R-e-s-p-e-c-t

[Charles W Christian]

What does it mean to you in regard to church life and worship?

The hat thread got me thinking about this a bit.

My church has coffee in the foyer/lobby area every morning. It's not uncommon for people to bring in tea/coffee to the sanctuary during worship time. My wife hates that (she was raised in a Lutheran setting), and I'm not a huge fan of it, either (as you know, I was raised in the South land :q)). However, we don't really raise a protest or anything, since this is Seattle aftere all, this church has been OK with this for years, etc. We feel that it is a minor issue, and so we let it go.

We still try to teach and model some modicum of respect from folks during the worship time, yet we are still "informal" in many ways (dress for one), and we have some freedom in worship, although I utilize some formal elements (Lord's Prayer, Creeds, public reading of Scripture, etc.) in the worship service itself. We try and find a balance between "freedom" in worship and some degree of respect for where we are and what we're doing.

I have friends who pastor churches that have big signs on the door about no food or drink beyond this point, and about being quiet upon entering, etc., etc. There are days when I think that's a great idea, and other days when I don't.

Has our culture lost some of the reverence it once had? If so, is that OK, or should we as leaders be pro-active in bringing some of it back (without killing the move of the Spirit, of course). Are we not teaching this enough to a world that is so accustomed to "self-service" and self-aggrandizement? Is this a discipleship issue we're missing, or are we finally "waking up" to the way it should be?

Thoughts?

Thanks,

Charles

[Hans Deventer]

Has our culture lost some of the reverence it once had?

Yes.

If so, is that OK, or should we as leaders be pro-active in bringing some of it back (without killing the move of the Spirit, of course). Are we not teaching this enough to a world that is so accustomed to "self-service" and self-aggrandizement? Is this a discipleship issue we're missing, or are we finally "waking up" to the way it should be?

I do believe we need to teach the concept of God's holiness. In general, we seem the have lost it. Abraham Herschel called the experience of awe the root of all faith. Not in order to scare people, but in order to convey something of who He is. The old cathedrals had that purpose. You entered into a huge building that made you feel small compared to God. Like hiking in the mountains, that can give the same experience. I really think we need those moments where man isn't the measure of all things.

"What a friend we have in Jesus" is a great song, but He isn't my "buddy".

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

He is truly awesome in the original meaning of the word.

[Crystal Lutton]

I think for me it depends on what the reverence and respect are for. I find that a lot of churches seem to expect reverence and respect for the building, the carpets, the pews . . that, imo, can become idolatry. If we are talking about reverence and respect for God's Word, for God himself, that I believe is achievable in even a casual setting.

[Barb Bouldrey]

I have been raised with the concept that the worship service is a sacred, hallowed haven from the world where I can leave the world outside and enter into God's presence to worship Him. I LIKE the idea of leaving the world for one hour and concentrating on HIM, not the world.

And before people begin jumping on that concept, let me explain that I do not advocate ignoring the world or the lost or ignoring bringing the cares of the world as part of my worship. Worship is for the lost and the world and they are invited into worship, too.

I just like , for my own worship, to enter the sanctuary and make it sacred to me. That is hard for ME to do carrying a coke or cup of coffee.

But if others would do that, that is between them and God.

When I arrive on Sunday morning, I start the coffe in two classrooms. I carry my cup of coffee into the sanctuary for praise team practice. But when it comes to worship time I cannot do that. John cannot take coffee into the sanctuary at any time.

I think it involves the definition of sanctuary...and how we were raised to treat the sanctuary.

In our churches that have one room that is used for sanctuary, fellowship, weddings and gym, the purpose of the room changes according to its use.

My attitude toward worship and the sanctuary is more out of reverence than respect. It is hard for me to be in an attitude of reverence while drinking a Coke or coffee. I cannot give God my full attention while also making sure I do not spill my drink.

Worship is a very SERIOUS thing to me. Drinking and eating while trying to worship makes it more casual than sacred TO ME.

Are we so addicted to caffiene and drinking something that we cannot do without it for one hour? And those that HAVE to have their bottle of water to sip at all times are just giving in to a fad of the day.

I guess our people get their caffiene fix during Sunday School.

