Corporate Prayer

[Marsha Lynn]

In the young adult Sunday school class I lead, we've been studying With Christ in the School of Prayer (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/murray/prayer.titlepage.html) by Andrew Murray, taking a chapter a week. This week was our 15th. Every week has dealt with a different aspect of prayer. It has been of great benefit to me personally.

A lesson that I keep going back to is that of the Friend at Midnight. You, as the pray-er, have a friend who is in need. You have nothing to give him, but you know someone who does. It takes serious concern for the needy friend before you will go out begging your neighbor for bread at midnight. It takes confidence that the neighbor has some bread to give you for your friend. And it takes faith that the neighbor will get up and give you the bread even if he at first seems disinclined to grant your request. Concern for the hungry friend, confidence that you know someone who has bread, and confidence that the person with the bread will be willing to give you some as you persist in your request. These are the three ingredients of successful intercessory prayer.

This whole study is far outside our usual view of prayer. From the chapter for today: "A prayer meeting without recognised answer to prayer ought to be an anomaly." Murray takes the promises that God gives us that for which we ask very seriously. We're so used to praying without expectation of definite answers, it's sometimes as though he's a wild-eyed radical, taking verses out of context and making all these wild claims that everyone knows aren't really true, such as that if one has faith in God, he can ask whatever he wants and believe that he has it and it will be his (re: Mark 11:22-24). Is that wild or what?!! We all know that the only prayer that one can truly expect an answer to is, "Thy will be done." It's a good thing this book is over 100 years old and safely in the category of a classic or I probably wouldn't be allowed to use it in Sunday school.

Today we got to the subject of corporate prayer with Matthew 18:19-20 as the text for the day. ("Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them.")

I've been contemplating the value of corporate efforts in a lot of areas lately; synergy, if you will. Bringing this lesson into my thought process took me off in new directions.

For the first 14 chapters, we've been speaking of prayer primarily as an individual activity. In chapter 15, Murray uses a tree to illustrate the relationship between individual and corporate prayer. 'Secret' prayer is the root, hidden beneath the ground but absolutely essential to the health of the tree.

He writes: if in every Church united effectual prayer were regarded as one of the chief purposes for which they are banded together, the highest exercise of their power as a Church ... O who can say what blessing might come to, and through, those who thus agreed to prove God in the fulfilment of His promise.

I have heard many statements about the chief purpose of the church. Primarily that purpose is announced to be evangelism, but worship, fellowship, and edification are other options. However, I don't think that I have ever heard anyone suggest that one of the chief purposes of the church is united prayer. Yet, if united prayer truly moves the hand of God to an extent beyond what can come from individual prayer, it does seem that exercising that sacred trust of power in prayer would be one of our chief purposes for gathering as a body.

If we apply the story of the Friend at Midnight to corporate prayer, we have more people concerned about hungry visitors at midnight. We have a combined confidence that we know where to find bread. We have a delegation to send asking for the bread and to carry it back.

So if one person can feed one hungry guest at midnight, and two or three people can each do the same on an individual basis, how many people can be fed when those two or three work together? Is this another place where synergy applies?

Murray lists three marks of 'true united prayer': (1) agreement, (2) gathering in the name of Jesus, and (3) answers.

If we don't see definite answers to our corporate prayers, is it because we lack agreement as to what we want God to do for us as we join in prayer together in the name of Jesus?

Any thoughts on this? So far we're mostly sitting in the classroom studying prayer without investing a lot of time in the lab, but the possibilities are becoming more and more intriguing.

Marsha

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

I wish I knew more about prayer. It has been my pursuit for several years now, but I think I am still operating at the kindergarten level.

The story of the persistent neighbor is, I think, an important prayer lesson. To me it says that we go to the Lord in prayer about something, but he doesn't respond. Like the neighbor who has every reason to believe his friend not only has the means to meet his need, but the willingness, we are surprised when our request is not met immediately. We don't know why, but we still have faith in God's provision for us and his good will toward us. So, we do the only thing we know to do. We think, "I don't know why God hasn't answered yet, but I still trust in him -- so I will knock again, and again if necessary."

On the topic of cooperate prayer, I can only add that I have seen that it is possible to have too many people come to pray. For a group to effectively pray together there must be mutual trust and respect. They must also pray together on a regular basis. Members of such a group come to rely on one another's strengths in prayer. I have been in such groups and known that a specific person was the one who should lead the way when praying over certain needs, and at the same time, known my role would be to lead in praise, etc. Without ever giving assignments, we had learned to rely on one another's strengths.

