Everything Must Change

[Ryan Scott]

I know it's a provocative title, but perhaps more people will take a look.

I just spent the weekend participating in the Everything Must Change Tour stop here in Kansas City. I know a number of regular posters have gotten in on this tour in its various cities. I was just wondering how many.

Did you attend? Where? What were your thoughts?

I tried to find the other threads where it had been mentioned, but didn't have any luck.

[David Pettigrew]

I was at the Nampa stop, in conjunction with the NNU Wesley conference.

1) Really enjoyed it.
2) Still processing it these three months later.
3) My personality does not lend itself well to emergent worship experiences. I got the giggles singing about sister moon and brother bird. Not into sitting in my seat until the spirit moves me to go stick my fingers in dirt. I hate "breaking out" in small groups and discussing what has just been said - it always feels so awkward to me. SO...the worship was probably the best part for me, because it stretched me so far.

[Ryan Scott]

I was at the Nampa stop, in conjunction with the NNU Wesley conference.

1) Really enjoyed it.
2) Still processing it these three months later.
3) My personality does not lend itself well to emergent worship experiences. I got the giggles singing about sister moon and brother bird. Not into sitting in my seat until the spirit moves me to go stick my fingers in dirt. I hate "breaking out" in small groups and discussing what has just been said - it always feels so awkward to me. SO...the worship was probably the best part for me, because it stretched me so far.

I like your conclusion; I didn't see it coming.

[Heidi Anderson]

I went to the Seattle stop.

Loved McLaren - didn't love the "coaches" - as most churches/missions can't afford "mission coaches" although the idea is intriguing.

I too didn't like the Nude Truths - what was that??

I too am digesting - loving the thoughts - open to what the Holy Spirit will do in me and thru me after this experience. My greatest joy was my kid sister and her total transformation from hoity toity to selling her prize possessions the next week and sending all the money to Kiva. THAT was the reason I went and I'm so thankful to the Lord for his transforming work in her life.

All in all - aside from brother bird - and "stand if you're able" it was great.

Ryan: what were your thoughts/conclusions?

[Dave McClung]

I went to the Seattle stop.

Loved McLaren - didn't love the "coaches" - as most churches/missions can't afford "mission coaches" although the idea is intriguing.

I too didn't like the Nude Truths - what was that??

I too am digesting - loving the thoughts - open to what the Holy Spirit will do in me and thru me after this experience. My greatest joy was my kid sister and her total transformation from hoity toity to selling her prize possessions the next week and sending all the money to Kiva. THAT was the reason I went and I'm so thankful to the Lord for his transforming work in her life.

All in all - aside from brother bird - and "stand if you're able" it was great.

Ryan: what were your thoughts/conclusions?

Hello, Heidi. I had not previously noticed that you are our neighbor. I am glad to see another Kiva enthuasist on Naznet.

[Ryan Scott]

I'm beginning to wonder if we didn't get a different sort of experience at ours. A few of the songs were a bit unusual, but the ones we sang multiple times were really meaningful. And the coaches hardly spoke.

I did appreciate the art exhibit, although I'm a big fan of abstract art, so it was a lot of fun to experience that, especially in a group of that size.

There were a lot of relatively simple points presented in profound ways. I appreciated the chance to be there, but would have felt lost without the closing session.

I'll have to see how I process things in the weeks to come and as I actually read the book.

[Meghan Schoonover]

I got the giggles singing about sister moon and brother bird.

Heh. I loved that! It was awkward at first for me, felt very "new age," even though I was familiar with the Canticle of the Sun (http://www.webster.edu/~barrettb/canticle.htm), and had, of course, sang it as "All Creatures of Our God and King." I like that style of worship and it is truly meaningful for me. Interestingly, I went to light a candle and found myself at the prayer station being prayed for! I was very surprised, and having that unknown lady pray for me about something personal was probably the most meaningful thing from that whole convention.

I'm still reading the book. Still trying to find what *to* do. So many times I go "yeah, yeah!" and then feel helplessly lost about *how* to change and get out of my MO.

[Billy Cox]

I know it's a provocative title, but perhaps more people will take a look.

I just spent the weekend participating in the Everything Must Change Tour stop here in Kansas City. I know a number of regular posters have gotten in on this tour in its various cities. I was just wondering how many.

Did you attend? Where? What were your thoughts?

I tried to find the other threads where it had been mentioned, but didn't have any luck.

I considered going, but just couldn't pony up $109. Another casualty of paying for a mission trip to Germany in July. It had better be worth it!

[Hans Deventer]

Did you attend? Where? What were your thoughts?

I attended the Nampa meeting with Meghan, David, Kevin and Bob.

I really liked how it all blended together with the worship. Though some parts of it didn't appeal to me (the dirt thing), others most certainly did and since there was a choice, it was fine with me.
The songs were very different indeed. Made you think. But lots better than all the "I-centered" songs we sing on our own church. I'm getting sick of those.

Anyway, I'm one of those to whom music speaks most strongly. So I loved songs like "11:57 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKuCaPkR7O4) and Majesty & Power (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDj3FehAyVw) (start at 1:17, at the 2nd attempt).

The main story made a lot of sense to me.

As I wrote to Tom, conferences like these are to make you think. Well, this one surely did! Read the book on the plane home. Like others, I'm still wondering what exactly to do though.

[Jeremy D. Scott]

My brother Jeff and I went to the stop in DC.

I was challenged by the conference and the book. I wasn't crazy about the musical worship at first, but after a while, it grew on me. I really liked the Lord's Prayer adaptation and have worked on nailing it down for our new worship gathering, The Remembrance.

I wasn't a big fan of the breakout sessions either. But I never am and perhaps I need to be forced to do them. I do remember one particular discussion with two other pastors (both female) that was very good. I was again moved by the way God is moving in the same ways in different places (geographically and across denomination). That is exciting and powerful to me.

The bookseller made me wish I lived in or near Dallastown, PA (where his store is).

I was going to say, with others, that the book is daunting...kind of like, "Woah, okay, you've got me, but what now?" But as I think about it, I have done a few things, small, but done: we're composting now, I'm looking at Eco-lawns, I'm watching this (in my town) (http://hinghamwind.org/) closely, and I am overall less wasteful (and what's interesting is that none of this comes from conviction, but from a healthy desire to nurture what God has pragmatically given). I was already pretty compassionate-driven prior to the conference, but as I think about it, my preaching has been even more poignant on the global need, particularly at the Lord's Table.

I guess I've made myself to realize that right now, as life stands, there are things here and there that I can do.

[Ryan Scott]

We didn't even have breakout sessions in ours. There were three or four times we got literally four minutes to talk to people around us, but they were short and good breaks between topics.

I hear the price thing, Billy. I registered in October, so I only paid $79 and got a free copy of the book. Of course, this Spring they created a $35 student rate for our event. They did let me bring a friend for free since I'd already paid the higher price.

