Let's talk about the role of prayer in renewal

[Dave McClung]

Recently I have received emails from several church leaders. Their response to my suggestion that the Church of the Nazarene needs a turnaround is that all the Church of the Nazarene needs is more prayer. They say "Prayer in the answer."

I certainly support the idea that we should all pray more. Why? Because Jesus said that we should. But I would like to have some discussion on what is the proper role of prayer.

I have used this illustration before, but I think it is a good one. Linda grew up in west Texas. When I married her, I joined a family of west Texas cotton farmers. Over the years I have observed them with interest. Many years ago, the cotton farmers moved to west Texas because the land was cheap. It is an ideal place to raise cotton when it rains. Unfortunately, it is a semidesert area where rain is unusual. They get enough rain for a good crop about one year out of four. Their approach to life is to plant cotton and pray for rain. When they don't make a crop (3 out of 4 years) they say it is because they didn't pray enough.

Is it scripitural for us to live our lives in a way that the only way we can be successful is for God to perform a miracle? I think not. I find nothing in the scripture that suggests that when normal weather patterns continue, it is becasue people are not praying enough.

To apply that line of thinking to the our church. When we fail to follow proven management principles and our system doesn't work effectively, should we blame our failures on a lack of prayer? Couldn't it be that we aren't using the wisdom that God has given to us?

You ask, what managment principles have we violated?

1. Responsibility and authority must go together. You shouldn't have one without the other. We have designed the General Superintendent and District Suprintendent positions so that they have a lot of responsibility, but very little authority.

2. Management requires that conduct that is inconsistent with the plan gets a different response than conduct that is consistent with the plan. We have designed a system where there is minimum accountability.

3. Effective communication is essential. Communication of our denominational vision depends on six individuals traveling all over the world speaking to a relatively small group of people who gather at district assemblies. They may have been a good system for the early 1900's but is totally inadequate now.

Will simply praying more fix these issues? I think not.

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

At one time Moses told the Children of Israel to "stand firm and see the salvation of the Lord." He told the people that if they did that, they would see God fight for them. However, the Lord said to Moses, "Why are you crying out to me? Tell the people to move on."

There's a time for waiting on the Lord, but when we know the course of action we are to take, and instead have another prayer meeting, we aren't being pious - we are being disobedient.

Sometimes the need is for courageous leadership to say, "We've prayed, we've heard from God. Its time to move forward."

[G R 'Scott' Cundiff]

Billy Cox - you crack me up! Great "I'm praying" response.

[Hans Deventer]

Is it scripitural for us to live our lives in a way that the only way we can be successful is for God to perform a miracle?

[...]

To apply that line of thinking to the our church. When we fail to follow proven management principles and our system doesn't work effectively, should we blame our failures on a lack of prayer? Couldn't it be that we aren't using the wisdom that God has given to us?

I'm sounding like a broken record but I totally agree, Dave. It's two sides of a coin. Merely praying won't do it, nor will merely taking organisational measures.

If praying is the only thing, we should not even hold assemblies at all, we should use that time to pray. Yet the church in Jerusalem got together to discuss their problems and could come to a conclusion and say: "It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us........." They did not see prayer and discussion as mutually exclusive, on the contrary. We need both.

[Billy Cox]

Recently I have received emails from several church leaders. Their response to my suggestion that the Church of the Nazarene needs a turnaround is that all the Church of the Nazarene needs is more prayer. They say "Prayer in the answer."

I certainly support the idea that we should all pray more. Why? Because Jesus said that we should. But I would like to have some discussion on what is the proper role of prayer.

I have used this illustration before, but I think it is a good one. Linda grew up in west Texas. When I married her, I joined a family of west Texas cotton farmers. Over the years I have observed them with interest. Many years ago, the cotton farmers moved to west Texas because the land was cheap. It is an ideal place to raise cotton when it rains. Unfortunately, it is a semidesert area where rain is unusual. They get enough rain for a good crop about one year out of four. Their approach to life is to plant cotton and pray for rain. When they don't make a crop (3 out of 4 years) they say it is because they didn't pray enough.

Is it scripitural for us to live our lives in a way that the only way we can be successful is for God to perform a miracle? I think not. I find nothing in the scripture that suggests that when normal weather patterns continue, it is becasue people are not praying enough.

To apply that line of thinking to the our church. When we fail to follow proven management principles and our system doesn't work effectively, should we blame our failures on a lack of prayer? Couldn't it be that we aren't using the wisdom that God has given to us?

You ask, what managment principles have we violated?

1. Responsibility and authority must go together. You shouldn't have one without the other. We have designed the General Superintendent and District Suprintendent positions so that they have a lot of responsibility, but very little authority.

2. Management requires that conduct that is inconsistent with the plan gets a different response than conduct that is consistent with the plan. We have designed a system where there is minimum accountability.

3. Effective communication is essential. Communication of our denominational vision depends on six individuals traveling all over the world speaking to a relatively small group of people who gather at district assemblies. They may have been a good system for the early 1900's but is totally inadequate now.

Will simply praying more fix these issues? I think not.

It is interesting that you mention the cotton farmers in West Texas. I heard a story on NPR in the past few months about West Texas farmers (maybe it was cotton) who are making lots of money after putting up wind turbines on their less-than-ideal farmland. I think it is a great corollary to your illustration because the solution to the farmers' financial woes was not for God to send more rain, but for them to change their mindset and harvest something that is plentiful in West Texas.

More often than not, the 'prayer is the answer' truism is just religious code to say, "it's a good idea, but I'm not going to risk my day job to make it a reality."

If prayer is needed, it is for God to change us.

[Billy Cox]

I'm sounding like a broken record but I totally agree, Dave. It's two sides of a coin. Merely praying won't do it, nor will merely taking organisational measures.

If praying is the only thing, we should not even hold assemblies at all, we should use that time to pray. Yet the church in Jerusalem got together to discuss their problems and could come to a conclusion and say: "It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us........." They did not see prayer and discussion as mutually exclusive, on the contrary. We need both.

It is ironic that you allude to the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15. I compare the story to a farmer standing in front of the open doors of his empty barn yelling after the escaped horses, "You horses can run free for a bit, but don't go past the road and come back before dawn... OK? are you listening to me??"

The Twelve didn't need to think/pray very hard about the decision to give the Gentile Church permission to do what they were already doing; as if they could stop them anyway.

For a biblical example, I refer to the story of Elijah and the prophets of Baal on Mount Carmel. The moral of the story? Sincerity and lengthy prayer are useless if you're praying to the wrong god.

[Billy Cox]

Billy Cox - you crack me up! Great "I'm praying" response.

haha, I'm glad you found it funny. I have a twisted sense of irony. :)

[Crystal Lutton]

I hesitate to post this because I don't want people to assume I think you *aren't* doing this, but I'm coming at this from my counseling experience and something very important I've learned. I may just be stating the obvious :) I've found it absolutely vital in so many situations and sometimes people who haven't studied it specifically will do it naturally . . . except in very important situations when it falls by the wayside in the wake of the important stuff.

Change is scary. Even good change is scary. Acknowledging this fact can often make it less scary for the person facing change. We can never know the depth of insecurity in someone we are dealing with and when we take the time to communicate with reflected and validated feelings we often find that the resistance melts and everyone can come together looking for solutions.

Learning and doing something new is change that is really scary--not to sound age-ist, but younger post moderns seem to have less resistance to it because it's just been part of our life forever. But regardless of age the longer you've been doing something one way the harder it is to see how it could work another way. Grasping the new vision helps, but we're talking a lot of big changes and that means a ton of little transitions.

I'm very excited by a lot of the ideas I'm reading from you, Dave. I'm excited to see that there are people with the positions and the vision to effect some of the change I've been praying for. I think your willingness to talk about it here, and I am sure elsewhere, shows a humility and openness to expanding your ideas to be even more effective.

