Offering Boxes

[Jeremy D. Scott]

So yesterday was our first day to use our new offering boxes. We have eliminated the regular offering time and passing of the plates.

We are focused this January on the themes of giving and receiving. On the first Sunday (Epiphany Sunday), we looked at the rendezvous of the magi and the Christ child noting the order of what happened when they "found Christ":
1. They were overwhelmed with joy; so they
2. They bowed down and worshiped him; and in doing so
3. They gave of that which was treasure to them
...and concluded that giving is an act of worship.

Yesterday (Baptism of the Lord), we looked at Christ's baptism in Matthew and the giving of Christ, God's only son, to the world (and supplemented the passage in Matthew with John 3:16-17 and Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his only son, Isaac in Genesis 22). We concluded that God's offering to us was all that he had ("his only son"), and therefore our offering to him should be the same.

Anyway, I think people are excited to re-think what it means to give. One aspect of the offering boxes was to challenge us to remember (if we ever thought of it in the first place) the different meanings of "bringing an offering" to God. It will take time and thought to re-train ourselves in the way we receive offerings.

If I remember, I'll update you as time goes by.

(By the way...our offering was over twice it's normal amount yesterday...not sure yet how to dissect what that means.)

Oh, and no laughing about the craftsmanship. It was my first woodworking. :basic04

[Kevin Rector]

So what is the process? Do people get up whenever they want to go to the box? Do the drop their offering on the way out? Do they do it on the way in? Is the box passed instead of a plate (jk). Is there a time in the service when everything stops while people go to the box?

I like the idea. One question though, how do you plan to keep this from becoming as routine as the offering plate in the service? Is there a theological push behind the change, or are you just wanting to mix things up a bit?

[Dennis M. Scott]

I think you should distribute the boxes throughout the sanctuary, so people can discreetly offer their gifts as they enter or exit, in a personal time of worship.

I also hope you lined the boxes with high sounding brass so that it will make a loud noise when they throw their coins in as hard as they can.

As for the workmanship. Proud of you, son. Nice boxes, too.

[Billy Cox]

I also hope you lined the boxes with high sounding brass so that it will make a loud noise when they throw their coins in as hard as they can.


Actually, the sound of coins in the offering box would be an audible testimony that someone old enough to get paid with paper is only giving coins.

[Billy Cox]

Since we are on the theology board, I would like to pose the following observation:

We refer to the gifts of the Magi or the 'tithe' given by Abraham as Biblical support for giving to the church, but we conveniently omit other parts of the stories that do not so neatly support our point of view.

1. The Magi made a one-time gift to Jesus' parents...not to the temple, not to Herod.

2. Abraham made a one-time tithe to Melchizidek from the spoils of battle. For an already rich man to give ten percent of things stolen from recently dead enemies is not exactly the portrait of generosity or sacrificial giving.

I am all in favor of anything that can make the tithe less like a monthly financial obligation. I'm still waiting to see something authentic.

[Jeremy D. Scott]

So what is the process? Do people get up whenever they want to go to the box? Do the drop their offering on the way out? Do they do it on the way in? Is the box passed instead of a plate (jk). Is there a time in the service when everything stops while people go to the box?

I like the idea. One question though, how do you plan to keep this from becoming as routine as the offering plate in the service? Is there a theological push behind the change, or are you just wanting to mix things up a bit?

Yes, we are learning to get up whenever it feels appropriate to give. Yesterday, most of us gave during the musical worship time. But people can give on their way out. There are four boxes - one on either side of the sanctuary at the front, and two by the doors at the back on the way out.

But many times will be appropriate. We still practice a "passing of the peace" (which, for many still turns into "fellowship time"). There is a lot of milling around at that point.

We have always sung the doxology right after receiving the offering, but now we'll sing it at the end of the worship gathering - another appropriate time to give.

When we receive communion, our practice is most often to come forward to receive the elements. If I weren't the one holding the elements for reception, I would most certainly use my trip back to my seat as a time to give. We were worried of the danger of it looking like we were "paying" for the reception of God's grace, but I think we'll be okay. Giving is indeed an act of worship, as an act of thanks-giving and joy for what God has done for us.

Yes, the worship committee talked about the issue of any which way we give and receive offerings becoming routine. There's definitely that possibility. Yet, both the time in which we take to adjust to this format and the fact that it is very new for our tradition (though in no way a new concept) will hopefully lead us to be intentionally thinking about what we're doing. When a tradition is changed, we are forced to think of why it was tradition in the first place.

Yes, we were wanting to mix things up a bit, but there are also some theological and liturgical considerations:
- There's just something about getting up and out of your seat to bring an offering. With the plate-passing, it seems to be even more routine. You barely have to lift your hand to give.
- The plate-passing is automatic - you don't have to remember that we're going to take an offering with that format - it comes right to you. But with these boxes, one has to be intentional about giving, and we're hoping that intentional thinking will lead to more authentic giving (not necessarily higher amounts, but with more thanksgiving).
- With the plate-passing format, there is an implication - regardless of intent - that everyone is to give. Who hasn't felt a twinge of guilt when the offering plate gets to you and you've forgotten to write the check, or you simply have nothing to give that day? Giving out of guilt is not conducive to authentic giving. We want everyone to feel welcome to give, not out of obligation (though we've been pretty clear that giving as one is able is an obligation to those who've entrusted themselves to this local community in membership).