[David Pettigrew]

Somehow this discussion reminded me of Betty Butterfield's visit to the Unitarian Church. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNiibrDYxmM)

[Christa Woodward]

I went to the Seattle conference with Heidi...loved it, but I always love to hear Brian speak. We had him at our church last year and I am always struck by what a genuine person he is - very kind and warm. Its just so nice when you admire someone and they no only meet but exceed your expectations...

I was challenged, inspired, scared, changed...I liked most of the worship, honestly - especially the words to the songs and I really liked the "rap" type songs "11:57" was really good. (And I really loved the words to "I am an Athiest" - shocking at first, because of the title, but wonderful lyrics) I came home excited to see what changes I can make in my home to take care of this world that God gave us and our neighbors all over this planet. I AM my brother's keeper! And this was a great reminder of that....Christa

[David Pettigrew]

What did you all think of the "I am an Atheist" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6yacLd0tjo) song?

[Hans Deventer]

What did you all think of the "I am an Atheist" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6yacLd0tjo) song?

If "you all" includes McLaren, here is what he thinks of it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmJbUgTSsrw

Personally, I liked the song. If we want to be Christlike, it is crucial what image of Jesus I have. Well, I'm indeed an atheist to some of those views.

[Ryan Scott]

What did you all think of the "I am an Atheist" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6yacLd0tjo) song?


I thought the music helped to put the lyrics in proper perspective. I enjoyed all of the music; I was quite surprised at that fact.

[Christa Woodward]

What did you all think of the "I am an Atheist" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6yacLd0tjo) song?

I found it to be challenging and an interesting idea. To take a word that most/all Christians would never identify with and use it in a different way really made me have to think about what the song is saying...I think there are so many things that people do in God's name or indirectly blame God for (I think of a prominent televangelist and his words after 9/11)...And the other side of the song is: "I believe in you - mighty in meekness and gentle in power,I believe in you - the word who has spoken good news to the broken, I believe in you - transcending mystery, with us in history
I believe in you." I really resonated with this...

[Heidi Anderson]

It was/is a great song and we were invited to simply read the words if we were uncomfortable with the song itself.
However...

"I am an atheist when it comes to the god of violent jihad.
I am an atheist when it comes to the lord who converts by the sword.
I am an atheist when it comes to the mission of politicians using religion as ammunition.
I am an atheist to the gods of the greedy ignoring the needy.
I am an atheist to the gods who make others torture and suffer
I am an atheist when it comes to the view of the chosen few, who judge and condemn all who differ them."
words written by Brian McLaren and Aaron Strumpel

[Ryan Scott]

You can't have those words without the chorus, though, it changes the tone incredibly. In fact, at our event, we sang each verse once, but the chorus at least six or seven times. I appreciated more emphasis on the positive than the negative.

[John Kennedy]

Somehow this discussion reminded me of Betty Butterfield's visit to the Unitarian Church. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNiibrDYxmM)

David - Thanks so much for the heads up on Betty Butterfield's visits. You are, indeed, a great spiritual resource in these latter days. Ms. Butterfield does, admittedly, paint with a rather broad brush, anyone who disses Robert Rilton can't be all bad.

Her You Tube stuff could be likened to the Ship of Fools Mystery Worshipper supercharged on steroids.

Since she chose to ignore both the Congregationalists and the Nazarenes we can both breathe a sigh of relief.

[John Kennedy]

Tried to edit the above post to make it Robert Tilton, but I guess I lost the magic touch.

[Heidi Anderson]

You can't have those words without the chorus, though, it changes the tone incredibly. In fact, at our event, we sang each verse once, but the chorus at least six or seven times. I appreciated more emphasis on the positive than the negative.

I agree although nobody posted any words so not everyone reading this knew what we were talking about...so here are all the words...and I agree the positive is so much better!


I am an atheist when it comes to the god of violent jihad.
I am an atheist when it comes to the lord who converts by the sword.
I am an atheist when it comes to the mission of politicians using religion as ammunition.

I believe in you - the artist of trees and galaxies
I believe in you - the poet of oceans and rivers and streams
I believe in you - the god of compassion who calls us to action
I believe in you

I believe in you - majestic designer of space and time
I believe in you - composer of beauty and music of life
I believe in you - the holy forgiver and wild reconciler
I believe in you

I am an atheist to the gods of the greedy ignoring the needy.
I am an atheist to the gods who make others torture and suffer
I am an atheist when it comes to the view of the chosen few, who judge and condemn all who differ them.

I believe in you - mighty in meekness and gentle in power
I believe in you - the word who has spoken good news to the broken
I believe in you - transcending mystery, with us in history
I believe in you
~ words written by Brian McLaren and Aaron Strumpel

[Barbara Moulton]

I like a great deal about the emergent church movement and McLaren's books were resonating with my heart long before I even heard about people emerging. :) But I just can't get my mind around some of their songs that have been posted in various threads on NazNet.

That's not a criticism. I simply see words like "I am an Atheist" as more of a thought provoking poem than something that should be set to music and sung by a group of people.

But I guess the nice thing about the emergent church is that there would be room for people who feel the same way I do right? Or would I have to give up great hymns like "My Jesus I Love Thee" and worship songs like "Shout to the Lord"?

[Ryan Scott]

Don't worry Barbara, I found the same to be true of myself until I attended the conference last weekend. I think they fit very well with the topic and flow of the event, for which they were specifically written. Some of the more powerful songs haven't even been posted here. Someone needs to see if they can find the complete lyrics or even recordings online to link to.

My favorite of the week was "We Have Nothing If We Don't Have Love. (http://restorationvillage.com/chord%20charts/IfWeDontHaveLove.pdf)" The title line is echoed after every line of the entire song. It was really moving to be in a large group singing it that way.

[Heidi Anderson]

Barbara,

I agree and perhaps should not have posted the words for that very reason...you need the music, the mood, the entire conference to kind of understand the context. I apologize!!

You would not have to give up any songs - (maybe the "me" centered ones!) as the theme of emergence (IMHO) is inclusion :basic01

[David Pettigrew]

David - Thanks so much for the heads up on Betty Butterfield's visits. You are, indeed, a great spiritual resource in these latter days. Ms. Butterfield does, admittedly, paint with a rather broad brush, anyone who disses Robert Rilton can't be all bad.

Her You Tube stuff could be likened to the Ship of Fools Mystery Worshipper supercharged on steroids.

Since she chose to ignore both the Congregationalists and the Nazarenes we can both breathe a sigh of relief.

Sorry, Ryan. If I could borrow the thread for just one second -

Betty has provided me with far too many hours of lost productivity.

"Betty" is actually Chuck Knipp, an ordained Quaker minister and a drag queen. His other alter ego is Shirley Q. Liquor, a very controversial figure for a number of reasons. Anyway, Chuck is from Orange, Texas, and I've actually spoken to him a couple of times.

