Theres been some talk...about dropping sanctification

[BobHunt]

on here somewhere, about one of the fears about the COTN is leaving behind the message of Holiness or Sanctification. I sincerely hope that no one is thinking seriously of doing that, and if they are, the I feel the COTN will cease to be called one of the "Holiness Churches."
In my opinion, Holiness is found all through the scriptures, from cover to cover of the Holy Writ. And if we truely believe that the scriptures are inspired of God and are inerrant, then we have to believe that the message of Holiness is still not only relevant but a requirement. There has been one scripture going through my mind this morning, and (sorry, its the old KJV) but its "Who shall ascend unto the hill of the Lord? He who has clean hands and a pure heart." We MUST be a prepared people to enter that prepared place, otherwise Heaven wont be Heaven.
An old old writer said someone asked him a question, "How much religion do we have to have in order to make Heaven?" to which the writer replied, "Just enough to make you comfortable to stand before a Holy God." I for one still believe that when you meet Jesus face to face, on this earth, you will know a radical change. He doesnt wipe away just some of your sins, He doesnt just do a half way job, His Spirit doesnt just help you to live one and a half days without sinning, He can help you to live above sinning every day, a life pleasing to Him! Sorry, folks, this is where I differ with some of you and with the Calvinists. We sing, "would you be free from the burden of sin, theres power in the Blood" and then we diminish the power in the Blood by our theology. If there are some who sin everyday, then in my opinion, they havent gone deep enough in the fountain of God's Grace. We compare the power of Pentecost to dynamite, and then we weaken it so much by saying that His power can not keep us in the hour of temptation and trials. In this respect I think sometimes we speak out of both sides of our mouth.
The old timers always used to say that when someone was saved, there soon came a longing for something more, something deeper, because there were still some carnal traits in their life. There was anger, jealousy, selfishness or a get even spirit still present. There was still a longing to see your name in neon lights as a celebrity. There was still a want to put your will first rather then God's. Then the old timers went down to the altar of sanctification (whether at church or at home or out in the woods, in the case of the Welsh revival) and these things were burnt out and eradicated (we dont hear that word today, it is too old fashioned and out of date) and their hearts were purified by faith, and filled with the Holy Spirit. Even DL Moody who was part of the Calvinist movement (if you read the true history instead of what the Calvinists publish) said there came a time when His preaching won no new souls to God. He prayed and asked the Lord what was wrong. He knelt and received the power of God of sanctification in his life and from then on his ministy was dramatically changed.
Folks, I am sorry, but I am from the old school and I have a feeling I am going to remain here. This world has changed, it will change some more, but the Message we have has never changed, it is still the same, and always will be.

[Crystal Lutton]

I'm curious what it would look like for the CON to do this. Would there actually be no teaching on holiness or is this a reexamination of what it means to be holy and entirely sanctified? For example, whether movies and dancing are sin ;) I know that when our congregation joined with the CON the issue of entire sanctification was one that many had a hard time with. We were able to express it Hebraicaly with the term "Heart Purity"--that your heart is made pure before the Lord and you desire what is from God over what is from the world. Having studied the doctrine I think this is the closest I've read to what I understand about ES. It's like that point in my marriage where I stopped being selfish and thinking about what I was giving up and really started desiring what is best for my husband because that is what is best for me too. A deeper surrender than I entered the marriage with.

I do think some teachings around ES that I've heard are unhealthy and have caused confusion and legalism in many circles. I'm glad to hear that there may be a reexamination of this doctrine going on. But I would whole heartedly oppose an abandonment of it!

Being ritually clean is required for worship in the Temple--and Jesus' atoning sacrifice makes us ritually clean. This does not mean that there is not a high calling on our lives as we live out what it means to live in ritual purity.

[Ryan Scott]

I don't think it is an institutional problem. I'm fairly certain that the leadership of the denomination is entirely committed to holiness, even if it is in a reformulated and reconstituted manner. I don't see the tradition of the holiness message being eroded or lost at the leadership level.

The problem is that the average attender is living in a world in which evangelical Christianity is being defined in generic terms. Theologically, the Church of the Nazarene has a lot more affinity to Anglican, Episcopal and "high church" traditions than it does to evangelical denominations. The distinctive understanding of that theology is getting lost in the crush of christian radio, bestselling christian self-help books and an evangelical mainstream.

The danger is not in a formal abandonment of holiness, but in the holiness message being drowned out by louder voices in the culture at large.

[David Pettigrew]

Water, water, all around and not a drop to drink.

That's what I think of the current state of entire sanctification in the Church of the Nazarene. We're surrounded by holiness talking, teaching, preaching, and singing.

