My pastor quoted Pollster Barna this morning

[Jim Franklin]

with results of a survey he had made that in questioning both current Christians and Non-Christian to result in the determinations that there is infintesimal difference between the two groups and their values and life styles. Whatever happened to being "in the world but not of the world," and "come out from among them and be ye separate?" I think it is probably due to people wanting to be considered a "good person" and join a church and profess without possessing a vital relationship with our Savior or discipling has not taken place.

[Meghan Schoonover]

Yes, I find that disturbing, too, Jim. But again, a lot of external things are not heart-matters. Now, the similar (or higher) divorce and abortion stats are highly troubling to me. I think, however, that this is an opportunity for the church, instead of reason for sadness.

[Anita F. Henck]

My sense is that part of this is related to the fact that churches are more willing to allow people to join who are a "work in progress" than holding membership to those who have fully "arrived" as was more common in the past. And, I'd assume that at least some of the practices that were mentioned as concerning -- divorce rate, abortion rates, etc. -- occurred before people became Christians. (Also, remember that some divorces are due to things outside the control of a believer and yet the church wants to continue to accept and embrace them.)

Finally, I think that some folks, given a choice, will respond to a survey and claim being a Christian, rather than claiming some other faith tradition, or that they have no faith tradition. I suppose that should encourage us! But, it also challenges us to find those hurting persons and help them grow in the knowledge of their (and our) Lord and Savior. They probably won't do so if we don't reach out to them, if we see them as "weaker brothers (or sisters)" in the faith.

[Barbara Moulton]

with results of a survey he had made that in questioning both current Christians and Non-Christian to result in the determinations that there is infintesimal difference between the two groups and their values and life styles. Whatever happened to being "in the world but not of the world," and "come out from among them and be ye separate?" I think it is probably due to people wanting to be considered a "good person" and join a church and profess without possessing a vital relationship with our Savior or discipling has not taken place.

I don't see many people going to church today just to have the appearance of being a "good person". There are all sorts of other ways to be a good person (by society's standards) without going to church. It's not considered the benchmark it used to be.

All that aside, iis the poll a "glass half full" or "glass half empty"?

I was thinking about this in the theology thread when we were talking about the difference between a Christian and a "nice person".

Rather than taking the fact that Christians aren't that much different in their values and lifestyles (and niceness) as an indication that Christians have slid in these areas, maybe we should consider the possiblity that society has benefited from the "salt" of Christians over the years. So that behaviours that we used to think appropriate are no longer considered that way.

I see a great deal of concern expressed for example, that Christians have bought into the ways of the world by doing things like going to movies. That as seen as a decline in Christian values. But, at the same time, there has been progress made in the things that are condoned or allowed. Things like racist and sexist attitudes, harassment in the workplace, abuse of children/spouses or impaired driving, are examples of issues on which society has made progress. Society no longer condones or turns a blind eye. Values have changed.

That's a good thing.

[Billie Goodson]

Yes, I find that disturbing, too, Jim. But again, a lot of external things are not heart-matters. Now, the similar (or higher) divorce and abortion stats are highly troubling to me. I think, however, that this is an opportunity for the church, instead of reason for sadness.

Where does this information come from? (See bolded part)

[Meghan Schoonover]

Divorce rate (http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=BarnaUpdate&BarnaUpdateID=170) (I thought I'd read in a recent article it may actually be higher than the national average but I can't find that information.)

Abortion rate (http://www.prweb.com/releases/2006/3/prweb357377.htm) (I have no idea who the group is who did the research, so it may be completely biased. I couldn't find it on Barna's site.)

[Billie Goodson]

Divorce rate (http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=BarnaUpdate&BarnaUpdateID=170) (I thought I'd read in a recent article it may actually be higher than the national average but I can't find that information.)

Abortion rate (http://www.prweb.com/releases/2006/3/prweb357377.htm) (I have no idea who the group is who did the research, so it may be completely biased. I couldn't find it on Barna's site.)

Thanks Meghan. I am going to offer a link that provides a semi-rebuttal of Barna's work. Primarily, the blogger (http://brewright.blogspot.com/2006/12/christian-divorce-rates.html)is commenting about Barna's use of the terms Christian and Non-Christian -- where he says:

It appears to stem from the work of George Barna. In well-publicized studies, he has compared divorce rates of “born again” Christians against non-Christians, and he finds little difference. Here’s the catch: his type of analysis labels as “non-Christian” many mainline Protestants, such as Presbyterians, Lutherans, and Episcopalians, and most Catholics. As such, he is comparing Christians against Christians.

[Meghan Schoonover]

Interesting! Thanks Billie. Hence the "born-again" labels...I was curious about that. Growing up "mainline" I suspected as much.

I still look at these issues as opportunities for the church to minister both within and to "the world." There are many, many hurting people affected by divorce, abortion, and all types of abuse, regardless of that stats.

[Billie Goodson]

There are many, many hurting people affected by divorce, abortion, and all types of abuse, regardless of that stats.

I agree Meghan. There is a large population of people that are covered within your quote. The church needs to be reaching to those people regardless of the number. None of these need to be looked at as just statistics within the church -- but, the people they represent. I just saw your post and had done some research into the topic because it was mentioned in another book I read recently.

[Mike Wooldridge]

Part of the problem with using these surveys is that the survey participants "self-report" themselves as Christians. That definition can vary widely from someone in a mainline denomination who shows up once a month to a Nazarene who's there every time the doors open. That's why I think these surveys while somewhat useful to church administrators and planners sometimes can be misinterpreted when used in the context of a sermon.
The other thing to remember is that everyone is at a different place in their Christian journey. It's easy to say what percentage of survey respondents are divorced but much more difficult to say what got them to that point.

[Billie Goodson]

Abortion rate (http://www.prweb.com/releases/2006/3/prweb357377.htm) (I have no idea who the group is who did the research, so it may be completely biased. I couldn't find it on Barna's site.)

Meghan, I did a little digging on the second posting referenced above. I am not willing to pay $10 to download the results of a group that refuses to identify themselves any better than their web page identifies them. They only have the one report "available" with a few others they hope to have available "soon". Since they seem to have posted that in 2006, maybe they are on the geological scale.

[Greg Gates]

There is no way that the divorce rate in the church is anywhere near that of the unchurched.

Count up how many divorces you've had in your church and compare that with what you've seen from a comparable amount of people on your job. It's never even close.

[Billie Goodson]

There is no way that the divorce rate in the church is anywhere near that of the unchurched.

Count up how many divorces you've had in your church and compare that with what you've seen from a comparable amount of people on your job. It's never even close.

Greg, you are making the mistake of applying rational study to socio-political statistics -- please refrain from doing so in the future. :basic03


Read below only for humor -- in case you didn't find the above reference humorous

I am appending this because I don't think it warrants a whole new thread -- but, I could not help but notice Greg's posting on this thread. I noticed that Greg is from Watertown, NY -- well, I have been there (at Fort Drum) a little, so I just had to go look at his profile. I know this is a serious topic -- but, visit Greg's home page for his church -- scroll down about half-way -- there is an article for his church's "School of the Arts" with a picture underneath. Go ahead, try it...see if you don't have an interesting reaction to the "School (http://acmeat.googlepages.com/home)".

http://acmeat.googlepages.com/HPIM0103.JPG/HPIM0103-full.JPG


Now, keep scrolling, and you see what the picture really goes to....I just couldn't help but notice!

Greg, I hope you don't mind! I just had to laugh at myself for how I read/viewed....

Note Greg "thanked me" before I added this whole last part.... I cast myself at his feet for mercy.