- thread returned to the original subject.

[Susan Unger]

Sorry, Ryan. If I could borrow the thread for just one second -

Betty has provided me with far too many hours of lost productivity.

"Betty" is actually Chuck Knipp, an ordained Quaker minister and a drag queen. His other alter ego is Shirley Q. Liquor, a very controversial figure for a number of reasons. Anyway, Chuck is from Orange, Texas, and I've actually spoken to him a couple of times.

- thread returned to the original subject.

This guy is an ordained QUAKER minister??? :confused: Oh, my....

[Billy Cox]

"Betty" is actually Chuck Knipp, an ordained Quaker minister and a drag queen.

I'll never look at the Quaker Oats man quite the same.

[Christa Woodward]

I like a great deal about the emergent church movement and McLaren's books were resonating with my heart long before I even heard about people emerging. :) But I just can't get my mind around some of their songs that have been posted in various threads on NazNet.

That's not a criticism. I simply see words like "I am an Atheist" as more of a thought provoking poem than something that should be set to music and sung by a group of people.

But I guess the nice thing about the emergent church is that there would be room for people who feel the same way I do right? Or would I have to give up great hymns like "My Jesus I Love Thee" and worship songs like "Shout to the Lord"?

I agree too Barbara, I liked the words to this song because they made me think, but I don't think we would be able to sing it at our church...and I'm okay with that, baby steps...but I love that it caused me to think and made me realize that maybe that's how my daughter's pre-school teacher, who is an Atheist, feels. Maybe I've contributed to her feeling like she can't believe in God because of the God that I've helped portray...Its nice to be stretched...

[Meghan Schoonover]

There were very few of the songs I felt would be ok for our congregation (I'm the music person) but I personally enjoyed them and was stretched by them. I think in certain settings/groups they'd be great but several were very provocative and I knew of people from our district who walked out b/c of them. Like I said before, I was familiar with the Canticle of the Sun (which McLaren based his "sister moon" song off of, using St. Francis' language) and it was *still* uncomfortable for me b/c of the "new agey" feel of it.

Nevermind I couldn't pull off the spoken-word stuff, lol!

It's interesting to see this a couple months after I experienced it and to think through it again...I think I'd get so much more out of it now that I've had a chance for it to percolate.

<thinking>

[David Pettigrew]

I think in certain settings/groups they'd be great but several were very provocative and I knew of people from our district who walked out b/c of them.

This will come across as condescending, and possibly insulting. That is not my intent, fwiw.

I think there is definitely a "pearls before swine" element in presenting a conference like "Everything Must Change" in a Nazarene setting, like the NNU Wesley Conference.

Many times throughout the conference I cringed at statements, phrases, and song lyrics, not because they were controversial, but because of how I knew they would be taken by folks who haven't been on a journey of processing postmodern thought. I'm talking about folks who normally would never attend a conference like EMC, but were there because it was a "Nazarene" event.

I knew if the ideas were stretching those of us who hang out here, they were probably breaking some others. It does not surprise me at all some stood and walked out.

One amazing thing about the Holy Spirit is He can take an idea that initially infuriates us, plant a seed, and transform our way of thinking. It's happened to me many times. I'm willing to trust the angry conference attenders to the refining fire of God.

[David Pettigrew]

I hope everyone understands I'm not calling anyone a pig. Not the best choice of words, perhaps (hey, Jesus said 'em - then again, I'm not Him.) I was referring to discussing truth at a level that hurts the hearer rather than helps them.

[Christa Woodward]

This will come across as condescending, and possibly insulting. That is not my intent, fwiw.

I think there is definitely a "pearls before swine" element in presenting a conference like "Everything Must Change" in a Nazarene setting, like the NNU Wesley Conference.

Many times throughout the conference I cringed at statements, phrases, and song lyrics, not because they were controversial, but because of how I knew they would be taken by folks who haven't been on a journey of processing postmodern thought. I'm talking about folks who normally would never attend a conference like EMC, but were there because it was a "Nazarene" event.

I knew if the ideas were stretching those of us who hang out here, they were probably breaking some others. It does not surprise me at all some stood and walked out.

One amazing thing about the Holy Spirit is He can take an idea that initially infuriates us, plant a seed, and transform our way of thinking. It's happened to me many times. I'm willing to trust the angry conference attenders to the refining fire of God.

I don't mind people who are legitimately at the conference getting offended, etc. But I heard from someone that there were people at the NNU conference as "plants" that took notes, etc for the purpose of writing letters afterwords. (My dad received a few from people that he didn't even know, I guess they were just sending them to random DS's). That bothers me and seems disingenuous at best...to be at an event soley for the purpose of trying to "catch" someone saying something they think is heretical - I don't get it...

[Billy Cox]

I knew if the ideas were stretching those of us who hang out here, they were probably breaking some others. It does not surprise me at all some stood and walked out.


I can relate. I just finished reading 'A New Kind of Christian' by Brian McLaren, and I have as yet to risk talking about the book at my local church. Such is the plight of one with the curiosity of a pioneer and the self-doubt of a Moses.

Thank God for NazNet and Facebook.

[Hans Deventer]

I guess they were just sending them to random DS's). That bothers me and seems disingenuous at best...to be at an event soley for the purpose of trying to "catch" someone saying something they think is heretical - I don't get it...

It's sick, just sick. You know, I used to have a dream of teaching at a college. Never worked out because I don't have the education to do so (long story), but with the years and more and more of these instances, I'm starting to wonder if I haven't been saved by God rather than hindered. "Let me fall into the hands of the LORD, for his mercy is very great; but do not let me fall into the hands of men". David was a wise man.

[Barbara Moulton]

Could you explain the reason for the title of the conference itself? EVERYTHING must change? When I read that I was surprised because it seemed like such an absolute statement for a conference geared to ministry in a post modern world.

[Hans Deventer]

Could you explain the reason for the title of the conference itself? EVERYTHING must change? When I read that I was surprised because it seemed like such an absolute statement for a conference geared to ministry in a post modern world.

Yes. The idea as McLaren presents in the book, is that the ideology of our world, the system that permeates everything we do, is a suicidal system. And has been for many ages. Totally contrary to that system is the kingdom of God, which strikes at the root of everything, really. That is why "everything" must change.

[Ryan Scott]

But I heard from someone that there were people at the NNU conference as "plants" that took notes, etc for the purpose of writing letters afterwords.


I don't know if there were intentional "plants," but my Dad, an NNU Trustee, got about 15 letters from people, all complaining about the same quote Brian said in one of the Q&A sessions.

I get the impression that these sorts of letters are pretty common. I'm not sure how seriously he takes them; sort of like the boy crying wolf; speaking up to much can drown out your own voice.

[Hans Deventer]

I don't know if there were intentional "plants," but my Dad, an NNU Trustee, got about 15 letters from people, all complaining about the same quote Brian said in one of the Q&A sessions.