But very little living.

[Glenda Harvey]

I have read many of the posts about sanctification and holiness and I don't think that anyone wants to abandon the teaching of holiness but many want to clarify it and move it from what has for some become a legalistic view of sanctification into a more practical growth oriented view of sanctification.

[Scott Sherwood]

Theologically, the Church of the Nazarene has a lot more affinity to Anglican, Episcopal and "high church" traditions than it does to evangelical denominations.

I don't want to derail this thread or start a new thread out of an out of context quote from another poster, but I would like to hear more about this. It has been a common view expressed in classes I've taken. Ryan, can I have your permission to start a thread asking for illumination on and reaction to this quote of yours?

[Ryan Scott]

I don't want to derail this thread or start a new thread out of an out of context quote from another poster, but I would like to hear more about this. It has been a common view expressed in classes I've taken. Ryan, can I have your permission to start a thread asking for illumination on and reaction to this quote of yours?


Sure. Feel free to start one. It probably belongs on the theology forum, although it would not be out of place here.

We have touched on these issues a number of times on other threads, but one central location might be useful.

[Billy Cox]

I have read many of the posts about sanctification and holiness and I don't think that anyone wants to abandon the teaching of holiness but many want to clarify it and move it from what has for some become a legalistic view of sanctification into a more practical growth oriented view of sanctification.

I know that the terms 'holiness' and 'entire sanctification' are often used interchangeably in Nazarene circles, but they should not be seen as such.

While legalism was the inevitable product of a generation of Nazarenes who became enamored with modernism and reduced everything to a formula, legalism is far from being the only tumor inhibiting the health of churches that emphasize holiness.

I think that the future of the doctrine of holiness is at least partly found in re-focusing on things that cannot be plotted on a line graph - things like grace and faith and the work of the Holy Spirit both individually and collectively within the body of Christ.

Whether that includes the doctrine of entire sanctification as it stands right now will depend on whether it bothers us that the Bible has more to say about prohibiting homosexual acts (6 proof-texts) than it says about a second distinct work of grace as a normative, prescriptive reality.

[Roland Hearn]

I know that the terms 'holiness' and 'entire sanctification' are often used interchangeably in Nazarene circles, but they should not be seen as such.

Actually Billy while I agree and like most of what you write on this one I have to say I couldn't disagree more. On your statement about entire sanctification and homosexuality we had better include the trinity in that comparison if the basis for understanding is perfect biblical articulation. The bible is not formulaic but almost all Christian belief is at least part built upon some from of systematic theology.
Our problem as I see it is that we have failed to genuinely understand holiness and therefore have failed to interpret entire sanctification correctly making it more than what it is in some ways and less than what it is in others. A thorough understanding of holiness allows us to see that the door way to the heavenly state is the encounter with God that transforms our core to the utter most. The words "holiness" and "sanctification" are in many ways, or at least should be, interchangeable, one reflects the process and the other the state, more or less, but they are both referring in fact to the same idea . While the singular experience, suggested by the term entire sanctification, of encounter does not embrace all that is meant by the idea of holiness more is to be understood in the idea of entire sanctification then encounter alone.

[Ryan Scott]

Perhaps we need better working definitions? Wesley maintained a major distinction between the act of God in entire sanctification and the life of the believer in Christian perfection. The terms "sanctification" and "holiness" may be too vague.

[Billy Cox]

A thorough understanding of holiness allows us to see that the door way to the heavenly state is the encounter with God that transforms our core to the utter most. The words "holiness" and "sanctification" are in many ways, or at least should be, interchangeable, one reflects the process and the other the state, more or less, but they are both referring in fact to the same idea . While the singular experience, suggested by the term entire sanctification, of encounter does not embrace all that is meant by the idea of holiness more is to be understood in the idea of entire sanctification then encounter alone.

I can buy that, but I still trip over the word 'entire' because it suggests a terminus. Even the old-reliable entire sanctification proof-text (1 Thessalonians 5:23) does not support entire sanctification as a 'one and done' experience like passing the bar exam or state board medical exams.

Furthermore, when I consider Church tradition, I see entire sanctification as an idea that has been grafted into Christianity and the jury is still out as to whether the graft is going to thrive or wither.

I invite your critique though. I am not beyond being misinformed.

[Billy Cox]

Perhaps we need better working definitions? Wesley maintained a major distinction between the act of God in entire sanctification and the life of the believer in Christian perfection. The terms "sanctification" and "holiness" may be too vague.

The part of me that hates selective proof-texting of Wesley wants to get the straight scoop directly from Wesley's works and see for myself whether he really believed in entire sanctification.

