General Board Highlights

[Ryan Scott]

I just received my NCN News update with links (http://www.ncnnews.com/nphweb/html/ncn/section.jsp?sid=10000012) to reports from the General Board meetings. I'm sure we'll have comments to make, so I thought I'd throw a thread up.

One thing that's stuck out from the GS report (http://media.premierstudios.com/nazarene/docs/GSReport2008.pdf) is that USA/Canada membership is now only 38% of total membership. The internationalizing of the denomination is really coming quickly now.

Also, I'm not sure I've heard this sentiment expressed exactly this way before, "Local congregations are the primary but not exclusive unit of mission."

[Barb Bouldrey]

Local churches are the primary source of mission, our district sends Work& Witness teams, gives to Compassionate Ministries, does local outreach work projects,etc. On the district level. With people from the local churches, yes, but as a district, not a local church..

Barb

[Ryan Scott]

In the General Secretary's report, he says, "There are 429 districts of the Church of the Nazarene around the world. Of these, 169 are Phase 3; 86 are Phase 2; and 141 are Phase 1."

By my math, that adds up to more than 50% of phase 3 districts are outside the US. That seems an even more significant number than the dramatic membership rise.

[Barb Bouldrey]

We had a missionary speaker from Ethiopia at convention last summer. He said that one district started 1500 new churches in one year. I asked him if it was from the conversions from the Jesus Film and he told me that only 15% of the growth was a result of the Jesus Film. The rest was from friendship evangelism and from someone accepting Christ and going back to his/her own village and starting a church.

The church is exploding in Africa faster than they can find pastors to pastor all these new congregations. And when they do, they are pastors-in-training while they pastor. They have no time to educate them in doctrine and Nazarene government and then send them out to pastor a church.

A huge percentage of the international church are baby Christians and a huge percentage of the Phase 1 districts are baby districts.

Not explaining much, just giving some facts. LOL

I have not yet read the reports. I confess I am not one who enjoys reading reports. LOL
Barb

[David Pettigrew]

I read the highlights but for the life of me couldn't make heads or tails out of any of them. Maybe I'm just slow.

[Steve Walsh]

I just received my NCN News update with links (http://www.ncnnews.com/nphweb/html/ncn/section.jsp?sid=10000012) to reports from the General Board meetings. I'm sure we'll have comments to make, so I thought I'd throw a thread up.

One thing that's stuck out from the GS report (http://media.premierstudios.com/nazarene/docs/GSReport2008.pdf) is that USA/Canada membership is now only 38% of total membership. The internationalizing of the denomination is really coming quickly now.

Also, I'm not sure I've heard this sentiment expressed exactly this way before, "Local congregations are the primary but not exclusive unit of mission."

A few observations:
1. The increase in percentage of Nazarenes outside USA is encouraging, however I wonder if it is more a reflection on globalising rather than internationalising. For me, globalisation refers to presence whereas internationalisation (in the context of the Church of the Nazarene) refers to such things as power-sharing, and self-determination. However, I doubt whether this ratio will be accurately relected in the composition of the Board of General Superintendents, composition of the General Assembly, or headquarters executives by next year's General Assembly.
2. Growth in US church (and Canada, and Australian & NZ, and other "western nations") is incredibly poor - US are barely growing, under-performing, thus automatically accelerating the process of non-US members.
US church grew only 2496 members (0.39%) last year, whereas non-US church grew 108, 553 members (11.2%) last year. AM and PM worship are down in USA, as is Sunday School weekly attendance. US church only grew 3.7% in the last decade (less than biological growth rate), whereas non-US & Canada church grew over 73% in the same period. At current growth rates there will be less than 700,000 US Nazarenes in a decade, but 1.8 million non-US Nazarenes at the same time (28% US vs 72% non-US). I actually see that the nonUS church is accelerating in growth and consequently I would not be surprised to see USA at only 20% of the denominational membership. What new stategies need to be implemented in the "western branch" of the Church of the Nazarene?
3. WEF giving indicates that only 3% of contributions come from outside USA. Obviously there are income discrepancies between the more affluent USA and other parts of the world, but does this imbalance create tensions in organisational decision-making?