I wonder, what do people come to a theological conference for if all they want to hear is stuff they already agree with? There are so many ways of spending your money better than to go to a conference with that aim.

My goal was to learn something, to be challenged in my thinking. Well, I was, so no complaints from me. I guess I would have complained if the 15 from above had no reason to do so :basic05

[Christa Woodward]

I don't know if there were intentional "plants," but my Dad, an NNU Trustee, got about 15 letters from people, all complaining about the same quote Brian said in one of the Q&A sessions.

I get the impression that these sorts of letters are pretty common. I'm not sure how seriously he takes them; sort of like the boy crying wolf; speaking up to much can drown out your own voice.

Yeah, the person we talked to is a trustee also and he seemed to feel it might have been intentional...my dad tossed the letters he received because they were all from people he didn't even know, he's a trustee at SNU so different region, who knows...but I'm just cynical enough to believe anything is possible - we've had people with tape recorders in classrooms, pastors starting letter writing campaigns against professors...

Can't we all just get along? :)

[David Pettigrew]

Yeah, the person we talked to is a trustee also and he seemed to feel it might have been intentional...my dad tossed the letters he received because they were all from people he didn't even know, he's a trustee at SNU so different region, who knows...but I'm just cynical enough to believe anything is possible - we've had people with tape recorders in classrooms, pastors starting letter writing campaigns against professors...

Can't we all just get along? :)

Christa, who is your dad? Just playing Nazarene connect the dots with you to see how many degrees of separation are between us!

[Ken Pell]

Okay ... I'm stupid enough to go where angels fear to tread.
http://thegrandnarrative.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/can_of_worms.jpg

Thoughts about the EMC conversation at NNU:

1. Hmmmmmm ... spies and plants at the EMC conversation huh? Is something going on at NNU that needs to be investigated?

2. Why are we speaking in cloaked language? What exactly are the accusations against NNU that are being floated around? Somebody (s) here knows.

3. Why do we need "spies and plants"? Last I checked it was a denominational school. It seems to me that whatever they do should be open to full disclosure to those within the denomination (not just the region) since we all have a vested interest. That also means that those doing the "spying" should have to come forward and identify themselves to be taken seriously. No place for secrecy or anonymity for anyone as far as I am concerned.

There are plenty of people here who are closely identified with our schools and NNU in particular. I'd certainly be interested in their perspective on this.

BTW -- I give NNU all the benefit of the doubt. The onus is on the accusers.

[David Pettigrew]

Okay ... I'm stupid enough to go where angels fear to tread.
http://thegrandnarrative.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/can_of_worms.jpg

Thoughts about the EMC conversation at NNU:

1. Hmmmmmm ... spies and plants at the EMC conversation huh? Is something going on at NNU that needs to be investigated?

2. Why are we speaking in cloaked language? What exactly are the accusations against NNU that are being floated around? Somebody (s) here knows.

3. Why do we need "spies and plants"? Last I checked it was a denominational school. It seems to me that whatever they do should be open to full disclosure to those within the denomination (not just the region) since we all have a vested interest. That also means that those doing the "spying" should have to come forward and identify themselves to be taken seriously. No place for secrecy or anonymity for anyone as far as I am concerned.

There are plenty of people here who are closely identified with our schools and NNU in particular. I'd certainly be interested in their perspective on this.

BTW -- I give NNU all the benefit of the doubt. The onus is on the accusers.

So far, all that has been said is that someone heard there were plants at the conference. I choose not to believe this is true until it is backed up with facts.

We do know for a fact that a letter writing campaign was launched as a result of the NNU conference. Brian Mclaren is a controversial figure. The NNU religion department made a decision to engage in conversation rather than avoid controversy. I really don't think there has been anything secret or underhanded on either side of the issue. There are just two sides to the issue.

The religion departments of our liberal arts universities are on the front lines of the theological identity crisis in the Church of the Nazarene, probably even more so than NTS. This is just another episode in said crisis.

[Gary Creely]

I would have been very interested to check that conference out ! I have however been finding myself disconnecting from McLaren message. In the new kind of Christian days I ate up every thing the guy said, but these days I really feel like he has evolved into a garden variety UCC liberal, with a touch of zen, and a dash of earth day.

Don't get me wrong, I am really into the emerging church dialog, in fact I have even attended Brian's church (when he was still the Pastor) and had a conversation with him after the service. This is in addition to reading many of his books.

I am not so concerned with things like his refusal to take a stand on homosexuality, I actually rather enjoy the banter that taking no position creates, but I am a little more troubled by some of what he is saying about why Jesus came to earth, and what his message was. With-out going way in depth, I would say that these days I am starting to distance myself from his positions. I would consider myself as some what of a liberal Nazarene (still with-in them manuals good graces), so it not like I am haven't given him a fair shake.

Further, I once thought he was a good barometer of the direction of the emerging church movement (not to be mistaken for emergent), but these days I feel like he has kinda gone off in his own direction. His basic premise these days is that "the man" (imperial western framework) is one of the main issues that the church needs to address, and I am just not buying.

Thats just my opinion

[Ken Pell]

So far, all that has been said is that someone heard there were plants at the conference. I choose not to believe this is true until it is backed up with facts.

We do know for a fact that a letter writing campaign was launched as a result of the NNU conference. Brian Mclaren is a controversial figure. The NNU religion department made a decision to engage in conversation rather than avoid controversy. I really don't think there has been anything secret or underhanded on either side of the issue. There are just two sides to the issue.

The religion departments of our liberal arts universities are on the front lines of the theological identity crisis in the Church of the Nazarene, probably even more so than NTS. This is just another episode in said crisis.

That's what I suspected.

I am going to assume that all the letters received by DS's were signed.

[David Pettigrew]

I am going to assume that all the letters received by DS's were signed.

:laughing:laughing:laughing

You made a funny!

Edited to add: I'm sure they were all signed. Just not with actual names. Probably more often with "A concerned servant of the Lord".

[Hans Deventer]

I am a little more troubled by some of what he is saying about why Jesus came to earth, and what his message was.

OK, so what would be your take on that question? (A rather important one, I might add.)

[David Pettigrew]

I would have been very interested to check that conference out ! I have however been finding myself disconnecting from McLaren message. In the new kind of Christian days I ate up every thing the guy said, but these days I really feel like he has evolved into a garden variety UCC liberal, with a touch of zen, and a dash of earth day.

Don't get me wrong, I am really into the emerging church dialog, in fact I have even attended Brian's church (when he was still the Pastor) and had a conversation with him after the service. This is in addition to reading many of his books.

I am not so concerned with things like his refusal to take a stand on homosexuality, I actually rather enjoy the banter that taking no position creates, but I am a little more troubled by some of what he is saying about why Jesus came to earth, and what his message was. With-out going way in depth, I would say that these days I am starting to distance myself from his positions. I would consider myself as some what of a liberal Nazarene (still with-in them manuals good graces), so it not like I am haven't given him a fair shake.

