Another Nazarene Pastor weighs in

[Dave McClung]

I received another response from a Nazarene pastor today. I am not at liberty to reveal is identity. I wonder how many others feel like he does?

Here is a part of his email,

"The one G.S. idea, I'm not - maybe because it represents a change, but
your friends comment... "I can follow one, but not six" doesn't speak to
me. The truth is that if the Naz. H.Q. fell into a hole I think most of
the local churches would hardly notice the loss. Maybe I don't care if
there is one G.S., or a dozen - they really don't have that kind of
impact on my ministry."

[Ryan Scott]

I'd say that's probably true, but I'd also say the General denomination is more likely to have an impact with one GS than with six. The problem is determining whether or not it would be a positive impact.

[Eric Frey]

It is interesting to watch this thread/idea on Naznet as we simultaneously watch the Apostolic Journey of Pope Benedict to America... Man, that guy is brilliant, articulate, historically grounded and visionary. Do we have any like him in leadership?

[Ken Pell]

It is interesting to watch this thread/idea on Naznet as we simultaneously watch the Apostolic Journey of Pope Benedict to America... Man, that guy is brilliant, articulate, historically grounded and visionary. Do we have any like him in leadership?

Sometimes you guys make it sound like the CotN is lame and sterile. Nothing could be further from the truth. If you were in another faith tradition you might look at the CotN through different eyes. If I really felt the way some of you guys do I would get out and quick. I mean that literally ... in fact I did, in 1991 I left another denomination to come to the CotN. It's funny though ... some (maybe all) of the traditions that are referred to as models are less than stellar themselves. -- Please note: This is not directed specifically at Eric (maybe not even Eric at all) but is an observation regarding the tone of many threads here.

To the question at hand ... Of course we have people who are brilliant, articulate, historically grounded and visionary! Many many of them! Every faith tradition does. Never forget the pope has many advisors and councils to help him set his vision and agenda. The College of Cardinals alone is a strong influence.

[Dennis M. Scott]

Ken,

Thanks for your reminder. Sometimes when one is open to improvement comments can get a little critical. Then when internet anonymity is thrown in people can be downright nasty. Since there is the possibility of the clinically depressed harboring here, one has to be selective in interpretation. There are even some regulars here who are battered and bruised would-be leaders.

We'll not improve without recognizing and optimizing opportunities. Neither will we improve by mere negativity and criticism. Any organization has fault finders. True leaders operate beyond that. And you are right: we have been empowered to do better.

[Eric Frey]

I am not trying to put down anyone. Please don't hear that. It seems to me, that in our denomination, those who have the gifts/attributes that make the Pope who he is, and the leader, authority, voice that he is get moved out of church leadership and into other areas of ministry. There are of course exceptions.

In the vein of the current debate about a single leader vs multiple leaders, I only thought it might be helpful to look at what makes this leader stand out. I think this is an excellent oportunity to look at a one leader model and to see what the benefits of a single-visionary leader might look like. Again, please don't hear this as complaining or being negative, just trying to connect current events with current Naznet discussion.

[Steven Martinez]

It is interesting to watch this thread/idea on Naznet as we simultaneously watch the Apostolic Journey of Pope Benedict to America... Man, that guy is brilliant, articulate, historically grounded and visionary. Do we have any like him in leadership?

It is amazing that the last two Popes seem to share a positive view from Americans, especially with Evangelicals. I remember a conversation I had with 2 Catholic teachers about John Paul II. I was sharing how I thought he was making a huge, positive impact on the world through some of his decision and teachings. They on the other hand did not see what I saw and instead saw an abusive dictator who was caught up in maintainig midieval standards by banning freedom of speach and upholding mosoginistic standards. There are many in the Catholic tradition who see Benedict in a similar fashion. We have a glorious position in that we can evaluate the Pope for only the positives because he is not our denominational leader. We do not have to look at any of the negatives. For example, I love Pope Benedicts views of the Creation but when it comes to celibate clergy and the resitance to birth control we would have an interesting debate.