When I want to spend some serious time with God AT HOME I get alone with Him in my living room and I do not have something to drink with me.

It is hard to humble myself before God with a 32 oz Slurpee in my hand. LOL

Respect or reverence or humbling myself before God.....is a personal thing.

Okay...now I prepare to be jumped.

LOL

Barb

[Crystal Lutton]

Barb, I have no intention of jumping you *hugs*

I do want to comment on one thing. You said

Are we so addicted to caffiene and drinking something that we cannot do without it for one hour? And those that HAVE to have their bottle of water to sip at all times are just giving in to a fad of the day. I actually have a medical condition that I am receiving treatment for but even with the treatment I do have to have water with me at all times. I dehydrate very easily and don't store water properly so even though I drink large amounts of water and one might think that the drink I had right before entering the worship service "should" last me, it doesn't. And most times I have to leave at least once for the restroom. I can only assure you I don't carry and drink bottled water to give into a fad of the day. I'm thrilled that with the treatment I receive I may only go through one 1.5 liter bottle of water during our worship service. That's a lot better than it used to be.

[Cindi Hammons]

Barb, I do agree with you in this one. I remember one time walking into the St. Louis Cathedral and being awed! I felt the same way when entering St. Patrick's Cathedral in NYC. It was very awe inspiring. I think that the protestant church has done a disservice to us all in un-Catholicizing our buildings. HOWEVER, I worship in a sanctuary/gym where I am awed by God every service. So, I stand firmly on the fence.:) I agree that coffee/refreshments can be left out of my worship experience.

[Scott Hilton]

Barb,

I actually agree with a lot of what you say on this one. I thought about taking a coffee into worship one day(because others do) and just couldn't. I knew I was going to have to place that cup on the floor at some point and the possibility of knocking the cup over in the Sanctuary during service, freaked me out. But then, like Cindi we do other things in the Sanctuary and I have felt fine drinking something in there during that. Why? Not sure. I am pretty sure God was there both times, but maybe it has to do with why I was there? One for service work, when I ate and the other for worship, when I got freaked out.

I have been raised with the concept that the worship service is a sacred, hallowed haven from the world where I can leave the world outside and enter into God's presence to worship Him. I LIKE the idea of leaving the world for one hour and concentrating on HIM, not the world.
Where we most likely differ is the definition of bringing the "world" into worship. Just tying in the hat topic a little, things like customs on appearance, clothes, shoes, ties, hats etc. are mostly based upon what the world outside of church thinks is proper. I don't think the church set the rules for where to wear hats and ties, I think the world is the strongest influencer on that. This is where I think I draw a distinction from you, I try to leave those views out along with the drinks and food during worship.

blessings

[Anne and Dwayne Hood]

Dwayne was in a SS class once, as an invited guest speaker, where the people smoked during SS.

[Jim Franklin]

AWESOME has been an overused and overworked word for 20 years or so but when it comes to entering into the Holy Place called a Sanctuary I believe SOME AWE is in order. Without it can we really say that we worship an Almighty God. Sacredness is an attitude of praising our God for His Holiness.

[Jon Twitchell]

As much as "awe," I hope that my congregation arrives with some level of excitement and expectancy... This is very hard to cultivate, but as a pastor, I want to foster an environment where we learn to expect God to move in our midst, and we can't wait to get into church.

In that regard, I would rather people bring their coffee into worship then to linger outside in the coffee room until the last possible minute before coming into the sanctuary.

Coffee or no coffee... what I would most like to see is a congregation gathered at 10:44, because they can't wait to get started! :)

[Ken Pell]

AWESOME has been an overused and overworked word for 20 years or so but when it comes to entering into the Holy Place called a Sanctuary I believe SOME AWE is in order. Without it can we really say that we worship an Almighty God. Sacredness is an attitude of praising our God for His Holiness.

I completely agree. COMPLETELY.

Does a bottle of water or a cup of coffee prevent this from happening?

[Ken Pell]

What does it mean to you in regard to church life and worship?

The hat thread got me thinking about this a bit.