Further, I once thought he was a good barometer of the direction of the emerging church movement (not to be mistaken for emergent), but these days I feel like he has kinda gone off in his own direction. His basic premise these days is that "the man" (imperial western framework) is one of the main issues that the church needs to address, and I am just not buying.

Thats just my opinion

I don't really get what you are getting from Mclaren, though I certainly haven't read everything he's written.

Mclaren seems to be saying that Jesus is the answer, but the Church has just been asking the wrong question. On that, I agree with him.

[Gary Creely]

Hans,

Is that a trick question?

David,

I have found that controversy over Mclaren often comes more from what he does not say, and what he insinuates than what he does say. For instance I get the sense that a. he does not believe in a literal heaven, and starts to deconstruct substitutionary atonement. Check it out:

http://www.enteuxis.org/leifh/bleedingpurple21b.mp3

Don't get me wrong I like lots of what Mclaren says, but I am just saying I am sensing he is moving away from orthodoxy.

[Billy Cox]

a. he does not believe in a literal heaven, and starts to deconstruct substitutionary atonement.

...

Don't get me wrong I like lots of what Mclaren says, but I am just saying I am sensing he is moving away from orthodoxy.

I certainly haven't read everything written by McLaren, but I have gotten the impression that he has in mind a heaven-on-earth scenario - and that idea jives pretty well with the ending of the book of Revelation.

I was not aware that a literal heaven and/or hell are pillars of orthodoxy. They are more like wallpaper.

Just to clarify, 'deconstruct' is not the same as 'destruct' or (in fundamentalist jargon) 'explain away'. As for the substitutionary theory of atonement, this shouldn't be a big issue for Wesleyans, should it? (except of course for those Nazarenes who invoke Wesley but are really reformed-theology fundamentalists through and through)

[Hans Deventer]

Hans,

Is that a trick question?

A trick question? I'm not quite sure where that idea comes from? I don't have the slightest intention of tricking anyone.

starts to deconstruct substitutionary atonement. Check it out:

http://www.enteuxis.org/leifh/bleedingpurple21b.mp3

Don't get me wrong I like lots of what Mclaren says, but I am just saying I am sensing he is moving away from orthodoxy.

Mmm, I think "orthodoxy" has taken in way too much legal stuff regarding the atonement. I'd rather see a more Biblical approach, like Larry Shelton takes in Cross & Covenant (http://www.amazon.com/Cross-Covenant-Shelton-Larry/dp/1932805672).

I heard nothing in the interview that would indicate he's moving away from orthodoxy, but it is hard to quote from an mp3. Thanks for the link though, Gary. I enjoyed listening to it.

[Meghan Schoonover]

I have found that controversy over Mclaren often comes more from what he does not say, and what he insinuates than what he does say. For instance I get the sense that a. he does not believe in a literal heaven, and starts to deconstruct substitutionary atonement. Check it out:

http://www.enteuxis.org/leifh/bleedingpurple21b.mp3

Don't get me wrong I like lots of what Mclaren says, but I am just saying I am sensing he is moving away from orthodoxy.

His books The Story We Find Ourselves In (http://www.amazon.com/Story-Find-Ourselves-Adventures-Leadership/dp/0470248416/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1209579774&sr=8-4) and The Last Word and the Word After That (http://www.amazon.com/Last-Word-after-That-Christianity/dp/0470248424/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1209579774&sr=8-6) go into detail about those two beliefs you highlighted. I would agree his view of Heaven is non-traditional, as are his views of hell. And disagreeing with the penal substitution view is far from new since Christus Victor was the dominant view for at least 1000 years after Christ.

I don't think those things make him outside of orthodoxy. <shrug> Plenty of Christians disagree with the traditional heaven/hell view and the penal substitution theory.

[Gary Creely]

I did not label literal heaven a "pillar" of orthodoxy, nor did I say Mclaren lacks orthodoxy, I simply say he is moving away from it, and he is.

Check out that mp3 I referenced and see if you think Mclaren towing a line that Wesleyan's, Baptists, or Catholics would call "orthodox".

[Christa Woodward]

Christa, who is your dad? Just playing Nazarene connect the dots with you to see how many degrees of separation are between us!

David...I'm a Daniels by birth, my dad is Tharon so, Scott is my brother...but don't expect the same level of intellect from me as my brother! Or the same amount of common sense - I tend to say too much sometimes...:)

[David Pettigrew]

David...I'm a Daniels by birth, my dad is Tharon so, Scott is my brother...but don't expect the same level of intellect from me as my brother! Or the same amount of common sense - I tend to say too much sometimes...:)

Ahh...the truth comes out! I could see why you'd want to keep something like that under wraps. From now on we'll just refer to you as Scott Jr.

[Christa Woodward]

That's what I suspected.

I am going to assume that all the letters received by DS's were signed.

Sorry, I think I'm the one who originally opened the can...I didn't mean to insinuate that any letters I heard about were unsigned, they were just from people my dad didn't know, which was interesting since he served in the NW region for 20 years...I really didn't mean to open the can, I just get really saddened by this kind of "stuff" that I hear. I shouldn't have added this to the conversation, I apologize for taking the thread in this direction....Christa

[Christa Woodward]

Ahh...the truth comes out! I could see why you'd want to keep something like that under wraps. From now on we'll just refer to you as Scott Jr.

I'm fine with being identified with Scott...in fact I drop his name whenever possible! :) I can't guarantee that he would feel the same about me, since as said before...I have a harder time keeping my mouth shut, as evidenced in this thread...

[David Pettigrew]

I'm fine with being identified with Scott...in fact I drop his name whenever possible! :) I can't guarantee that he would feel the same about me, since as said before...I have a harder time keeping my mouth shut, as evidenced in this thread...

Well, I figure you will have lots of family that will be voting delegates at the 2009 GA, so I suppose I better treat you right.

Seriously, I've served on a council with your dad, and always thought he was a hoot. Scott truly is one of the gifted thinkers in the Church of the Nazarene.

[Billy Cox]

I did not label literal heaven a "pillar" of orthodoxy, nor did I say Mclaren lacks orthodoxy, I simply say he is moving away from it, and he is.

Check out that mp3 I referenced and see if you think Mclaren towing a line that Wesleyan's, Baptists, or Catholics would call "orthodox".

Perhaps McLaren is just reinterpreting orthodoxy in hopes of making it more representative of the Gospel and less representative of the Age of Enlightenment.

It is no accident that one his books is entitled 'A Generous Orthodoxy.' Those most likely to attack McLaren are those for whom the terms 'generous' and 'orthodoxy' are polar opposites.

I'll listen to the mp3.