I think there were other things that aren't coming to mind right now.

[Jeremy D. Scott]

Since we are on the theology board, I would like to pose the following observation:

We refer to the gifts of the Magi or the 'tithe' given by Abraham as Biblical support for giving to the church, but we conveniently omit other parts of the stories that do not so neatly support our point of view.

No, that's not what I said we concluded from the story. I was pretty specific about what we observed:
1. The Magi, having found Christ, were overwhelmed with joy;
2. They knelt down and paid him homage
3. They then opened up what they treasured and gave of it.

I didn't say anything about giving to the Church. And I realize that I only summarized the sermon here on Naznet, but it was very clear that Sunday that I wasn't talking simply about giving of our finances then (I said it numerous times throughout the sermon).

However, I don't think it's an erroneous or unsafe conclusion that giving to the corporate Christian community is a better logical conclusion than the individual's own choice as to how to direct funds to and for Christ.

Our prayer each week for our offering goes something like this:
"God, thanks for the opportunity and ability to give. As we give now together, help this local body of Christ to know how to best distribute these funds for the advancement and keeping of your Kingdom."

As an individual family unit, our theology of Christian community tells my wife and I that we'd rather let the community decide how to use our resources than for us to make that decision on our own. Of course we give to other things and people sometimes, but the majority of what we give is best used when given to the local Christian community (our church). This is actually what I believe to be a strength of the Church of the Nazarene as a whole. Sure, there are things I would change in the system, but overall, I appreciate how we share in the greater workings of the Kingdom.

1. The Magi made a one-time gift to Jesus' parents...not to the temple, not to Herod.

Yep, and yesterday, we talked about the multiple ways in which we can give and the multiple resources that we can give:
- to those in need
- to charitable and compassionate ministries
- time
- assets
- skills (both career and of hobbys)

We noted that in our society and culture (the US), the two most treasured things are probably 1. money; 2. time, and that if we don't find ourselves giving up either of these, we'd do well to consider exactly what it is we're giving and whether or not we're truly giving up treasures (or if we're truly "sacrificing" as a thank-ful response).

2. Abraham made a one-time tithe to Melchizidek from the spoils of battle. For an already rich man to give ten percent of things stolen from recently dead enemies is not exactly the portrait of generosity or sacrificial giving.

It's been my biblical understanding that tithing is a poor standard for the follower of Christ, particularly the American. But now I'm robbing from the Sundays left in this month.

[Billy Cox]

Yes, the worship committee talked about the issue of any which way we give and receive offerings becoming routine. There's definitely that possibility. Yet, both the time in which we take to adjust to this format and the fact that it is very new for our tradition (though in no way a new concept) will hopefully lead us to be intentionally thinking about what we're doing. When a tradition is changed, we are forced to think of why it was tradition in the first place.

Yes, we were wanting to mix things up a bit, but there are also some theological and liturgical considerations:
- There's just something about getting up and out of your seat to bring an offering. With the plate-passing, it seems to be even more routine. You barely have to lift your hand to give.
- The plate-passing is automatic - you don't have to remember that we're going to take an offering with that format - it comes right to you. But with these boxes, one has to be intentional about giving, and we're hoping that intentional thinking will lead to more authentic giving (not necessarily higher amounts, but with more thanksgiving).
- With the plate-passing format, there is an implication - regardless of intent - that everyone is to give. Who hasn't felt a twinge of guilt when the offering plate gets to you and you've forgotten to write the check, or you simply have nothing to give that day? Giving out of guilt is not conducive to authentic giving. We want everyone to feel welcome to give, not out of obligation (though we've been pretty clear that giving as one is able is an obligation to those who've entrusted themselves to this local community in membership).

I think there were other things that aren't coming to mind right now.

Congratulations on changing the offering. A few years ago the pastoral staff at the church I attend took the opportunity while the senior pastor was away on sabbatical to install an offering box in our foyer and dispense with passing the plates. It was a case study in the worst way to mess with the church's revenue stream.

Is it wise to build a theology around something that will become less and less common as people start wondering why the only check they write on a regular basis is to the church?

[Jeremy D. Scott]

Is it wise to build a theology around something that will become less and less common as people start wondering why the only check they write on a regular basis is to the church?

That is a great question.

With rare exception, the only check my wife and I write each week is for our offering. If I were to look in our check book, I would bet that 80-90% of our checks have the same payee: North Street Community Chapel.

I've been asked numerous times if we thought we might get an online giving system some how, or even a debit kiosk at the church. I just don't know. There's something about bringing an offering.

I struggle with this question.