My church has coffee in the foyer/lobby area every morning. It's not uncommon for people to bring in tea/coffee to the sanctuary during worship time. My wife hates that (she was raised in a Lutheran setting), and I'm not a huge fan of it, either (as you know, I was raised in the South land :q)). However, we don't really raise a protest or anything, since this is Seattle aftere all, this church has been OK with this for years, etc. We feel that it is a minor issue, and so we let it go.

We still try to teach and model some modicum of respect from folks during the worship time, yet we are still "informal" in many ways (dress for one), and we have some freedom in worship, although I utilize some formal elements (Lord's Prayer, Creeds, public reading of Scripture, etc.) in the worship service itself. We try and find a balance between "freedom" in worship and some degree of respect for where we are and what we're doing.

I have friends who pastor churches that have big signs on the door about no food or drink beyond this point, and about being quiet upon entering, etc., etc. There are days when I think that's a great idea, and other days when I don't.

Has our culture lost some of the reverence it once had? If so, is that OK, or should we as leaders be pro-active in bringing some of it back (without killing the move of the Spirit, of course). Are we not teaching this enough to a world that is so accustomed to "self-service" and self-aggrandizement? Is this a discipleship issue we're missing, or are we finally "waking up" to the way it should be?

Thoughts?

Thanks,

Charles

You just haaaad to bring it up didn't you? :basic03:laughing

[Mike Schutz]

As much as "awe," I hope that my congregation arrives with some level of excitement and expectancy... This is very hard to cultivate, but as a pastor, I want to foster an environment where we learn to expect God to move in our midst, and we can't wait to get into church.

In that regard, I would rather people bring their coffee into worship then to linger outside in the coffee room until the last possible minute before coming into the sanctuary.

Coffee or no coffee... what I would most like to see is a congregation gathered at 10:44, because they can't wait to get started! :)

Since we don't have a button to express this, let me take the space of a post to say...
AMEN!

[Bill Evans]

I remember when I was a pastor that an older woman approached me at the front of the sanctuary to engage in a personal conversation. Upon giving her my attention, she asked that we move away from the altar out of respect for the sacredness of what transpired there. While at first I felt like we were in the "holy of holies" in the ancient Temple, I later appreciated the high regard that she demonstrated in lovingly speaking her mind to her pastor.

[Gina Stevenson]

Barb, I have no intention of jumping you *hugs*

I do want to comment on one thing. You said I actually have a medical condition that I am receiving treatment for but even with the treatment I do have to have water with me at all times.

Likewise. I carried water w/me before it was "cool ... the thing to do," or there were "cool water bottles." Have been carrying hydration w/me since throat surgery, which left it configured so that air gets where air did not used to and, hence, dries it out more than normal prior to that surgery [half of thyroid was removed, due to imbedded growth].

As for coffee ... used to taking something to drink everywhere, I began taking coffee into the sanctuary for the first time in my life when we began attending this place where they did that. But I admit it felt strange, and it wasn't too long before I was just taking my good old water, & no coffee. Didn't feel I could not worship with it, but it just wasn't something I'd been used to, I guess. ;)

[Dale Cozby]

If you want people to show respect simply guidance is often all that is needed.

During the tenebrae service simple instructions are given before the service that we request that no one takes pictures, everyone turns off thier phones, and at the end they wait until they leave the sanctuary before speaking or visiting with each other.

If you want the service to be respected then often all you have to do is ask in a polite and respectful way and people eagerly comply.

If a person wears a hat into the service, politely ask them if they would remove it during the service. Since hats are optional attire most will willingly agree to remove it.

If a person brings a drink into the sanctuary prior to the service, politely ask that cell phones are turned off, and food and drink are removed.

Even Paul gave instructions about the worship service to the Corinthians, including food and drink in the service, see 1 Corinthians 11.

Sometimes all we need to do as pastors is give a little guidance in how to show respect, how to worship in a better way, after that people begin to do so from following each others lead and find solace and worship in doing so.

John Wesley certainly did that with his congregations did he not?


Other random thoughts about respect:

Never demand respect, always ask for it respectfully.
Earned respect is the highest compliment and the most sincere form of it.
Teach respect by demonstrating it to others.
Respect may begin with fear and selfishness, but in the end it is a road to charity.
Respect is the beginning of worship not the end.

