Christians and racism!!

[Ian Gentles]

Friend phoned yesterday, hadn't heard from him for years. Well he now works for, and has stood in local elections for, The British National Party. Now this party is extremely right wing, and many would say racist in its policies. But, and here is my question, church he was going too, not a COTN, didn't want him around because of his party affiliation! Should we exclude people who have racist views? Gosh i totally abhor racism, but sadly, in all camps, its part of society we live in. Its horrid, but alive and well! So if this guy was in your church, what do you do? How would you handle situation? I should add, he never took his politics to church!

[Barbara Moulton]

So if this guy was in your church, what do you do? How would you handle situation? I should add, he never took his politics to church!

If he kept quiet and didn't bother anyone we would certainly welcome him...keep preaching Jesus and hope he would get convicted of the attitudes.

But, having said that, we work hard to make our church a safe place. If there was someone coming who was making people of other ethnic backgrounds feel uncomfortable and hurt by expression of racist views then yes, we would probably ask him to either keep his views to himself or leave.

In this case..if he didn't take his politics to church, then how did they find out what those politics were?

[Ian Gentles]

If he kept quiet and didn't bother anyone we would certainly welcome him...keep preaching Jesus and hope he would get convicted of the attitudes.

But, having said that, we work hard to make our church a safe place. If there was someone coming who was making people of other ethnic backgrounds feel uncomfortable and hurt by expression of racist views then yes, we would probably ask him to either keep his views to himself or leave.

In this case..if he didn't take his politics to church, then how did they find out what those politics were?

As a BNP candidate his picture was in local newspaper

[Barbara Moulton]

As a BNP candidate his picture was in local newspaper

I went and looked up some information on this BNP.

Is it true that the BNP is "committed to stemming and reversing the tide of non-white immigration and to restoring, by legal changes, negotiation and consent the overwhelmingly white makeup of the British population that existed in Britain prior to 1948"?

If so, I can understand the discomfort for a church in having someone with those views attending their church. Especially if the community they were trying to reach out to had "non white" members.

[Ryan Scott]

Christians have battled racism from the very beginning (remember the early Jewish believer not wanting to accept gentiles unless they became Jews). We affirm that all people are equal, but, as a group, we rarely act that way. I think a proper approach would be to continue to admit our racist actions and attitudes and deal with them publicly, not hiding them. Being open and honest about our realities and our desires to be better should have a positive impact on all.

[Ian Gentles]

I went and looked up some information on this BNP.

Is it true that the BNP is "committed to stemming and reversing the tide of non-white immigration and to restoring, by legal changes, negotiation and consent the overwhelmingly white makeup of the British population that existed in Britain prior to 1948"?

If so, I can understand the discomfort for a church in having someone with those views attending their church. Especially if the community they were trying to reach out to had "non white" members.

To be honest i dont know, just keep hearing they are a racist party.

[Barbara Moulton]

Christians have battled racism from the very beginning (remember the early Jewish believer not wanting to accept gentiles unless they became Jews). We affirm that all people are equal, but, as a group, we rarely act that way. I think a proper approach would be to continue to admit our racist actions and attitudes and deal with them publicly, not hiding them. Being open and honest about our realities and our desires to be better should have a positive impact on all.

I think there is a difference between Christians acknowledging that we probably all struggle with individual prejudices and biases (which can manifest themselves in racist ways) and with a Christian choosing to publically identify themselves with, and represent, a politcial party which has racist agendas.

The latter is not "admitting" racist attitudes. S/he has chosen to adopt a racist agenda so I don't think they want to "be better".

[Ian Gentles]

BNP has been gaining power in UK, oh its no major political threat. The problem that gains it support is imigration, trust me we are being swamped, and its not a colour thing, majority now comming from eastern Europe.

[Billy Cox]

Christians have battled racism from the very beginning (remember the early Jewish believer not wanting to accept gentiles unless they became Jews). We affirm that all people are equal, but, as a group, we rarely act that way.

Was that really racism or was it just part of the process of determining what was 'essential' in order to follow of Christ? Is it so surprising that most 1st century Jews initially saw Christianity as a new 'flavor' of Judaism? I say 'most' because there is nothing in the Acts narrative suggesting that a more tolerant faction of Jews came to Paul's defense just before his arrest and trial in Jerusalem.