Now, if such a group exists and someone comes in who is a spectator or isn't willing to be open hearted in the group, they will hinder the prayers of the group. I am not talking about a person who is a prayer learner, or is shy and never verbalizes a prayer. I am talking about someone one who hinders the dynamic of the group.

Personally, I think that 5 to 10 people make a great prayer group and while I don't think prayer meeting should be a "members only" meeting, that the most effective cooperate prayers are prayed by more closed groups.

You asked for thoughts -- those are my off the cuff thoughts on the topics you brought up.

[Marsha Lynn]

I wish I knew more about prayer. It has been my pursuit for several years now, but I think I am still operating at the kindergarten level.

At this point in my life, my personal prayer time is the highlight of my days. I certainly have far to go, but I love what I've learned up to now.

On the other hand, corporate prayer remains a mystery to me in many respects. I appreciate your comments here.

Do you think there are different types of corporate prayer? The "pastoral prayer" during the Sunday morning service is corporate prayer, as is conversational prayer during a home Bible study. But those two settings are very different and the nature of the prayers appropriate to them are equally different.

I lead a Wednesday evening prayer group which is different yet. It's more intimate than the Sunday morning setting but certainly not at the same intimacy level as an established 'small group' which shares deeply and personally. Someone who wanted the small group setting would be disappointed in the lack of vulnerability shown in our Wednesday night group. In discussing our prayer ministry once, someone mentioned that prayer groups need to be vulnerable so that members know when someone is struggling and can pray with and for them. My response was, "Aren't we all struggling?" I'm not sure declining to bare one's heart to a group should disqualify one from being embraced in corporate prayer. If I had to know the nature of someone's burdens in order to intercede for them, how often would my pastor be beyond the reach of my prayers because of confidentiality issues? I certainly try to listen and take mental notes when he shares specific burdens, but my prayers for him go beyond what I know into areas where I can only guess the nature of his burdens. Likewise, I can pray for those in the Wednesday night group without having to know the details of their burdens. They are part of my church family. I care about them. I pray for and with them on Wednesday nights. Most of what I know about their struggles, I find out in other settings. I'm okay with that, but maybe I shouldn't be.

There are so many practical questions in the area of corporate prayer. For example, what sorts of things help people stay focused when someone else is praying? Is it better to listen to the person speaking and affirm their words in our hearts or is it better to be speaking to God personally in our hearts while someone else is praying out loud? In other words, do we come to God with one voice or with many voices being raised together?

Certainly a start toward more meaningful corporate prayer would be to discourage people from using moments of prayer during worship services as a 'time-out' when they can reposition themselves or things "while no one is watching", but the questions about corporate prayer go way beyond that. The one from this morning is: Does our church have the potential to bring healing to our community by coming together and bringing the needs around us to the One with the resources to meet those needs? How do we do that?

Marsha

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

Do you think there are different types of corporate prayer? The "pastoral prayer" during the Sunday morning service is corporate prayer, as is conversational prayer during a home Bible study. But those two settings are very different and the nature of the prayers appropriate to them are equally different.

I agree with you that there are different types of corporate prayer. In addition to the two you mention I think of prayer before the offering and other routine prayers we pray in church, reciting the Lord's Prayer, S.S. Class prayer, and various prayer meetings.


Someone who wanted the small group setting would be disappointed in the lack of vulnerability shown in our Wednesday night group. In discussing our prayer ministry once, someone mentioned that prayer groups need to be vulnerable so that members know when someone is struggling and can pray with and for them. My response was, "Aren't we all struggling?"

Believe me, you are preaching to the choir when you talk about "vulnerability." I hate going to retreats, etc. in which people are divided up into groups to "share" and pray. I used to go to such retreats armed with some "safe" thing already in mind to share when the group leader turned everyone's attention on me.

However, there is a huge difference between that and being with a small group of friends who know and like one another, and who have gathered together specifically to pray. Still, the subject of such a prayer meeting is probably not the result of people spilling their guts to one another. For one thing, many personal needs are already known among friends. For another, such a group probably already has an agenda: to pray for the church, for revival, for lost people, for the services that day, for the sick -- or a bit of all that.

Likewise, I can pray for those in the Wednesday night group without having to know the details of their burdens. They are part of my church family. I care about them. I pray for and with them on Wednesday nights. Most of what I know about their struggles, I find out in other settings. I'm okay with that, but maybe I shouldn't be.

