Agnostic Sunday School

[David Pettigrew]

For those of you who don't know the story - there's a couple who were involved in the emergent work at OKC First. They both have blogs. His is called "The Parish" (http://theparish.typepad.com/), hers is"Pepper spray". (http://theparish.typepad.com/pepperspray/2007/08/agnostic-sunday.html) You need to know before you click on either of these links that they contain language most would consider very offensive.

And, that was part of the problem. The blogs also reference drinking alcohol and smoking. The author of "The Parish" was invited to speak at M7, then dis-invited when his blog was discovered. Somebody closer to the story, please correct me if I have the details wrong.

Anyway, this couple kind of walked away from church after all this (or they might say the church walked away from them, who knows?), and "pepperspray" started this thing at starbucks called agnostic sunday school. You now know as much as I know.

I guess the question for discussion is, how big is the emergent circle? Would this group still be considered part of the emergent church? Can you be a follower of Jesus and an agnostic at the same time, and would such a person fit in the emergent movement?

[Dennis Bratcher]

For those of you who don't know the story - there's a couple who were involved in the emergent work at OKC First. They both have blogs. His is called "The Parish" (http://theparish.typepad.com/), hers is"Pepper spray". (http://theparish.typepad.com/pepperspray/2007/08/agnostic-sunday.html) You need to know before you click on either of these links that they contain language most would consider very offensive.

And, that was part of the problem. The blogs also reference drinking alcohol and smoking. The author of "The Parish" was invited to speak at M7, then dis-invited when his blog was discovered. Somebody closer to the story, please correct me if I have the details wrong.

Anyway, this couple kind of walked away from church after all this (or they might say the church walked away from them, who knows?), and "pepperspray" started this thing at starbucks called agnostic sunday school. You now know as much as I know.

I guess the question for discussion is, how big is the emergent circle? Would this group still be considered part of the emergent church? Can you be a follower of Jesus and an agnostic at the same time, and would such a person fit in the emergent movement?

I can give more details about this specific circumstance later if necessary. But I think there are three factors to consider here, without intending to make excuses for anyone.

First, for many young people there is a period of "agnosticism" that is part of the spiritual journey. I have had more than one religion major sit in my office and proclaim "I'm not sure I believe in God anymore." My standard response was always, "Let’s talk about it." They are struggling with putting together a lot of conflicting ideas, and do not yet have the depth of wisdom or experience to sort out how to do that. As far as I know everyone of those college students are now pastoring churches (a couple that might surprise people!).

Second, we as a larger church are still in the process of coming to terms with the excesses of our history. I think that has moved in typical pendulum fashion to overreaction in many cases. Nevertheless, that reaction has some validity, especially among those who have grown up under, or been influenced by, the more legal and dogmatic strands of our tradition. I meet regularly with a group of 40-somethings who identify themselves as "recovering evangelicals." By that, they simply mean that they are not willing to accept the "traditional" revivalist and legal casting of the Faith. They are not "emergent." But they are mostly post-modern, and yet deeply committed to God, other people, and even the Church (not just the church). I think we will continue to see these same attitudes among younger people, as well as many older people who have journeyed spiritually beyond where seeker-sensitive and church growth models (simplistically stated) can sustain them.

Third, part of the "emergent" mentality comes from a postmodern mindset that challenges authority and therefore truth. When this is combined with the above factors, it produces a more aggressive rejection of traditional (in their experience) casting of the Faith. That postmodern mindset has allowed a certain legitimization of that agnostic stage of the spiritual journey (which is one step beyond what McLaren presents). But it is not legitimized as a stage of the journey, but as a rightful destination in itself. So, we end up with evangelists promoting their own spiritual struggles as a goal. That functionally means that the process of coming to terms with how we think about God has been extended.

All this says that I think this form of "emergent" is actually a form of spiritual immaturity (which is not to reject all emergent models). I certainly would not want or allow that in church leadership (which is how the issue was dealt with). But I am also not as concerned with it as some might be. If we allow God to work, and are ourselves patient and loving with them, I think most will eventually find more truth than they thought existed, which is an effective antidote to agnosticism.