[Richard Call]

Brilliant human leaders make a magnificent impression but do they know the way of holiness; the entirely sanctified life? The COTN needs to keep her original focus and not look the quantity of human leadership rather to the true godly spiritual quality of all its leaders from the local churches to the district to the GC. See the manual section #38

[Mike Schutz]

It is amazing that the last two Popes seem to share a positive view from Americans, especially with Evangelicals. I remember a conversation I had with 2 Catholic teachers about John Paul II. I was sharing how I thought he was making a huge, positive impact on the world through some of his decision and teachings. They on the other hand did not see what I saw and instead saw an abusive dictator who was caught up in maintainig midieval standards by banning freedom of speach and upholding mosoginistic standards. There are many in the Catholic tradition who see Benedict in a similar fashion.

Obviously, there are several factors for this. IMHO, a few are:
1. Evangelicals are always a bit surprised to find a spiritual connection to Catholicism, similar to American affinity to Gorbachev.
2. Evangelicals are looking for leaders who are calling the faithful back to traditional moral values. However, many within the Roman Catholic Church are looking for a more progressive leader, to address what they perceive to be gender bias and a failure to adapt to cultural and societal realities. Last year I spent several days at a Benedictine monastery. Many of the conversations initiated by the Sisters concerned their hope for greater opportunities for them to minister, including the ability for females to celebrate the Mass. They viewed the current Pope, like his predecessor, as a hindrance to such a progressive movement.

[Eric Frey]

I wonder if we can look at leadership qualities apart from the decisions made. We all understand the diffence between how we view things like a male priesthood and an open priesthood, birth control, celibate clergy, etc. I guess I was looking more at how one comes to, supports, and articulates the vision/tradition. That vision/tradition will vary greatly from one faith expression to the next, but can the same leadership qualities make one a good leader in either, or a bad leader in either?

As far as "brilliant human leaders making magnificent impressions, but do they know the way of holiness?" I find this to be a bit of a surprizing inferred allegation. Secondly, I don't think it is either/or. One who cannot make a good impression would not be a good leader in my opinion. For instance, I wonder what Pope Benedict thought about GW Bush's comment "Your Holiness, that was an awesone speech." Hardly a diginified response to a Papal address. Do you think that reflects on the person and consequently his ability to lead. I think it does.

Just like one cannot rely solely on brilliant leadership, neither can one rely on holiness or entire sanctification. There are plenty of holy and sanctified saints that would not make good leaders (I am one - who would not be a good leader in that vein!). I would contend that leadership needs to be both holy and able "to make a magnificent impression" ie convey and communicate effectively the substance of their holiness to whomever they encounter.

[Billy Cox]

It is interesting to watch this thread/idea on Naznet as we simultaneously watch the Apostolic Journey of Pope Benedict to America... Man, that guy is brilliant, articulate, historically grounded and visionary. Do we have any like him in leadership?

Heh...I thought about the one GS thing when I was listening to coverage of the Pope's visit on NPR today.

[Anne and Dwayne Hood]

Our GS's mean a lot to me, and I am not ready for a "Pope like"
figure.
We need to have six GS's that are retiring at different times, with new blood coming in, but not like some on Naznet that would totally tear the system down, and rebuild it, if they could--like a child that loves to take something apart, to see how it works, and have important pieces left over when they try to put it back together.

[Hans Deventer]

Our GS's mean a lot to me, and I am not ready for a "Pope like"
figure.
We need to have six GS's that are retiring at different times, with new blood coming in, but not like some on Naznet that would totally tear the system down, and rebuild it, if they could--like a child that loves to take something apart, to see how it works, and have important pieces left over when they try to put it back together.

I don't think that comparison does justice to anyone here. Also, read http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php?t=19525 to see what is meant by a "pope". Not quite what the Roman Catholics made of it.