Again, I have thought to myself "TMI" many times during prayer requests. Our Wed. night group has become a prayer force in our church. It is very different than everyone gathering to "share" their needs. We meet around a table, with several having cups of coffee. A blank prayer list is handed out to each person. We spend about a half hour sharing prayer concerns. There is a lot of good natured laughter and chatting that goes on, but at the same time, we keep adding to our list. There are what we call the "usual suspects" -- stuff we almost always pray about, plus the usual round of physical needs. Then we do volunteer prayer. Some put check marks by each need that was listed as they pray. Sometimes, a personal need is expressed, and we will gather round that person, lay hands on them and pray for them.

There are so many practical questions in the area of corporate prayer. For example, what sorts of things help people stay focused when someone else is praying? Is it better to listen to the person speaking and affirm their words in our hearts or is it better to be speaking to God personally in our hearts while someone else is praying out loud? In other words, do we come to God with one voice or with many voices being raised together?

In the case of our Wed. night group, that list helps. To some extent though, it is a learned discipline. Our people generally listen to one another pray rather than enter into "concert prayer." Our Sunday morning group only meets for 20 minutes, but it is a key to the whole day. We don't pray over physical needs - but focus on praise and thanksgiving plus the immediate need of the day. Again, different ones lift their voices in prayer with the others quietly agreeing in prayer. Personally, I like conversational prayer for a corporate prayer meeting. In that format, a person brings up a subject by lifting it to the Lord. They pray only about that one thing, then, others respond by adding their prayer to the first one -- still staying on subject. When things grow quiet, someone will feel free to introduce another topic. In such a prayer meeting, instead of each person "praying around the world" we stay focused, and pray several short, intentional prayers.

Certainly a start toward more meaningful corporate prayer would be to discourage people from using moments of prayer during worship services as a 'time-out' when they can reposition themselves or things "while no one is watching", but the questions about corporate prayer go way beyond that. The one from this morning is: Does our church have the potential to bring healing to our community by coming together and bringing the needs around us to the One with the resources to meet those needs? How do we do that?
Marsha

To some extent, I think a time out during a more intense prayer meeting is only natural. You might even say that we "trust" the one who is verbalizing a prayer with the prayer of the whole group. I am not saying that we start thinking about a baseball game, but we lower the level of personal participation and allow the one leading to carry the weight of the prayer for awhile.

There is some training involved to keep our prayer meetings from focusing on everyone's physical needs. I think this can be dealt with in some direct ways. The leader can communicate that to the group -- "I know there are always lots of people with friends and neighbors who are ill, and we aren't going to ignore that, but let's not come to God as beggars. He has blessed us and we ought to thank him for it. Also, we are hungry for a revival in the church, and some of you have lost family members. Let's be sure to pray over these things today."

I have made similar speeches many times and I can tell you that it will transform a prayer meeting.

Beyond that, the pastor can model prayer during the pastoral prayer time.

Thanks for the opportunity to think about this some more.

[Marsha Lynn]

I don't have much time for response tonight but have a question and a couple of notes.

Again, I have thought to myself "TMI" many times during prayer requests.

"TMI"?? Pardon my ignorance but I cannot find any words to put with this.

I have been in groups that use conversational prayer and find value in it. I have also tried to introduce it to groups who never caught on to the concept and seen others try the same with the same result. It doesn't seem to be for everyone.

To some extent, I think a time out during a more intense prayer meeting is only natural. You might even say that we "trust" the one who is verbalizing a prayer with the prayer of the whole group. I am not saying that we start thinking about a baseball game, but we lower the level of personal participation and allow the one leading to carry the weight of the prayer for awhile.

I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing. When I mentioned people using corporate prayer time as a 'time out' when 'no one was watching', I was referring to situations such as where there's a 'scene change' during a time of prayer during a service. The congregation closes their eyes in prayer and when they open them all the people who used to be on the platform are gone and others have taken their place. Or the musicians hold a quick whispered conference during the prayer to work out some unanticipated complication. This isn't a big issue with me. I'm not going to dictate to others what they ought to do during times of prayer. That's between them and God. But I do think it would be nice if when the church went to prayer during a service, everyone in the sanctuary joined in out of acknowledgment that we are entering together into the majestic presence of the Almighty God. I mainly express that thought by declining to participate when people try to involve me in anything other than prayer during prayer times.

There is some training involved to keep our prayer meetings from focusing on everyone's physical needs. I think this can be dealt with in some direct ways. The leader can communicate that to the group -- "I know there are always lots of people with friends and neighbors who are ill, and we aren't going to ignore that, but let's not come to God as beggars. He has blessed us and we ought to thank him for it. Also, we are hungry for a revival in the church, and some of you have lost family members. Let's be sure to pray over these things today."