Grace and Peace,

Dennis Bratcher

[Anne and Dwayne Hood]

The emergent movement seems to be, in a large ways, those attending churches that have started these days, without, reference to denominations, and some seem to be, basically, anyone is welcome, and be considered a Christian, no matter what you do or say.
Our children lean toward these places of worship, but are with Godly people.
We have met a number of their friends, and they seem to be good, Bible believing people.
Some of these churches may be a little too far out, as the one you mentioned.

Most of you have probably read, the kind of work we have done, among military people, an integrated church, getting buildings built, with Russians, and having the opportunity to work with a Korean lady, and her family,for a long time, etc.

I think our children, wanted to branch out, after they had older children, to a larger church, that could have more things for the young people.
Otherwise, they would have to drive into Memphis to attend a Nazarene church.

So, this is the type of church world, we are emerging into, plus some changes in the COTN, also.
PS
David, the people in Arkansas seem to be doing a lot of praying for your parents.

[David Pettigrew]

I meet regularly with a group of 40-somethings who identify themselves as "recovering evangelicals."

Grace and Peace,

Dennis Bratcher

Every once in a while I come across a statement that resonates with me. This was one of those statements. I've been looking for a label for what I am; I've now found it. I would love to attend this group.

[Hal Paul]

"Recovering Evangelical" Every once in a while I come across a statement that resonates with me. This was one of those statements. I've been looking for a label for what I am; I've now found it. I would love to attend this group.

I thought the same, & was tempted to ask if there is a 12 step program that goes along with the label, but thought better of it... until now.:basic05

[Grandma Carolyn]

I have a personal problem. Dennis, I don't expect a response from you, but, I just want to tell you this, so here goes. I have a lot of work that I need to be doing here at home other than reading NazNet, but, you guys are so interesting I'm having trouble pulling myself away from reading what you are sharing. Sometimes, my housework just has to wait on more important things!

gc

[Kevin Rector]

I can give more details about this specific circumstance later if necessary. But I think there are three factors to consider here, without intending to make excuses for anyone.

First, for many young people there is a period of "agnosticism" that is part of the spiritual journey. I have had more than one religion major sit in my office and proclaim "I'm not sure I believe in God anymore." My standard response was always, "Let’s talk about it." They are struggling with putting together a lot of conflicting ideas, and do not yet have the depth of wisdom or experience to sort out how to do that. As far as I know everyone of those college students are now pastoring churches (a couple that might surprise people!).

Second, we as a larger church are still in the process of coming to terms with the excesses of our history. I think that has moved in typical pendulum fashion to overreaction in many cases. Nevertheless, that reaction has some validity, especially among those who have grown up under, or been influenced by, the more legal and dogmatic strands of our tradition. I meet regularly with a group of 40-somethings who identify themselves as "recovering evangelicals." By that, they simply mean that they are not willing to accept the "traditional" revivalist and legal casting of the Faith. They are not "emergent." But they are mostly post-modern, and yet deeply committed to God, other people, and even the Church (not just the church). I think we will continue to see these same attitudes among younger people, as well as many older people who have journeyed spiritually beyond where seeker-sensitive and church growth models (simplistically stated) can sustain them.

Third, part of the "emergent" mentality comes from a postmodern mindset that challenges authority and therefore truth. When this is combined with the above factors, it produces a more aggressive rejection of traditional (in their experience) casting of the Faith. That postmodern mindset has allowed a certain legitimization of that agnostic stage of the spiritual journey (which is one step beyond what McLaren presents). But it is not legitimized as a stage of the journey, but as a rightful destination in itself. So, we end up with evangelists promoting their own spiritual struggles as a goal. That functionally means that the process of coming to terms with how we think about God has been extended.

All this says that I think this form of "emergent" is actually a form of spiritual immaturity (which is not to reject all emergent models). I certainly would not want or allow that in church leadership (which is how the issue was dealt with). But I am also not as concerned with it as some might be. If we allow God to work, and are ourselves patient and loving with them, I think most will eventually find more truth than they thought existed, which is an effective antidote to agnosticism.

Grace and Peace,

Dennis Bratcher

These are very astute observations and I think that you are probably dead on right.