I think perhaps looking for the logic in the resistance in order to alter or improve the ideas is only part of the need. Looking at the feelings behind the resistance is going to be the greatest challenge and obstacle. But if the pursuit of this change is done with that in mind it could go through without many of the challenges it would otherwise face.

[Dave McClung]

It is interesting that you mention the cotton farmers in West Texas. I heard a story on NPR in the past few months about West Texas farmers (maybe it was cotton) who are making lots of money after putting up wind turbines on their less-than-ideal farmland. I think it is a great corollary to your illustration because the solution to the farmers' financial woes was not for God to send more rain, but for them to change their mindset and harvest something that is plentiful in West Texas.

More often than not, the 'prayer is the answer' truism is just religious code to say, "it's a good idea, but I'm not going to risk my day job to make it a reality."

If prayer is needed, it is for God to change us.

Yes. The windmills are going up in cotton fields all across West Texas. Now, when the farmers gather to pray for wind, there is a good chance that their prayers will be answered.

[Ryan Scott]

I've found that we often mistake the purpose of prayer. We should pray with the intention of changing something about ourselves. We pray because we are not what we should be or want to be. Most often it seems people pray to change everything else but themselves. If only those other things were different, then I would be okay.

I don't think prayer is effective as a solution to external issues. Does God work by changing external forces? Definitely. Should we continue to ask for things like an end to war, poverty, and injustice? Absolutely. Should we expect these things to happen without correspondingly radical changes in ourselves? I doubt it.

[Billy Cox]

Thought of another analogy...

I worked for a few years for a company in the subprime mortgage lending business. Interestingly, they also have a foreclosure management business unit that is doing quite well now.

Even as a low-level minion, I had an inside track that the gravy train was coming to an end at least a year before the subprime mess started making news. Some people (my boss included) preferred to forecast staff expansion as though the subprime lending market was just beginning to hit its stride. Others saw an entire office of new hires laid off when the Fed raised interest rates by a half percent, and understood that the party was over. Unfortunately for me, I followed my boss' delusion up until the day I was downsized.

I am convinced that the same phenomenon is at work in the USA COTN. Many see the signs that all is not well, and some of those people are alarmed by it. Surely there is a tipping point or key event that vaults the issue from rumor and speculation to the main topic of discussion at district assembly and perhaps even in local churches.

What would that tipping point be? The only thing I can imagine is if a Nazarene school has to close up shop or financial hardship forces some prominent district to merge with a neighboring district.

[Susan Unger]

Yet, the two vibrant churches that come to mind the quickest [Brooklyn Tabernacle and Cali Colombia CotN] are ones that were built on prayer. I think more prayer is the answer.

[Genevieve Boller]

Yet, the two vibrant churches that come to mind the quickest [Brooklyn Tabernacle and Cali Colombia CotN] are ones that were built on prayer. I think more prayer is the answer.

I think the point is that nothing is built solely on prayer. The leadership of the Columbia church, for example, made some very intentional plans and acted upon them (and continues to do so).

Not only that, but I don't understand how anyone can say "we need MORE prayer!" when there is no way any of us could know how much prayer is already being done. ? I'm confident many, many people are earnestly praying and have been for some time. (I'm not necessarily aiming this at you, Susan ;)).

Prayer is step one, and it must undergird everything else, but action--often very bold action-- is necessary. Even when crossing the Red Sea, God didn't part the water until Moses acted and struck it with his staff...

The biblical pattern is "God calls, servant accepts, God instructs, servant acts."

[Dave McClung]

Thought of another analogy...

I worked for a few years for a company in the subprime mortgage lending business. Interestingly, they also have a foreclosure management business unit that is doing quite well now.

Even as a low-level minion, I had an inside track that the gravy train was coming to an end at least a year before the subprime mess started making news. Some people (my boss included) preferred to forecast staff expansion as though the subprime lending market was just beginning to hit its stride. Others saw an entire office of new hires laid off when the Fed raised interest rates by a half percent, and understood that the party was over. Unfortunately for me, I followed my boss' delusion up until the day I was downsized.

I am convinced that the same phenomenon is at work in the USA COTN. Many see the signs that all is not well, and some of those people are alarmed by it. Surely there is a tipping point or key event that vaults the issue from rumor and speculation to the main topic of discussion at district assembly and perhaps even in local churches.

What would that tipping point be? The only thing I can imagine is if a Nazarene school has to close up shop or financial hardship forces some prominent district to merge with a neighboring district.

I don't think we will be able to identify a specific "tipping point" but I believe there are several --

1. Obviously, I believe the discussion on NazNet is having a greater impact than any of us thought possible.
2. The "Thought Partners" are having more impact than any of us know. For those that don't know, the Thought Partners are a group of leaders that the Board of General Superintendents have commisioned to advise them.
3. This week the COK pastors are meeting. COK stands for churches of 1,000 or more. I believe those pastors are having a positive impact.
4. Groups of Nazarenes all across the country are getting together to discuss change.

None of these alone will be the "tipping point" that you describe but all of them together will turn the tide.

[Dave McClung]

Yet, the two vibrant churches that come to mind the quickest [Brooklyn Tabernacle and Cali Colombia CotN] are ones that were built on prayer. I think more prayer is the answer.

Susan, both of those churches are great examples of churches where prayer has been at the center of everything they have done, but they have both done a lot more than pray.

I certainly don't argue that pray shouldn't be at the center of what we do, but prayer must be accompanied by action.

[Susan Unger]

Susan, both of those churches are great examples of churches where prayer has been at the center of everything they have done, but they have both done a lot more than pray.

I certainly don't argue that pray shouldn't be at the center of what we do, but prayer must be accompanied by action.

Your first post gave me the impression that you did argue that prayer shouldn't be at the center of what we do.

[David Pettigrew]

This is why we sing "Trust and Obey". Stay on your knees till you trust, but then get up and obey.

[Anne and Dwayne Hood]

Prayer is most likely the biggest failure we have. Some of us are too busy trying to get things working, the way WE want them.
Been there done that.

[Dave McClung]

Prayer is most likely the biggest failure we have. Some of us are too busy trying to get things working, the way WE want them.
Been there done that.

Anne, I know you well enough to know that you meant, "Failure to pray is most likely the biggest failure we have........"

Am i correct?

[Carol Kane]

First, Dave, let me say thanks for this room in Naznet to read, dream, pray hope and yearn for change in our denomination. Thank You.

With interest I have read this thread and may I share a true story?

There was a little girl who because of years of abuse in foster care and a learning problem had exhibited a horrible fear of dogs. One day this child was confronted on her way to school by a dog (a collie) and became paralyzed with fear and could not move one more step (she was very close to school when this happened). Her teacher seeing the girl just frozen in terror came and rescued her. During this time the little girl kept repeating the phrase "I might see a dog". She had convinced herself as a coping mechanism that she might see a dog but because of her denial refused to see the dog. Does this make sense?

I certainly agree that we need to pray for change but change needs to come about along with action. We can look at the CON and say I might see a need for change and right in front of our very eyes are evidences of the need for change, but we respond by saying we need to pray for change? Pray yes, but actions are needed to affirm what is being prayed about. We need a "teacher" to come along side and help us change. Dave, you are one of those "Teachers" Thank You.

[Dave McClung]

First, Dave, let me say thanks for this room in Naznet to read, dream, pray hope and yearn for change in our denomination. Thank You.

With interest I have read this thread and may I share a true story?

There was a little girl who because of years of abuse in foster care and a learning problem had exhibited a horrible fear of dogs. One day this child was confronted on her way to school by a dog (a collie) and became paralyzed with fear and could not move one more step (she was very close to school when this happened). Her teacher seeing the girl just frozen in terror came and rescued her. During this time the little girl kept repeating the phrase "I might see a dog". She had convinced herself as a coping mechanism that she might see a dog but because of her denial refused to see the dog. Does this make sense?