[Wayne Paul]

Barb, I do agree with you in this one. I remember one time walking into the St. Louis Cathedral and being awed! I felt the same way when entering St. Patrick's Cathedral in NYC. It was very awe inspiring. I think that the protestant church has done a disservice to us all in un-Catholicizing our buildings. HOWEVER, I worship in a sanctuary/gym where I am awed by God every service. So, I stand firmly on the fence.:) I agree that coffee/refreshments can be left out of my worship experience.

Contemporary evangelical churches build auditoriums while liturgical churches build monuments to God!

The artistry of these monuments communicates with the soul in a way that creates awe and reverence. I experienced this while attending this afternoon’s performance of Handel’s “Joshua” at Boise’s Cathedral of the Rockies. …Awesome!!!

[Glenda Harvey]

I have started taking a cup of water into church with me ( I can never remember to bring a water bottle ) because my throat gets dry and I start coughing. I used to have to get up during the service whenever I was unable to stop. Now I have a cup of water and I also keep cough drops in my purse for the same reason. I think this is more respectful than getting up during the service or disturbing the people around me with my coughing.

What has bothered me at times as been clapping after someone sings a solo. This has become common place in churches but there have been times when a song has made feel worshipful and thoughtful and when everyone starts clapping it seems to ruin the moment.

As with other churches our sanctuary doubles as a fellowship hall and I think this tends to make people feel less formal.

[Anne and Dwayne Hood]

There use to be a sign above the sactuary door at one church where we were, that said "Quiet Please." We had a workshop there one Saturday, and the leader walked up to the doorway, took the sign down, broke it in half, and stepped into a class room, and put it into a trash can.

[Susan Unger]

What does it mean to you in regard to church life and worship?

The hat thread got me thinking about this a bit.

My church has coffee in the foyer/lobby area every morning. It's not uncommon for people to bring in tea/coffee to the sanctuary during worship time. My wife hates that (she was raised in a Lutheran setting), and I'm not a huge fan of it, either (as you know, I was raised in the South land :q)). However, we don't really raise a protest or anything, since this is Seattle aftere all, this church has been OK with this for years, etc. We feel that it is a minor issue, and so we let it go.

We still try to teach and model some modicum of respect from folks during the worship time, yet we are still "informal" in many ways (dress for one), and we have some freedom in worship, although I utilize some formal elements (Lord's Prayer, Creeds, public reading of Scripture, etc.) in the worship service itself. We try and find a balance between "freedom" in worship and some degree of respect for where we are and what we're doing.

I have friends who pastor churches that have big signs on the door about no food or drink beyond this point, and about being quiet upon entering, etc., etc. There are days when I think that's a great idea, and other days when I don't.

Has our culture lost some of the reverence it once had? If so, is that OK, or should we as leaders be pro-active in bringing some of it back (without killing the move of the Spirit, of course). Are we not teaching this enough to a world that is so accustomed to "self-service" and self-aggrandizement? Is this a discipleship issue we're missing, or are we finally "waking up" to the way it should be?

Thoughts?

Thanks,

Charles

Well, my church's sanctuary is really a multi-purpose room that doubles as our place to worship and our place to have dinners. So, just curious, how would this fit into your question?

[Wayne Paul]

There use to be a sign above the sactuary door at one church where we were, that said "Quiet Please." We had a workshop there one Saturday, and the leader walked up to the doorway, took the sign down, broke it in half, and stepped into a class room, and put it into a trash can.

Was anyone in the church consulted prior to this action? If there wasn't prior approval I would have considered this an inexcusable act of arrogant vandalism.

Was this workshop conducted by a facilitator, or a dictator? I know how I would vote on that question!

[Charles W Christian]

Well, my church's sanctuary is really a multi-purpose room that doubles as our place to worship and our place to have dinners. So, just curious, how would this fit into your question?

Susan -
The sanctuary at my church is the same! This is why these kinds of questions come up.

I wonder.... We say that "church" or "worship" is not focused upon the building, but on the people. So, how this question may have some relevance to folks with our kinds of buildings is that when the people of the church gather for worship, should it be different than when they gather for food activities, etc.?

That's my quick response to how the question "applies." I have no desire to imply an answer for any group. It's just a question.

