren and I'm not sure what book you are reading. The answers of how one comes to salvation are found in another book. That book speaks of what happens to those who reject Jesus. The way we die isn't shown as a means of salvation in the bible. So if one is murdered and the person who is murdered has rejected Jesus the guilt of their own sin remains on them. Of course we all believe God looks on the very young differently just as we do in matters of judgment.

Randy

[James Diggs]

Modernism teaches a literal place of eternal torment.

The lenses of modernity or post modernity do not actually take such specific theological stances such as whether there is the literal existence of hell. It is too over simplistic and inaccurate to say that modernity believes in the literal and post modernity does not.

I do think that lens of modernity lends itself to linier, measurable cause and effect, and either/or type thinking that has influenced much of our theological systems in the west. Post modernity adds awareness to modernity’s lens and also recognizes truth in non linier thinking, the reality of the immeasurable, and the both/and.

In regards to McLaren’s belief that there is no literal hell I would point out that Brian is very focused on the implications of heaven and hell qualities in our lifetime. He speaks and writes very often about the Kingdom of Heaven’s work here on earth in the here and now. In turn, he also focuses on the fact that wherever there is injustice and ungodliness and hate then hell is also on earth in the here and now.

Notice I did not say “like” heaven or hell on earth; in that sense Mclaren’s view of both heaven and hell have literal implications applied to life today. I think if heaven and hell exists literally then they exist literally in the here and now. I think the question then is not if these things are literal but rather if we believe that they will continue after the resurrection; and then if so what shape do they take and look like?

I think there is a lot of this that we will simply have to wait and see to find out. In the meantime, it is time to participate in the love, justice, peace and reconciliation of the Kingdom of God as it breaks into in our world; kicking down the gates of hell in the form of overcoming hate, selfishness, destructiveness, and injustice in the world today.

In the end I just have to trust that whatever is Kingdom worthy in the here and now because of Christ will last for eternity. The only thing I can do today is focus on participating in the eternal qualities of the Kingdom of God as it breaks in to our world today against wherever there is hell on earth.

[Hans Deventer]

Well Ian you didn't answer my question. I don't know Mclaren and I'm not sure what book you are reading.

Randy, this is the book Ian is referring to: http://www.brianmclaren.net/emc/archives/books/brians-books/the-last-word-a.html

[Mark Doble]

To die without accepting Christ's free gift of salvation is by far worse than facing God on our judgment day.

Remember, there is no condemnation for those who have accepted Salvation.
Therefore: I have no fear on the day of judgment. I will hear those words; well done good and faithful servant...

[Ryan Scott]

I think you missed the point of the question, Mark. Ian was referring to an idea thrown out in one of Brian McLaren's books that the sheer horror of standing before God a sinner and realizing what you'd done (living life against the desires of your creator) would be worse than any sort of punishment we could envision as hell. The idea, essentially, is that hell is standing before God, if you do not have a relationship with God and heaven would be standing before God if you do.

It's not really something that can be proven, but I've found it to be an interesting thought to ponder.

[Randy Wise]

I think you missed the point of the question, Mark. Ian was referring to an idea thrown out in one of Brian McLaren's books that the sheer horror of standing before God a sinner and realizing what you'd done (living life against the desires of your creator) would be worse than any sort of punishment we could envision as hell. The idea, essentially, is that hell is standing before God, if you do not have a relationship with God and heaven would be standing before God if you do.

It's not really something that can be proven, but I've found it to be an interesting thought to ponder.

I assume Brian is suggesting a different view of hell than a "prison place".

To me Gods enemies will more likely be in a state of sheer horror because of the judgment being pronounced against them rather than what we as Christians would see as a life of failure. Somehow I don't see those that love evil caring about their harmful acts as they only seem to care about themselves.

Randy

[Jill Mickelson]

I have been reading The New Living Translation. My last favorite Bible was The New International Version. I still love the NIV. Anyhow...I am "seeing" references to Hell EVERYWHERE in the NLT!

Matthew 5:22
But I say, if you are even angry with someone, you are subject to judgment! If you call someone an idiot, you are in danger of being brought before the court. And if you curse someone, you are in danger of the fires of hell.
Matthew 5:21-23 (in Context) Matthew 5 (Whole Chapter)

Look up the references to Hell in the New Testament (I use Bible Gateway) and you will be crazy in the head/heart if you don't think Hell is the worst thing that can happen to a person!

I know this will bother most people, but the Lord has been leading me to read about people's experiences of visiting heaven or hell. I've checked these accounts with what the Bible says about Heaven or Hell. Don Piper recently wrote about his 90 Minutes in Heaven. Very interesting testimony!

I totally agree with what the Bible says....

Mark 9:43
If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It’s better to enter eternal life with only one hand than to go into the unquenchable fires of hell with two hands.

[Hans Deventer]

Anyhow...I am "seeing" references to Hell EVERYWHERE in the NLT!

Jill, can you understand why such a statement would steer me clear from ever reading the NLT?