The part of me that would rather watch my latest DVD from Netflix seems to win more often than not. Darn my weak flesh!! :)

[Roland Hearn]

The part of me that hates selective proof-texting of Wesley wants to get the straight scoop directly from Wesley's works and see for myself whether he really believed in entire sanctification.

The part of me that would rather watch my latest DVD from Netflix seems to win more often than not. Darn my weak flesh!! :)

The word "entire" has created problems for many people but it probably is because the focus is put in the wrong points. I am entirely married to my wife but my marriage is far from finished growing. It is very much in the same sense. The reality is that the Church of the Nazarene is probably the only denomination that hangs on to the term "entire sanctification" as the primary way to communicate the idea that Wesley predominantly used the phrase "Christian Perfection" to communicate. I am not overly hung up on the phrase. The word sanctification comes from the Latin word "sanctos" and the word holiness from the Greek "hagios" which both mean "holy" so that would suggest an interchangeableness. The truth is that Wesley observed the reality first, perceived it in the writings of the church and then discovered the reality in scripture. I think your observation about the modern church needing to create a formula to reflect a reality is probably fare. That need has no doubt created a distortion. The reality of the holy heart has been the experience of Christendom, at least for some, since the day of Pentecost but it wasn't until the 19th century that denominations rose up to proclaim the formula on how to receive it. That probably suggests there is an essentialness to the experience that transcends formulas. Having said that however the birth of holiness denominations means there has been at least a component of the church that keeps bringing it before the church that simply understanding ourselves as "escaping from hell" is not enough to define the Christian life. There is available to every Christian the opportunity to surrender their sources of worth and identity so completely to the love of Christ that He alone defines our existence. The result is an individual full of love, grace, hope and joy rather than defensiveness, egocentricity, and self protection. It is the reality of this relationship that begs analysis and explanation and that was the starting point for Wesley. I think however, if we are urged to press on into grace and discover all of the transformational power that is there then we have done enough for God is able to do all that He is able to do and His grace is sufficient. A desire for Him leads inevitable to an encounter with Him that leaves the seeker entirely devoted to him....oops there is that word again.

[Ryan Scott]

The best explanation I've heard (although this is not explicitly from Wesley) is that the "entire" refers to the person and not the sanctification.

[Crystal Lutton]

The best explanation I've heard (although this is not explicitly from Wesley) is that the "entire" refers to the person and not the sanctification.
I hadn't heard it worded that way but it's perfect for what I try to explain. In our congregation we call it "Heart Purity" because the whole heart is devoted to God. It doesn't mean you don't sin; it just means your desire is wholly for the Lord.

[Anne and Dwayne Hood]

It means that your entire life is totally surrended and dedicated to serving and obeying Christ--and you do not intentionally sin, if you know something is wrong. If you did something mistkenly without the realization, that it was wrong, the blood covers, and it is not imputed to you as sin.

[Ken Pell]

It means that your entire life is totally surrended and dedicated to serving and obeying Christ--and you do not intentionally sin, if you know something is wrong. If you did something mistkenly without the realization, that it was wrong, the blood covers, and it is not imputed to you as sin.

I don't want to misunderstand you. I am not trying to trick you or trap you.

Are you saying that one who is sanctified never violates what they know to be a divine moral standard?

Are you saying that you never violate what you know to be a divine moral standard? (I am assuming you, like myself, would claim to be sanctified.)

[Jill Mickelson]

It's really pretty easy to experience entire sanctification......I wasn't in the Nazarene Church. But the LORD led me to a book called: "Be Filled with the Holy Spirit". I have never heard of such a thing (filled with the Holy Spirit)....I was afraid it was some charismatic thing. I was a pretty new Christian. I read the book and went to the Pastor and told him that if he taught this to his people, this would spread throughout our town. He gave me a LOOK: "there goes Jill again!"
I was so hungry to learn about this filling of the Holy Spirit. The Lord brought books in my life about this topic. I kept praying that I would be filled with the Holy Spirit.

Later we were in a different Church. The Pastor was ON FIRE for the LORD! One day at Church, we sang, "I SURRENDER ALL".....a deep cry rose up from the depths of my being, I went to the front. MY LIFE WAS CHANGED. STILL IS! I keep telling the Lord almost daily: "I surender all, fill me FULL to OVERFLOWING!"!!!!!

BUT BE VERY CAREFUL! THIS PASTOR WAS KICKED OUT OF THE CHURCH! The Church is now a theater. So very sad.