Thanks,
Charles
:basic07

[Susan Unger]

Susan -
The sanctuary at my church is the same! This is why these kinds of questions come up.

I wonder.... We say that "church" or "worship" is not focused upon the building, but on the people. So, how this question may have some relevance to folks with our kinds of buildings is that when the people of the church gather for worship, should it be different than when they gather for food activities, etc.?

That's my quick response to how the question "applies." I have no desire to imply an answer for any group. It's just a question.

Thanks,
Charles
:basic07

Hmm.....I have never had the sense that this was an issue at my church. People are too busy chatting to think about beverages/food in the sanctuary. People tend to get that stuff before their sunday school class so that they can leisurely eat it in the classroom and not worry about making a mess in church.

But then our refreshment area is off to the side of the sanctuary [not in the lobby] so that you can't get to it if you on your way from the front door to the sanctuary.

[Crystal Lutton]

Well we feed everyone a huge meal after the service so they don't have to worry about what might happen if they get hungry ;)

We do ask that food and drink (other than water) not be brought into the sanctuary but mostly because it's not our building--we use a Nazarene Church building on Saturday and rent office space from them.

[Jared Rider]

Honestly I don't know just what to think about this, and the things that are coming to mind are mixed. Be brought in the time that I have been I have enough of the old school to think that we should put signs up and expect people to follow them. But I also think that we need to be careful about the attitude in which we handle the sitiutation. For me it and most others my age or those that have never been in the church, it comes down to the attitude. I have seen the attitude of the more seasoned Christian almost completely kill churches. I was serving a church as an assicate of youth and family, I talked with the pastor about having coffee and snack in the entery trying to create a welcoming atomshpere. And the attitude of this simple addition was not good, I was also using to get the teens invovled in the effort to get them to started in take some kind of ownership of the church. I make it short some of the seasoned Christians of the church caused such a stink that I almost lost three teenagers and I had two that when they were there you could tell that they felt like why am I here I am not wanted.

I think that as long as you handle it in the right attitude, and with love that the respect that you are talking about here will just start to really take hold. I feel that we have to be careful of those sacried cows that are so prevelent in the church, because they could easally become our golden calf and cause a rift in the relationship that we should be having in the church and with our God.

[Gina Stevenson]

Yes, Jared, I agree that about the time kids ... or anyone, actually ... begins to get the idea/feel as if things are more important to others than they/people are, that's so hurtful. So, we certainly do have to balance taking care of a building with remembering that it's there to accommodate people/relationships, rather than as a monumental idol.

BTW, welcome to NazNet.

For me it and most others my age or those that have never been in the church, it comes down to the attitude. I have seen the attitude of the more seasoned Christian almost completely kill churches. I was serving a church as an assicate of youth and family, I talked with the pastor about having coffee and snack in the entery trying to create a welcoming atomshpere. And the attitude of this simple addition was not good, I was also using to get the teens invovled in the effort to get them to started in take some kind of ownership of the church. I make it short some of the seasoned Christians of the church caused such a stink that I almost lost three teenagers and I had two that when they were there you could tell that they felt like why am I here I am not wanted.

I think that as long as you handle it in the right attitude, and with love that the respect that you are talking about here will just start to really take hold. I feel that we have to be careful of those sacried cows that are so prevelent in the church, because they could easally become our golden calf and cause a rift in the relationship that we should be having in the church and with our God.

[Anne and Dwayne Hood]

Millington has coffee, in the Fellowship hall before Sunday school. They usually have snacks, also. Lately, an elderly black lady has been bringing home made biscuits, sausage, etc. About fifteen of the people, are her family, and she sees that they, and others have a good breakfast..sausage biscuits. Long, before Dwayne retired from the pastorate, we bought a four slice toaster, so the people, who ate after getting to church, could have toast, and jelly or jam. In the past years, we have had children, that did not get breakfst at home, and once one told me that she was not going to have any lunch either. They were already serving coffee and doughnuts when we arrived there, but it later needed to be expanded to more. A lady makes a large punch bowl of koolaid for the children, with ice in it.
I was raised and taught that we were not suppose to eat in church.