I certainly agree that we need to pray for change but change needs to come about along with action. We can look at the CON and say I might see a need for change and right in front of our very eyes are evidences of the need for change, but we respond by saying we need to pray for change? Pray yes, but actions are needed to affirm what is being prayed about. We need a "teacher" to come along side and help us change. Dave, you are one of those "Teachers" Thank You.

Thanks, Carole. Your post means a lot to me and your illustration is right on point.

Let me share the incident that caused me to write th post that started this discussion. Linda and I recently visited Linda's home church. The church is in long-term decline and is nearing the point of closing. While we were there, Linda was working at the church and noticed some children in the yard of the home that is next dooor to the church. Linda walked over and invited them to Sunday School. They looked shocked and said, "No one has invited us to church before."

I wonder how many Nazarene Congregations are praying for the Lord to send them more people, when they have not invited those who live next door?

What will it take? A revival? A renewal? A reorganization? Training? of simply caring?

Will the answer come from the local church, the district, the general church or somewhere else?

I am convinced the answer must be "all of the above." The Church of the Nazarene needs to have a revival of passion for the lost that extends from the smallest Nazarene Congregations to the highest positions in our church. No part should be left out.

[Gene Tatsch]

....
I certainly don't argue that pray shouldn't be at the center of what we do, but prayer must be accompanied by action.

Definitely! At a minimum, in the context of "... tarry until you receive power ..."
These days, when the waiting seems to take too long, we seem to impatiently "do something" in our own power rather than wait until His power is given ? (the issue in Rhonda Hughey's book)
Which was how Saul was disqualified as King of Israel.
Which means at a deeper level we're "doing it our own way"
... aka sin. :gen06

[Marsha Lynn]

Let me share the incident that caused me to write the post that started this discussion. Linda and I recently visited Linda's home church. The church is in long-term decline and is nearing the point of closing. While we were there, Linda was working at the church and noticed some children in the yard of the home that is next dooor to the church. Linda walked over and invited them to Sunday School. They looked shocked and said, "No one has invited us to church before."

I wonder how many Nazarene Congregations are praying for the Lord to send them more people, when they have not invited those who live next door?


Not many, I would say. I don't think someone can faithfully plead with great longing for more people for long before they start looking around for evidence of God's answer. At that point they would see the children next door.

I once gave up a position because of this very subject. I was calling for a period of earnest prayer and reconsideration of our goals and the direction we were heading with our children's ministries. Others said that prayer was all fine and good but we needed to add actions to our prayers. When I didn't agree to execute the plan they wanted, they executed it around me. Their logic was beyond criticism. There was nothing inherently wrong with the plan they executed, as far as they could see. There was no perceivable way that executing the plan would do any harm. So they silenced my protests and executed it.

The plan was intended to attract children to the church. I don't remember that it did so. However, it certainly opened the door wide for a new director of children's ministries the following year, one who was more action-oriented and less hung up on the idea of spending time in prayer for the children and our ministry to them.

I wonder where we would be now if we had been allowed to skip that one event in an effort to give ourselves to an extended time of prayer and fasting. Would it have done any harm? Maybe things would be no different. Maybe it was simply time for me to get out of the way in the children's department and move on to other ministries.

What will it take? A revival? A renewal? A reorganization? Training? of simply caring?


I would submit that simple caring has never become a reality apart from prayer. True love always traces back to the heart of God and prayer opens the door for that love to flow into the hearts of God's people. A church that doesn't care probably isn't spending all that much time seeking the heart of God.

Marsha

[Edith K. Thurmond]

It is interesting that you mention the cotton farmers in West Texas. I heard a story on NPR in the past few months about West Texas farmers (maybe it was cotton) who are making lots of money after putting up wind turbines on their less-than-ideal farmland......

It's Mr. T. Boone Pickens behind those West Texas farmers putting up those wind turbine farms, with the largest one being located in Sweetwater, TX. He is very serious about changing the way the U.S. thinks about and uses energy; you can read about it at www.thepickensplan.com (http://www.thepickensplan.com). Perhaps you could have Mr. J. David McClung's constructive ideas at www.themcclungplan.com (http://www.themcclungplan.com). :) Oh, never mind because those ideas are already listed at www.naznet.com (http://www.naznet.com). :gen07

Enjoying the discussions by everyone,

[BobHunt]

maybe someone has already said this, if so, I am sorry. We talk about the church or the COTN needing change, and I am sure it does, but if we (and I mean me as well) become radically changed and get out of our comfort zones, change will come to our churches as well. I cant help bringing in the title of a book I saw, but never have read yet, its called: "If you want to walk on water, you have to get out of the boat."
Im sure prayer has a lot to do with this, but sometimes we gotta quit prayin and do some walkin!!!!

[Marsha Lynn]

I cant help bringing in the title of a book I saw, but never have read yet, its called: "If you want to walk on water, you have to get out of the boat."
Im sure prayer has a lot to do with this, but sometimes we gotta quit prayin and do some walkin!!!!

That book (by John Ortberg) is on my list of "Top 10 books I have never read." Another entry on the same list is "Too Busy Not to Pray" by Bill Hybels.

One thing we might need to consider, however, is that Peter didn't actually have the faith necessary to walk on water. When he started to sink he had to be rescued by Jesus, who was coming from a place of prayer. Maybe we need to sometimes be back on the shore praying rather than in the boat battling the contrary winds while someone else does the praying and comes up with the whole "walking on water" idea.

Just a thought. (More thoughts along this line here (http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php?t=21171).)

;)

Marsha

[Grandma Carolyn]

I hesitate to post this because I don't want people to assume I think you *aren't* doing this, but I'm coming at this from my counseling experience and something very important I've learned. I may just be stating the obvious :) I've found it absolutely vital in so many situations and sometimes people who haven't studied it specifically will do it naturally . . . except in very important situations when it falls by the wayside in the wake of the important stuff.

Change is scary. Even good change is scary. Acknowledging this fact can often make it less scary for the person facing change. We can never know the depth of insecurity in someone we are dealing with and when we take the time to communicate with reflected and validated feelings we often find that the resistance melts and everyone can come together looking for solutions.

Learning and doing something new is change that is really scary--not to sound age-ist, but younger post moderns seem to have less resistance to it because it's just been part of our life forever. But regardless of age the longer you've been doing something one way the harder it is to see how it could work another way. Grasping the new vision helps, but we're talking a lot of big changes and that means a ton of little transitions.

I'm very excited by a lot of the ideas I'm reading from you, Dave. I'm excited to see that there are people with the positions and the vision to effect some of the change I've been praying for. I think your willingness to talk about it here, and I am sure elsewhere, shows a humility and openness to expanding your ideas to be even more effective.

I think perhaps looking for the logic in the resistance in order to alter or improve the ideas is only part of the need. Looking at the feelings behind the resistance is going to be the greatest challenge and obstacle. But if the pursuit of this change is done with that in mind it could go through without many of the challenges it would otherwise face.

I have reread your post and this reading the thought comes to my mind that you are so "very wise".
gc

[Grandma Carolyn]

Thanks, Carole. Your post means a lot to me and your illustration is right on point.

Let me share the incident that caused me to write th post that started this discussion. Linda and I recently visited Linda's home church. The church is in long-term decline and is nearing the point of closing. While we were there, Linda was working at the church and noticed some children in the yard of the home that is next dooor to the church. Linda walked over and invited them to Sunday School. They looked shocked and said, "No one has invited us to church before."

I wonder how many Nazarene Congregations are praying for the Lord to send them more people, when they have not invited those who live next door?

What will it take? A revival? A renewal? A reorganization? Training? of simply caring?

Will the answer come from the local church, the district, the general church or somewhere else?

I am convinced the answer must be "all of the above." The Church of the Nazarene needs to have a revival of passion for the lost that extends from the smallest Nazarene Congregations to the highest positions in our church. No part should be left out.





Amen and Amen!!!!