[Donna Adams]

I wonder what would happen to our great church IF our leaders got the world press attention and coverage that the Pope gets? What would that do for our denomination? Would it hurt or help?
Eric, what would you have said to the Pope after his speech? I am sick and tired of people picking on our president, no matter what his name is or what his party affliation is. It's petty!

[Eric Frey]

I think I would have tried to be a little more respectful. It would have probably been a word of thanks for a needed reminder.

BTW, are you guys hosting the April get together?

[Donna Adams]

No one asked us to host...!

[Ryan Scott]

I think I would have tried to be a little more respectful.


See this is what bothers me. Why is that not respectful? Was he sincere? I believe so. It seems like we're buying into the wrong kind of definition of respect if we exclude people who don't have the gift of "polite conversation."

Hey, I have as many problems with the current President of the United States as anyone does. Does it make me cringe to hear him speak the way he does at times? Sure, but not because I doubt his intelligence or sincerity or respect, simply because there are a lot of people out there who will judge him on his manner of speech.

It might not be the kind of response the Pope is used to getting from world leaders, but I imagine its the kind of response he gets from average ordinary people he meets around the world. It doesn't lend itself to any less respect.

I don't mean to pick on you, Eric, this sort of things bothers me as it arises in the Church all over the place. I don't dress up for worship services and I'll be preaching in "casual" clothes as a pastor. There are a number of reasons I'm committed to that as a point of conscience, but one of them is to give a visual representation that we, as Christians, don't make a habit of judging people by first impressions or outward appearances.



PS - I can't believe I just defended the President. The apocalypse may soon be upon us.

[Eric Frey]

Thanks Ryan, no offense taken. I was not trying to be critical of GWB. In the context of this thread I was only pointing out how impressions do matter in the world's eye and the importance of leaders being able make an appropriate impression in any circumstance. I think this thread has long left the topic at hand. Thanks for the conversation.

[Bob Evans]

After pastoring in the Nazarene church for 18 years and taking the good and band from HQ I spent the next 5 years raising money in approximately 600 churches in the Grand Rapids area. I did so to develop support for my mission. I also observed churches from all sizes, structures, denominations, as well as independent churches. And I reached the conclusion that warts and all I am really happy to be a Nazarene. If for no other reason were stronger as a group than we are as individuals. No one gets kicked out for not using everything from HQ. But in order to be a good steward of all that is out there for a church to use in its ministry you at least have to give it a hearing.

I also appreciate the structure of government. It may be tweeking but I have set in the office of hundreds of independent church pastors that really could have used a ds help to intervene in a church conflict. So IMHO our e mail writing frind needs to not throw out the baby with the bathwater.





QUOTE=Dave McClung;187172]I received another response from a Nazarene pastor today. I am not at liberty to reveal is identity. I wonder how many others feel like he does?

Here is a part of his email,

"The one G.S. idea, I'm not - maybe because it represents a change, but
your friends comment... "I can follow one, but not six" doesn't speak to
me. The truth is that if the Naz. H.Q. fell into a hole I think most of
the local churches would hardly notice the loss. Maybe I don't care if
there is one G.S., or a dozen - they really don't have that kind of
impact on my ministry."

[/QUOTE]

[Ron Davis]

Getting more local is the way to go and zone leadership and mentorships would be an improvement.

I agree that improvements can be made in the local church by utilizing improved zone leadership and mentoring. But how would you propose executing a global vision by going more local.

[Ron Davis]

I agree fully with everything you have said here. Your vision for the local church is exactly right. But a local congregation is limited in its ability to send missionaries, provide for compassionate ministries and disaster relief. The local church is also limited in its ability to promote doctrinal unity among all the churches that call themselves Nazarene. Those things require global leadership.

[David Pettigrew]

Another Nazarene pastor weighs in...this line strikes me as hilarious for some reason.

Sounds like some new reality show, where the pastor that loses the most weights gets funding for the new church gym.