[Ryan Scott]

I appreciated his statement regarding atonement theory in The Last Word and The Word After That. He said that none of the theories are appropriate on their own, but also that none of them can be thrown out. They are all valid angles by which people attempt to describe something beyond our comprehension. He even says we will do well to hold to all of them, so long as we don't build our theology on any single theory.

[Gary Creely]

Perhaps McLaren is just reinterpreting orthodoxy in hopes of making it more representative of the Gospel and less representative of the Age of Enlightenment.

It is no accident that one his books is entitled 'A Generous Orthodoxy.' Those most likely to attack McLaren are those for whom the terms 'generous' and 'orthodoxy' are polar opposites.

I'll listen to the mp3.


I have defended Mclaren more than once, I have had in person conversations with, I was reading his stuff before it was the vogue thing to do, and I like his approach in general. I am however finding each book tends to push the envelope in a traditionally liberal way rather than an emerging way.

[Gary Creely]

I appreciated his statement regarding atonement theory in The Last Word and The Word After That. He said that none of the theories are appropriate on their own, but also that none of them can be thrown out. They are all valid angles by which people attempt to describe something beyond our comprehension. He even says we will do well to hold to all of them, so long as we don't build our theology on any single theory.

That was 3 or 4 books ago, and at that point I really didn't have any problem with that book.

[Billy Cox]

I have defended Mclaren more than once, I have had in person conversations with, I was reading his stuff before it was the vogue thing to do, and I like his approach in general. I am however finding each book tends to push the envelope in a traditionally liberal way rather than an emerging way.

Fair enough. I have only read 'A New Kind of Christian'.

[Hans Deventer]

McLarin, may be a wonderful person, in some ways, but he is hurting some young Christians, and ministers.

That's the kind of attitude that sends letters to our universities, objecting them for learning people to think. It's all so confusing. Yeah, "welcome to the real world". If you think the world isn't confusing, you've never been doing much thinking at all.

Obama may be a wonderful person in some ways, but, if he gets elected as president, in my opinion, we are more than one step nearer to Armegeddon.

Interesting. That's exactly what I think when McCain gets elected.

[Robert McLemore]

hans, thanks for link to the song. was differant than the ones we sing in church.

[David Pettigrew]

I thought this article from the real live preacher blog spoke to the postmodern discussion, and figured this was as good a place to post it as any.

http://www.reallivepreacher.com/rlparchive/node/1196

[Barbara Moulton]

I’ve been reading through this thread with interest. Please understand that I have never been to an emergent church worship service nor a conference. Because I like McLaren, I was reading all these discussions as someone who was very motivated to embrace the emergent church movement. Yet some things are not sitting right with me. I write this with the disclaimer that this is what I am "hearing" and "perceiving". These are my impressions and I am completely prepared to be shown how my impressions are wrong.

~I was reading McLaren long before I heard him mentioned on this forum. He was on my Christmas list for several years in a row. :) I remember one of my “aha” moments was McLaren's statement that when Jesus said he was “the way”, He didn’t mean He was “in the way”. Good stuff! But I am beginning to feel that I might not be at home in the emergent church movement.

~What I loved about McLaren was starting to understand the modern world which had shaped me. What I am beginning to hear is that everything that shaped me was wrong.

~What I loved was when I discovered that my post modern leanings were not wrong, even though they were different than my modern upbringing. What I am now hearing is that I have to discard much about that upbringing. (Even though it shaped the person I am in many ways)

~The dismissal of “me” songs can come across as judgemental itself which is an attitude that emergents criticize in others. I don’t like many of those songs either but in my spiritual walk some of them have touched my heart in a moment when I needed them. God used them in my life. Can the emergent church accept that God can use "me songs"?

~Aside: I think that it is ironic that the emergent feels it has escaped “me” centred songs. Look at the first word in every line in the song that has been quoted in this thread. :)

~Speaking of that song, while it might have provocative words, it does not paint a picture of the God I was taught to worship. I have never believed in (nor did my modern parents and grandparents) a god of violence, forced conversion and greediness. I am concerned that some stereotypes about the church of the 20th century are beginning to be treated as absolute reality by the emergent church. Those familiar with the term "straw man" will understand my problem with it.

~While I am prepared to start asking new questions about God, I am not prepared to accept that the Church has been asking wrong questions for most of its history.

~I fear that there might a growing intolerance for what has gone before in the Christian Church. The blog that David referenced reminds us that you can’t force people to change their ways of expressing faith and devotion to the Creator. When you entitle a conference “Everything Must Change” it seems that you are communicating the opposite.

I close with the chorus of a song that I sang in the church I was raised with.

Except I am moved with compassion
How dwelleth Thy spirit in me?
In word and in deed, Burning love is my need.
I know I shall find this in Thee.

This was written by a man who was born in 1886. Emergents aren’t the only ones to get that “we are nothing without love."

I am not writing with anger or criticism...really more of a concern. I am sympathetic to the emergent movement and, indeed, was prepared to embrace it. But some things I am finding unsettling.

Can we dialogue? I am truly prepared to be educated :)

[David Pettigrew]

I’ve been reading through this thread with interest. Please understand that I have never been to an emergent church worship service nor a conference. Because I like McLaren, I was reading all these discussions as someone who was very motivated to embrace the emergent church movement. Yet some things are not sitting right with me. I write this with the disclaimer that this is what I am "hearing" and "perceiving". These are my impressions and I am completely prepared to be shown how my impressions are wrong.

~I was reading McLaren long before I heard him mentioned on this forum. He was on my Christmas list for several years in a row. :) I remember one of my “aha” moments was McLaren's statement that when Jesus said he was “the way”, He didn’t mean He was “in the way”. Good stuff! But I am beginning to feel that I might not be at home in the emergent church movement.

~What I loved about McLaren was starting to understand the modern world which had shaped me. What I am beginning to hear is that everything that shaped me was wrong.

~What I loved was when I discovered that my post modern leanings were not wrong, even though they were different than my modern upbringing. What I am now hearing is that I have to discard much about that upbringing. (Even though it shaped the person I am in many ways)

~The dismissal of “me” songs can come across as judgemental itself which is an attitude that emergents criticize in others. I don’t like many of those songs either but in my spiritual walk some of them have touched my heart in a moment when I needed them. God used them in my life. Can the emergent church accept that God can use "me songs"?

~Aside: I think that it is ironic that the emergent feels it has escaped “me” centred songs. Look at the first word in every line in the song that has been quoted in this thread. :)

~Speaking of that song, while it might have provocative words, it does not paint a picture of the God I was taught to worship. I have never believed in (nor did my modern parents and grandparents) a god of violence, forced conversion and greediness. I am concerned that some stereotypes about the church of the 20th century are beginning to be treated as absolute reality by the emergent church. Those familiar with the term "straw man" will understand my problem with it.

~While I am prepared to start asking new questions about God, I am not prepared to accept that the Church has been asking wrong questions for most of its history.