[John Anderson]

What we need is vision! The Fathers of our denomination had a vision. This vision gave them a mission, direction, excitement, and energy - all of which we seem to lack today! As a matter of fact I do not believe it is possible to have these things unless we have a vision. Therefore, we have moved into a maintenance mentality, and talk about renewal!

[Marsha Lynn]

What we need is vision! The Fathers of our denomination had a vision. This vision gave them a mission, direction, excitement, and energy - all of which we seem to lack today! As a matter of fact I do not believe it is possible to have these things unless we have a vision. Therefore, we have moved into a maintenance mentality, and talk about renewal!

So what steps are you taking to form the needed vision, John? Do you have a vision for the work in which you are involved? If so, how did you develop/discover that vision? What part did prayer (the topic of the thread) have in developing/discovering your vision? Are our prayers (yours and mine and other NazNetters) an important element of developing a vision at the denominational level? I ask because just a few hours ago I heard the same message you bring presented to our district NMI convention and I'm trying to figure out my role as a layperson in developing a vision for my own ministry, for my local church, and for the denomination.

By the way, welcome to NazNet! I'm glad you jumped in here.

Marsha

[John Anderson]

Actually I do have a vision for the church that I pastor. I prayed and
sought the Lord for 3 1/2 years before He gave it to me. I believe the
leadership of the church must seek God's vision and direction and lead the
church to fulfill that vision. If the leaders will lead the rest of us will
follow. Each department must have vision, yet there needs to be agenda
harmony between the general vision of the church and each department.

Without vision the people parish! If this is true then the opposite must
also be true - with vision the people flourish! Vision is part of spiritual
renewal, and without spiritual renewal there can be no revival within our
church. Vision provides excitement, energy, direction, and mission. We are
only kidding ourselves if we think we can have these things without vision.

[Paul Whitaker]

This is why we sing "Trust and Obey". Stay on your knees till you trust, but then get up and obey.

Trust and Obey was one of Earl Lee's theme songs.

[Gene Tatsch]

Actually I do have a vision for the church that I pastor. I prayed and
sought the Lord for 3 1/2 years before He gave it to me. ...

Hi John - yes welcome. FYI, I'm NOT one of the ol'timers here :basic03
But the fellowship is vital, challenging, & refreshing.

You mention a couple issues that strike me as significant:
1. 3 1/2 years :eek:
I think most church management thinks 3 1/2 minutes is a long time to wait on the vision. (yes, that's sarcasm - "leaders" have folks following - managers drive the flock):basic04
You "tarried until ..."
2. Its not your vision - so you're a steward of it, not the owner.
And I sense that in your response.

Yes, with His vision and His manifest Presence among us, we flourish.
Seems so obvious!

[Gene Tatsch]

... I certainly support the idea that we should all pray more. ....

Pondering on this thread has me uneasy, and I'm not completely sure why.
I'm suspecting that "... pray more" is somewhere at the core of it, though that may be inadequate.

"more" implies quantity. That we need to double, triple, etc. the quanitity of prayer - I suppose that means in terms of some metric like time, intensity or some other? But we have God-imposed limits (e.g., can't do more than 24 hours a day). So this doesn't look like a break-through approach.
Maybe our praying isn't "... fervent and effectual ...", or we aren't "righteous" enough? James 5:16 . Yet we don't see Jesus nor the Spirit-filled post-Pentecost disciples lacking in this.


In general, if we "do the right things right", things happen, in creation and the spiritual realm. So I'm suspecting we're not doing "the right thing".

...The biblical pattern is "God calls, servant accepts, God instructs, servant acts."
The servant learns to know the heart of God - sufficient for knowing the right way to do the right thing. And praying for rain in west Texas may (or may not) be "the right thing" to do - depends on God's situation-specific instructions to the servants - and if the servants are not fully tuned in to the Father's heart ... :basic04

And we are told to pray without ceasing 1 Thessalonians 5:17. Which is only reasonable as we work out the breath of the indwelling Holy Spirit - breathing in, breathing out ... constant fellowship with the Father.
There is the rhythm of praying & working - Brother Lawrence spoke of praying as he washed dishes. (disclosure: I'm not "there" yet, but I'm in process :))

Perhaps Steve Weber has some insights on "prayer" that we all need to hear (or hear again)
Last evening at our weekly adult Bible study I had a chance to hear my DA delegates respond concerning the presentation by Steve Weber.
Steve is returning to Northwest IN in Nov. to spend three days with us pastors. I have in front of me the description of the various topics, presentations, Scriptures used, etc. Nov. 6-8 will prove to be life-transforning for so many of us pastors here. The four main themes under which ther are 3-4 areas covered, are: 1. Learning to live life and lead from the secret place. 2. Deepening friendship and trust. 3. Becoming shepherds after God's own heart. 4. Becoming the house of the Lord in our communities.
...

I think my stopping point here is that we seem to have a cultural predisposition to "either - or", when the Father's way is "both - and" - as in "faith and works".
YES - "all of the above ... No part should be left out" - under the strategic direction of the Father
And it takes conscious effort to make the growth.

gene --

[William Hunter]

How many times have it been recommended that we run the church from a business model. From denominational functionaries we have had books on business recommended as guides for running the church. I've read a few of the books and there have found a few good ideas, but as I have listened to the teaching of Dr. Steve Weber these last days at our churhc, I am convinced that trying to run the church with such principles only deepens our spiritual coma.

What we are in desperate need for is the presence of God. That begins with having a personal heart desperate for God. Of gettng people in the church with this same hunger for God and begin to do some of the things Weber taught us, moving from being work centered (doing, to being "being" centered. There are several thing involved in this as Steve taught us. We think we are doing ok if we go more, do more, and above all, raise more money. By doing so we pastors are "good little pastors" whose character is approved by the GS. Our congregations are complimented, etc. But in it all, we are doing nothing that requires the powerfully manifested presence of the Holy Spirit. I can no longer live in the land of the spiritual coma, and thankfully about 35% on my cong. have seen the light and are willing to give themselves to being more and more desperate for God and doing what is necessary to allow God to powerfully manifest Himself in our presence. The business model of church structure and operation just is not Biblical, what we have been learning this weekend is.

[Hans Deventer]

What we are in desperate need for is the presence of God. That begins with having a personal heart desperate for God. Of getting people in the church with this same hunger for God and begin to do some of the things Weber taught us, moving from being work centered (doing, to being "being" centered).

[...]

The business model of church structure and operation just is not Biblical, what we have been learning this weekend is.

William, I think people who expect anything from whatever model for running the church will be disappointed, unless indeed we have a heart, desperate for God. I completely agree.

I also agree that "the business model of church structure and operation just is not Biblical". In fact, Phineas Bresee said that there ARE no biblical models and hence, the church was free to organise itself in ways that seemed to fit best (CotN Manual 1895).

Still, people on fire for God, will need to use some kind of organisation model, whatever that model is or comes from. I'm not so sure Spirit filled people can't use a business model as Dave described it. His main point is that it means a clear focus on what you want to reach. Which is what most churches don't have. In the world, that focus would be profit. In the church, that would reaching people for Christ, for instance.

So all in all, I think what Weber is talking about and a discussion about models is apples and oranges. We need apples AND oranges, but they are not the same.

It seems to me there are two dangers: people all on fire for God might think they need no organisation at all. And those that found the perfect organisation model might think that the model is all it takes. Both are wrong.

[Gene Tatsch]

... Still, people on fire for God, will need to use some kind of organisation model....

The model must serve the on-fire people, and be changed as necessary ... not the reverse (as is so humanly common).

[Hans Deventer]

The model must serve the on-fire people, and be changed as necessary ... not the reverse (as is so humanly common).

Absolutely.

[Billy Cox]

In the world, that focus would be profit. In the church, that would reaching people for Christ, for instance.


I have become uncomfortable with the term 'reaching people'. What does that even mean? I would answer in terms of transformation, but the person next to me in church might have an entirely different mental picture of what 'reaching people' means.