[Charles W Christian]

It's really pretty easy to experience entire sanctification......I wasn't in the Nazarene Church. But the LORD led me to a book called: "Be Filled with the Holy Spirit". I have never heard of such a thing (filled with the Holy Spirit)....I was afraid it was some charismatic thing. I was a pretty new Christian. I read the book and went to the Pastor and told him that if he taught this to his people, this would spread throughout our town. He gave me a LOOK: "there goes Jill again!"
I was so hungry to learn about this filling of the Holy Spirit. The Lord brought books in my life about this topic. I kept praying that I would be filled with the Holy Spirit.

Later we were in a different Church. The Pastor was ON FIRE for the LORD! One day at Church, we sang, "I SURRENDER ALL".....a deep cry rose up from the depths of my being, I went to the front. MY LIFE WAS CHANGED. STILL IS! I keep telling the Lord almost daily: "I surender all, fill me FULL to OVERFLOWING!"!!!!!

BUT BE VERY CAREFUL! THIS PASTOR WAS KICKED OUT OF THE CHURCH! The Church is now a theater. So very sad.

Maybe we want the Spirit's fulness, but we want to control things, too! That seems to be a problem (see John 3)....The pastor you spoke of and others may have been caught up in the Spirit's movement, but it didn't fit someone else's defintion of the Spirit's movement! We probably (definitely) can't have it both ways, can we? :-)

Hang in there...>
Blessings,
Charles

[Crystal Lutton]

I'm confused . . . where in her post is the suggestion that the pastor who was on fire for the Lord and led his congregation in "I surrender all" was "out of control"? *scratches head* Maybe I"m misreading you :)

[Anne and Dwayne Hood]

Ken,I never purposely or intentionally do anything that I feel is a sin. that doe not make me head perfect, due to the fact that I am a human, full of faults. But, why should be purposely, lie, steal, use God's word in vain, etc. if we have surrendered our all to Him?
But, yes we may make a mistake that causes lives to be lost, but it was not something that we did knowlingly, and knew that lives would be lost. That is our imperfect head knowledge. but, our heart can be pure. Otherwise wht was the point of Christ death for our sins, if we were going to continue-intentionally-in them?

Do you make a habit of purposefully sinning, knowing at the time that you are transgressing the known law of God--but do it anyway?

[Ken Pell]

Ken,I never purposely or intentionally do anything that I feel is a sin. that doe not make me head perfect, due to the fact that I am a human, full of faults. But, why should be purposely, lie, steal, use God's word in vain, etc. if we have surrendered our all to Him?
But, yes we may make a mistake that causes lives to be lost, but it was not something that we did knowlingly, and knew that lives would be lost. That is our imperfect head knowledge. but, our heart can be pure. Otherwise wht was the point of Christ death for our sins, if we were going to continue-intentionally-in them?

Do you make a habit of purposefully sinning, knowing at the time that you are transgressing the known law of God--but do it anyway?

Anne:
Just so we understand what is being discussed, your original post said the following
It means that your entire life is totally surrended and dedicated to serving and obeying Christ--and you do not intentionally sin, if you know something is wrong. If you did something mistkenly without the realization, that it was wrong, the blood covers, and it is not imputed to you as sin.

No I do not make it a "habit" to purposefully sin. But, if I was to say that I have not purposefully sinned since my crisis experience, I would lie and thus have committed at least my second purposeful sin since. :laughing

For the record I understand ALL sin .. even egregious ones ... not just my "mistakes" to be atoned for and I do find it astounding to think there are saints alive who have never purposefully sinned (even multiple times) since their crisis experience. I am not not saying you or others do not qualify ... I just find it astounding. :)

[Gerald Spear]

Sin is a wilful (choice) transgression against the known will of God.

Can I sin? Yes, I can make a choice to sin.
Do I wilfully (on purpose) sin? No

Do I make mistakes in judgment and actions? yes

A mistake the first time is not a sin(unless I do not correct it).

If I chose to make that same "mistake" again (which is now not a mistake, but a wilful act) then this is a SIN.

Until I make it right with God and ask His forgiveness, I have broken my relationship with Him and have "become a backslider".

I believe in Entire santification, the second work of grace, Holiness, or filled with the Spirit, I use all of the terms interchangeable, they all have the same life changing effect.

I am glad that when I joined in with the Nazarene family 66 years ago the message was "Holiness Unto The Lord" ------Holiness unto the Lord now and forever. The message has not changed, the "messanger" has changed.

I am glad that I still have a pastor (over 70 years of age) who preaches
on living a sanctified life.

Drop the name sanctification, Holiness, but you will never change Gods requirements, and will never discredit His power to give you the ability to live a Holy life.