[John Kennedy]

Evidently you backslid. :-)))

[Barbara Moulton]

I had a very formative experience when I was younger. I was in the sanctuary before church with a friend who had not been in our building before. In our church we had a "mourner's bench" (called a Mercy Seat) and my friend sat down on it.

Before I had a chance to tell her what that bench was, an older woman rushed forward and lectured her loudly and rudely about this terrible thing she had done.

Although I was young, as I watched this unfold I filed away two lessons in my heart. Those lessons have stayed with me through the years.

1. People are more important than buildings or items in the building. If a church burnt down we would never say, "Well, ten people were killed in the fire but thankfully, the carpet in the sanctuary was saved." How ludicrous does that sound? Yet, if we work at "keeping" the building (or parts of the building or things in the building) safe and/or sacred, but do it in an ungraceful manner we might very well find that we have kept the carpet nice but lost souls. I respect every person who enters my building far more than I respect the building. In our sanctuary we allow coffee...in fact people can choose to sit at tables and chairs at the side or in regular chairs in the middle. I sense no lack of respect in the people entering with a coffee in their hands.

2. I try to treat every person, regardless of their age, with that grace and respect. I always wondered if that woman would have been so rude to an adult who was visiting. Maybe she would have. But I remember many incidences when people seemed to feel my youth gave them permission to talk to me in a rude and disrespectful manner.

Now, having said all this, I have no problem with other churches having guidelines for their sanctuary. As long as they respect people who come into that sanctuary more than they do those guidelines.

Blessings,
Barbara

[Susan Unger]

1. People are more important than buildings or items in the building.

2. I try to treat every person, regardless of their age, with that grace and respect. I always wondered if that woman would have been so rude to an adult who was visiting.

Very well put. I especially liked the part about being rude to a kid. I noticed that alot when I was young. That my youth seemed to give people in church permission to be rude to me. In fact, that brings up some bad memories for me. Sigh...something else for God to sort out in my head and heart.

[Wayne Paul]

Very well put. I especially liked the part about being rude to a kid. I noticed that alot when I was young. That my youth seemed to give people in church permission to be rude to me. In fact, that brings up some bad memories for me. Sigh...something else for God to sort out in my head and heart.

Treating people with dignity and r-e-s-p-e-c-t is a concept which is often missing from American society. This is especially true of adults dealing with children which results in the way young people treat the elderly.

When you speak to a child you must keep in mind that this very person may be the one who someday replaces the valve in your heart, defend you in a court of law, rescue you from a burning build, provide hospice care, etc.

I recognize that children may need correction; however, it should never be done in a way that is demeaning to their dignity as human beings created in the image of God.

It is especially sad when anyone is mistreated in an location that is identified as the “House of God.”

[Susan Unger]

Treating people with dignity and r-e-s-p-e-c-t is a concept which is often missing from American society. This is especially true of adults dealing with children which results in the way young people treat the elderly.

When you speak to a child you must keep in mind that this very person may be the one who someday replaces the valve in your heart, defend you in a court of law, rescue you from a burning build, provide hospice care, etc.

I recognize that children may need correction; however, it should never be done in a way that is demeaning to their dignity as human beings created in the image of God.

It is especially sad when anyone is mistreated in an location that is identified as the “House of God.”

When I think of some of these folks from my former church, I feel that the reason why they did such things was out of lack of love for the kids. We had a van ministry with lots of kids from unchurched homes who were never taught how to act in church or a public place. The children's workers would be loving but many in the rest of the congregation saw such children as "impediments" to their worship and treated them as such. They would also complain alot about how these kids would "ruin" the worship time.

[Being sarcastic] Well, they have their wish now ~ there are no more children attending that church to disrupt their church service. Lack of love towards God and fellow humans have driven away most people, myself included. Oh...the memories....

[Gina Stevenson]

........

Now, having said all this, I have no problem with other churches having guidelines for their sanctuary. As long as they respect people who come into that sanctuary more than they do those guidelines.