It seems to me there are two dangers: people all on fire for God might think they need no organisation at all. And those that found the perfect organisation model might think that the model is all it takes. Both are wrong.

People might try the anarchy model for a time, but if they have the mind of Christ, they will abandon any model that hinders the mission.

Even Jesus adjusted his methods. After his near-death experience in Nazareth, Jesus doesn't ever stand up in the synagogue and say, "Hey y'all, I'm the Messiah!!" :basic05

[William Hunter]

The issue is that we get our structures from human ideas, business models, etc. We don't take the risk of seeking God first and letting Him guide the sturcture. We put the wrong cart in front of the wrong hurse most of the time and just end up with endless layers of structure, doing church in such a way that it makes no difference if God shows up or not. I can no longer be a good little pastor who just quietly goes more, does more and above all else, raises more money. Somehow I believe God will move HIS resources in if we are despearte enough for Him to seek Him above all else--including the safety of human built structures. All we have ended up with a the church in a spiritual coma in Canada, the USA and in much of Europe. God has something mroe us than that but the currency of heaven is desperation for God.



William, I think people who expect anything from whatever model for running the church will be disappointed, unless indeed we have a heart, desperate for God. I completely agree.

I also agree that "the business model of church structure and operation just is not Biblical". In fact, Phineas Bresee said that there ARE no biblical models and hence, the church was free to organise itself in ways that seemed to fit best (CotN Manual 1895).

Still, people on fire for God, will need to use some kind of organisation model, whatever that model is or comes from. I'm not so sure Spirit filled people can't use a business model as Dave described it. His main point is that it means a clear focus on what you want to reach. Which is what most churches don't have. In the world, that focus would be profit. In the church, that would reaching people for Christ, for instance.

So all in all, I think what Weber is talking about and a discussion about models is apples and oranges. We need apples AND oranges, but they are not the same.

It seems to me there are two dangers: people all on fire for God might think they need no organisation at all. And those that found the perfect organisation model might think that the model is all it takes. Both are wrong.

[Mike McVey]

What does it mean to pray more? I'm foolish enough to believe that we are to pray constantly and pray without ceasing. Are we meaning to pray more as a local church? District church? Regional church? General church? As an individual?

I also don't like all the business models in church talk. I didn't know Bresee said what he did, but I agree with it. When Moses decided to follow his father-in-law Jethro's advice, we don't have any record of him asking God about it. I think we should pray together as much as possible (whatever that means) but to lead an organization, it is good to study organizational leadership. When counseling someone, you better know what you are doing.

Prayer is essential, but how do we judge the quality of prayer?

I remember after the 2001 GA, I heard two ladies talking about the votings for Johnson and Middendorf were political and rigged. Some could say there was obviously not enough prayer being prayed, but that is naive at best. The Church of the Nazarene is a slower organization than most because of the voice we give to the delegation process. I do believe that people pray from the point of the first stage of the process. And I don't think it stops there.

Now if we are talking down on our knees or prostrated to the floor, then 1. I would agree there is plenty of room to do more of it and 2. that it is foolish to label quality prayer in certain poses or positions. I believe that most the people on this forum, not to mention this thread are very prayerful. That doesn't mean we don't still disagree about stuff.

[Gene Tatsch]

What does it mean to pray more? I'm foolish enough to believe that we are to pray constantly and pray without ceasing. ...
Prayer is essential, but how do we judge the quality of prayer?
...
Mike - yes - "without ceasing", so "more" doesn't get at the Father's meaning.
Perhaps our first agenda item of prayer is "Lord, teach me to pray" - not merely how much, nor how, nor anything I can think about - totally open-ended request for me & us to have the Father give us His wisdom.
I think we really do not know how to pray as Jesus and the early church prayed.

gene --

[Gene Tatsch]

I have become uncomfortable with the term 'reaching people'. ...
Me too. Especially since that has nothing at all (well, maybe a tiny tad) with our marching orders: the Great Command and the Great Commission!
gene --

[Billy Cox]

The issue is that we get our structures from human ideas, business models, etc. We don't take the risk of seeking God first and letting Him guide the sturcture. We put the wrong cart in front of the wrong hurse most of the time and just end up with endless layers of structure, doing church in such a way that it makes no difference if God shows up or not. I can no longer be a good little pastor who just quietly goes more, does more and above all else, raises more money. Somehow I believe God will move HIS resources in if we are despearte enough for Him to seek Him above all else--including the safety of human built structures. All we have ended up with a the church in a spiritual coma in Canada, the USA and in much of Europe. God has something mroe us than that but the currency of heaven is desperation for God.

It's easy to poo-poo the structure, but I don't see many people on the church payroll pushing back from the feed trough saying, "I'm not going to offer my time/energy/resources to this godless machine anymore."

I have to say that I utterly detest the 'spiritual coma' metaphor. It is an image devoid of hope and has no rightful place within the optimism of the Wesleyan tradition.

I agree that God moves heaven and earth for those desperate for his presence, but we don't truly know what that looks like and we are far from being there.

[Gene Tatsch]

... I have to say that I utterly detest the 'spiritual coma' metaphor. It is an image devoid of hope and has no rightful place within the optimism of the Wesleyan tradition.

I agree that God moves heaven and earth for those desperate for his presence, but we don't truly know what that looks like and we are far from being there.

I don't know about "spiritual coma", but some of us do use the term "drugged stupor". Both of which bring up the notion that we need outside (i.e., God's) intervention, since we're powerless to "break the spell" (yet another phrase). And I am SO glad the Spirit is interpreting all our groanings that we can't put into words!! And therein is our only hope & optimism.

I'm re-reading "Desperate for His Presence". My hunger today is that He will unlock the door (or bridge the chasm) so we can enter the life He intends for us. The gap to too huge for our solutions.

gene --

[William Hunter]

Billy, your response is exactly what makes so many who see what God is doing in other parts of the world in prayer and the powerful manifestation of God, see America in a coma, or at least in a very deep, deep sleep.

There is a spiritual movement going on in our world and it seems the church in the USA is near the last to get it. I would suggest that before you take exception with what I said you first do some learning. Read the book, "Desperater for His Presence" by Rhonda Hughey, and find out where Steve Weber might be speaking near you and listen to the facts of what is taking place in our world.

As for the hope of our doctrine, we are no more on fire as a denomination than is any other theological group in our country. Before you speak too loudly, do a little learning first. If you do, I believe you may want to rethink some of your statements.




It's easy to poo-poo the structure, but I don't see many people on the church payroll pushing back from the feed trough saying, "I'm not going to offer my time/energy/resources to this godless machine anymore."

I have to say that I utterly detest the 'spiritual coma' metaphor. It is an image devoid of hope and has no rightful place within the optimism of the Wesleyan tradition.

I agree that God moves heaven and earth for those desperate for his presence, but we don't truly know what that looks like and we are far from being there.

[Gene Tatsch]

... find out where Steve Weber might be speaking near you ....

What's a good way to find out Steve Weber's schedule?

thanks/gene --

[Mike McVey]

Billy, your response is exactly what makes so many who see what God is doing in other parts of the world in prayer and the powerful manifestation of God, see America in a coma, or at least in a very deep, deep sleep.

There is a spiritual movement going on in our world and it seems the church in the USA is near the last to get it. I would suggest that before you take exception with what I said you first do some learning. Read the book, "Desperater for His Presence" by Rhonda Hughey, and find out where Steve Weber might be speaking near you and listen to the facts of what is taking place in our world.

As for the hope of our doctrine, we are no more on fire as a denomination than is any other theological group in our country. Before you speak too loudly, do a little learning first. If you do, I believe you may want to rethink some of your statements.

William,

Did we not have these same spiritual movements in the US over the past 250 years? Or for our denomination, the past 100 years? Is it possible the we've hit the same kind of cultural barriers that Newbigin talked about returning home to England after 30+ years as a missionary in India - that England was harder to reach because everyone had heard it before?