Yes, I agree. As a prayer group leader, I consider this sort of thing to be one of my primary responsibilities. Otherwise, we never get past cancer, colds and broken bones to emotional pain and suffering, broken, hurting hearts, and spiritual hunger. It's not so easy to branch out into those areas because few people want their inner pain to be part of a group discussion. It takes discretion and a willingness to pray in specific generalities (if that makes sense).

Thanks for the further thoughts.

Marsha

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

"TMI"?? Pardon my ignorance but I cannot find any words to put with this.

Sorry: "Too Much Information" -- I have heard some prayer requests that contain "TMI."

I have been in groups that use conversational prayer and find value in it. I have also tried to introduce it to groups who never caught on to the concept and seen others try the same with the same result. It doesn't seem to be for everyone.

I agree, it isn't for everyone -- but it would be beneficial for about anyone to expand their prayer horizons, and this is a good one.

I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing. When I mentioned people using corporate prayer time as a 'time out' when 'no one was watching', I was referring to situations such as where there's a 'scene change' during a time of prayer during a service.

Sorry, I was just free associating and not doing a very good job of following your lead in the conversation. I agree that we set a bad example when we use prayer time as a cover up for taking care of activity either on the platform or even out in the congregation. I have visited a few larger churches in which the ushers would not allow you to enter the sanctuary during prayer. I thought that was a good way to remind everyone that this is sacred time.

Thanks for the further thoughts.

Thank you for an interesting topic.

[Marsha Lynn]

Sorry: "Too Much Information" -- I have heard some prayer requests that contain "TMI."

Aha. Yes, I'm familiar with inner cringe that comes with TMI, just not the acronym. The ones that make me hide a smile are when details of some unsuspecting relative's recent surgery are shared, sometimes including things I would hesitate to discuss in mixed company, let alone announce to an entire congregation. Do we really need to know just how bad the bladder infection is in order to pray for Aunt Sadie or how many kidney stones Uncle Joe has passed and how many are still left? (And those are mild examples.)

The TMI of physical needs can make me smile. It's less often that I get TMI in reference to family problems and emotional pain. I think we're fairly careful about that. On the other hand, sometimes I wonder if people are finding settings where they feel free to share at the level they wish they could when the burdens grow heavy. Personally, I tend to share such things with one person (or maybe two people) at a time rather than in a group. It feels safer that way and means I only have to deal with one reaction rather than fielding questions from and measuring the reactions of multiple people. Similarly, most of what I know about the private pain of my church family has come to me in those semi-private "front porch" settings that I'm trying to make intentional in my life rather than in more formal 'prayer meetings'.

Marsha

[Marsha Lynn]

Someone shared this link sometime and I have found value in the prayers linked on this page. I find that reading them influences my own public prayers in good ways.

http://www.drurywriting.com/keith/pastoral.prayer.htm

[Susan Unger]

Someone shared this link sometime and I have found value in the prayers linked on this page. I find that reading them influences my own public prayers in good ways.

http://www.drurywriting.com/keith/pastoral.prayer.htm

Hello all - I decided to check out the new tags feature and came upon this old thread. It caught my eye as tomorrow I and another lady at church are going to try an intercessory prayer group at church. I have read some of Andrew Murray's books before but not a whole book. I have also read Dutch Sheets' Intercessory Prayer book. That was quite fascinating.

I hope our group goes well tomorrow [it should, I am just nervous]. My former church wouldn't be caught dead praying with me for our church. This discouraged me greatly. But one lady from another church joined me and taught me how to do intercessory prayer and how different it is than the usual wed night prayer meeting. At the church I am at now, there are several people who believe in prayer thankfully. Unfortunately, we all have such different schedules that we can't all get together at one time to pray. After a prayer seminar at DA last week, I felt like it was time to try again to have an intercessory group going again since I am at a better church now. This sweet older lady was so excited when I asked her [what a shocking relief after what I went through at my old church]. So, I am looking forward to this.

[Eric Frey]

I think we have a way too narrow view of prayer. I would guess that 90% of the songs we sing are prayers. Marsha wrote, "I have heard many statements about the chief purpose of the church. Primarily that purpose is announced to be evangelism, but worship, fellowship, and edification are other options. However, I don't think that I have ever heard anyone suggest that one of the chief purposes of the church is united prayer. ". Isn't united prayer what worship really is? The Episcopal Church calls their worship book, "The Book of Common Prayer." Others use things like "Missal" or "Book of Worship" or "Book of Common Woship." But the Episcopalians illuminate the heart of worship. Worship is the united prayer of the church. I contend that you have a corporate prayer service every Lord's Day morning.

