Barna say's I don't poses a biblical wordview- do you?

[Gary Creely]

So in a recent survey George Barna and gang found that only 7% of "born again" Christians have a "biblical word view", and only 51% of protestant pastors (I'm not one of them). I have always thought that Barna spins statistics to say what he wants them to say, but this is a prime example.

Here is how they define a Biblical world view- "Defining such a worldview as believing that absolute moral truth exists, that it is based upon the Bible, and having a biblical view on six core beliefs (the accuracy of biblical teaching, the sinless nature of Jesus, the literal existence of Satan, the omnipotence and omniscience of God, salvation by grace alone, and the personal responsibility to evangelize)"

Are you kidding me ? I think it is interesting that Barna puts out these statistics as if the Christians today are primarily heretics and he is fighting the good fight to make the remaining 7% of orthodox believers aware of this travesty. Since he wrote the score card for what a "biblical world view" is, than really what this statistic shows is how many Christian agree with Barna's definition, which is an entirely different question. This is misleading, alarmist, and inaccurate information.

Shame on you Barna with your weak inaccurate polling.

Barnas article can be found in its entirety here:
http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=BarnaUpdate&BarnaUpdateID=156

[William Hunter]

Barna's formal training was in business. He did not attend seminary and does not know how to deal with theological issues. I have long since stopped reading much of what he says, or if I read it, let it go. He needs to stop and go to a good seminary and learn to think Biblically.

[Tami Martin]

There are lies, there are ________ lies and there are statistics.

I have never read a study or a statistic without thinking of that quote. It's been helpful.

[Dale Cozby]

Barna's formal training was in business. He did not attend seminary and does not know how to deal with theological issues. I have long since stopped reading much of what he says, or if I read it, let it go. He needs to stop and go to a good seminary and learn to think Biblically.What if seminiaries today are where people stop thinking Biblically.:eek: I wouldn't give you two cents for some of the theology/philosophy that comes out of seminaries today. I think( just my opnion of course) seminaries are doing more harm than good. Harvard, Duke, and I won't list others that have puked out some heresy and tainted ideas that is embraced by those who hear what thier itching ears want to hear. Oops I quoted a Bible verse....sorry...most don't believe that is a source for authority today, just global consensus via mass media filtered information.

But that is just my opinion, just like you have one too. Opinions are free to own and everyone has one, Barna too.

I had it figured at about 6% really living out thier faith "Biblically" in the US. those who put thier faith in action.

About 1/3 go to church weekly. 33%
20% of those carry 80% of the burdens 33 x .2 = 6.6
At least 10% of those are still doing it purely for selfish reasons/motives (personal observation)
So 6.6% - .6% = 6% or about 1 in 20 Americans Act like Christians (someone trying to follow Christ's teaching 100% of the time) ethically and morally in all thier decision making.

So that is my observation of Orthopraxis. Barna got there by polling orthodoxy.

[Gary Creely]

I had it figured at about 6% really living out thier faith "Biblically" in the US. those who put thier faith in action.

About 1/3 go to church weekly. 33%
20% of those carry 80% of the burdens 33 x .2 = 6.6
At least 10% of those are still doing it purely for selfish reasons/motives (personal observation)
So 6.6% - .6% = 6% or about 1 in 20 Americans Act like Christians (someone trying to follow Christ's teaching 100% of the time) ethically and morally in all thier decision making.

So that is my observation of Orthopraxis. Barna got there by polling orthodoxy.

Dale I think there may be a place for you in the Barna organization !

This poll was not of Americans in general or church going Christians, but those who claim to be "born again", it was only 6% of that minority that had the "right" answers. In Barnas poll he defines orthodoxy himself (and IMO did a pretty poor job of it).

[Dale Cozby]

Gary, I am interested in hearing your definition of orthodox belief, or a Christian worldview, what ever you call it.

I am sure we will get variations from opinion to opinion but if Barna did a bad job, then I am wondering what you think he left out or included that he shouldn't in creating a Biblical/orthodox worldview. You didn't state where he was wrong , only that he was wrong.

[Gary Creely]

Gary, I am interested in hearing your definition of orthodox belief, or a Christian worldview, what ever you call it.

I am sure we will get variations from opinion to opinion but if Barna did a bad job, then I am wondering what you think he left out or included that he shouldn't in creating a Biblical/orthodox worldview. You didn't state where he was wrong , only that he was wrong.

Well for an orthodox Christian word view I would go with something like this:

Circa 325 AD

I believe in one God,
the Father Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
and of all things visible and invisible;

And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the only begotten Son of God,
begotten of his Father before all worlds,
God of God, Light of Light,
very God of very God,
begotten, not made,
being of one substance with the Father;
by whom all things were made;
who for us men and for our salvation
came down from heaven,
and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost
of the Virgin Mary,
and was made man;
and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered and was buried;
and the third day he rose again
according to the Scriptures,
and ascended into heaven,
and sitteth on the right hand of the Father;
and he shall come again, with glory,
to judge both the quick and the dead;
whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost the Lord, and Giver of Life,
who proceedeth from the Father [and the Son];
who with the Father and the Son together
is worshipped and glorified;
who spake by the Prophets.
And I believe one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church;
I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins;
and I look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. AMEN.

[William Hunter]

Dale, if you look hard enough you can find bad in almost anything. As I said, he needs to go to a good seminary. There are plenty of them out there.