I know several in the boomer generation that came to Christ through Crusades and televangelists/radivangelists(?). But even that was 40+ years ago. Has there ever been a documented time that the church in any culture has sustained movement status for more than 100 years?

I mean absolutely no disrespect to the other nations, but what I hear many (not you) to be saying is that the pre-Christian countries that took us years to get into and teach the gospel to are now on fire and now we should take those principles to a post-Christian society and expect similar results. This doesn't make sense. Even a tracing of the movements in our own national history we have had to change the ways the message was to be communicated with each movement. The Great Awakening was not like the 2nd Awakening, nor like Azusa Street, nor like the Billys (Sunday and Graham) nor like the charismatic movement, nor like the church growth movement, etc.

One of the consistent statistics since the early 90's is that people in the US consider themselves spiritual at enormous rates... just not Christian. I doubt most of the countries that are exploding up for Christ would have said the same thing... maybe even now. And let us not forget that the whole Rwanda crisis is a bunch of "Christians" killing other "Christians" - but they are on fire for Christ unlike the US.

Now if you told me the UK church was growing like wildfire in every which way, I would be more interested in what is going on because we seem to be about 30 years or so behind them.

And William, I love your enthusiasm and concern. Many times have your posts ignited some kind of fire in my life to follow Christ closer. I thank you for that and look forward to reading your future posts.

[Billy Cox]

Billy, your response is exactly what makes so many who see what God is doing in other parts of the world in prayer and the powerful manifestation of God, see America in a coma, or at least in a very deep, deep sleep.

I'm not sure what you saw in my post that would lead you to believe that I am unaware of God's activity in the world. I am suggesting that the so-called 'coma' in the Western world is induced by a professional clergy that is too heavily invested in the religious status quo to have any kind of prophetic voice.


There is a spiritual movement going on in our world and it seems the church in the USA is near the last to get it. I would suggest that before you take exception with what I said you first do some learning. Read the book, "Desperater for His Presence" by Rhonda Hughey, and find out where Steve Weber might be speaking near you and listen to the facts of what is taking place in our world.

As for the hope of our doctrine, we are no more on fire as a denomination than is any other theological group in our country. Before you speak too loudly, do a little learning first. If you do, I believe you may want to rethink some of your statements.

I don't appreciate the suggestion that because I see things differently that I must therefore be ignorant.

I believe that God is still mightily at work in the West, but we are conditioned to see 'mighty' only in terms of our fading memory of old-time campmeeting services. Thus it is a supreme irony that we commonly view the contemporary ministries who are 'on fire' (Charismatics, Pentecostals, etc.) as the bastard children of the Kingdom.

If we have a problem in the West, it is that we practically deify exotic Christianity in Africa while despising the work of God down the street. We cannot love God and hate the 'Charismaniacs.' We're not in a coma, we have a heart problem.

[William Hunter]

In fulfilling His Word, Christ is doing a new thing in our world, something that the USA has not yet experienced. God is moving throught the world in ways that we have not seen here. It has nothing to do with culture, etc. I wonder why anything that seems to challenge us spiritual in that it would inticate that we are in deep need of a spiritual renewal here, is devalued because we think we are so much more advanced. I remember a statement of Christ in Revelation concerning a church that thought it was rich, etc. but was naked, poor. I see in that a description of Christianity in the USA, Canada, and Europe.



William,

Did we not have these same spiritual movements in the US over the past 250 years? Or for our denomination, the past 100 years? Is it possible the we've hit the same kind of cultural barriers that Newbigin talked about returning home to England after 30+ years as a missionary in India - that England was harder to reach because everyone had heard it before?

I know several in the boomer generation that came to Christ through Crusades and televangelists/radivangelists(?). But even that was 40+ years ago. Has there ever been a documented time that the church in any culture has sustained movement status for more than 100 years?

I mean absolutely no disrespect to the other nations, but what I hear many (not you) to be saying is that the pre-Christian countries that took us years to get into and teach the gospel to are now on fire and now we should take those principles to a post-Christian society and expect similar results. This doesn't make sense. Even a tracing of the movements in our own national history we have had to change the ways the message was to be communicated with each movement. The Great Awakening was not like the 2nd Awakening, nor like Azusa Street, nor like the Billys (Sunday and Graham) nor like the charismatic movement, nor like the church growth movement, etc.

One of the consistent statistics since the early 90's is that people in the US consider themselves spiritual at enormous rates... just not Christian. I doubt most of the countries that are exploding up for Christ would have said the same thing... maybe even now. And let us not forget that the whole Rwanda crisis is a bunch of "Christians" killing other "Christians" - but they are on fire for Christ unlike the US.

Now if you told me the UK church was growing like wildfire in every which way, I would be more interested in what is going on because we seem to be about 30 years or so behind them.

And William, I love your enthusiasm and concern. Many times have your posts ignited some kind of fire in my life to follow Christ closer. I thank you for that and look forward to reading your future posts.

[William Hunter]

Billy, I did not suggest that you are ignorant, but the fact is that we here little realize what God is doing around the world. And it has nothing to do with charamatic expressions, etc. God is doing a new thing and before you try to devalue it, learn a bit about it. None of know everything and we in the USA, Canada, and much of Europe are just in the dark concerning what God is doing. Yes, we are soundly asleep, but God is finally bringing that movement to America. What Steve Weber has to say is so important that our own Board of GS's had Steve Weber come in and spend some days teaching them about prayer and what is happening in the world in what God is doing in prayer.

I am abosolutely correct when I say the vast majority of Nazarenes (let's stay with our own spiritual home if you will) know nothing of "The Call" movement going on in our nation. In fact, on the 16th of this month multiplied thousands of teens and twenty-somethings will be gathering in Washington DS to pray and fast over our govt. They are tired of a nation killing more than 50 million unborn human beings, the moral decline, etc. They see the only way to change that is for an intervention from God. They are right. We have not had revivals and spiritual movements here like what is going on around the world, and is just now beginning to finally come to our country.

Before we try to devalue what God is doing because we think God can only work in underdeveloped countries, maybe we need to take a good look at what God is doing instead of being so judgmental of it while we have little insight into what He is doing.

My own cong. has caught a climpse of it and we are beginning to position ourselves so that God can do what He is blocked from doing in the deeply sleeping church in America, etc. Billy, the church in the USA, Canada and much of Europe is ignorant of God's movements in the world these days. We seem to think we know how God will move and expect Him to get inside our little boxes of limited understanding of Him. He does not fit. I am so very thankful for His movement in Steve Weber and for bringing this book I mentioned into my life, my DS's life, and the life of my local church. We are committed to more than our inflated views of our own insights.




I'm not sure what you saw in my post that would lead you to believe that I am unaware of God's activity in the world. I am suggesting that the so-called 'coma' in the Western world is induced by a professional clergy that is too heavily invested in the religious status quo to have any kind of prophetic voice.



I don't appreciate the suggestion that because I see things differently that I must therefore be ignorant.

I believe that God is still mightily at work in the West, but we are conditioned to see 'mighty' only in terms of our fading memory of old-time campmeeting services. Thus it is a supreme irony that we commonly view the contemporary ministries who are 'on fire' (Charismatics, Pentecostals, etc.) as the bastard children of the Kingdom.

If we have a problem in the West, it is that we practically deify exotic Christianity in Africa while despising the work of God down the street. We cannot love God and hate the 'Charismaniacs.' We're not in a coma, we have a heart problem.

[David Pettigrew]

Ok, so God is moving around the world. What does that look like? I hear continually about revival in China and Africa. What is happening as a result of these revivals? More souls bound for Heaven?


Revival is always accompanied by social reform. In the early church, it took the form of providing burial for those who died in poverty, rather than tossing them on the garbage heap, as well as a voice at the table for slaves and women. In our country, it took the form of abolition, prohibition, women's suffrage, child labor laws, etc. The Wesley revival in England created the middle class.