Let's think about the elements of a worship service that function as a prayer:

* Call to worship - usually a psalm which is usually a prayer
* Invocation - a verbal prayer
* Songs of Praise and Adoration - our prayer set to music
* Prayer for Illumination - a prayer that God would now speak to us
* Scripture Reading - Listening to God (that's prayer too!)
* Sermon - Listening to God (remembering that the sermon is not the pastor's words, but God's)
* Songs of Response - whether thanksgiving, salvation, sanctification, etc, these songs are more prayers set to music.
* The Prayers of the People (often called the Pastoral Prayer and including the Lord's Prayer) - usually the pastor praying for and on behalf of the people, but we must remember that ordination in a sense makes pastor = church. Therefore, when the pastor visits you in the hospital, it is not the pastor as an individual who visit you, but the pastor as the body of Christ who visits you. Same with prayer. The pastor is not praying privately as an individual but is praying as the body of Christ and it is assumed that her prayer is your prayer.
* Offering - an enacted prayer of thanks
* Eucharist - Literally "thanksgiving" is another enacted prayer and the liturgy is full of various prayers: The Great Thanksgiving, The Sanctus, In the prayer for consecration we pray something like, "Holy Spirit of God, descend upon us and these gifts, sanctifying us..."
* Benediction - in various forms a prayer of praise, blessing, etc.

Worship IS united prayer. It is not that we don't have united prayer, it is that we define prayer much to narrowly, and do not really think much about what it is that we are doing.

[Susan Unger]

I think we have a way too narrow view of prayer.

I agree. I have heard people tell me that they don't pray much at all. Yet when I talk with them about this, I find that they ARE praying...just not a formal, on knees at the bedside kind of prayer. They talk with God all the time as they are doing dishes, driving to work, etc. When I point this out to them they always have this "wow" kind of look on their face.

[Billy Cox]

I agree. I have heard people tell me that they don't pray much at all. Yet when I talk with them about this, I find that they ARE praying...just not a formal, on knees at the bedside kind of prayer. They talk with God all the time as they are doing dishes, driving to work, etc. When I point this out to them they always have this "wow" kind of look on their face.

Someone has seen fit to teach us that if something doesn't feel like duty, then it can't be that pleasing to God.

[Billy Cox]

Let's think about the elements of a worship service that function as a prayer:

* Call to worship - usually a psalm which is usually a prayer
* Invocation - a verbal prayer
* Songs of Praise and Adoration - our prayer set to music
* Prayer for Illumination - a prayer that God would now speak to us
* Scripture Reading - Listening to God (that's prayer too!)
* Sermon - Listening to God (remembering that the sermon is not the pastor's words, but God's)
* Songs of Response - whether thanksgiving, salvation, sanctification, etc, these songs are more prayers set to music.
* The Prayers of the People (often called the Pastoral Prayer and including the Lord's Prayer) - usually the pastor praying for and on behalf of the people, but we must remember that ordination in a sense makes pastor = church. Therefore, when the pastor visits you in the hospital, it is not the pastor as an individual who visit you, but the pastor as the body of Christ who visits you. Same with prayer. The pastor is not praying privately as an individual but is praying as the body of Christ and it is assumed that her prayer is your prayer.
* Offering - an enacted prayer of thanks
* Eucharist - Literally "thanksgiving" is another enacted prayer and the liturgy is full of various prayers: The Great Thanksgiving, The Sanctus, In the prayer for consecration we pray something like, "Holy Spirit of God, descend upon us and these gifts, sanctifying us..."
* Benediction - in various forms a prayer of praise, blessing, etc.

Worship IS united prayer. It is not that we don't have united prayer, it is that we define prayer much to narrowly, and do not really think much about what it is that we are doing.

Wait a minute there. What about the announcements, the plea for some strong giving to finish up the fiscal year and the clever stand-up routine preceding the sermon?

[Susan Unger]

Someone has seen fit to teach us that if something doesn't feel like duty, then it can't be that pleasing to God.

You got that right! :preach

[Eric Frey]

Someone has seen fit to teach us that if something does feel like duty, then it can't be that pleasing to God.

[William Hunter]

About 6 months ago I started a prayer class that was supposed to go 6 weeks. We are still at it. Some of my long-time Nazarenes have asked why it has taken this long in the church before someone discipled them in prayer.

I personally started on a journey of prayer at a whole new level in 1985. In recent years I have joined the Church Prayer Leaders Network, and Harvest Praywer Ministries. Both are advertized on our dist. now.

Currently my growing prayer class is studying the book by Jan Johnson, "When the Soul Listens." I have aobut 30-35 people reading this book. We work through a section each Sunday at 4:00 PM for an hour and then spend 1/2 hour in prayer. We also have a Sat. morning prayer mtg. and a group that gethers for 1/2 ahead of SS each Sunday to pray for the services of that day. During worship we have at least 2 people in a room praying for the service and those in attendance. Since we have been doing this the response to our altar calls has significantly increased.