Nonetheless, as of right now, those who are giving in our church expect to bring something, and we'll do what we can to make that as much of an act of worship as we can for them.

[Anne and Dwayne Hood]

I guess some were ashamed to not be seen walking to wherever to put some offering in. I would probably give mine to a child to put in one of the boxes.

[David Parker]

It's been my biblical understanding that tithing is a poor standard for the follower of Christ, particularly the American. But now I'm robbing from the Sundays left in this month.

Would love to hear your thoughts...when you are ready.

[Barbara Moulton]

I fully respect churches that have chosen to go this route for their offering. As I have stated before, it's not a change I would initiate at our church, however if the majority of people wanted it then I would listen.

In all honest, I guess I have never really really understood why dropping our offerings in a box in the foyer is seen as a better way than making it truly part of our communal worship practice.

Regardless, for those churches that do use this method for offering, how do you let visitors know about the boxes? Or do you not tell them so they won't think that you are only interested in their money? If the latter, at what point do you decide the visitor has become a regular attender and fill them in?

It seems to me that if we are just put a notice in the bulletin about the boxes, people might miss it (I know that not everyone reads the bulletin cover to cover).

If you make an announcement that this is how offering is done then why not just take up the offering in the traditional manner?

I am trying to envision a time of worship when people are leaving at different points in time to go put their offering in the box. Isn't that a little obtrusive?

Honestly...seeking information here...trying to understand the reason why churches feel this is a change that is needed and how it actually works in practicality.

[Bruce Carriker]

Is it wise to build a theology around something that will become less and less common as people start wondering why the only check they write on a regular basis is to the church?

Question, Billy. If you're going to attach a negative connotation to writing a check to the church, what WOULD you suggest? Perhaps we should have those debit card swipe machines spread around the sanctuary. Would that be better? Or perhaps we could encourage everyone to sign up for auto-debit and just withdraw it from their accounts each month.

[Paula Karr]

I've been asked numerous times if we thought we might get an online giving system some how, or even a debit kiosk at the church. I just don't know. There's something about bringing an offering.

I struggle with this question.


Our church offers an online giving option. We get paid every two weeks, and if we're either not able to go to church, or if we're out of town, we love the online option.

A co-worker who also attends our church said, "Since our tithe check is the only check we write any more, I've often thought of how nice it would be to to the online thing. But I keep thinking, 'But if the people around me don't ever see me put anything in the offering, they'll think we just don't give.'"

I laughed as I told her how we'd been liberated from that thought process. Now if I see someone just pass the offering bag without putting anything in it, I think, "Cool. Someone else who does their giving online!"

In all seriousness, the "tithes" used to be given in material goods or harvest bounty. In modern times, it became money -- the more common means of exchanging one thing of value for another. IMHO, paying online is just one more step along the path of keeping up with the times.

[Terri Knoll]

It seems to me that if we are just put a notice in the bulletin about the boxes, people might miss it (I know that not everyone reads the bulletin cover to cover).



sure they do...during the pastors sermon :basic05

[Glenda Harvey]

Regardless, for those churches that do use this method for offering, how do you let visitors know about the boxes? Or do you not tell them so they won't think that you are only interested in their money? If the latter, at what point do you decide the visitor has become a regular attender and fill them in?

Our Pastor always makes a point saying before the offering that we do not expect our visitors to give. I'm sure that some feel that when the offering plate is passed by them they are still expected to give. This method would make visitors feel less obligated. Tithing is really for regular members and attendees.

[Jon Twitchell]

Our Pastor always makes a point saying before the offering that we do not expect our visitors to give. I'm sure that some feel that when the offering plate is passed by them they are still expected to give. This method would make visitors feel less obligated. Tithing is really for regular members and attendees.

(emphasis mine)

I'm not prepared to "strongly disagree" with you, but I do at least want to challenge that thought--at least a little bit. And we've all heard someone say it before...and many of us have said it ourselves.

But why is tithing for regular members and attendees any more than any other part of worship? We would never say that the hymns are just for members, or that prayer time is just for members, or the sermon just for regular attendees.

Isn't the giving of our offerings just as much an act of worship as any of those other things? Why would we want to deprive people of participating in that act of worship by suggesting that it's not for them?

Again...I'm not trying to be disagreeable... just to throw out some thoughts that I've been thinking about lately.

[Hans Deventer]

But why is tithing for regular members and attendees any more than any other part of worship? We would never say that the hymns are just for members, or that prayer time is just for members, or the sermon just for regular attendees.

Isn't the giving of our offerings just as much an act of worship as any of those other things? Why would we want to deprive people of participating in that act of worship by suggesting that it's not for them?

Because when I have people over at my place, I don't ask them to pay for my mortgage either. :basic03

But more seriously, of course all of life is a part of worship. I hate the idea that worship is only what we do in church. Hence, I see no reason why offerings specifically need to take place in church.