Blessings,
Barbara

Yes, where's the AMEN! button! Oh, yeah ... no button, just a smiley in the list of smileys ... so we have to post to use that. ;)

:amen :amen :amen

[Crystal Lutton]

When I think of some of these folks from my former church, I feel that the reason why they did such things was out of lack of love for the kids. We had a van ministry with lots of kids from unchurched homes who were never taught how to act in church or a public place. The children's workers would be loving but many in the rest of the congregation saw such children as "impediments" to their worship and treated them as such. They would also complain alot about how these kids would "ruin" the worship time.

[Being sarcastic] Well, they have their wish now ~ there are no more children attending that church to disrupt their church service. Lack of love towards God and fellow humans have driven away most people, myself included. Oh...the memories....
This is so sad :( I wish people would remember that the Golden Rule and the Fruit of the Spirit have no exceptions for those under 21. As we do to the least of these . . .

[Susan Unger]

This is so sad :( I wish people would remember that the Golden Rule and the Fruit of the Spirit have no exceptions for those under 21. As we do to the least of these . . .

This church was/is highly legalistic. I can't pinpoint when the legalism started [the church was formed in 1929], but it was definitely going strong there when I was a kid and has only gotten worse as the years have gone by. I left that place in 2005 and then left the whole environment of that area 2 years ago. Since then, God has been healing me, but the layers of the onion are many and deep. The last 2 months have been intense as God has really been working overtime to get rid of 30 some years of garbage. It is so intense, that I just feel like vomiting in a spiritual sense out the garbage that has been making me so soul sick the last few decades. For the first time ever [and I have been a christian for 24.5 years] I think I am detecting "joy" coming out. It took me the first 10 years of my christian walk to even understand what christian joy was [not that I ever felt it]. This was due to bizarre and/or incorrect preaching I heard as a kid.

Considering how legalistic that place was, it is no wonder the congregation treated the kids as someone to disrespect. The little kids were breaking their rules [notice the play on words - legalism is all about don't break the rules]. What bothers me is that for awhile there I bought into it, too. I think what changed me was growing spiritually and then when I got to know the kids as persons with feelings and hearts [and not people to order about], I stopped doing that.

BTW, if anyone is so moved, they obviously need prayer. They are still considered an active congregation. But, when I see all the garbage coming out of me, I can only imagine the truck loads of garbage that still live in them!

[Crystal Lutton]

Susan,

I'm so glad the Lord has clearly had his hand on you because growing up in that environment could easily have turned you off to a relationship with Him. When those who are supposed to model his love get it so wrong it's an even greater testimony to his love and faithfulness that anyone comes to him through that.

I hope you have gotten or are getting some good counsel to heal from all the junk you had deposited into you *hugs*

[Susan Unger]

Susan,

I'm so glad the Lord has clearly had his hand on you because growing up in that environment could easily have turned you off to a relationship with Him. When those who are supposed to model his love get it so wrong it's an even greater testimony to his love and faithfulness that anyone comes to him through that.

I hope you have gotten or are getting some good counsel to heal from all the junk you had deposited into you *hugs*

I think what made the difference was that my parents weren't legalistic, my sunday school teachers loved kids and my mom's family were loving christians.

I can't say that I have had counsel from anyone, just lots of prayer. And as a part of the healing, God would led me to books, peoples' testimony, direct communication from him to explain what was going on and so forth. There have been times when I have needed someone for counseling but haven't found many. A few friends are commited to praying for me which I am very thankful for. The closest to a counseling experience is that a fellow sufferer from that crazy place and I will vent and commiserate with each other.

Often though it has saddened me that so many don't seem to understand my grief - whether through ignorance or through being held captive to legalism themselves. I am either told superficial stuff, stupid stuff or hateful stuff. I think too some people are just uncomfortable with emotions and don't want to hear about mine. Those that do understand my grief [cuz they have experienced too] are either too far away to give me the close support I need or have too many of their own hang ups to be of help to me.

[Mike Killingsworth]

Treating people with dignity and r-e-s-p-e-c-t is a concept which is often missing from American society. This is especially true of adults dealing with children which results in the way young people treat the elderly.

When you speak to a child you must keep in mind that this very person may be the one who someday replaces the valve in your heart, defend you in a court of law, rescue you from a burning build, provide hospice care, etc.

I recognize that children may need correction; however, it should never be done in a way that is demeaning to their dignity as human beings created in the image of God.