Our dist. has hired Dr. Steve Weber as a prayer coach for our dist. I have him coming for a prayer conf. on the first weekend of Aug., a Sat--Mon. On that Monday we will have a 75 minute concert of prayer.

I began to take seriously God's statement, and then Christ's repeating of it, that His house will be a house of prayer. I spent some time researching what that looks like. There are few churches that are that but those who are have a profound level of His power in our midst that other churches have not even thought about.

My cong. is just starting that journey for I needed to be ready first, to lead such an effort. We are having a couple of windows replaces with stained glass windows. What we are doing has driven the design in them: one with the focus on a pair of praying hands, and one with focus on the cup and bread.

When I go to the annual prayer conf. in Terre Haute, IN sponcored by Harvest Prayer Ministries and the CPLN, I see about 800 lay pray leaders in attn. Few pastors attend. That is interesting. And as Virginia and I participate I wonder where are the other Nazarenes. We're the only two there. This year I am taking a group from my church to this event in Oct. It takes place every Oct.

This format is too limiting for me to say much more on this and its details. Since my Sunday afternoon class can now move forward without me there, I'd be willing to take what I teach on prayer in this class on the road, within driving distance. There is no weird stuff---God does not teach that. There is no tongues either. It is just one Nazarene pastor, fully supportive of our statement of belief, with a passion for prayer.

I am looking forward to our prayer conf. with Steve Weber and having my people learn even more insight into passionate connections with Christ.

[Susan Unger]

About 6 months ago I started a prayer class that was supposed to go 6 weeks. We are still at it. Some of my long-time Nazarenes have asked why it has taken this long in the church before someone discipled them in prayer.

I personally started on a journey of prayer at a whole new level in 1985. In recent years I have joined the Church Prayer Leaders Network, and Harvest Praywer Ministries. Both are advertized on our dist. now.

Currently my growing prayer class is studying the book by Jan Johnson, "When the Soul Listens." I have aobut 30-35 people reading this book. We work through a section each Sunday at 4:00 PM for an hour and then spend 1/2 hour in prayer. We also have a Sat. morning prayer mtg. and a group that gethers for 1/2 ahead of SS each Sunday to pray for the services of that day. During worship we have at least 2 people in a room praying for the service and those in attendance. Since we have been doing this the response to our altar calls has significantly increased.

Our dist. has hired Dr. Steve Weber as a prayer coach for our dist. I have him coming for a prayer conf. on the first weekend of Aug., a Sat--Mon. On that Monday we will have a 75 minute concert of prayer.

I began to take seriously God's statement, and then Christ's repeating of it, that His house will be a house of prayer. I spent some time researching what that looks like. There are few churches that are that but those who are have a profound level of His power in our midst that other churches have not even thought about.

My cong. is just starting that journey for I needed to be ready first, to lead such an effort. We are having a couple of windows replaces with stained glass windows. What we are doing has driven the design in them: one with the focus on a pair of praying hands, and one with focus on the cup and bread.

When I go to the annual prayer conf. in Terre Haute, IN sponcored by Harvest Prayer Ministries and the CPLN, I see about 800 lay pray leaders in attn. Few pastors attend. That is interesting. And as Virginia and I participate I wonder where are the other Nazarenes. We're the only two there. This year I am taking a group from my church to this event in Oct. It takes place every Oct.

This format is too limiting for me to say much more on this and its details. Since my Sunday afternoon class can now move forward without me there, I'd be willing to take what I teach on prayer in this class on the road, within driving distance. There is no weird stuff---God does not teach that. There is no tongues either. It is just one Nazarene pastor, fully supportive of our statement of belief, with a passion for prayer.

I am looking forward to our prayer conf. with Steve Weber and having my people learn even more insight into passionate connections with Christ.

Where I used to live, the churches that were growing were the ones that emphasized prayer. Those that were dying, prayer was lacking [my former church being one of them]. Most of the churches were dead or dying. But there'd be a few sparks of fire ~ and prayer was the difference. I have heard some recently that de-emphasized the need for prayer which distresses me as I know what they are missing. So, it is encouraging to me to hear someone else [esp a nazarene] say how much they value it.

As to why you are the only nazarenes at Harvest Prayer Ministries and the CPLN, my cynical self says it is cuz so many nazarenes don't know what they are missing and thus don't want to attend. My generous self says maybe they just don't know about these events.