I frankly would not want to have any offerings in church at all, but that has perhaps to do with the Dutch situation. We have no cheques anymore, which means that all we get in the offering is cash. Now it is poor stewardship to give a lot of cash in an offering (that would not be tax deductable), and thankfully, most of our people understand that perfectly :basic05, so we don't get much money in the offering anyway. But for those that think the few coins they put in the offering in church have anything to do with what God expects of them regarding stewardship, I'd rather take away the confusion. It doesn't. (For most of them, that is)

[Barbara Moulton]

(emphasis mine)

I'm not prepared to "strongly disagree" with you, but I do at least want to challenge that thought--at least a little bit. And we've all heard someone say it before...and many of us have said it ourselves.

But why is tithing for regular members and attendees any more than any other part of worship? We would never say that the hymns are just for members, or that prayer time is just for members, or the sermon just for regular attendees.

Isn't the giving of our offerings just as much an act of worship as any of those other things? Why would we want to deprive people of participating in that act of worship by suggesting that it's not for them?

Again...I'm not trying to be disagreeable... just to throw out some thoughts that I've been thinking about lately.


I agree. If we truly believe that giving to the Lord is an act of worship (which I do) then why would we exclude anyone?

And telling people that giving is only for members and attenders. Do we then give guidelines as to when someone moves from being a visitor to being attender?

How do people know when they are regular enough to participate?

My concern through all of this is that we could create the idea that receiving the offering is a negative thing that should be done in an unobtrusive, almost secretive manner. It almost gives the idea of...gee...sorry we have to do this guys but its time for the offering.

We don't hide the offering in our church. We stand up and say a prayer together before we take it up. We begin our prayer by saying together:

"As an act of worship, I bring my tithes and offerings..."

What we do with our money is absoutely huge in our spiritual life. This is because giving to the Lord is a tangible way that we can demonstrate trust and faith. If we've got bills to pay yet we still put our offering in the plate, we truly our showing to God that we surrender our finances into His care.

We encourage and try to model joyful and faithful giving in our church. And in a church with an average attendance of 37 we average over $8,000 a month in tithes and offerings..which is very good I think. We have never had to plead with the people to give more to pay the bills. It just happens. The only thing we highlight each week is the money that we raise for missions. We have reached 42% of our goal for 2008 already in missions!

Our church has embraced the offering as a joyful part of communal worship.

I like it that way myself.

[Eric Frey]

I like the idea. One question though, how do you plan to keep this from becoming as routine as the offering plate in the service?

What is the problem with routine? I think life is about developing a routine of grace. Everyone seems to see routine as a bad thing, but I think it is the routines of life that shape us as a people of God.

[Eric Frey]

I think you should distribute the boxes throughout the sanctuary, so people can discreetly offer their gifts as they enter or exit, in a personal time of worship.


Except that our coming together is not about personal times of worship. It is about community and corporate worship. We can have personal worship times all day every day. The Lord's Day is unique in that we join together publicly and corporately worshiping God in the proclamation of Good News and in sharing in the Means of Grace.

[Jeremy D. Scott]

I think you should distribute the boxes throughout the sanctuary, so people can discreetly offer their gifts as they enter or exit, in a personal time of worship.

They are throughout the sanctuary, but not necessarily to encourage discreet giving, though there have been a number of times when someone has come throughout the week at some point to bring an offering they just couldn't hold on to any longer. I guess this gives them a unique opportunity to do that in the sanctuary, as a personal time of worship through giving.

I guess some were ashamed to not be seen walking to wherever to put some offering in. I would probably give mine to a child to put in one of the boxes.

I hope and believe that your guess is wrong. There was no one with a clipboard or anything to make sure everyone gave.

I fully respect churches that have chosen to go this route for their offering. As I have stated before, it's not a change I would initiate at our church, however if the majority of people wanted it then I would listen.

In all honest, I guess I have never really really understood why dropping our offerings in a box in the foyer is seen as a better way than making it truly part of our communal worship practice.

Ours are not in the foyer...I said this was an act of worship, and we were pretty blatant in fashioning these for the sanctuary, our main place of worship.

Regardless, for those churches that do use this method for offering, how do you let visitors know about the boxes? Or do you not tell them so they won't think that you are only interested in their money? If the latter, at what point do you decide the visitor has become a regular attender and fill them in?

It seems to me that if we are just put a notice in the bulletin about the boxes, people might miss it (I know that not everyone reads the bulletin cover to cover).

We no longer use paper bulletins. I found that they were a waste of resources - my time, as the only working employee of the church, and money (paper & printing).

If you make an announcement that this is how offering is done then why not just take up the offering in the traditional manner?

Other than the first few weeks, we don't plan on making an announcement about it every week. We limit our "announcements," which I find to be even more distracting from worship.

Leonard Sweet asks the question that, if Starbucks can expect those who enter their sanctuaries of coffee to know the lingo and procedures, why can't the local church? If people want to be somewhere...they'll learn the pertinent language, traditions, etc.

I am trying to envision a time of worship when people are leaving at different points in time to go put their offering in the box. Isn't that a little obtrusive?