There are other interesting statistics here: http://www.nazarene.org/ministries/administration/statistics/display.aspx

[Ryan Scott]

Good observations, Steve. That's why I'm more encouraged by the growth of Phase 3 districts than I am about the growth in membership (although that's exciting as well). The Phase 3 districts get much larger delegate representation in the GA, so they will have more influence in bringing about the internationalization of the denomination.

We see an almost total end to the practice of placing non-indigenous people in leadership roles now (especially when there are viable indigenous candidates). Also a huge step forward. I've learned to be excited by any progress, even it comes painfully slow.

[William Hunter]

I must agree, only with a firm belief that the local church is the only source of mission. The district and general church could not exist without the resource they remove from the local church in time, energy, people and money. The dist. and gen. levels of the church would fold without the support of the local church. These other levels really have no mission except through the local church. No where in the New Testament do we read about the mission focus being found in a dist. or gen. denominational level. It is very much found in the local church. Any denomination must understand tha the local church is everything in the denomination. Without it there would be no dist. or gen. church organization.



Local churches are the primary source of mission, our district sends Work& Witness teams, gives to Compassionate Ministries, does local outreach work projects,etc. On the district level. With people from the local churches, yes, but as a district, not a local church..

Barb

[Billie Goodson]

There are other interesting statistics here: http://www.nazarene.org/ministries/administration/statistics/display.aspx

Interesting statistics -- especially in some areas:

The SS Responsibility list grew by 2.14% -- in the church I was involved in, basically almost anyone who showed up was put on the list. So, it looks like 2.14% more people showed up at some point. Yet, attendance dropped by 1.36%. That is interesting.

Last Sunday night, Susan and I were sitting in church and noticed something interesting. In the church we currently attend, morning worship probably runs around 80. Sunday night is probably 45 or so. In our previous church, AM was probably 250 with Sunday PM around 15. That really shocked us!

[Billy Cox]

One thing that's stuck out from the GS report (http://media.premierstudios.com/nazarene/docs/GSReport2008.pdf) is that USA/Canada membership is now only 38% of total membership. The internationalizing of the denomination is really coming quickly now.

All the more reason to stop measuring membership and start measuring something that doesn't make the USA/Canada church look so bad. I vote for metrics based solely on money. :basic05

[Billie Goodson]

All the more reason to stop measuring membership and start measuring something that doesn't make the USA/Canada church look so bad. I vote for metrics based solely on money. :basic05

As long as we get to include a portion of our taxes in the calculation. This would give a better representation of the totality of our "tithes."

[Hans Deventer]

All the more reason to stop measuring membership and start measuring something that doesn't make the USA/Canada church look so bad. I vote for metrics based solely on money. :basic05

Good idea. And compared with other countries, based on the local cost of living.

[David Pettigrew]

Good idea. And compared with other countries, based on the local cost of living.

No, no, Hans. He said something that would make us look good!

[William Hunter]

Billy, I cannot tell if you are being serious here or not. If you are, what would we gain by merely changing the window dressing. We in the USA and Canada are in desperate need to reconnect with God and get back into His driving passion.




All the more reason to stop measuring membership and start measuring something that doesn't make the USA/Canada church look so bad. I vote for metrics based solely on money. :basic05

[Billie Goodson]

Billy, I cannot tell if you are being serious here or not. If you are, what would we gain by merely changing the window dressing. We in the USA and Canada are in desperate need to reconnect with God and get back into His driving passion.


William -- you really seem to be out of touch with our culture. What you suggest would require some honest self examination -- something eschewed in our culture. What we like to do is not examine ourselves, but, instead examine the criteria.

When modernism proved it would not accomplish it's aim, we happily jettisoned it for post modernism and its new promise. At some point we will jettison that too when we tire of trying to make it fit our conclusions. I believe both were are seen as a method to kill God -- once and for all. When people find God even within the modern and postmodern views, it absolutely drives the proponents of these philosophical views mad.

No William, I think we will not engage in the honest self-inspection that you seem to desire. Instead, we will resolve to play our instruments louder as the Titanic sinks. The funny part is that some of us will even stop to clean the spittle from our instruments!