[Ryan Scott]

Was that really racism or was it just part of the process of determining what was 'essential' in order to follow of Christ? Is it so surprising that most 1st century Jews initially saw Christianity as a new 'flavor' of Judaism? I say 'most' because there is nothing in the Acts narrative suggesting that a more tolerant faction of Jews came to Paul's defense just before his arrest and trial in Jerusalem.


It might not be racism in the way we see it today, but it was along the same lines of discovering what it means to be a Christian. It's something that has continued throughout history with a variety of races and ethnic groups.

[Ryan Scott]

I think there is a difference between Christians acknowledging that we probably all struggle with individual prejudices and biases (which can manifest themselves in racist ways) and with a Christian choosing to publically identify themselves with, and represent, a politcial party which has racist agendas.

The latter is not "admitting" racist attitudes. S/he has chosen to adopt a racist agenda so I don't think they want to "be better".


True; it's not the same thing, but then again singling those people out is not going to change them. I think keeping our mandate to honor all people as equal children front and center in our congregations will send the right message without anyone feeling like they're being targeted (which is where this thread began). You obviously can't condone the attitude or behavior, but you can't throw them out either.

[Terri Knoll]

isn't it amazing that he would call you? consider that a blessing! there is a reason he sought YOU out, lol

love ya geeze

praying ultimate blessings all over your ministry!

[Barbara Moulton]

BNP has been gaining power in UK, oh its no major political threat. The problem that gains it support is imigration, trust me we are being swamped, and its not a colour thing, majority now comming from eastern Europe.

Immigration is not a problem. Improperly managed immigration can be a problem.

My country would be experiencing negative population growth it it weren't for immigration.

[Billy Cox]

It might not be racism in the way we see it today, but it was along the same lines of discovering what it means to be a Christian. It's something that has continued throughout history with a variety of races and ethnic groups.

In terms of one group acting out of a sense of cultural superiority, I suppose that it could be termed racism. If so, then many Christian missionary works have been to some degree driven by racism. (some more than others obviously)

[Ryan Scott]

In terms of one group acting out of a sense of cultural superiority, I suppose that it could be termed racism. If so, then many Christian missionary works have been to some degree driven by racism. (some more than others obviously)


That was my point. We tend to jump on people who do and say things openly that we often do subconsciously. Being more open about our own prejudices and failures helps everyone.

[Barbara Moulton]

That was my point. We tend to jump on people who do and say things openly that we often do subconsciously. Being more open about our own prejudices and failures helps everyone.

But surely someone who says and does racist things should be held to a higher account than someone who thinks racist thougts or struggles on a subconscious level with racist ideas? I remember sitting at a table with an elderly member of my church at a woman's dinner (not my present church). There was an African-Canadian sitting at the table and I remember how embarassed when the woman started talking about "n _ s having a good sense of music".

But the woman who was expressing what some might say are "racist" thoughts, was not a racist. She was, in her own heart, trying to pay a compliment to a member of an ethnic group that she didn't have much interaction with on a regular basis. Was she acting subconsciously racist? Is she the same as the man who chooses to join, work for and represent a racist group?

[Dale Cozby]

My country would be experiencing negative population growth it it weren't for immigration.

A another way of saying this would be:

"My country would be experiencing population growth if it weren't for abortion."

27 live births to almost 25 abortions. You could almost double your growth rate if this was stopped. Then you would not need so much immigration just to stay even.

[Anne and Dwayne Hood]