We encourage people to move around during times of worship. Surely we have times of prayer and worship that are obviously conducive to quiet and reflection and non-movement, but for the most part, especially during musical worship, passing of the peace, and communion, there is a good amount of movement in the sanctuary.

During musical worship, most stand, some sit, some clap, some sway (but not many, and not all the time). So no...movement is not obtrusive.

Honestly...seeking information here...trying to understand the reason why churches feel this is a change that is needed and how it actually works in practicality.

I agree. If we truly believe that giving to the Lord is an act of worship (which I do) then why would we exclude anyone?

And telling people that giving is only for members and attenders. Do we then give guidelines as to when someone moves from being a visitor to being attender?

How do people know when they are regular enough to participate?

When we receive members, they have been told a number of things and understandings of what it means to become a member of a local church. And yes, giving is one of them.

My concern through all of this is that we could create the idea that receiving the offering is a negative thing that should be done in an unobtrusive, almost secretive manner. It almost gives the idea of...gee...sorry we have to do this guys but its time for the offering.

Barbara, would you please go back and read what I wrote about what we're doing? This is a pretty cheap assumption, and in fact the very opposite of what we are hoping will happen:

The main impetus for even changing our format was so that giving and receiving offerings would become even more an act of worship. You're assuming that we've only thought of new people in our midst in making this change. Sure, we considered them. But our main consideration was that we wanted those of us already here to become better worshipers.

Truth be told, we have a visitor or guest family maybe once a month. It's not a huge issue for us right now.

We're trying to swallow the realization that the worship gathering really isn't the best lobby (entrance) for the church. And I imagine that would be a good realization for all local churches to chew on.

We don't hide the offering in our church. We stand up and say a prayer together before we take it up. We begin our prayer by saying together:

"As an act of worship, I bring my tithes and offerings..."

What we do with our money is absoutely huge in our spiritual life. This is because giving to the Lord is a tangible way that we can demonstrate trust and faith. If we've got bills to pay yet we still put our offering in the plate, we truly our showing to God that we surrender our finances into His care.

We encourage and try to model joyful and faithful giving in our church. And in a church with an average attendance of 37 we average over $8,000 a month in tithes and offerings..which is very good I think. We have never had to plead with the people to give more to pay the bills. It just happens. The only thing we highlight each week is the money that we raise for missions. We have reached 42% of our goal for 2008 already in missions!

Our church has embraced the offering as a joyful part of communal worship.

I like it that way myself.

That's wonderful, Barbara. I'm glad that your community is able to worship in this way.

We did not bring these boxes into use in order to increase the numbers of our giving...I'm not sure if or where you got that idea. In fact, I was clear to say in our worship gathering that our financial numbers are better than they have ever been for this almost 30-year old local church and that this month of focusing on "giving and receiving" is not in response to a need for money. If you felt I meant this, it was your own assumption.

I'd just ask that you to consider that that offering boxes may also be conducive to joyful, faithful, and corporate giving.

I certainly didn't post this to say that everyone else is doing it wrong. I was simply idea-sharing.

[Billy Cox]

In all seriousness, the "tithes" used to be given in material goods or harvest bounty. In modern times, it became money -- the more common means of exchanging one thing of value for another. IMHO, paying online is just one more step along the path of keeping up with the times.

I can just imagine the leaders of the temple balking at the idea of accepting cash in the temple offering. "Compared with a bushel of grain or a live animal, coins just don't seem as real."

[Billy Cox]

I don't have a problem with writing checks, it's just that the church doesn't need *more* ways to look archaic.

I personally would prefer some kind of online form of giving. Considering how much time we spend apologizing for receiving donations, I doubt that card swipe machines are going be accepted in most churches any time soon. (plus they cost money)

Changing liturgy to reflect new means of giving will have to be done by people who are not susceptible to knee-jerk theology.

[Barbara Moulton]

Thanks Jeremy.

I want to clarify that many of my comments were not directed towards your descriptions of how your church has changed the offering procedure. They really were general musings about how churches perceive the taking of offering in themselves. I did have some questions about the logistics...thanks for answering them. I didn't for a moment think that you were trying to do this to get more money. And I am very sorry if you think that I made some cheap assumptions. I think I tried to put too many random thoughts into my posts.

My thoughts about "new people" primarily were in response to the post which described a church in which people were actually told that only members and regular attenders were to participate. I am concerned that some do seem to come to the offering time almost apologetically.

"We are really sorry we have to ask you for money."

Rather than...

"Let's joyfully worship through our offerings."

In my enthusiasm to post on this concern, I introduced thoughts that weren't relevant to what you are doing and I apologize for the confusion. And I certainly NEVER thought that you were posting to say that we were doing it wrong...anymore than my descriptions of how we do were to say that others were doing it wrong.

Blessings,
Barbara

[Billy Cox]

Why would we want to deprive people of participating in that act of worship by suggesting that it's not for them?


If a person knows the church game well enough to see giving as an act of worship, the pre-offering disclaimer is not going to dissuade them.