[William Hunter]

Billy, I do not believe I am out of touch with our culture. If I was my cong. would not have grown as it has. I try to be a good exegete of my culture. But I also spend large amounts of time in the Word and in prayer so that might fulfill Acts 6:4 and Eph. 4:11-16. At times there are those who wish I would just go away because all they really want to do is "play more loudly their instuments on the deck of the titanic." I am not at all interested in window dressing. I am fully focused on how to reconnect our church with Christ and what He is doing. I believe this starts with discipling our "Christian" adults. One of the first things they need help with is discipling in prayer. Three times in John 14 Jesus clearly tells us that we cannot love Him unless we obey Him in all things. That is restated in the great Commission and we too often leave off the 3rd item in that about teaching everyone "all that I have commanded you." We can neither love Him, obey Him, or be fully mature in Him, without a vital prayer life. And I was amazed when I started a "prayer class" hwo many of my long-time Nazarenes came and then asked why no one has ever tried to disciple them in prayer in all these years.

I think we are so focused on appearances and numbers for number's sake, that we are missing the One who wants to bring renovation to the human heart, as Dallad Willard calls it. All humans have a spiritual formation. God has created us as spiritual beings. Even terrorists have a spiritual formation. but to change our world, we must bring ourselves to Christ for His renovation of our hearts for us, the church, and our world to be a better place. You might be interested in reading Willard's excellent book, "Renovation of the Heart."

I've played to game of church for too many years as a pastor, doing all the promotions, working on paying budgets, etc., only to see only small amounts of growth in the church spiritually and numerically. Yes, my congregations have grown in these areas. We have been recognized for such as various dist. assemblies. but...I'm tired of settling for a little when the early church, doing things Christ's way, with Christ's anointing, grew by about 3000 members in one day, and grew daily after that. I am very dissatified with the norm. It is not another church growth seminar, etc., it is found in prayer, obediance, and being used of the Spirit to disciple my people in prayer, love for Him, and obedience.



William -- you really seem to be out of touch with our culture. What you suggest would require some honest self examination -- something eschewed in our culture. What we like to do is not examine ourselves, but, instead examine the criteria.

When modernism proved it would not accomplish it's aim, we happily jettisoned it for post modernism and its new promise. At some point we will jettison that too when we tire of trying to make it fit our conclusions. I believe both were are seen as a method to kill God -- once and for all. When people find God even within the modern and postmodern views, it absolutely drives the proponents of these philosophical views mad.

No William, I think we will not engage in the honest self-inspection that you seem to desire. Instead, we will resolve to play our instruments louder as the Titanic sinks. The funny part is that some of us will even stop to clean the spittle from our instruments!

[Billie Goodson]

Billy, I do not believe I am out of touch with our culture. If I was my cong. would not have grown as it has. I try to be a good exegete of my culture. But I also spend large amounts of time in the Word and in prayer so that might fulfill Acts 6:4 and Eph. 4:11-16. At times there are those who wish I would just go away because all they really want to do is "play more loudly their instuments on the deck of the titanic." I am not at all interested in window dressing. I am fully focused on how to reconnect our church with Christ and what He is doing. I believe this starts with discipling our "Christian" adults. One of the first things they need help with is discipling in prayer. Three times in John 14 Jesus clearly tells us that we cannot love Him unless we obey Him in all things. That is restated in the great Commission and we too often leave off the 3rd item in that about teaching everyone "all that I have commanded you." We can neither love Him, obey Him, or be fully mature in Him, without a vital prayer life. And I was amazed when I started a "prayer class" hwo many of my long-time Nazarenes came and then asked why no one has ever tried to disciple them in prayer in all these years.

I think we are so focused on appearances and numbers for number's sake, that we are missing the One who wants to bring renovation to the human heart, as Dallad Willard calls it. All humans have a spiritual formation. God has created us as spiritual beings. Even terrorists have a spiritual formation. but to change our world, we must bring ourselves to Christ for His renovation of our hearts for us, the church, and our world to be a better place. You might be interested in reading Willard's excellent book, "Renovation of the Heart."