Eight of our church ladies, and a little boy, a little over two ate at Perkins, one night, a little over a week ago. They let us have a room where we could be loud and have a ball.
Four of us were white and four were black. Little Denarious is the petted and pampered church baby. We have been in church together, so many years, that we feel BLOOD KIN AND like family. We don't have to worry one bit about color. Denarious ran around to each of us, saying "What is your name?" And then he thought he took our picture with a little camera he had. His mother, and the other children and teens call me grandmother. I taught those kids and teens since they were tiny, either on Sunday or Wednesday nights, or both. They call Dwayne Papa. One young teen that will be 19 in May, and his brother is 15, use to actually think we were their grandparents. When they were small, they would see us in a store, and come running, and nearly knock us down, hollering, Papa, Grandmother. Color did not make one bit of difference to them or us. I was never embarrassed about it, but things like lhat make you swell with pride and joy and love. I did not care if people thought they were actually our grands. One time I bought something for our grrandchildren, and they found out, and the oldest one called-to take me to task, and wondered where their Bug Catchers were. They thought they had been left out. I told him I would give his mother money to get theirs. A dollar may not sound like much, but I give them one for every birthday, and this year is possibly the first time, the teens and children did not get a gift or a dollar for Christmas, from Papa and Grandmother. You would have to experience it, and love them like we have since the 15 year OLD WAS A TINY BABE IN ARMS, to realize how much we love them. The young black women hug the older NAVY RETIREES THAT ARE white men, and we are so much like family, that it does not bother them at all. I am only discussing this, to tell you about the love that flows through all of our hearts toward one another. Our pastor is black and extremely tall. His wife Ruby is precious. I think she may go to retreat with us in April. She is 55 now, and old enough to attend. It seems that he can not begin to get over the joy that church gives him, and he doesn't have to worry about the budgets, or special offerings, or anything like that. He works for the federal govt. at the VA hospital-like Dwayne counseled for the State govt. Bro Bonds finished two Nazarene schools and Ruby graduated from Trevecca. Their son is about 22, and seems a little bit autistic.
We expect to be able to attend, at least the next two Sundays., ANd maybe more if Forest City gets a pastor. A man and woman, who are both minsters, and the DS will be there Sunday. Then the next week they plan to come back, and the other spouse will preach, the one that did not speak the first week. They can drive over in about an hour, and will have a nice parsonage if they move there.
February 20th will be the 25th anniversary since we went to the Millington church tht was military then, and for years to come. Subtract 25 from 69 and you will know how old we were.
Let's see. Is this supposed to be theology?



























Well, sorry if I bored you to death. That church is something that I can go on and on about. You can read this is daily installments. ha

[Barbara Moulton]

A another way of saying this would be:

"My country would be experiencing population growth if it weren't for abortion."

27 live births to almost 25 abortions. You could almost double your growth rate if this was stopped. Then you would not need so much immigration just to stay even.

What an odd thing to say Dale!

I am not quite sure what your point is.

[Laurie Florence]

A another way of saying this would be:

"My country would be experiencing population growth if it weren't for abortion."

27 live births to almost 25 abortions. You could almost double your growth rate if this was stopped. Then you would not need so much immigration just to stay even.

Huh???? :confused:

[Ryan Scott]

But surely someone who says and does racist things should be held to a higher account than someone who thinks racist thougts or struggles on a subconscious level with racist ideas? I remember sitting at a table with an elderly member of my church at a woman's dinner (not my present church). There was an African-Canadian sitting at the table and I remember how embarassed when the woman started talking about "n _ s having a good sense of music".

But the woman who was expressing what some might say are "racist" thoughts, was not a racist. She was, in her own heart, trying to pay a compliment to a member of an ethnic group that she didn't have much interaction with on a regular basis. Was she acting subconsciously racist? Is she the same as the man who chooses to join, work for and represent a racist group?

I wasn't necessarily saying we shouldn't hold people accountable, I was just saying that being more vocal and up-front about our general failings in this area will be beneficial for anyone, whether they are truly racist or simply ignorant of their racist actions.

[Barbara Moulton]

I wasn't necessarily saying we shouldn't hold people accountable, I was just saying that being more vocal and up-front about our general failings in this area will be beneficial for anyone, whether they are truly racist or simply ignorant of their racist actions.

But you said we shouldn't single them out so how would you hold them accountable?

[Dave McClung]

Was that really racism or was it just part of the process of determining what was 'essential' in order to follow of Christ? Is it so surprising that most 1st century Jews initially saw Christianity as a new 'flavor' of Judaism? I say 'most' because there is nothing in the Acts narrative suggesting that a more tolerant faction of Jews came to Paul's defense just before his arrest and trial in Jerusalem.

It was clearly racism. At least it was on St. Peter's part. A few years ago, I gave a message at the Nazarene Leader's Conference. I pointed out that Peter in our theology we believe that Peter was sanctified in the Upper Room experience, but remained a racist until he had the vision of the sheet being lowered with all kinds of animals (Acts, Chapter 6). That being the Biblical Record, it is clear that one can be entirely sanctified and still have some inappropriate attitudes.

That being said, as soon as God showed Peter the inappropriatness of his attitude, he completely changed.

If a racist came to my church, I would do my best to show that person the inappropriateness of the attitude. If the person refused to change, I would consider the attitude to be sin. The person would be treated as any other sinner -- welcomed but not put in any leadership position.