Conversely, if a person's feels compelled to toss a few bucks into the plate, is it really an act of worship?

[Jon Twitchell]

If a person knows the church game well enough to see giving as an act of worship, the pre-offering disclaimer is not going to dissuade them.

Conversely, if a person's feels compelled to toss a few bucks into the plate, is it really an act of worship?

I don't understand what you mean by "church game." If you're implying that me calling "offering" worship is part of a game or ploy to get more money... well...I'm not quite sure how to respond. But I'm guessing that's not what you meant...

If you simply mean that most outsiders don't see giving as worship, then you might be right... but at the same time, aren't they looking for a connection with God? Aren't they coming because He's drawing them to Him? Isn't it reasonable to assume that He will prompt them whether or not they should give without us getting in the way?

I just think that, for me at least, prefacing the offering by saying, "If you don't attend here regularly, please don't feel obligated to give" would be a form of apologizing for our worship, and somehow allowing my physical voice to intrude upon how the Holy Spirit may be leading this visitor.

We don't give in order to pay the bills (or the mortgage :D ). This is not some sort of "necessary evil" that we apologize for... it's an opportunity to worship God.

Now... having said that, let me clarify...

1) Like Jeremy, I don't have a lot of visitors on any sort of regular basis, so I don't speak from any practical position on the topic... just my personal convictions of what I think I would/n't feel comfortable saying.

2) I don't have a problem with Jeremy's church doing what they are doing. It appears to be well thought out, with theological backing behind the concept of "bringing" an offering, and an intentional discussion about how this connects to our worship.

3) On the other hand, I would probably have a problem if my church wanted to do boxes in the foyer...if their reasoning was "to make people less uncomfortable," or "to save time in the service," or "because another church I went to did it, and it was really cool."

What's particularly funny (or ironic) to me is that on the same Sunday that Jeremy talked to his church about the Magi bringing a gift, and used that text to launch into a different form of giving... I spoke on the same text, and commented on churches that do offering boxes in the foyer--for the reasons that I mentioned above (#3). We ended the service by making a big deal of our offering...as an act of worship... and that the ushers were helping us bring our gifts to the King.

Kind of funny how Jeremy and I (two different pastors, but with similar background(age, region, etc) and liturgical leanings) would take the same text, deal with it in a similar manner--but end up with two different practical responses. :)

[Jeremy D. Scott]

What's particularly funny (or ironic) to me is that on the same Sunday that Jeremy talked to his church about the Magi bringing a gift, and used that text to launch into a different form of giving... I spoke on the same text, and commented on churches that do offering boxes in the foyer--for the reasons that I mentioned above (#3). We ended the service by making a big deal of our offering...as an act of worship... and that the ushers were helping us bring our gifts to the King.

Kind of funny how Jeremy and I (two different pastors, but with similar background(age, region, etc) and liturgical leanings) would take the same text, deal with it in a similar manner--but end up with two different practical responses. :)

Hmm...maybe we both participate in the same lectionary website. :eek:

The boxes were introduced this past Sunday. Two weeks ago (the Sunday about the magi), we just practiced "coming forward" to bring our offerings by placing them in an empty cardboard box that I had wrapped up like a Christmas present while we sang a song of worship.

[Jeremy D. Scott]

Thanks Jeremy.

I want to clarify that many of my comments were not directed towards your descriptions of how your church has changed the offering procedure. They really were general musings about how churches perceive the taking of offering in themselves. I did have some questions about the logistics...thanks for answering them. I didn't for a moment think that you were trying to do this to get more money. And I am very sorry if you think that I made some cheap assumptions. I think I tried to put too many random thoughts into my posts.

My thoughts about "new people" primarily were in response to the post which described a church in which people were actually told that only members and regular attenders were to participate. I am concerned that some do seem to come to the offering time almost apologetically.

"We are really sorry we have to ask you for money."

Rather than...

"Let's joyfully worship through our offerings."

In my enthusiasm to post on this concern, I introduced thoughts that weren't relevant to what you are doing and I apologize for the confusion. And I certainly NEVER thought that you were posting to say that we were doing it wrong...anymore than my descriptions of how we do were to say that others were doing it wrong.

Blessings,
Barbara

Thank you, Barbara.

Part of the hindrance of online communication is distinguishing who said what and when and to whom and about what. I didn't do that very well here.

Thanks for the affirmation.

[Barbara Moulton]

Thank you, Barbara.

Part of the hindrance of online communication is distinguishing who said what and when and to whom and about what. I didn't do that very well here.

Thanks for the affirmation.


Thanks so much for responding. You are right about online communication.


Blessings,
Barbara

[Jeremy D. Scott]

I just think that, for me at least, prefacing the offering by saying, "If you don't attend here regularly, please don't feel obligated to give" would be a form of apologizing for our worship, and somehow allowing my physical voice to intrude upon how the Holy Spirit may be leading this visitor.

We don't give in order to pay the bills (or the mortgage :D ). This is not some sort of "necessary evil" that we apologize for... it's an opportunity to worship God.