It is especially sad when anyone is mistreated in an location that is identified as the “House of God.”


I remember when I was 8 or 9 years old the church I was going to had a Caravan program. Now I will admit as a child I wasn't the best student to have in a class since I was always trying to be the class clown. Any way there was a man whom I won't name who was over the caravan program at the time. I remember one night at the meeting he told me if I acted up he was going to tie me in a chair and every time I moved he was going to tighting the rope up on me and of course me being me I just had to take him up on his offer. I did enough for him to tie me in the chair of which I sat in myself, he didn't put me there cause to me he was just playing a game. Being true to his word every time I moved he would tighten the rope up a little and laugh, now I will say the rope never got tight enough where it hurt me in any way but from that day on, in fact up till he passed away a few years ago every time I would see him the first thing that came to my mind is he and that rope many years ago. I guess I said all that to just say this. Children don't grow up and forget, they grow up and remember. I now help my wife teach a pre-teen Sunday School class and I do my very best to let those children know I love them. Most especially when they tend to act like I once did. :)

[Barbara Moulton]

It's amazing the things that went on in the church when some of us were younger eh? If one of my chldren had told me that someone had done that to them, I would have considered it abuse and insisted that the man be removed from children's ministry.





I remember when I was 8 or 9 years old the church I was going to had a Caravan program. Now I will admit as a child I wasn't the best student to have in a class since I was always trying to be the class clown. Any way there was a man whom I won't name who was over the caravan program at the time. I remember one night at the meeting he told me if I acted up he was going to tie me in a chair and every time I moved he was going to tighting the rope up on me and of course me being me I just had to take him up on his offer. I did enough for him to tie me in the chair of which I sat in myself, he didn't put me there cause to me he was just playing a game. Being true to his word every time I moved he would tighten the rope up a little and laugh, now I will say the rope never got tight enough where it hurt me in any way but from that day on, in fact up till he passed away a few years ago every time I would see him the first thing that came to my mind is he and that rope many years ago. I guess I said all that to just say this. Children don't grow up and forget, they grow up and remember. I now help my wife teach a pre-teen Sunday School class and I do my very best to let those children know I love them. Most especially when they tend to act like I once did. :)

[Susan Unger]

It's amazing the things that went on in the church when some of us were younger eh? If one of my chldren had told me that someone had done that to them, I would have considered it abuse and insisted that the man be removed from children's ministry.

:amen :preach

[Susan Unger]

I remember when I was 8 or 9 years old the church I was going to had a Caravan program. Now I will admit as a child I wasn't the best student to have in a class since I was always trying to be the class clown. Any way there was a man whom I won't name who was over the caravan program at the time. I remember one night at the meeting he told me if I acted up he was going to tie me in a chair and every time I moved he was going to tighting the rope up on me and of course me being me I just had to take him up on his offer. I did enough for him to tie me in the chair of which I sat in myself, he didn't put me there cause to me he was just playing a game. Being true to his word every time I moved he would tighten the rope up a little and laugh, now I will say the rope never got tight enough where it hurt me in any way but from that day on, in fact up till he passed away a few years ago every time I would see him the first thing that came to my mind is he and that rope many years ago. I guess I said all that to just say this. Children don't grow up and forget, they grow up and remember. I now help my wife teach a pre-teen Sunday School class and I do my very best to let those children know I love them. Most especially when they tend to act like I once did. :)

:amen Hopefully, they will grow up and see you as an example of love in church.

[Mike Killingsworth]

It's amazing the things that went on in the church when some of us were younger eh? If one of my chldren had told me that someone had done that to them, I would have considered it abuse and insisted that the man be removed from children's ministry.




For some reason I never told anyone about this until I was much older. I think it may of had to do with the fact that my Daddy wasn't a Christian at the time and I knew it would be lights out for this man if I did. As I remember we probably had one more meeting after that one and then the Caravan program folded and as far as I know that guy never did anything else in the church except maybe take up the offering. It was just a few years later when I was 11 that my Daddy got saved and then was called to preach and we moved to Colorado where he attended Bible College so I really can't say what the guy did in the church after we left. I do know at some point he left that church and started going to another church close by.