I've played to game of church for too many years as a pastor, doing all the promotions, working on paying budgets, etc., only to see only small amounts of growth in the church spiritually and numerically. Yes, my congregations have grown in these areas. We have been recognized for such as various dist. assemblies. but...I'm tired of settling for a little when the early church, doing things Christ's way, with Christ's anointing, grew by about 3000 members in one day, and grew daily after that. I am very dissatified with the norm. It is not another church growth seminar, etc., it is found in prayer, obediance, and being used of the Spirit to disciple my people in prayer, love for Him, and obedience.

Actually William, I contend that your congregation grows because you are out of touch with a huge part of our culture. Your post seems to reflect that you invite inspection and feel a responsibility. I really don't believe that is the popular culture of the world. Please hear me, I think that being out of touch with "our" culture is a good thing.

How many do we hear that are so wanting to get off this treadmill that we find ourselves on? How many cry out for being authentic, yet, hide behind the false? I think that is one of the vital ministry areas of the Church -- to be real and authentic. To show people we love them, not to tell them we do. We are called to be in the world, but, not of it! I think people see genuine love and concern -- and that they are willing to step off of the treadmill and step onto the path of the journey with us. Maybe I am wrong -- I hope I am not.

These are some of the beauties I see in the writings of James, Kevin, Randy and others on here -- even though I may not be a fan so much of the emergent movement, I sincerely think they are striving to be authentic. They may call it emergent, I call it being like Christ to their congregation.

Christ invites us to inspect ourselves and find that which we detest about the "me" and give it to Him. Thereby, we can journey together and have a joy that sings from the soul. I am thankful that while I play Hide-and-Seek, God is the ultimate finder!

[Gina Stevenson]

Actually William, I contend that your congregation grows because you are out of touch with a huge part of our culture. Your post seems to reflect that you invite inspection and feel a responsibility. I really don't believe that is the popular culture of the world. Please hear me, I think that being out of touch with "our" culture is a good thing ................

I am thankful that while I play Hide-and-Seek, God is the ultimate finder!

There's that Hound of Heaven again. "I fled Him down the days and down the nights ... the corridors of time ... et cetera" ... a poem I could never get away from once I learned of its existence decades ago. :cool:

[Ryan Scott]

Actually William, I contend that your congregation grows because you are out of touch with a huge part of our culture. Your post seems to reflect that you invite inspection and feel a responsibility. I really don't believe that is the popular culture of the world. Please hear me, I think that being out of touch with "our" culture is a good thing.


Although he may be a little out of touch with sarcasm.

[Billie Goodson]

Although he may be a little out of touch with sarcasm.

And regretfully, I probably employ it too much.

[William Hunter]

This post for this thread could fit here, in the theology forum, or in the book review forum. Let me give you a quote from what I think is Dallas Willard's finest work, and I have a few of his books here in my study. It is from the book, "Renovation of the Heart" (subtitle: Putting On the Character of Christ). Copyright 2002 by NAVPRESS.
"God periodically moves upon His people and in their surrounding culture to achieve His everlasting purposes for that tiny stretch of cosmic time we call 'human history.' We discover, usually after the fact, that a pervasive and powerful shift has occured. It may happen to the individual, to the group, or to an entire culture. Old ways of doing things cease to be effecttive, though they may have been powerful in the past. There arises a very real danger that we will set ourselves in opposition to what God truly is doing now and aims to do in the future. Often we miss the opportunity to act with God in the now. We fail to find, quickly enough, new wineskins for the new wine.
"Such a new move of God was what happened in the emergence of the Hebrew people from Egypt 'when the time was right' and again in their entry into and emergence from Babylonian exile. Again, we see it in the emergence of a 'Christian' people within the Jewish culture, and then the emergence of a nonethnic 'body of Christ' from the Jewish church.
"Since then, the pervasive and powerful movement of God has happened again and again during the sojourn of Christ in His people on the earth: the overwhelming of classical paganism, the emergence of the monastic form of Christian devotion, the Cistercisn, the Protestant Reformation, Pietism, Wesleyan and American revivalism, and many other such movements of less historical effect, such as the twentieth-century charismatic countercultural upsurges ('Jesus People,' and so on). the rise and outworkings of such movements are clearly the result of God's hand in our midst.
"And God is still moving. The quest for spiritual formation (really, as indicated, spiritual transformation) is in fact as age-old and worldwide one. It is rooted in the deep peresonal and even bioloical need for goodness that haunts humanity. It has taken many forms and has now resurfaced at the beginning of the twenty-first century to meet our present situation. This is, I am sure, part of an incoming tide of God's life that would lift our lives today for our voyage into eternity. Our hearts cry out, 'Lord, I want to be a Christian in my heart.'
"...It is now generally recognized that the question, 'Am I a Christian?' can no longer be answered in any significant manner by siting denominational, ethnic, or national names or symbols. There are now 33,800 different Christian denominations on earth. Clearly, an adequate answer must go deeper than our religious associations. It must refer to what we are in our heart--before God, in the depths of our being, always the focal point of Christian spiritual formation..."