[Billy Cox]

Someone has seen fit to teach us that if something does feel like duty, then it can't be that pleasing to God.

hey...didn't I say that? (verbatim) :p

[Susan Unger]

hey...didn't I say that? (verbatim) :p

Nah, he's saying the opposite of you. You said "Someone has seen fit to teach us that if something doesn't feel like duty, then it can't be that pleasing to God" while Eric said "Someone has seen fit to teach us that if something does feel like duty, then it can't be that pleasing to God."

[Billy Cox]

Where I used to live, the churches that were growing were the ones that emphasized prayer. Those that were dying, prayer was lacking [my former church being one of them]. I have heard some recently that de-emphasized the need for prayer which distresses me as I know what they are missing. So, it is encouraging to me to hear someone else [esp a nazarene] say how much they value it.

I don't know that I have heard anyone de-emphasize prayer. What I have heard is people (myself included) who challenge the idea that prayer is like a magic spell; the right words in the right quantity with the right amount of sincerity and feeling will bring about the favorable changes that we want.

I think that making prayer a program of the church does violence to an intimate relationship with God - both personal and collective.

As to why you are the only nazarenes at Harvest Prayer Ministries and the CPLN, my cynical self says it is cuz so many nazarenes don't know what they are missing and thus don't want to attend. My generous self says maybe they just don't know about these events.

Perhaps Nazarenes are too busy praying and making disciples to attend a conference where they talk about praying and making disciples. :eek:

[Billy Cox]

Nah, he's saying the opposite of you. You said "Someone has seen fit to teach us that if something doesn't feel like duty, then it can't be that pleasing to God" while Eric said "Someone has seen fit to teach us that if something does feel like duty, then it can't be that pleasing to God."

Okay, but the idea that rank and file Nazarenes have freedom from guilt, obligation, and approval-seeking is practically mythological. :basic05

Just read NazNet long enough and you will see that most of us are still chained to the performance treadmill.

[Susan Unger]

I don't know that I have heard anyone de-emphasize prayer. What I have heard is people (myself included) who challenge the idea that prayer is like a magic spell; the right words in the right quantity with the right amount of sincerity and feeling will bring about the favorable changes that we want.

I grew up in a legalistic church. They really believed that if you pray more than 5 min a day you were just doing it for show and that would displease God. Then in 2000 we had a pastor come in who loved prayer. When he prayed, it was like Heaven itself was in the Sanctuary. But there were some who sat through that God inspired prayer seething that he was taking up 15 min of their church time on prayer when they could be getting out 10 min sooner.

In fact, the whole area that I grew up in was very anti-prayer. It really was seen as wasting God's time and theirs when they could be doing something "real". And then they would wonder why they didn't have on fire churches and relationships with God.

[Susan Unger]

Okay, but the idea that rank and file Nazarenes have freedom from guilt, obligation, and approval-seeking is practically mythological. :basic05

Just read NazNet long enough and you will see that most of us are still chained to the performance treadmill.

I understood what you were saying with your first comment. ;) I grew up in a legalistic church and several of my friends did too so I caught the meaning right away. God is helping me break free from that background thank goodness.

[Barbara Moulton]

Someone has seen fit to teach us that if something does feel like duty, then it can't be that pleasing to God.


You are absolutely right in pointing this out.

Thanks.

[William Hunter]

Marsha, the high ground you attempted to take in this discussion seems to have gotten lost in replies that do not seem to stay on task. that seems to happen a lot on NN. I hope more with serious passion for prayer and learning about prayer join your attempts on higher ground here. this could be a really great learning expereince for us all.

[William Hunter]

On our dist. website, www.nwinazarene.org, on the opening page you will find 5 excellent prayer resources listed that you can download. I have copied off the Lectio Divina item and passed it out to several in my cong. and have a few good reports about how it is helping people in their devotional lives.

[William Hunter]

It looked like someone posted in response to my comments above asking me to teach the business of passionate prayer. It did not look like an e-mail but must have been. Regardless, the request is taken with seriousness on my part.

Now teaching about prayer at the level we are experiencing here, in this type fo format may be a bit difficult, but to do so in any format requires much personal involvement.

I cannot take us in this format through the DVD's on prayer that I have or loan you my CD's on prayer that come from the prayer conferences I have attended. And this type of prayer is not learned in a few "easy" lessons.