I wonder if this kind of thinking (making sure that visitors don't feel obligated to give) is in response to the images of most televangelists and their ways?

But I guess it's not limited to television. I'll never forget the church down the street from where I lived in KC, KS that had a huge banner hanging from the front of the building that said, "Give God his money!" I'm not joking.

Maybe we just need to keep loving people, using our money well (in good faith and stewardship), hope that people will notice, and trust that they distinguish our church from those "other" churches.

[Scott Hilton]

Jeremy,

I do not know the size of your church, so I am not sure how this question will actually pertain to this, but I will ask anyway. How has the role of the usher in service changed with the offering boxes ?

Blessings
Scott

[Billy Cox]

I don't understand what you mean by "church game." If you're implying that me calling "offering" worship is part of a game or ploy to get more money... well...I'm not quite sure how to respond. But I'm guessing that's not what you meant...

Right... My point was just to suggest that regular attenders are more likely to understand the theological significance of the offering whereas an outsider (or a cynic) might think of as passing the hat so that the preacher has some grocery money for the week.

If you simply mean that most outsiders don't see giving as worship, then you might be right... but at the same time, aren't they looking for a connection with God? Aren't they coming because He's drawing them to Him? Isn't it reasonable to assume that He will prompt them whether or not they should give without us getting in the way?

While I believe in prevenient grace, I do not think that outsiders attend church because they are consciously seeking God. I compare it to the story of Peter and John healing the crippled beggar outside the temple in the book of Acts. The beggar sought money, but Peter and John healed him.

Outsiders may come to the church seeking or a children's program or seeking to widen their sphere of relationships, but if they hang around long enough, they may just find something far more life-changing.



I just think that, for me at least, prefacing the offering by saying, "If you don't attend here regularly, please don't feel obligated to give" would be a form of apologizing for our worship, and somehow allowing my physical voice to intrude upon how the Holy Spirit may be leading this visitor.

We don't give in order to pay the bills (or the mortgage :D ). This is not some sort of "necessary evil" that we apologize for... it's an opportunity to worship God.

Yeah, I think we cut ourselves off at the knees when we do something on purpose every Sunday and then apologize for it, but I am nobody. I don't make those decisions and it doesn't bother me enough to break fellowship over it.


1) Like Jeremy, I don't have a lot of visitors on any sort of regular basis, so I don't speak from any practical position on the topic... just my personal convictions of what I think I would/n't feel comfortable saying.

At the church I attend, we have lots of visitors and we do the pre-offering apology every Sunday, and your observations are consistent with what I have observed.


2) I don't have a problem with Jeremy's church doing what they are doing. It appears to be well thought out, with theological backing behind the concept of "bringing" an offering, and an intentional discussion about how this connects to our worship.

Sure, and I appreciate doing things for theological reasons and not just because John Maxwell or Stan Toler told us to do it.

[Jeremy D. Scott]

Jeremy,

I do not know the size of your church, so I am not sure how this question will actually pertain to this, but I will ask anyway. How has the role of the usher in service changed with the offering boxes ?

Blessings
Scott

First off, there are usually somewhere between 40-55 of us in worship.

Ushers have been used only to receive the offering. So they've been fired. :eek:

But seriously, that was all they did. We have others who know that they're "in charge" in case of an emergency or the speaker needs water or something. And we have "greeters" who are on the lookout for guests or visitors, though this is an area in which we still need improvement.

[Terri Knoll]

I love the new signature!

[Glenda Harvey]

(emphasis mine)

I'm not prepared to "strongly disagree" with you, but I do at least want to challenge that thought--at least a little bit. And we've all heard someone say it before...and many of us have said it ourselves.

But why is tithing for regular members and attendees any more than any other part of worship? We would never say that the hymns are just for members, or that prayer time is just for members, or the sermon just for regular attendees.

Isn't the giving of our offerings just as much an act of worship as any of those other things? Why would we want to deprive people of participating in that act of worship by suggesting that it's not for them?

Again...I'm not trying to be disagreeable... just to throw out some thoughts that I've been thinking about lately.

Jon,

I agree that if a guest wants to give they should be welcome to do so as long as it is not because they feel it is expected of them. People give to a Church because they want to support that ministry. Often time guests need to come around a few times before they are really certain that it is ministry they want to support. I don't really have any strong feelings about how offerings should be done but the method of having offering boxes placed in various places throughout the Church is a good solution for not making people feel that they have to put something in the offering plate because the people around them might notice if they don't.

[Mike Schutz]

And in a church with an average attendance of 37 we average over $8,000 a month in tithes and offerings..which is very good I think.

Wow. That is either very good, or we are doing even worse than I thought. (And I thought we were doing poorly.) We are averaging 160 in attendance, and just over $12,000 a month in tithes and offerings. Admittedly, with the exception of our senior adults, most of the folks in attendance are new to church, young adults with young children.