What if seminiaries today are where people stop thinking Biblically.:eek: I wouldn't give you two cents for some of the theology/philosophy that comes out of seminaries today. I think( just my opnion of course) seminaries are doing more harm than good. Harvard, Duke, and I won't list others that have puked out some heresy and tainted ideas that is embraced by those who hear what thier itching ears want to hear. Oops I quoted a Bible verse....sorry...most don't believe that is a source for authority today, just global consensus via mass media filtered information.

But that is just my opinion, just like you have one too. Opinions are free to own and everyone has one, Barna too.

I had it figured at about 6% really living out thier faith "Biblically" in the US. those who put thier faith in action.

About 1/3 go to church weekly. 33%
20% of those carry 80% of the burdens 33 x .2 = 6.6
At least 10% of those are still doing it purely for selfish reasons/motives (personal observation)
So 6.6% - .6% = 6% or about 1 in 20 Americans Act like Christians (someone trying to follow Christ's teaching 100% of the time) ethically and morally in all thier decision making.

So that is my observation of Orthopraxis. Barna got there by polling orthodoxy.

[Ken Pell]

I have read a number of Barna books and my observation is that he is the master of spinning statistics.

He will write a book spinning stats and then write a follow-up piece spinning more facts to prove his book.

He approaches surveys with a conclusion already in mind. If that was not the case then every set of survey he conducts would not reinforce his own world view.

[Dale Cozby]

Gary, I wonder how many of the statements in the creed were added because at some point ( between Jesus' ascension and 325) someone/some group challenged the "truths" of each of those claims so it was added into the "creed"

Such as every claim about Jesus:
only begotten Son , begotten of his Father before all worlds, not made,
being of one substance with the Father;
by whom all things were made;who for us men and for our salvation
came down from heaven,
and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost
of the Virgin Mary,
and was made man;
and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered and was buried;
and the third day he rose again
according to the Scriptures,
and ascended into heaven,
and sitteth on the right hand of the Father;
and he shall come again, with glory,
to judge both the quick and the dead;
whose kingdom shall have no end.


Also do you still believe this is the means of salvation? or has this been altered in meaning in 1700 yrs?

"I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins;"

I think all Barna is doing is trying to address the challenges to the church of today from his perspective. Essentially we all do that from our own perspective. Some would say that all of mankind is saved regardless of behavior or beliefs, most others put some limits on it, so who is to say Barna is wrong for putting limits on who he thinks is living with a "right" view of the world? We all do it, unles we are universalists, but only Barna polls people and sees the effect of those views on peoples actions. I find his work interesting.

He approaches surveys with a conclusion already in mind. If that was not the case then every set of survey he conducts would not reinforce his own world view. Hmm...working with a thesis in mind. Isnt that the scientific method? And statistics are a science, not an art. I took it in college....it was a science class not an art class. So to work toward reinforcing your thesis sounds like most scientists today. In fact most scientists hate it when someone works on a thesis opposite thiers. ( ID comes to mind) No one wants thier work to be in vain, so they build on thier own thesis with each new piece of evidence that supports them and it takes huge irrefutable overwhelming piece of evidence to change thier mind.

[Gary Creely]

Dale,

From your comments I can tell we see the world very differently. My original post criticizes Barnas poor approach to statistics as being more a reflection of his opinion rather than scientific research.

I am not sure on what basis the example I cited could be considered scientific? In fact my point is it is alarmist and deceptive.

You said "I think all Barna is doing is trying to address the challenges to the church of today from his perspective"- and you think this is scientific?

I do not.

[Ken Pell]

Hmm...working with a thesis in mind. Isnt that the scientific method? And statistics are a science, not an art. I took it in college....it was a science class not an art class. So to work toward reinforcing your thesis sounds like most scientists today. In fact most scientists hate it when someone works on a thesis opposite thiers. ( ID comes to mind) No one wants thier work to be in vain, so they build on thier own thesis with each new piece of evidence that supports them and it takes huge irrefutable overwhelming piece of evidence to change thier mind.
No. he maniplutaes findings to arrive at his pre-formed thesis. This is NOT scientific.

When a survey's first 6 questions or so are designed to weed out or differentiate between those who conform to Barna's preconceived notion of "born-again" etc. from "the rest" so he can use only the data from people who agree or disagree and then he creates entire theories that he wants you to think are generally held, you do not have science -- you have deceptive manipulation.

[Bob Carabbio]

ABSOLUTELY!!! By George's standards, I'd most definitly hold a "Biblical World View", and for that matter, the official position of the denomination that I belong to these days (AoG) does too.

Admittedly there's much more that COULD BE SAID, and a person could Intellectually hold all six of the "definitions", and still not even BE a real Christian. But if one takes the Bible and it's teachings at ALL seriously, it'd be hard for me to understand why all 6 of the "key points" wouldn't be a "given" for a professing Christian. They're really nothing more than "Christianity 101".

[Steven Martinez]

The issue I have with the study is that there is little in deffinition of the six beliefs. For example, what does accuracy of biblical teaching mean? If it means an inerrant view of Scripture than most Nazarenes would not have a "Biblical Worldview" as defined by Barna. It seems to me that he is trying to convey a conservative Evangelical worldview as a biblical one (the fact that Southern Baptists are more "biblical" then say Methodists or other Wesleyan Churches seems to suggest this).
What I find interesting is that Barna is more concerned with a literal belief of Satan than teachings such as a literal belief in the Resurrection of Christ, the Trinity or loving one's neighbor.