~I fear that there might a growing intolerance for what has gone before in the Christian Church. The blog that David referenced reminds us that you can’t force people to change their ways of expressing faith and devotion to the Creator. When you entitle a conference “Everything Must Change” it seems that you are communicating the opposite.

I close with the chorus of a song that I sang in the church I was raised with.

Except I am moved with compassion
How dwelleth Thy spirit in me?
In word and in deed, Burning love is my need.
I know I shall find this in Thee.

This was written by a man who was born in 1886. Emergents aren’t the only ones to get that “we are nothing without love."

I am not writing with anger or criticism...really more of a concern. I am sympathetic to the emergent movement and, indeed, was prepared to embrace it. But some things I am finding unsettling.

Can we dialogue? I am truly prepared to be educated :)

You bring up an interesting point. As usual, I have a couple of metaphors.

1) The last one to know about the water is the fish.
2) No matter how tall a tree grows, it can't escape its roots.

Does that clear it up for everyone? :q)

Anyone involved in the emergent/emerging discussion is doing so through modernism. We are the products of our modern world. We'll have to get another two or three generations under our belt before we can even truly understand what the emergent church even is. We are still very much emerging.

Hence, emergents value tolerance, yet our modern "roots" or "ocean" bend us towards intolerance of those who don't embrace us, and blind us to the fact that we are intolerant! When I say "we", I mean "David Alan Pettigrew."

As far as the "me" songs go - not singing them is not an emergent idea. "Me" songs are a product of the revivalism/campmeeting movement, which gave us songs of testimony, and was built upon by the praise and worship movement. Until 120 years ago or so, all sacred music was "we" or "He".

[Barbara Moulton]

You bring up an interesting point. As usual, I have a couple of metaphors.

1) The last one to know about the water is the fish.
2) No matter how tall a tree grows, it can't escape its roots.

Does that clear it up for everyone? :q)

Anyone involved in the emergent/emerging discussion is doing so through modernism. We are the products of our modern world. We'll have to get another two or three generations under our belt before we can even truly understand what the emergent church even is. We are still very much emerging.

Hence, emergents value tolerance, yet our modern "roots" or "ocean" bend us towards intolerance of those who don't embrace us, and blind us to the fact that we are intolerant! When I say "we", I mean "David Alan Pettigrew."

As far as the "me" songs go - not singing them is not an emergent idea. "Me" songs are a product of the revivalism/campmeeting movement, which gave us songs of testimony, and was built upon by the praise and worship movement. Until 120 years ago or so, all sacred music was "we" or "He".

Thanks for responding. There were two mentions of "me centred" songs in this thread (Heidi I think said I would have to give them up) which is why I thought this was an emergent issue.

[Hans Deventer]

~What I loved about McLaren was starting to understand the modern world which had shaped me. What I am beginning to hear is that everything that shaped me was wrong.

That's interesting. I haven't heard that yet. Perhaps I need to listen better.

~The dismissal of “me” songs can come across as judgemental itself which is an attitude that emergents criticize in others. I don’t like many of those songs either but in my spiritual walk some of them have touched my heart in a moment when I needed them. God used them in my life. Can the emergent church accept that God can use "me songs"?

I don't know how could speak for the EC to answer that question. I can speak for myself as I was one who wrote about "me" songs. Yes, I'm willing to go on record that I much prefer songs like these:

Majesty and power, immensity and might
Tenderness and nearness, mystery and light
Just and full of mercy, high and reaching low
Forgiving and so holy, beyond all we can know
O Lord, how great you are! O Lord, how great you are!

Maker of the mountains, tender of the trees
Sender of the rainfall, calmer of the seas
Singer of the woodlands, Silence of the sky,
I look up and wonder: Lord, who am I?
O Lord, how great you are! O Lord, how great you are!

Healer of the broken, champion of the poor
Turner of the tables, Knocking on the door
Dying on a cross, bearing all our sin,
Rising up victorious, with us and within.
O Lord, how great you are! O Lord, how great you are!

But that's just me and I'll have to live with the fact that most of the songs in my local church are in the "I, Me, Mine" vein.

~Aside: I think that it is ironic that the emergent feels it has escaped “me” centred songs. Look at the first word in every line in the song that has been quoted in this thread. :)

Oh sure, this is no great example. There's much work to be done.

~Speaking of that song, while it might have provocative words, it does not paint a picture of the God I was taught to worship. I have never believed in (nor did my modern parents and grandparents) a god of violence, forced conversion and greediness. I am concerned that some stereotypes about the church of the 20th century are beginning to be treated as absolute reality by the emergent church. Those familiar with the term "straw man" will understand my problem with it.

I think you'd need to read the book. There's something more going on than a straw man argument. That does not do it justice. The book talks about a global level, not a personal one.


~While I am prepared to start asking new questions about God, I am not prepared to accept that the Church has been asking wrong questions for most of its history.

Yes, I know. That is one of the points where we differ. When I look at what the church has done in the last 1600 years, I'm quite convinced we messed up big time, so I'm not too unwilling to consider the idea that we may have been asking the wrong question. I wish that was our only problem.

~I fear that there might a growing intolerance for what has gone before in the Christian Church. The blog that David referenced reminds us that you can’t force people to change their ways of expressing faith and devotion to the Creator. When you entitle a conference “Everything Must Change” it seems that you are communicating the opposite.

Barbara, you are pulling conclusions from too few data. That won't result in good conclusions.

[Barbara Moulton]

Barbara, you are pulling conclusions from too few data. That won't result in good conclusions.

No Hans, I wasn't pulling any conclusions. I freely admitted at the beginning of my post that I was posting based on limited knowledge and I was very careful to say that this was what I was "perceiving" but that I wanted to learn.

My post was very subjective. This was deliberate. Hence all the "this is what I am hearing" and "this is what I think" and "it seems".

I think it would be helpful for those who attended the conference to hear from sympathetic friends who are struggling to understand what is being reported. I am not even close to making conclusions yet.

Blessings,
Barbara

[Heidi Anderson]

(Heidi I think said I would have to give them up) which is why I thought this was an emergent issue.

Heidi rarely knows what she's talking about...and in this case I was mostly kidding, I think! :)

[Hans Deventer]

No Hans, I wasn't pulling any conclusions.

Ok, replace "conclusions" with "impressions". Same story.

[Barbara Moulton]

Ok, replace "conclusions" with "impressions". Same story.

I am not sure what to do with this response. Did you mean to sound dismissive? I truly was looking for understanding and I thought a way to start would be to describe what I was "hearing".

Oh well...doesn't matter. :)

Blessings,
Barbara

[Hans Deventer]

I am not sure what to do with this response. Did you mean to sound dismissive?

No. But I did get a little frustrated. It reminds me of a discussion I had the other day with a Dutch lady who wanted to know about the Nazarene view on women in ministry. I gave a broad outline but she disagreed because the Bible "obviously" taught something different. Then I referred her to a good book in Dutch on the subject. Some 500 pages, quite thorough. But she wanted the whole story from me and if I could not deliver, I was obviously wrong. You'll understand that discussion went nowhere and I even got to the point that I simply deleted her last message before reading it.