Unlike some folks who are involved in this thread, we have quite a few visitors every Sunday. In our worship service, I do not APOLOGIZE for the offering, although what I say is an "apology," that is, a purposeful, logical explanation. I explain that our offering is a key aspect of our worship, and while everyone is welcome to participate in response to the generosity of God, this aspect of worship is a commitment that those who consider Avon Grove their church home have made in order to support our ministry in our community and around the world.

Of course, I have NO idea if this is the best way to do this. After all, we are only averaging $75 per month per worshipper, while Barbara's church is averaging $216 per worshipper.

I appreciate everyone who exegetes their community and attempts to create a worshipful environment.

[Bob Carabbio]

In Texas there is the "Baptist General Convention of Texas" and affiliated with is the "Fellowship of Cowboy Churches" - now over 200 of 'em in the North Texas area. Some are Big (the one our band plays at runs about 1500 on a Sunday in two services, but most are in the 50-100 range.

They all use a miniature wooden church building (or two) to receive the offering which is simply mentioned in the service. Guest cards, prayer requests, and requests for pastoral visits go in there too. I noticed that they're used pretty much "whenever" - another feature of the Cowboy Churches is coffee and donuts in the back of the sanctuary which are always available before, during and after the actual meetings, so folks'll get up and refill at any time during the service.

[Barbara Moulton]

It think it is exceptional. Our people give strong financial support to this church.

We are blessed.


Wow. That is either very good, or we are doing even worse than I thought. (And I thought we were doing poorly.) We are averaging 160 in attendance, and just over $12,000 a month in tithes and offerings. Admittedly, with the exception of our senior adults, most of the folks in attendance are new to church, young adults with young children.

Unlike some folks who are involved in this thread, we have quite a few visitors every Sunday. In our worship service, I do not APOLOGIZE for the offering, although what I say is an "apology," that is, a purposeful, logical explanation. I explain that our offering is an key aspect of our worship, and while everyone is welcome to participate in response to the generosity of God, this aspect of worship is an element that those who consider Avon Grove their church home have made in order to support our ministry in our community and around the world.

Of course, I have NO idea if this is the best way to do this. After all, we are only averaging $75 per month per worshipper, while Barbara's church is averaging $216 per worshipper.

I appreciate everyone who exegetes their community and attempts to create a worshipful environment.

[Billy Cox]

Wow. That is either very good, or we are doing even worse than I thought. (And I thought we were doing poorly.) We are averaging 160 in attendance, and just over $12,000 a month in tithes and offerings. Admittedly, with the exception of our senior adults, most of the folks in attendance are new to church, young adults with young children.

Unlike some folks who are involved in this thread, we have quite a few visitors every Sunday. In our worship service, I do not APOLOGIZE for the offering, although what I say is an "apology," that is, a purposeful, logical explanation. I explain that our offering is an key aspect of our worship, and while everyone is welcome to participate in response to the generosity of God, this aspect of worship is an element that those who consider Avon Grove their church home have made in order to support our ministry in our community and around the world.

Of course, I have NO idea if this is the best way to do this. After all, we are only averaging $75 per month per worshipper, while Barbara's church is averaging $216 per worshipper.

I appreciate everyone who exegetes their community and attempts to create a worshipful environment.

In a small sampling of people, one family can skew the numbers in either direction. Also, if the church receives one a one-time financial windfall, it can inflate the averages.

Giving per household is a more meaningful metric than giving per worshipper since tithes are almost always paid by household, and not by each individual attending the church.

[Glenda Harvey]

I have read several articles in recent years about the decline in tithing among people who consider themselves Christians and attend Church. It would be interesting to know if there is any change one direction or the other in the ammount of offering received in Churches that switch from the traditional form of receiving offering to offering boxes.

[Susan Unger]

So yesterday was our first day to use our new offering boxes. We have eliminated the regular offering time and passing of the plates.

We are focused this January on the themes of giving and receiving. On the first Sunday (Epiphany Sunday), we looked at the rendezvous of the magi and the Christ child noting the order of what happened when they "found Christ":
1. They were overwhelmed with joy; so they
2. They bowed down and worshiped him; and in doing so
3. They gave of that which was treasure to them
...and concluded that giving is an act of worship.

Yesterday (Baptism of the Lord), we looked at Christ's baptism in Matthew and the giving of Christ, God's only son, to the world (and supplemented the passage in Matthew with John 3:16-17 and Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his only son, Isaac in Genesis 22). We concluded that God's offering to us was all that he had ("his only son"), and therefore our offering to him should be the same.

Anyway, I think people are excited to re-think what it means to give. One aspect of the offering boxes was to challenge us to remember (if we ever thought of it in the first place) the different meanings of "bringing an offering" to God. It will take time and thought to re-train ourselves in the way we receive offerings.

If I remember, I'll update you as time goes by.

(By the way...our offering was over twice it's normal amount yesterday...not sure yet how to dissect what that means.)

Oh, and no laughing about the craftsmanship. It was my first woodworking. :basic04

Interesting. What led you to decide to do this?