What social reform is happening in China and Africa as a result of revival? Is there any reduction in AIDS cases, for instance? How about the child sex slave industry - any change there? Human dignity and rights advances? Less government corruption?

If the only marks of world wide revival is a head count, I don't want it here. We've got enough of that already.

[William Hunter]

This discussion is getting rather useless with some. I hear these statements you and Billy are making, and while in some ways I might agree, I also know you are talking from a point of judging without having the proper information. Read the book "Desperate For His Presence." I'll ask Steve about his schedule in the weeks ahead. Maybe some of you can hear him. We must get past these usual responses that are typical of faith based more on the intellectual as we have it here in the west. What I hear is that we have experienced everything there is to know and experience of God and there is nothing new He can do. God is on the move around the world, too bad we so often just give glib and shallow responses without taking the time to find out the truth of what Rhonda Hughey and Steve weber and others are seeing and around our world. Some have gotten spiritually in the place where God can lead them---it is a place of deep persperate hunger for Him.
That is not the way of the ave. Christian and cong. We are too dependent on our programs, structures, etc. , just like the bride in the Song of Solomon who found it inconvenient to let her bridegroom in---and then found he was gone and did not answer.



Ok, so God is moving around the world. What does that look like? I hear continually about revival in China and Africa. What is happening as a result of these revivals? More souls bound for Heaven?


Revival is always accompanied by social reform. In the early church, it took the form of providing burial for those who died in poverty, rather than tossing them on the garbage heap, as well as a voice at the table for slaves and women. In our country, it took the form of abolition, prohibition, women's suffrage, child labor laws, etc. The Wesley revival in England created the middle class.

What social reform is happening in China and Africa as a result of revival? Is there any reduction in AIDS cases, for instance? How about the child sex slave industry - any change there? Human dignity and rights advances? Less government corruption?

If the only marks of world wide revival is a head count, I don't want it here. We've got enough of that already.

[David Pettigrew]

This discussion is getting rather useless with some. I hear these statements you and Billy are making, and while in some ways I might agree, I also know you are talking from a point of judging without having the proper information. Read the book "Desperate For His Presence." I'll ask Steve about his schedule in the weeks ahead. Maybe some of you can hear him. We must get past these usual responses that are typical of faith based more on the intellectual as we have it here in the west. What I hear is that we have experienced everything there is to know and experience of God and there is nothing new He can do. God is on the move around the world, too bad we so often just give glib and shallow responses without taking the time to find out the truth of what Rhonda Hughey and Steve weber and others are seeing and around our world. Some have gotten spiritually in the place where God can lead them---it is a place of deep persperate hunger for Him.
That is not the way of the ave. Christian and cong. We are too dependent on our programs, structures, etc. , just like the bride in the Song of Solomon who found it inconvenient to let her bridegroom in---and then found he was gone and did not answer.

I wrote some more questions based on your response, but the truth is I agree with you. Once someone spiritualizes the discussion, it becomes useless.

[Billy Cox]

Billy, I did not suggest that you are ignorant, but the fact is that we here little realize what God is doing around the world.


With all due respect that sounds alot like an accusation of ignorance to me.



Before we try to devalue what God is doing because we think God can only work in underdeveloped countries, maybe we need to take a good look at what God is doing instead of being so judgmental of it while we have little insight into what He is doing.


I don't recall saying anything that devalued things happening in Africa or elsewhere. I am just as aware of those happenings as you are, I just refuse to interpret those happenings as a condemnation of Western Christianity. I think that is perhaps the only genuine disagreement that I have with what you said.

[William Hunter]

I cannot help it if you hear what is not there. That is your problem.

Also, your response without doing a search, just responding out of your personal perception without questioning whether or not there may be something we are not aware of, just proves my point that we in the west are not interested in what God is doing when He does something new, and refuse to be open minded enough to do the work of searching and researching before we devalue something we do not understand or have insight into.



With all due respect that sounds alot like an accusation of ignorance to me.




I don't recall saying anything that devalued things happening in Africa or elsewhere. I am just as aware of those happenings as you are, I just refuse to interpret those happenings as a condemnation of Western Christianity. I think that is perhaps the only genuine disagreement that I have with what you said.

[William Hunter]

As I said, I am rethinking involvement in this discussion. It seems that in the west we have some out of balance drivenness to intellectualize Christ. When we do that we leave the Gospel without legs to stand on. we get to higher critisim too easily when we do, and all that seems to do is try to explain away the Gospel and take Christ from being an infinate Being to being less that finite. How can anything in all creation full comprehend the Creater!?! Anyway, I may share insights into prayer in another format but not here. We seem to quickly to want to reduce prayer and Christ to busines terms, finiteness, etc., instead of considering that maybe we know little about prayer and what God is doing in much of the world, and in a few places He is finally breaking through here---but then, if He does He has to do it in ways we fully understand and that He must act according to our limited understanding of Him.

[Mike McVey]

As I said, I am rethinking involvement in this discussion. It seems that in the west we have some out of balance drivenness to intellectualize Christ. When we do that we leave the Gospel without legs to stand on. we get to higher critisim too easily when we do, and all that seems to do is try to explain away the Gospel and take Christ from being an infinate Being to being less that finite. How can anything in all creation full comprehend the Creater!?! Anyway, I may share insights into prayer in another format but not here. We seem to quickly to want to reduce prayer and Christ to busines terms, finiteness, etc., instead of considering that maybe we know little about prayer and what God is doing in much of the world, and in a few places He is finally breaking through here---but then, if He does He has to do it in ways we fully understand and that He must act according to our limited understanding of Him.

William, I know this is probably only going to make you more and more uninvolved, but I haven't seen anyone intellectualize Christ or reduce God to business terms on this thread. Because we do not agree with you does not mean our understanding of Him is any more limited than yours. In fact, my reason for engaging in this conversation is that I'm trying to understand how you are so pessimistic of Western Christianity. I find great hope in Christ right here, right now. I don't need to look overseas to see God's majesty. I still do, though. God is doing amazing things in Scottdale, PA despite the bumblings of their pastor (me). People's lives are being changed. You blasted Billy because he said and I quote, "I just refuse to interpret those happenings as a condemnation of Western Christianity. I think that is perhaps the only genuine disagreement that I have with what you said." Your response was that he was talking purely out of perception and not out of research and then you say people are intellectualizing God. I think God is alive and active throughout all of His creation, not just overseas.

I expect you to blow this off, but seriously, Billy might have more hope in Christ for the US than you are giving him credit for.

[William Hunter]

Mike, the western church is in decline, or at best flatlined. We focus on structure, programs, chain of command, self-promotion, etc. All of which can be done without the smallest awareness of the Holy Spirit being in our midst.

I do not see a desperate hunger for God in the western church, though there are some points of light beginning to shine. Mike, most of what the church does can be done without God. The result is that there are few people being born-again, sanctified, etc. Our western church is more influenced by the world than we are influencing the world. There are just too many proofs of this to mention. All we have to do is look around.

I, too, have great hope for the western church because of the movement of God around our world, and just having recently arrived in a few places in the USA. I wonder why this taking of exception with what I am suggesting here when those who are taking the exception have not taken the time and effort to read the book I mentioned, or listen to Steve Weber, etc. I'm not blowing you who disaggree off, but I pray for you because I see the same blindness that has taken the western church, a church built on human decisons, etc., rather than on the leadership of God. I wonder how we would restructure if we first took the time to seek Him and did not move until we had clear direction of His will, rather than focusing on good PR to draw a crowd, and then having so few people being transformed.