Willard goes on with some great insights and challenges for us. I think our leaders should read this book as they consider moving to one vision casting leader (which I think should happen). Willard is a great student of culture and seems to see in a broader view than most of us, what is happening in our world today. I would like to think I am seeing past the shallow and meaningless definitions of culture, and moving to the real universal needs of the human being is what I am trying to do in ministry, now in the local church I pastor. We seem so bent on old wineskins such as revivals as they have been in the past, setting budgets that hinder the local church, having too many layers of management in the dist. and gen. levels, etc. I suspect all of this at the gen. and dist. levels has to do with micro-managing as much as possible. I've seen so many church growth answers to beat all answers over these more than 32 yrs. of ministry. and today we find the church in America and Canada is pretty much a no-show in impacting our culture for Christ and bringing spiritual tranformation to Christians.
I think the issue of the church does not revolve around promoting the denomination (When will we give more than lip service to the truth that the denomination will do well if we get things done Christ's way?) That's not what I see Christ telling us to do. He tells us to give ourselves to training people to do all things He said (Matt. 28:18-20. For all who intensely desire to attain the inner life of Jesus Christ Himself, allowing Him to
"Be of sin the double cure,
save from wrath and make me pure."
He would guide us.
You see, the real cultural need, spiritual need of people, is not what we usually think it is. It is transformation. It makes me think of Charles Wesley's hymn "O for a Thousand Tongues": "He breaks the power of canceled sin,/He sets the pris'ner free;/His blood can make the foulest clean;/His blood availed for me." We need to get behind the fluff we call culture to the real culture of soul need.

I'd like to write more here but I may have gone on too long for this post.

[Grandma Carolyn]

To me it seems like all that giving of our money to send missionaries to other countries has been a HUGE success!
Those who want power to stay in US, should have had the forsight to not pay to send the missionaries! :)
I don't mind losing power!! :basic02
never really had any!:q)
gc




I just received my NCN News update with links (http://www.ncnnews.com/nphweb/html/ncn/section.jsp?sid=10000012) to reports from the General Board meetings. I'm sure we'll have comments to make, so I thought I'd throw a thread up.

One thing that's stuck out from the GS report (http://media.premierstudios.com/nazarene/docs/GSReport2008.pdf) is that USA/Canada membership is now only 38% of total membership. The internationalizing of the denomination is really coming quickly now.

Also, I'm not sure I've heard this sentiment expressed exactly this way before, "Local congregations are the primary but not exclusive unit of mission."

[Ryan Scott]

To me it seems like all that giving of our money to send missionaries to other countries has been a HUGE success!



I would have always said the same thing until I started talking with people from around the world. I tend to put more faith in the witness of those on the receiving end rather than the giving end.

I think it's a larger issue than that. It's difficult for a lot of us who are advantaged in some way to draw the line between how much we can help and how much has to be done by the disadvantaged on their own behalf.

I'm thinking of everything from gender issues to people with disabilities, racial discrimination, etc. At some point the "help" from those above trying to lift up those below becomes a perpetuation of the unequal relationship. It is continually a challenge to try and figure out where the line is.