I would recommend printing off the Lectio Divina material from our district's website given in my above post. And two books I/we use to help us dig deeper into prayer is: 1. When the Soul Listens" by Jan Johnson. It is a NAVPRESS book, copyright 1999. I have had, and continue to have, comments from my prayer class about how this book has helped them revolutionize their prayer lives. It is be best book I've come across in all these years of studying prayer that is easily read by everyone, and that has such practical guidelines and suggestions, that if followed helps transform a person's encounters with God.
2. The second book is, "Deperate For His Presence" by Rhonda Hughey. Published by Bethany House, copyright 2004. Hughey is on the leadership team of the Kansas City, International House of Prayer. In her dedication she dedicates the book "to spiritually hungry and thirsty people who refuse to be satisfyied with what they have experienced of God so far. Desperate people run after God because deep down they know there is more. There is, and there will always be!>

The average church does nothing to disciple its people in prayer at a level tha they know how to, and regularly do, have deeply moving connections with God. After about 6 months of this class I am now hearing many of by class say, "Pastor, I can hardly wait to get to my place of prayer now." Yes, they pray as they go, but they have found the what Christ must have experienced when He sought our lonely places to pray. There was a connection there with His Father that drew Him to those places.

These people in this class have found a deeper level of prayer and connection with God that most people never get to. What we do in the average church does not help them in this direction. I will never pastor again, or do interim work without this class being part of my ministry.

These two books are a really good place to start for someone who really does want a deeper prayer life that which we usually see in a church. There is not magic wand in this. It takes a strong commitment and time to develop this kind of prayer life. But then, most today are too busy living for this life to do that, even in the church.

I hope this might help and encourage some who read this.

[Susan Unger]

2. The second book is, "Deperate For His Presence" by Rhonda Hughey. Published by Bethany House, copyright 2004. Hughey is on the leadership team of the Kansas City, International House of Prayer. In her dedication she dedicates the book "to spiritually hungry and thirsty people who refuse to be satisfyied with what they have experienced of God so far. Desperate people run after God because deep down they know there is more. There is, and there will always be!>


I am glad that you mentioned Desperation. I have found that that is the necessary ingredient in prayer as well as in all of one's spiritual walk. And it is what God has told me is to be my next year's focus in prayer - that everyone in my church as well as my entire district become desperate for God. A book by Rick Joyner on the Welsh Revival said it well - revival comes when people want more of God - not more of the externals of revival - but more of God. This has helped me tweek my prayer for my congregation. It used to be "revival so that the lost get saved". Now it is prayer for the "congregation to be desperate for more of God". In other words the focus is no longer "revival" but is "God".

[Billy Cox]

In other words the focus is no longer "revival" but is "God".

That is one of the wisest things I have seen on NazNet.

[Susan Unger]

That is one of the wisest things I have seen on NazNet.

Thanks :fav16

[Grandma Carolyn]

Hello all - I decided to check out the new tags feature and came upon this old thread. It caught my eye as tomorrow I and another lady at church are going to try an intercessory prayer group at church. I have read some of Andrew Murray's books before but not a whole book. I have also read Dutch Sheets' Intercessory Prayer book. That was quite fascinating.

I hope our group goes well tomorrow [it should, I am just nervous]. My former church wouldn't be caught dead praying with me for our church. This discouraged me greatly. But one lady from another church joined me and taught me how to do intercessory prayer and how different it is than the usual wed night prayer meeting. At the church I am at now, there are several people who believe in prayer thankfully. Unfortunately, we all have such different schedules that we can't all get together at one time to pray. After a prayer seminar at DA last week, I felt like it was time to try again to have an intercessory group going again since I am at a better church now. This sweet older lady was so excited when I asked her [what a shocking relief after what I went through at my old church]. So, I am looking forward to this.

Hi Susan, your post here is encourageing to me. I just think that intercessory prayer is something that we are commanded to do for others. The analogy "Standing in the gap" comes to my mind.

I hope and pray that someone's salvation or needs are not dependant upon me standing in the gap for them. My thoughts and my prayers are open for the Holy Spirit to lead me for the work that I can participate in for the Kingdom.
What a big responsibility and burden this could become, so I give it all to Him to enable me to pray as He leads me.

Thanks for revising this thread. I had not read it before.

gc

[Susan Unger]

Hi Susan, your post here is encourageing to me. I just think that intercessory prayer is something that we are commanded to do for others. The analogy "Standing in the gap" comes to my mind.

I hope and pray that someone's salvation or needs are not dependant upon me standing in the gap for them. My thoughts and my prayers are open for the Holy Spirit to lead me for the work that I can participate in for the Kingdom.
What a big responsibility and burden this could become, so I give it all to Him to enable me to pray as He leads me.

Thanks for revising this thread. I had not read it before.

gc

I am glad that this inspired you. Although, ever since that one day we have not met. "Things" are suddenly coming up. So I prayed today that God would remove the impediments to prayer as well as let the other lady come to understand that these impediments are really from the enemy so that she can learn to fight against them.