I am NOT comparing you with that lady, but I'm telling you this because this background may explain why I feel somewhat frustrated because there simply is no way I can capture a whole book and a conference in a few sentences. If you're serious about this, please read the book and and then you are very welcome to reach whatever conclusions or impressions you reach. I'll even send it to you if you want.

[Barbara Moulton]

No. But I did get a little frustrated. It reminds me of a discussion I had the other day with a Dutch lady who wanted to know about the Nazarene view on women in ministry. I gave a broad outline but she disagreed because the Bible "obviously" taught something different. Then I referred her to a good book in Dutch on the subject. Some 500 pages, quite thorough. But she wanted the whole story from me and if I could not deliver, I was obviously wrong. You'll understand that discussion went nowhere and I even got to the point that I simply deleted her last message before reading it.

I am NOT comparing you with that lady, but I'm telling you this because this background may explain why I feel somewhat frustrated because there simply is no way I can capture a whole book and a conference in a few sentences. If you're serious about this, please read the book and and then you are very welcome to reach whatever conclusions or impressions you reach. I'll even send it to you if you want.

No, I am not like that lady. I didn't want the whole story from you and I didn't expect you to give me all the answers in a few sentences. And while it sounds like she was coming with her mind already made up, I was coming with a mind that is sympathetic to the emergent church.

Your answer seems to imply that I can't enter a discussion unless I have read the book. Since that is not on my agenda for awhile (got some busy months coming up) I'll stop asking questions.

Blessings,
Barbara

[Hans Deventer]

Your answer seems to imply that I can't enter a discussion unless I have read the book. Since that is not on my agenda for awhile (got some busy months coming up) I'll stop asking questions.


Gracious, Barbara, did I say that? You did not understand my reaction and I was trying to explain why I replied as I did. Who am I to tell you that you cannot ask questions? I have no authority whatsoever that you'd need to listen to me, even if I did say that.

I've merely been explaining that I can't answer all those questions and that I think the best way to get them answered is to read the book. That is all.

[Ryan Scott]

~What I loved about McLaren was starting to understand the modern world which had shaped me. What I am beginning to hear is that everything that shaped me was wrong.

There are a lot of people out there using the term "emergent" to justify their frustration with things. I don't think this is an appropriate reaction. From everything I know and have heard from McLaren and others close to him is that these ideas were an attempt to answer questions that their shaping tradition could not answer, an attempt to find their way in a new world. We may have to question some of the things from our past, but for the most part, I believe we should continue to affirm those things which continue to ring true in our world.

~The dismissal of “me” songs can come across as judgemental itself which is an attitude that emergents criticize in others. I don’t like many of those songs either but in my spiritual walk some of them have touched my heart in a moment when I needed them. God used them in my life. Can the emergent church accept that God can use "me songs"?

~Aside: I think that it is ironic that the emergent feels it has escaped “me” centred songs. Look at the first word in every line in the song that has been quoted in this thread.

I think there needs to be distinction between our use of pronouns and what we mean by "me" songs. I believe there are valid, personal songs, which are centered on the perspective of the singer. However, there are an awful lot of songs out there with the lyrical purpose of magnifying the individuals. It's hard to say that we can exclude songs with "me" or "I" in them when so many of the Psalms are constructed that way. We do have a responsibility to look past catchy music and emotional lyrics and discern what purpose each song serves. There is also the danger of unhealthily reliving those times when God came to us in our hour of need to a point we forget that our lives involve more than just those moments. Not that I'm accusing you of any of this, just that they are dangers which are rarely named.

~Speaking of that song, while it might have provocative words, it does not paint a picture of the God I was taught to worship. I have never believed in (nor did my modern parents and grandparents) a god of violence, forced conversion and greediness. I am concerned that some stereotypes about the church of the 20th century are beginning to be treated as absolute reality by the emergent church. Those familiar with the term "straw man" will understand my problem with it.

In the context of the conference, I did not perceive the Church to be the referent of those words. I never even had that thought. I saw it as an affirmation of what we do believe (the reason I made a post mentioning that the chorus is far more prominent than any of the verses). I saw the verses directed at anyone who was using the name of God to advocate for those beliefs.

The wording of this section of your post also gave me pause to grieve. So many people (again many of them claiming to be 'emergent') have made this whole conversation into an us vs them discussion. The real intention is not to denigrate the 20th century (or any century) Church, but to affirm that things must change going forward. The world in which we find ourselves is not the same as it was in 1920 and cannot be tackled in the same paradigms.

~I fear that there might a growing intolerance for what has gone before in the Christian Church. The blog that David referenced reminds us that you can’t force people to change their ways of expressing faith and devotion to the Creator. When you entitle a conference “Everything Must Change” it seems that you are communicating the opposite.

The title of the conference is a bit misleading. It can be taken as a command rather than as a statement of fact. Both implications are inherent in the content of the conference and of the book (which I'd encourage everyone to read). What I took from the conference is not that our ways of expressing faith have been wrong, but that they've been too narrowly focused. It's not so much that things must change and be different from what they were, but that things must change and be greater and broader in scope than what they've been.

[Barbara Moulton]

What I took from the conference is not that our ways of expressing faith have been wrong, but that they've been too narrowly focused. It's not so much that things must change and be different from what they were, but that things must change and be greater and broader in scope than what they've been.

If that's what you took from the conference I can YES!

I think I can articulate now what I was trying say (and obviously not very well).

What I first heard from McLaren et al, was that we needed to comprehend how the modern world had conditioned us in our understanding of what it means to be Christian. That as we were now in a post modern world, it was important to be willing to adjust our way of communicating the gospel and living the Christian life. What I read was not that modern was "bad" and postmodern was "good". In fact McLaren implied at one point that, in a few hundred years we will see the flaws of post modernity as well. It was simply that the Church had to understand that modern ways of expressing faith in Christ would not connect with a post modern world and that those of us who felt a disconnect with the church today were not wrong, we were just different then those raised in another time.

I was good with this. And relieved to understand why some of my upbringing did not sit well with me. It was not that my parents were wrong...it was that they were expressing their faith in a different era. I could look for new ways of living and expressing my faith in this one. But I sure didn't get that everything I was raised with was wrong.

Ryan, your words reassure me that this is what the conference was about. I thank you for that.

Because my intent in coming into this thread was not to challenge the conference but to say.

"This is how some of what is being reported from the conference is coming across."

What I was beginning to hear was that all that had gone on before was bad. (with songs like "I am an Atheist" used to prove how bad it was. :)

Those types of absolute statements do not sit well with me. And I know that they really wouldn't sit well with those who don't come from the place of sympathy I came from. And you need to be able to respond to them with grace.

Blessings,
Barbara