William, I know this is probably only going to make you more and more uninvolved, but I haven't seen anyone intellectualize Christ or reduce God to business terms on this thread. Because we do not agree with you does not mean our understanding of Him is any more limited than yours. In fact, my reason for engaging in this conversation is that I'm trying to understand how you are so pessimistic of Western Christianity. I find great hope in Christ right here, right now. I don't need to look overseas to see God's majesty. I still do, though. God is doing amazing things in Scottdale, PA despite the bumblings of their pastor (me). People's lives are being changed. You blasted Billy because he said and I quote, "I just refuse to interpret those happenings as a condemnation of Western Christianity. I think that is perhaps the only genuine disagreement that I have with what you said." Your response was that he was talking purely out of perception and not out of research and then you say people are intellectualizing God. I think God is alive and active throughout all of His creation, not just overseas.

I expect you to blow this off, but seriously, Billy might have more hope in Christ for the US than you are giving him credit for.

[Kevin Rector]

William, I want this post to be an encouragement to you, not a discouragement - so please read it in that light, it is not a criticism of you but a word of love from your brother. So please see my heart and take it as intended, even if my words fail to convey what I truly want to say.

Mike, the western church is in decline, or at best flatlined. We focus on structure, programs, chain of command, self-promotion, etc. All of which can be done without the smallest awareness of the Holy Spirit being in our midst.

Perhaps the decline of the Western church (which we all will acknowledge I think) has as much to do (or more) with the fact that the Western world is rocky soil, the work is hard, and people's hearts are hard as it does with the fact that the Western church is trying to work apart from the Holy Spirit.

I am sure that there are plenty of churches that are trying to accomplish things by the strength of their own arm rather than the strong right arm of God, but I am also sure that there are plenty of churches, pastors, and lay people who are crying out to God for God to move in their midst.

I do not see a desperate hunger for God in the western church, though there are some points of light beginning to shine.

But please remember that you are not in "the western church" you are in your church. You have made assumptions about why the Western church is failing when there may be other reasons (see above). I have had people come into my church, get saved, then decide that the Christian walk demanded too much of them and they wandered off, that does not mean that I/we am not praying enough. I have had other people who are growing dynamically in the grace of God and holiness, that does not mean that I/we pray enough.

Yes, even Christ was not able to win all (in fact most people stopped following when they learned how narrow the road was), he preached to thousands but there less than 200 in the upper room. This was not a deficiency on his part or of his spiritual life.

Every morning I pray to God that he will work through my weakness. Every morning I pray that God will move in our community. Every morning I pray that God will bless and grow all of the Christian churches in my community. My friend, I am very clearly aware of my need for God, and I am desperate for his presence. Yet, I refuse to beat myself up or consider myself a failure because I have not seen the same sort of result as someone else - regardless of where they live.

I love your zeal for God and for the Kingdom. Continue to challenge us to grow closer to God. But please know that your words designed to encourage us, sometimes end up discouraging us because what we hear is not necessarily what you are intending to communicate. What I have tended to hear in your posts is that if we would just be more spiritual we'd be more successful (by default then if we are not successful we are not spiritual enough) - and that is a very discouraging thing to hear when I am doing all I can to seek the face of God.

[Gene Tatsch]

... Perhaps the decline of the Western church (which we all will acknowledge I think) has as much to do (or more) with the fact that the Western world is rocky soil, the work is hard, and people's hearts are hard as it does with the fact that the Western church is trying to work apart from the Holy Spirit.
....I am very clearly aware of my need for God, and I am desperate for his presence. Yet, I refuse to beat myself up or consider myself a failure because I have not seen the same sort of result as someone else - regardless of where they live.
...

a) the decline of the U.S. church seems obvious - Howie Shute's comments, comparison of Nazarene statistics in the U.S. vs worldwide, personal observations. Hence, its not a local/personal battle - its a wide-spread/spiritual war. You mention "rocky soil" - a question would be: why/how the the soil change from not-rocky to rocky? Personally, I believe its an issue that inaccessible from this sphere - that there's something in the spiritual realm that is beyond our knowing (e.g., a Job-like situation, collective less-than-full obedience in U.S. church members). Nevertheless, the issue is that the U.S. church seems in a stupor beyond our remedy - at least in terms of the past 50 years in my observation.

b) an observable change can only occur as there's the spiritual change as its precursor. Hence, the essential focus, methinks, is to first, follow & satisfy our growing desperation for His presence ... anticipating that other changes will naturally follow.

c) yes, Jesus Himself did not solve all the problems in His society.
As Charles Hummel points out: http://www.navpress.com/EPubs/PrinterFriendly/1/1.60.2.html - His mission was (as is ours) to constantly listen to the Father and do His bidding in His moment-by-moment life.
Biblically, it seems that our mission, too, is solely to constantly listen to the Father and do His bidding moment-by-moment.
Not to (necessarily) "win" anyone, let alone all!

Personally, I suspect that only as we focus well on implementing the Great Command and Great Commission in ourselves (which I perceive is William's heart) and in our gatherings, will our desperation (and His heart) be satisfied. And I suspect that the church's fascination with initiatives of "soul-winning", "outreach" (and other off-mission focus) is a major contributing cause our situation.

btw, on your comment "... and that is a very discouraging thing to hear when I am doing all I can to seek the face of God." - for myself, I suspect the deepening discouragement is a gift from Him to increase my desperation for His Presence, since whatever I am doing and able to do really is inadequate - I really need His intervention in my/our world! Maybe the discouragement is in-transit to His feast for us??
gene --

[Billy Cox]

Perhaps the decline of the Western church (which we all will acknowledge I think) has as much to do (or more) with the fact that the Western world is rocky soil, the work is hard, and people's hearts are hard as it does with the fact that the Western church is trying to work apart from the Holy Spirit.


Since we're talking about soils, It seems that the more apt soil analogy to describe the West is the road/path. If one over-farms land it becomes unproductive. If there are unchurched people in the USA, it's not for a lack of choices. There is an obscene number of churches in the USA, all busily doing rougly the same thing week in and week out, chugging along as if they are the only church in their community, most being desperately small and thus spending nearly all of their energy on meeting their overhead costs.

[David Pettigrew]

Here is an example of revival in Africa. (http://www.cor.org/worship-sermons/sermons/show/sermons/Journey-Into-Africa-Part-1/)

In an effort to improve my craft, I've committed to watching some of our nation's top preachers each week. Adam Hamilton, of Church of the Resurrection, is one I'm following. His church sponsors a Zambian village. This sermon is a report from their most recent trip. The vid is about 40 minutes, but you don't have to watch the whole thing to get the gist. My favorite part of the message is at about 30:00 to 31:14.

I would call this true revival. It is a truly global revival, for it brings the West and East together, resulting in both becoming more the Community of God.

[Billy Cox]

In an effort to improve my craft, I've committed to watching some of our nation's top preachers each week. Adam Hamilton, of Church of the Resurrection, is one I'm following.

I live close enough to Church of the Resurrection to attend, but I have never visited. My loss, I guess.

[William Hunter]

In the Horn of Africa and other places on that continent, there is a movement of God not seen in this country yet, though god is beginning to break through in a few places. When they call for prayer mtg. concerning the global day of prayer, or for a city, it is common to see 70,000 to 80,000 people fill stadiums for three days of prayer and fasting, etc. That is something the western church knows little about, though God is beginning a move that will see us experience that.

What you heard was the result of huge amounts of desperation and hunger for God in prayer by thousands. Often we become taken with results and do not get under the surface as to why god moved. In our country we can do amazing things because of having enough money to put on high-powered progams, but what you talked about was victory won on knees.



Here is an example of revival in Africa. (http://www.cor.org/worship-sermons/sermons/show/sermons/Journey-Into-Africa-Part-1/)

In an effort to improve my craft, I've committed to watching some of our nation's top preachers each week. Adam Hamilton, of Church of the Resurrection, is one I'm following. His church sponsors a Zambian village. This sermon is a report from their most recent trip. The vid is about 40 minutes, but you don't have to watch the whole thing to get the gist. My favorite part of the message is at about 30:00 to 31:14.

I would call this true revival. It is a truly global revival, for it brings the West and East together, resulting in both becoming more the Community of God.