I was at the Emergent Village convention in Nashville a few years back when I noticed that there seemed to be two very distinct groups that were gathered there (there were more than two I'm sure but in regards to this topic two). The first was people who were dissatisfied with some of the traditional models of speaking of God and doing church. These were the recovering evangelicals that you described above. The second group was people who were reveling in doing things that were "naughty" as a rebellion against the more legalistic and dogmatic churches that they grew up in.

This came to light to me when in one of the sessions the speaker said what is generally considered a cuss word. There were some in the group who got really excited and whooped and hollered about how great it was that this person cussed. I realized that it wasn't that big of a deal to me that he said the word but I wasn't particularly excited by it either.

From this I sensed that perhaps there were some there like me who were searching for something that worked for us as we journeyed to Christ, while there were others who were rather spiritually immature and took the liberty of Christ as a license to annoy their parents (which is not a particularly loving attitude).

The fact remains that a lot of emergents have a hard time disassociating hurtful dogmatism and legalism in the churches where they grew up from God and so rather than rebelling against the hurtful legalism they rebel against God who interestingly enough is the one who can heal them of their hurt.

I agree though that this is often a natural part of the progression of faith. When people are really loved for who they are, and they have any level of openness to God then God can do amazing things in their lives and bring them to healing.

[Gina Stevenson]

I agree though that this is often a natural part of the progression of faith. When people are really loved for who they are, and they have any level of openness to God then God can do amazing things in their lives and bring them to healing.

Yes, for sure there seems to be a time in anyone's life wherein they struggle ... tho' in different areas for different folks ... through a slough of doubt and come out the other end with their spiritual life being that of their own, rather than just what they've always been taught.

Actually, how does anyone---without a bit of a struggle somewhere---make something their own? How is it "birthed in them" rather than merely becoming a nice-looking outer shell (actions) poured over them (from however well meaning teachers/parents)?

I would compare it to a birth struggle: the bird works to get out of that protective shell ... the butterfly works to get out of that cocoon (& to much detriment if helped along). Sometimes---which it seems Dennis is doing meeting with some folks having struggles yet---one might need assistance in this struggle to "adulthood," yet needs to do a certain amount of their own work ... again, as the bird or butterfly does.

[Kevin Rector]

Actually, how does anyone---without a bit of a struggle somewhere---make something their own?

Doubt is not the enemy of faith, it is rather the fertile soil from which faith can grow. I'm pretty sure I said that in a sermon once.

[James Diggs]

I guess the question for discussion is, how big is the emergent circle?

It is interesting to note that the Parrish blog and its surrounding controversy came up during one of the seminars and Jon Middendorf fielded the question by saying that the conversation had to include “a wide enough circle to include him (the author of the Parrish).” You can listen to that seminar from this link (http://emergentnazarenes.blogspot.com/2007/07/m7-podcasts.html), but I am not sure if the question and answer portion is on the podcast when the question came up.

I think when it comes to drawing circles we have to remember that Christ drew a circle as wide as humanity itself as he cast his lots among us in the incarnation. Now, I am not talking about universalism here but I am saying that in the spirit of living as the continued incarnational presence of Christ as his body we need to draw our circles a lot larger than they are.

I think those in the emergent church tend to draw the circle wide enough to include quite a diversity of people including agnostics, atheist and people from other faiths. Many post modern followers of Christ recognize that we may indeed find our incarnational God even in these people and our conversations with them.

I am reminded as we celebrated epiphany yesterday that the magi were astrologers from the east that followed a star to the incarnation of God in Jesus Christ. What an incredibly radical story as we are reminded that all religion, including Judaism of that day (and Christianity of today) is but a shadow of the reality of God himself made incarnate in this world. A reality made flesh with such an impact that those searching for light by following the stars from an entirely different religion found Jesus Christ. The story of the magi reminds us of how wide the circle was drawn by a God who would meet us by becoming incarnate in humanity itself.

You need to know before you click on either of these links that they contain language most would consider very offensive. And, that was part of the problem. The blogs also reference drinking alcohol and smoking.