At one time "Holiness Unto the Lord" was the theme song of the Church of the Nazarene.

[Chris Easton]

I hope things are not as bad as it seems you all are making it out to be regarding the issue of the doctrine of entire sanctification. I think changing language will be helpful and make us confess what we have been living all along.

I think it is easy to see the scars within the church. I am from central ohio and I see an overwhelming thirst for more of God. I don't think my experience is normative, however I think maybe we are quick to say how unholy the people in our churches are. I am grateful to see God' grace is breaking through. It is a gradual, life long journey that more people are walking toward.

Grace and Peace,

Chris

[Anne and Dwayne Hood]

Many people have gone to heaven "Sanctified" that possibly never heard of any of our terms for it. God knows when someone is completely surrendered to him, and that He comes first and foremost in their hearts and lifes.
Dwayne says that the term entirely means the person being entirely sanctified-surrendered to God is all he ever thought it was. Where did anyone come up with another meaning for it. Totally surrendered, entirely, completely, or whatever you come up with just as long as He is first and foremost in our life--Heart purity, Christian perfection, sanctified wholly, etc. Just have it in your heart and mind and being! Remember that sin cannot enter heave. If God had to turn His head, when Christ bore our sin to the cross, He, also, will not let sin enter heaven. So how can we live a life of sinning, (intentionally) and expect to be pure, suddenly, just because we left this place that we call life or living.

[Anne and Dwayne Hood]

It seems an awfully big statement from ninth grade literature that was quoted from The Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner, and conecting it with sanctification. I live, most of the time, a joyful life around sanctified people. Maybe things are totally different, where some of you others live. David, David, David, think again about some of the precious people you know. Maybe some are at a different stage of maturity, mentally and spiritually.

[Crystal Lutton]

I think one of the issues I have with how the current Manual expresses ES is this--it sounds like a "higher level" you've attained. Like God has "raised you above" others. Those words aren't used, but that was how I felt when I first read it and it bristled. When our already formed congregation was deciding whether to become a Nazarene congregation we talked of nothing but this article for over a month. I was able to explain it to many of our board members in a way that was much more meaningful and acceptable to them but they kept asking, "Then why doesn't it say that?!?" I could only chalk it up to having been written at a different time and with an effort to choose specific words that addressed the confusion over the idea they were facing at that time. And I had to admit it was one of the reasons I believe the COTN went through a more legalistic time. If ES is a "higher" place then any good member will want to "attain" that. The fact that the Manual says it's something done by the HS does not mean that someone won't feel that the "conviction" to "be" ES is anything less than that prompting from the HS to do it.

It competes with the rejection of Calvin's "predestined elect" in a way that is troubling. We say that God didn't choose who would be saved and who wouldn't. But the way this article is worded sounds like God does choose who gets to be more holy. So you're "in", but you're not in with the in crowd.

If ES is about heart holiness, about surrender, about maturing to a place of greater or even full surrender to the Lord then we need words that express that to today's member. I've shared with some who are trying to understand this and are married that on my wedding day I was 100% married to my husband--and this is comparable to how we are 100% sanctified when we accept Messiah and are saved. But there was a point in my marriage and I can't really put a date on it--though it was around the 7th year--when I was aware that I was experiencing being married in a much deeper and more surrendered way. Many things I'd done out of obligation or because it was my job were now things I did purely out of love. Things I'd grumbled about were no longer things I saw worthy of grumbling about--and were things I desired to do because I loved him so much. This is how I experience ES. Before ES I was faced with a choice each day between serving God or serving my flesh. Yes, it had been nailed to the cross, but it was dying a slow death ;) Then something happened and my greatest desire was to love God and do what He wanted because HE had earned my trust so deeply, HE had been so faithful, that I was surrendered to Him in a deeper way and the idea of sinning simply wasn't an issue. I was focusing on being faithful, loving fully, seeking His face. And if He brought something to my awareness that was unpleasing to him or not good for me then I wanted it gone! There may still be a struggle of habit change, but it wasn't rooted in a desire to hold onto that sin, it was simply rooted in the challenge that change is for me. And I knew God was patient, and serious. So I make the changes.

If we could find language that would express that deeper experience of relationship, that greater level of dying to self, that pure heart holiness that comes from experiencing God's faithfulness, I believe that would express ES in a way that this current generation needs to hear it.

[Anne and Dwayne Hood]

It has never crossed my mind that ES is thought of as a higher level of spirituality, than others. It is the total surrender of ourselves, and our "all" to God, that we should all, as Christians be striving for. Romans 12:1-3