[Billie Goodson]

IThe person would be treated as any other sinner -- welcomed but not put in any leadership position.


Dave, I thought we were all sinners?

I do agree with your approach. I think Ian has a wonderful opportunity to witness to this brother! Ian, you should be honored, as I think Barbara(?) may have said, that he contacted you! I think there are a few models to follow:

Paul when he confronted Peter -- two close brothers would be one.

Another would be to try to determine what he identifies with, and ask him to clearly define what his position is. I think the key is that he must be the one that sees the need to change, all of us "seeing" the need is pointless. Often, we become embroiled in an issue and fail to see the higher ground because we are so deep in the trenches. Being anti-immigration does not mean racist to me necessarily, but, in extremes it can be seen that way by others. That gets us to Paul's warnings about sacrificial meats....

I no longer want to develop a Christian world view -- I am now trying to develop a view of the world as a Christian.

[Ryan Scott]

But you said we shouldn't single them out so how would you hold them accountable?


I guess I was trying to say, if the only time we mention racism in our congregation is when we're singling someone out who is openly racist, we're doing a disservice to all. It's unfair to the person being singled out, because we all exhibit for prejudice and racism than we'd like and this person is being punished for vocalizing something that many have kept hidden. We're doing a disservice to those struggling with or harboring racism and to those who are racist without being fully aware.

If a congregation is not publicly dealing with the issue, the reprimand of this individual should not be public.

[Anne and Dwayne Hood]

Another thing, we need to remember, that I had to learn to realize. Just because we have told someone something, does not necessarily mean that they have seen the light, even if they are sanctified--as Dave said about Peter.
We may have told a person something, about the racist way, they are acting, but maybe their path has not, as yet, been illuminated--concerning this thought. That, also goes back to the story about Peter, and Cornelius.
We may need to be accountable, but a human, does not always, give them the light they need from the Holy Spirit.

That could also, apply to the teaching of sanctification. Many do not understand it, but by faith, they can obtain, it, whether or not they understand. They can continue to grow, after the initial process of sanctification.

[Ian Gentles]

we are all racist to an extent, even if we don't like to admit the seads are there. I am a Scot, we got a long history of fighting the English, and yea I married an English rose, but centuries of history don't die. I am a protestant from west of Scotland, so old anti catholic emotions die slowly. I get fed up on buses of hearing folks jabbering in east European languages, on cell pones! Yep, I am wary of Muslims when they say they hate terrorism, can i trust their word? Theres even a Brits v Europe type racism here that is very weird!
OK folks be honest, is their racism in you?? We like to deny there isn't, but isn't the seed there?

[Barbara Moulton]

we are all racist to an extent, even if we don't like to admit the seads are there. I am a Scot, we got a long history of fighting the English, and yea I married an English rose, but centuries of history don't die. I am a protestant from west of Scotland, so old anti catholic emotions die slowly. I get fed up on buses of hearing folks jabbering in east European languages, on cell pones! Yep, I am wary of Muslims when they say they hate terrorism, can i trust their word? Theres even a Brits v Europe type racism here that is very weird!
OK folks be honest, is their racism in you?? We like to deny there isn't, but isn't the seed there?

It's a little hard to answer a post like this becauset you assert at the beginning that we are all racist to a certain extent and end with challenging us to be honest and admit it. So if any of us do say that we are not racist then you'll just say we aren't being honest.

But let us look at this. Dictionary.com defines racism as:

1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
I don't feel this. I probably don't feel the same sense of connection with people from distinct cultures and ethinic backgrounds but I certainly don't feel that I am superior to them.

2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
I abhor any form of policy doctrine that would discrminate against anyone based on race. I am proud to live in a country that has laws guaranteeing rights of all people. I would never support nor vote for a party like the one your friend belongs too.

3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.
I admit that occasionally I have been uncomfortable when in an environment where I am in the minority. For example, as someone who loves to communicate with others, I find it frustrating if I can't make myself understood to those around me because they are all speaking a different language or are speaking heavily accented English. But discomfort or a sense of disconnect is neither hatred nor intolerance. When some blokes form Liverpool got off the plane at the Toronto airport and tried to ask me something I was frustrated because I couldn't understand what they were saying to me. But that doesn't make me a racist.

An intolerant thought running through my mind, does not make me a racist. Nursing that thought and looking for evidence to support it and then acting on that thought would.

I don't think I am unique. I think most of the people I know are like me.