Yes and they do not partake in ritual hand washing, abstain from non-kosher food, and their women pray with their heads uncovered and their men are uncircumcised. They are essentially barbarians.
(My sarcasm here is not aimed at David Pettigrew for his warning, but rather at the fact that he had too. In contrast I also appreciated Kevin Rector's comment that pointed out the immaturity that some times goes with things like “cussing” when they are done as a way that just amounts boasting and pounding of their own chests.)

the "emergent" mentality comes from a postmodern mindset that challenges authority and therefore truth. When this is combined with the above factors, it produces a more aggressive rejection of traditional (in their experience) casting of the Faith.

I think post-modernity can allow us to expand the way we test truth (as we are instructed to test all things) as we both recognize the limitations of the modern mindset we emerged from and some of the benefits of pre-modern mindsets that modernity had diminished. Post-modernity actually has a lot in common with pre-modernity which is why many in the emergent church are exploring deeper and older traditions than the relatively new traditions in the scope of history that modernity had offered them.

That postmodern mindset has allowed a certain legitimization of that agnostic stage of the spiritual journey. But it is not legitimized as a stage of the journey, but as a rightful destination in itself. So, we end up with evangelists promoting their own spiritual struggles as a goal.

I think you bring up a reasonable caution here. I would say that agnosticism seems to be a matter of degrees and can be both a healthy starting point for a journey and a way to continually embrace mystery and humility. I also think that being honest about our degree of uncertainty can serve as common ground for discovery in conversations with those who have not yet found hope in Christ. Again I also like Kevin’s comment that said “Doubt is not the enemy of faith, it is rather the fertile soil from which faith can grow.” A certain amount of agnosticism can be healthy.

I think this form of "emergent" is actually a form of spiritual immaturity

Yes, but my hope is that people will give it space in these areas to mature and at the same time listen closely enough to some of the small ways it has demonstrated perhaps a greater maturity than it’s modern parents.

[Grandma Carolyn]

Keep talking. I'm trying to learn what Emergent Church is! Can't say as I have learned it yet. Is there more to know beyond what has been posted?

I'm wanting to know what is meant by the Emergent Church? What do I need to do to join it?


gc

[Edith K. Thurmond]

Keep talking. I'm trying to learn what Emergent Church is! Can't say as I have learned it yet. Is there more to know beyond what has been posted?

I'm wanting to know what is meant by the Emergent Church? What do I need to do to join it?


gc

Dear Friend down deep in the Piney Woods,

See if this gives you any amplification or clarification: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerging_Church

Love and blessings,

[Marg Webb]

[The fact remains that a lot of emergents have a hard time disassociating hurtful dogmatism and legalism in the churches where they grew up from God and so rather than rebelling against the hurtful legalism they rebel against God who interestingly enough is the one who can heal them of their hurt.

I agree though that this is often a natural part of the progression of faith. When people are really loved for who they are, and they have any level of openness to God then God can do amazing things in their lives and bring them to healing.[/QUOTE]


I am thinking the same thing. It is so sad that some want to settle their own hurts by arguing and really sometimes insulting others.
Sounding radical to them I know but, "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday today and forever".
Forget the people and just accept the words of our Lord.
We have two that are finally coming out of this type of thinking and blaming and are near to loving our Lord as we must.

[Anne and Dwayne Hood]

Several years ago, one of our daughters went through a time that it seemed she hated the COTN and therefore, we were linked in with her feelings. She would even criticise my hair, but now, she does not remember any of the things she said to me. She attends the COTN now. But, they can really give parents a hard time, when they go through times like this. But, we have to give them unconditional love, even if they are breaking our hearts. She was going through a time, that nothing in the church, and how things were being done satisfied her. But, in fact, being the pastor's daughter, she was given the opportunity to endeavor to make some of those changes...things that she had the chance to see, if her way would work or not. Others could have changed things also, and tried new ways, but no one else, seemed to be dissatisfied, like she was. We let different things be done, considering that, "we had had our day."
The present pastor is several years younger than we are. He wanted us to come back and attend the church, but he would come to Dwayne for awhile, about things he wanted to change. Dwayne finally got it across to him, that that was not necessary. One time, I said to him, "You are the pastor,now."